2022 Offseason

[phoenix66]

24 minutes ago, cross16 said:

It’s been pretty much unanimously reported now that Stone was only willing to sign long term in Vegas. Stone was only going to be a rental for the flames. 

Agreed there . But I'm not sure even if we could have signed him that vakimaki still wasn't untouchable.  IIRC he was a major ask from new jersey in the attempt to get Taylor Hall and wouldn't put him in that deal either 

[cross16]

9 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Agreed there . But I'm not sure even if we could have signed him that vakimaki still wasn't untouchable.  IIRC he was a major ask from new jersey in the attempt to get Taylor Hall and wouldn't put him in that deal either 

My understanding was Valimaki was in the Stone deal. I don’t think he was ever untouchable but yes there was a reluctance to move him which make complete sense at the time. 
up until his knee injury he was looking like a top pairing d prospect 

[conundrumed]

44 minutes ago, cross16 said:

My understanding was Valimaki was in the Stone deal. I don’t think he was ever untouchable but yes there was a reluctance to move him which make complete sense at the time. 
up until his knee injury he was looking like a top pairing d prospect 

Hopefully he can get it back. I agree he was looking good.

[jjgallow]

46 minutes ago, cross16 said:

My understanding was Valimaki was in the Stone deal. I don’t think he was ever untouchable but yes there was a reluctance to move him which make complete sense at the time. 
up until his knee injury he was looking like a top pairing d prospect 

 

top 4 yes.

 

The thing is that he looked like it after his knee injury too.   He dominated SM-Liiga.

 

Hate to say it happened when Darryl Sutter took over,

 

but it did.

[conundrumed]

57 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

top 4 yes.

 

The thing is that he looked like it after his knee injury too.   He dominated SM-Liiga.

 

Hate to say it happened when Darryl Sutter took over,

 

but it did.

No reason to hate to say it. He made Gudbranson acceptable, Zadorov better and Kylington play to his strengths. If Valimaki is an NHL dman, he's got the coach to help with that.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/king-zhigalov-among-2022-nhl-draft-prospects-passed-over-in-2021/c-334629134

 

https://thehockeynews.com/news/nhl-draft-notable-players-that-went-undrafted

 

 

We doing any notable PTOs?

 

pretty please

 

lol

 

Might want to ignore the first list, as every single one was drafted in 22.

Any of the guys in the 2nd list turn your crask?

None of them really stand out.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Might want to ignore the first list, as every single one was drafted in 22.

Any of the guys in the 2nd list turn your crask?

None of them really stand out.

 

For me, in part it's the 5'10 defencemen.   Typical scenario.   The skill is there, but teams are a little reluctant to draft under 5'11.    

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/571946/jake-livanavage

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/483418/hudson-thornton

 

And defencemen in general get overlooked

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/526087/spencer-sova

 

Then you've got the late bloomer:   Sadly, Vancouver already took him off the table.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/290353/arshdeep-bains

 

 

 

Then you've got your Gaudreau/Mangiapane situation, but this year has a RW, which is nice:

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/403435/jackson-berezowski

 

While I care more about the defencemen, this guy's hard to ignore.  46 goals.   Comparable to Mangiapane.  Now, Mangiapane probably had a bit of and edge on the surface, but this guy is on a truly aweful team, plus he's RW.   IMHO that balances things out, so yes, Mangiapane comparable.

[travel_dude]

39 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

For me, in part it's the 5'10 defencemen.   Typical scenario.   The skill is there, but teams are a little reluctant to draft under 5'11.    

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/571946/jake-livanavage

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/483418/hudson-thornton

 

And defencemen in general get overlooked

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/526087/spencer-sova

 

Then you've got the late bloomer:   Sadly, Vancouver already took him off the table.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/290353/arshdeep-bains

 

 

 

Then you've got your Gaudreau/Mangiapane situation, but this year has a RW, which is nice:

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/403435/jackson-berezowski

 

While I care more about the defencemen, this guy's hard to ignore.  46 goals.   Comparable to Mangiapane.  Now, Mangiapane probably had a bit of and edge on the surface, but this guy is on a truly aweful team, plus he's RW.   IMHO that balances things out, so yes, Mangiapane comparable.

 

Okay, I get the idea of a free pick. 

So, you know we invited people to the Young Stars classic?

[jjgallow]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Okay, I get the idea of a free pick. 

So, you know we invited people to the Young Stars classic?

 

Anyone good?  It's usually randoms

[tmac70]

6 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Oh don't get me wrong..I think there's a high chance he clears too.. just not 100%..

Just saying the optics should he get claimed are brutal..

This is one of Tre's prized 1st round  picks .. the first one for all intents and purposes busted out..(Bennett)..the second looked good and then wanted out ( tkachuk)..the 3rd being lost on waivers after being untouchable at one point would be brutal.. I just can't see him being willing to let that happen . A low return buys a lot more forgiveness and if nothing else salvages a lot of pride as well 

This has the feeling of a Sven Barechi talent but enitilement over rides it , Jusso reminds of Sven in this situation. Sutter made more players last year than he brought down, sometimes its not the coach but uncoable players. So Bennett, Matthew, Monahan, Valimaki 4th - 13th all could be a bust not a great look 

[sak22]

4 hours ago, tmac70 said:

This has the feeling of a Sven Barechi talent but enitilement over rides it , Jusso reminds of Sven in this situation. Sutter made more players last year than he brought down, sometimes its not the coach but uncoable players. So Bennett, Matthew, Monahan, Valimaki 4th - 13th all could be a bust not a great look 

Well Valimaki was 16th, not earthshattering if he doesn't pan out, there were a lot of duds picked before him.  Monahan despite the last 2 years is still 3rd in his draft class in scoring, so it's hard to call him a bust and is still one of the more productive #6 picks in recent history.  Tkachuk 10 times out of 10 I still make the pick and deal with the rest later, crazy so many people here wanted Nylander then.  Just a lot of misfortune, but way better than the Rico Fata's, Daniel Tkaczuk or Brent Krahn's.

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

Well Valimaki was 16th, not earthshattering if he doesn't pan out, there were a lot of duds picked before him.  Monahan despite the last 2 years is still 3rd in his draft class in scoring, so it's hard to call him a bust and is still one of the more productive #6 picks in recent history.  Tkachuk 10 times out of 10 I still make the pick and deal with the rest later, crazy so many people here wanted Nylander then.  Just a lot of misfortune, but way better than the Rico Fata's, Daniel Tkaczuk or Brent Krahn's.

Oh man . So long ago but if I recall one of our scouts literally quit as soon as Risebrough picked Fata . Most of the team scouts were pushing for Sergei Samsonov .. Risebrough thought he was too small but loved Fatas speed .. unfortunately that was the only skill he did well 

Daniel tkachuk looked like a great pick .but then Injuries derailed him.. iirc that was Krahns downfall as well 

[Thebrewcrew]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Oh man . So long ago but if I recall one of our scouts literally quit as soon as Risebrough picked Fata . Most of the team scouts were pushing for Sergei Samsonov .. Risebrough thought he was too small but loved Fatas speed .. unfortunately that was the only skill he did well 

Daniel tkachuk looked like a great pick .but then Injuries derailed him.. iirc that was Krahns downfall as well 

This perfectly outlines why a rebuild is no sure thing. Three top 10 picks that didn't turn out. 

 

Scouting has come a long way, but it's still an inexact science. You're betting your future on 18yr old kids. We all want a McDavid or Crosby. Not only do you need to win the lottery to get that kind of talent, you need to win the lottery in the right year. Can just as easily end up with Fata, Tkaczuk and Krahn. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

This perfectly outlines why a rebuild is no sure thing. Three top 10 picks that didn't turn out. 

 

Scouting has come a long way, but it's still an inexact science. You're betting your future on 18yr old kids. We all want a McDavid or Crosby. Not only do you need to win the lottery to get that kind of talent, you need to win the lottery in the right year. Can just as easily end up with Fata, Tkaczuk and Krahn. 

 

No.  It only outlines why you need to tank hardcore to top 2 pick.  Top 10 is hardly doing it right.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

This perfectly outlines why a rebuild is no sure thing. Three top 10 picks that didn't turn out. 

 

Scouting has come a long way, but it's still an inexact science. You're betting your future on 18yr old kids. We all want a McDavid or Crosby. Not only do you need to win the lottery to get that kind of talent, you need to win the lottery in the right year. Can just as easily end up with Fata, Tkaczuk and Krahn. 

I think it outlines how back then the scouting or the trust in scouts wasn't there. Trust in the guys seeing the players more often than yourself (the GM) who once saw them once maybe. 

[MP5029]

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

No.  It only outlines why you need to tank hardcore to top 2 pick.  Top 10 is hardly doing it right.

Kinda true…i Mean you look

at Edm and Pits they tanked till they got that generational player…though it is true draft years do play a part of it, you need “that” player in the draft, and you need to also win the lottery but you tank enough you’ll eventually hit the Jack pot

 

[Heartbreaker]

Yeah, I mean, @Thebrewcrew is right. Edmonton had four in six, which almost ties their stellar Stanley Cup Record. Sure, McDavid was the prize, but they also took Nail Yakupov first overall... Ryan Nugent Hopkins, too. A fine player, to be sure, but if that draft happened today, do you think it'd look different? Taylor Hall is a great player, too, but would you build your whole team around him?

Love.

[sak22]

12 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Oh man . So long ago but if I recall one of our scouts literally quit as soon as Risebrough picked Fata . Most of the team scouts were pushing for Sergei Samsonov .. Risebrough thought he was too small but loved Fatas speed .. unfortunately that was the only skill he did well 

Daniel tkachuk looked like a great pick .but then Injuries derailed him.. iirc that was Krahns downfall as well 

That was Coates who took Fata

[cross16]

21 hours ago, conundrumed said:

No reason to hate to say it. He made Gudbranson acceptable, Zadorov better and Kylington play to his strengths. If Valimaki is an NHL dman, he's got the coach to help with that.

 

Ya he wasn't great under Ward either. He had some flashes but it was a really up and down season even before Sutter took over. Still plenty of talent there and not uncommon at all that a player that missed what is basically a season and a half would take some time. 

 

I just can't stand this entitled stuff crap. Is the kid confident sure and he should be. Entitled when no one here knows him? I just hate that stuff. Kid has battled multiple injuries in his career, most of which bad luck. 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

Yeah, I mean, @Thebrewcrew is right. Edmonton had four in six, which almost ties their stellar Stanley Cup Record. Sure, McDavid was the prize, but they also took Nail Yakupov first overall... Ryan Nugent Hopkins, too. A fine player, to be sure, but if that draft happened today, do you think it'd look different? Taylor Hall is a great player, too, but would you build your whole team around him?

Love.

 

I think that's the thing with the Oilers failed rebuilds... they failed to build around anyone.  For a stretch of like 10 years, the Oilers never graduated a player to the NHL drafted beyond the 1st round.  For a small market team that struggled to attract UFAs, they couldn't get out of their rebuilds and relied solely on picking 1st overall.

 

In comparison, teams like TB and COL drafted #1 overall and also drafted well in later rounds.  That's the way to go.

[robrob74]

18 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think that's the thing with the Oilers failed rebuilds... they failed to build around anyone.  For a stretch of like 10 years, the Oilers never graduated a player to the NHL drafted beyond the 1st round.  For a small market team that struggled to attract UFAs, they couldn't get out of their rebuilds and relied solely on picking 1st overall.

 

In comparison, teams like TB and COL drafted #1 overall and also drafted well in later rounds.  That's the way to go.

Others say rebuilds can backfire. Quote certain teams and certain draft records. How many hits in the later rounds have those teams made? 
 

two of our best players were later picks, Mangiapane and Gaudreau. Dube was a 2nd I think. Andersson and Kylington 2nds, if Ruzicka makes it, later... so pair that draft record with top 1-3 overall draft pick talent. Anyone else?

 

for me, if we are confident in our drafting and scouting then a rebuild should work. 
 

no one is 

[The_People1]

7 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Others so rebuilds can backfire. Quote certain teams and certain draft records. How many hits in the later rounds have those teams made? 
 

two of our best players were later picks, Mangiapane and Gaudreau. Dube was a 2nd I think. Andersson and Kylington 2nds, if Ruzicka makes it, later... so pair that draft record with top 1-3 overall draft pick talent. 
 

no one is 

 

Imagine drafting Gaudreau and Mangiapane in the mid rounds AND also #1 overall.  That's the way to go.

[sak22]

40 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think that's the thing with the Oilers failed rebuilds... they failed to build around anyone.  For a stretch of like 10 years, the Oilers never graduated a player to the NHL drafted beyond the 1st round.  For a small market team that struggled to attract UFAs, they couldn't get out of their rebuilds and relied solely on picking 1st overall.

 

In comparison, teams like TB and COL drafted #1 overall and also drafted well in later rounds.  That's the way to go.

Actually Colorado's non-firsts over the past 10+ years have been pretty bad as well, I believe Colorado only had 6 of their own drafted players on their cup winning team and the only one drafted outside of the top 10 of the 6 was Newhook at 16, they just didn't miss at all in their top 10 picks and the closest thing you can criticize them for is they could've picked a better player than Landeskog.   Colorado had two players taken at #9 and #4 who significantly better than any of the Oilers 3 straight #1's, add in Colorado made quality trades, while Edmonton trades for Griffin Reinhart.  Colorado makes value signings like Nikuschkin, Edmonton overpays players to go there.  Colorado has paid a premium price to fill for their lack of internal development in goaltending, Edmonton goes the bargain bin route.

 

Edit: Also important, Mackinnon has a mediocre ELC and didn't command a hefty raise, McDavid was MVP in year 2, and was able to get the massive 2nd deal.  The test for Colorado will be when Mackinnon's contract doubles.

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Imagine drafting Gaudreau and Mangiapane in the mid rounds AND also #1 overall.  That's the way to go.

 

Which year?

Hall

Nuge

Yak

 

The good ones:

Mackinnon

Ekblad

McD

Matthews

 

The next tier:

Hischier

Dahlin

Hughes

 

Unknown:

Lafrenier

Power

Lafrowsky

[tmac70]

17 hours ago, sak22 said:

Well Valimaki was 16th, not earthshattering if he doesn't pan out, there were a lot of duds picked before him.  Monahan despite the last 2 years is still 3rd in his draft class in scoring, so it's hard to call him a bust and is still one of the more productive #6 picks in recent history.  Tkachuk 10 times out of 10 I still make the pick and deal with the rest later, crazy so many people here wanted Nylander then.  Just a lot of misfortune, but way better than the Rico Fata's, Daniel Tkaczuk or Brent Krahn's.

Yeah bust was the wrong word for that statement. Were the choices wron no, in most cases, development was inapproperiate. History shows we do not have a great track record for picking and retaining great players.