Darryl Sutter new head coach

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

I am glad you posted this. I have been thinking about this for a little while, and I have noticed that there is a lot of talk on the board about the '18/'19 season being an aberration. Maybe that's true, but it's also possible that this season is an aberration. The reality is that they should fall somewhere in between this year, and that year. You can't expect players to have career years every year, but some of our best and most important players are having a well below average season. There could be a number of factors that contribute to this. I don't think that the Flames should, but they could come back next year with the same team, and I would anticipate a better result.

Love.

 

It's important not to use a 56 game season against 6 teams to be the way to build your team.

Playing Ottawa 9 times should not determine how you construct your team or evaluate the players.

But it does give you some indication of the types of teams you might struggle against.

The only problem is that you typically don't give an opponent 4 games in a row to adjust.

At the same time, this more illustrates how a playoff team scouts your team.

 

So, I do think there is both an indication of certain players struggling overall as well as struggle caused by teams adjusting strategies.

There are about 16 teams that would not typically be able to adjust like this in a regular season.

Even in the same conference, the amount of adjustment is limited, as they would need to scout for a few games in advance.

 

Long story short, the team needs to be fixed.

It may not be obvious to us who should go, as we don't attend practices or are part of the dressing room.

We only see results and can't always say whether this is the results of a specific player.  

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

24 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

I am glad you posted this. I have been thinking about this for a little while, and I have noticed that there is a lot of talk on the board about the '18/'19 season being an aberration. Maybe that's true, but it's also possible that this season is an aberration. The reality is that they should fall somewhere in between this year, and that year. You can't expect players to have career years every year, but some of our best and most important players are having a well below average season. There could be a number of factors that contribute to this. I don't think that the Flames should, but they could come back next year with the same team, and I would anticipate a better result.

Love.

Looking at TBCs numbers I dont think this year is as far from the average as it seems. Lindy is having a better season compared to last year while the majority of the top players are pretty close to last years totals. I'm in the camp that the '18/'19 season is the outlier and was just a perfect storm of everyone/everything clicking at the same time riding a purple gatorade high until other teams started to figure it out.  Take away that one season and I think you see a more representative snapshot of what this team is.

[The_People1]

14 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

I am glad you posted this. I have been thinking about this for a little while, and I have noticed that there is a lot of talk on the board about the '18/'19 season being an aberration. Maybe that's true, but it's also possible that this season is an aberration. The reality is that they should fall somewhere in between this year, and that year. You can't expect players to have career years every year, but some of our best and most important players are having a well below average season. There could be a number of factors that contribute to this. I don't think that the Flames should, but they could come back next year with the same team, and I would anticipate a better result.

Love.

 

One thing often overlooked about 2018/19 is the strength of our Division.  Or better yet, the lack thereof.

 

We played Colorado on the crossover because we feasted on a weak division that included EDM, LAK, ANA, and VAN.  Four worst teams in the conference.

 

And also, as Giordano slows down, it's becoming evidently clear that he was and has been our best player carrying this team on his back the entire time.  Where he goes, we go.  And since he's only slowing down even more due to age, there's no reason we will improve next season returning the same players.  Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Lindholm, and Monahan can't carry this team.    

[conundrumed]

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

One thing often overlooked about 2018/19 is the strength of our Division.  Or better yet, the lack thereof.

 

We played Colorado on the crossover because we feasted on a weak division that included EDM, LAK, ANA, and VAN.  Four worst teams in the conference.

 

And also, as Giordano slows down, it's becoming evidently clear that he was and has been our best player carrying this team on his back the entire time.  Where he goes, we go.  And since he's only slowing down even more due to age, there's no reason we will improve next season returning the same players.  Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Lindholm, and Monahan can't carry this team.    

That's fair.

I like Mony and Lindholm at C, Mangiapane and Dube on wing.

All else I'd change. Tkachuk until we have to qualify him.

So many exceptional players in this day and age, everyone here is replaceable.

I hope the org sees that. Sometimes I wonder why this team has to be saddled with perpetual "take what you can get, don't mess with the core".🙄

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

That's fair.

I like Mony and Lindholm at C, Mangiapane and Dube on wing.

All else I'd change. Tkachuk until we have to qualify him.

So many exceptional players in this day and age, everyone here is replaceable.

I hope the org sees that. Sometimes I wonder why this team has to be saddled with perpetual "take what you can get, don't mess with the core".🙄

 

We don't have the guts to buy low sell high.

[sak22]

11 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

One thing often overlooked about 2018/19 is the strength of our Division.  Or better yet, the lack thereof.

 

We played Colorado on the crossover because we feasted on a weak division that included EDM, LAK, ANA, and VAN.  Four worst teams in the conference.

 

And also, as Giordano slows down, it's becoming evidently clear that he was and has been our best player carrying this team on his back the entire time.  Where he goes, we go.  And since he's only slowing down even more due to age, there's no reason we will improve next season returning the same players.  Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Lindholm, and Monahan can't carry this team.    

Not really, against our division we were 16-11-2, only .500 against Edmonton, Anaheim and an unimpressive 2-1-2 against Vancouver.  3-1 against Arizona and LA but only 500 against Vegas and San Jose, winning% of 55 against the division.  Against the stronger Central 13-7-1, 62% wins and were 8-6-1 against the 5 playoff teams in that division, not that bad, against the Atlantic they were 8-5-3, so just average, but the Metro division 13-2-1, another division with 5 playoff teams that year.  The weak division helped us run away late in the year, but that team did damage against some good teams as well, we can call it a fluke if we want, but we fared quite well against the league that year.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, sak22 said:

Not really, against our division we were 16-11-2, only .500 against Edmonton, Anaheim and an unimpressive 2-1-2 against Vancouver.  3-1 against Arizona and LA but only 500 against Vegas and San Jose, winning% of 55 against the division.  Against the stronger Central 13-7-1, 62% wins and were 8-6-1 against the 5 playoff teams in that division, not that bad, against the Atlantic they were 8-5-3, so just average, but the Metro division 13-2-1, another division with 5 playoff teams that year.  The weak division helped us run away late in the year, but that team did damage against some good teams as well, we can call it a fluke if we want, but we fared quite well against the league that year.

what I think happens a lot is teams don’t play as serious against teams outside their division and understand winning in division is a good path to the playoffs. Although, in a conference, both divisions have playoff aspirations, but maybe it is that there are less games against teams in other divisions.

[travel_dude]

Have to wonder what Sutter does this summer with A/coaches.  He's had the same bunch since BP brought in a few and others were from previous times.

Since a head coach normally gets to mold his team, wonder what the chances of current guys being relieved.

Not to say they were the problem, but the head coach seems to be the only things that has changed over time.

[rickross]

You know, a coaching change had to be made but I’m still not convinced Darryl was the right choice. BT has a brutal track record with coaches and this one had knee jerk reaction written all over it. Sutter has been good in terms of implementing more structure to this team but I’m not sure if he’s that “next level” coach this team desperately needs. I guess time will tell 

[sak22]

15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Have to wonder what Sutter does this summer with A/coaches.  He's had the same bunch since BP brought in a few and others were from previous times.

Since a head coach normally gets to mold his team, wonder what the chances of current guys being relieved.

Not to say they were the problem, but the head coach seems to be the only things that has changed over time.

I just hope he doesn't bring Preston back

[LouCifer]

1 minute ago, rickross said:

You know, a coaching change had to be made but I’m still not convinced Darryl was the right choice. BT has a brutal track record with coaches and this one had knee jerk reaction written all over it. Sutter has been good in terms of implementing more structure to this team but I’m not sure if he’s that “next level” coach this team desperately needs. I guess time will tell 

I’m pretty confident Darryl wasn’t BT’s hire. 

[LouCifer]

1 minute ago, sak22 said:

I just hope he doesn't bring Preston back

Was Preston with him in LA??!?

[sak22]

Just now, lou44291 said:

Was Preston with him in LA??!?

Nope, only place they didn't work together.

[LouCifer]

Just now, sak22 said:

Nope, only place they didn't work together.

Let’s hope it stays that way 😅

[rickross]

6 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

I’m pretty confident Darryl wasn’t BT’s hire. 

I’m guessing we can’t fire the owners then ...🙄

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, rickross said:

You know, a coaching change had to be made but I’m still not convinced Darryl was the right choice. BT has a brutal track record with coaches and this one had knee jerk reaction written all over it. Sutter has been good in terms of implementing more structure to this team but I’m not sure if he’s that “next level” coach this team desperately needs. I guess time will tell 

 

So, Darrel inherited a system from the previous regime.  

No time to adjust it with limited practice time, nor evaluate what parts of it didn't make sense.

I'm not sure Sutter is the right coach, but that's because he fits certain team, which we may not be.

 

[Thebrewcrew]

Some of these roster decisions lately have left me puzzled.

 

I get that the Flames still need to ice an NHL lineup, they can't throw 11 players from Stockton in, I get that. But why isn't Valimaki playing every game? This is a kid that needs experience and the games don't matter at this point. Baffling. To a lesser extent, Dube. He makes a mistake, gets stapled to the bench.

 

One takeaway I have from this season is, I think the Flames need to get faster and they need to play quicker. Guys like Dube and Valimaki help with that. Stone's and Ritchie's don't, but I have a feeling they'll be Flames next year.

 

I think Sutter is a good coach, but if he's going to go with the rugged vets, next year will be a tough one. Call it an unintentional tank, the team may intend to be a playoff contender, but end up well out of it. That's assuming we see fringe NHL vets playing over younger options. 

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Some of these roster decisions lately have left me puzzled.

 

I get that the Flames still need to ice an NHL lineup, they can't throw 11 players from Stockton in, I get that. But why isn't Valimaki playing every game? This is a kid that needs experience and the games don't matter at this point. Baffling. To a lesser extent, Dube. He makes a mistake, gets stapled to the bench.

 

One takeaway I have from this season is, I think the Flames need to get faster and they need to play quicker. Guys like Dube and Valimaki help with that. Stone's and Ritchie's don't, but I have a feeling they'll be Flames next year.

 

I think Sutter is a good coach, but if he's going to go with the rugged vets, next year will be a tough one. Call it an unintentional tank, the team may intend to be a playoff contender, but end up well out of it. That's assuming we see fringe NHL vets playing over younger options. 

 

We have several D that think the game slower.

Unfortunately, Valimaki is a victim to that style of play.

He second guesses himself.

As does Ras, who used to skate a lot more.

 

Our 3rd line is built of defense and transition.

You almost always see just Backlund on that transition.

Nordstrom is one of the least capable players I have seen in generating offense.

He skates well and forchecks, but doesn't do anything with it.

Lucic lumbers into the zone and every once in awhile his stick is just right.

 

I've never seen a guy like Ritchie with hands so bad he misplays every puck he touches.

 

Like Bennett, a lot of our players would do better on other teams.

Such a mishmash of player types, I am surprised they get assists on goals.

The top line is about the only line that works well, and that has two players we may have to trade.

Mangiapane is a top 6 player any day, but we can't use him without playing someone else on RW.

Dube is probably a good RW, but can't just play him with another small LW.

Ryan is too small for the types of players we have on the 4th line.

Backlund is a good two way C that doesn;t seem to want to be here.

Probably fed up with the Bennett type demotions.

Who is left?

Prospects that can't get a shot at top 6, but are that type of players.

 

Now we have a starter that will be overplayed because Sutter does that.

No backup becuase we can't develop goalies.

 

[cross16]

14 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Some of these roster decisions lately have left me puzzled.

 

I get that the Flames still need to ice an NHL lineup, they can't throw 11 players from Stockton in, I get that. But why isn't Valimaki playing every game? This is a kid that needs experience and the games don't matter at this point. Baffling. To a lesser extent, Dube. He makes a mistake, gets stapled to the bench.

 

One takeaway I have from this season is, I think the Flames need to get faster and they need to play quicker. Guys like Dube and Valimaki help with that. Stone's and Ritchie's don't, but I have a feeling they'll be Flames next year.

 

I think Sutter is a good coach, but if he's going to go with the rugged vets, next year will be a tough one. Call it an unintentional tank, the team may intend to be a playoff contender, but end up well out of it. That's assuming we see fringe NHL vets playing over younger options. 

 

This is why

 

Quote

 

“I think (Dube) and Valimaki are the identical players in terms of where they’re at – their minutes don’t go up unless they become better players,” said Sutter who scratched Valimaki once again for Tuesday’s meaningless 4-2 loss.

“If they become better players this team becomes better. There’s a little bit of entitlement that went on here and that impacts your team in a negative way for sure. You don’t play guys more to help them get better. They have to help themselves get better based on their training, based on their preparation, based on their compete level, not just the skills that they were drafted on.”

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/flames-sutter-calls-dube-valimaki-lots-growing/

 

Infuriating.....

[travel_dude]

Maybe some of Sutter's comments are valid, but let's not fool ourselves thinking that the entitlement extended to players that suited up for every game available.

Has Lucic had games where he should have been benched?

How about Gaudreau?

Monahan?

Tkachuk has a couple of games where he should have sat immediately afterwards.

 

I don't think Dube was ready for top line this season, so that part may be fair.  Saying that Boeser had 10 shots and Dube had two penalties is fair, but I didn't realize Backlund and Lucic had no part in that happening.  You want Dube to play faster, yet he has never been on a "speed" line.  He's had Tkachuk or Lucic.  Sometimes Monahan.  Maybe if they had a smurf line like Guadreau-Dube-Mangaipane you could see him fly.  Or even Gaudreau-Lindholm-Dube.

 

Honestly, it's no surprise that Sutter is doing what he does.  Hard on young guys to either break them or get them to the top.  It's up to the GM to provide him with the right tools to build a winner.  Take away the Nesterov's and Ritchie's and he will have no choice but to play what he has.  Perhaps we need a proper POHO to get in between Sutter, BT and the owners.  Stop building piecemeal.  Come up with a plan.   

[cross16]

The part that make me mad is this is exactly why the Flames were awful at development when Sutter was the GM, he puts it entirely on the player. There is little support, little room for errors and he doesn't' really help them emphasize their strengths while also working on their weaknesses and I don't' think that works. It's basically a thrive or die model and I think it's wrong and not in the best interest of the players or the organization. 

 

History is repeating itself from the way I look at it. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

48 minutes ago, cross16 said:

The part that make me mad is this is exactly why the Flames were awful at development when Sutter was the GM, he puts it entirely on the player. There is little support, little room for errors and he doesn't' really help them emphasize their strengths while also working on their weaknesses and I don't' think that works. It's basically a thrive or die model and I think it's wrong and not in the best interest of the players or the organization. 

 

History is repeating itself from the way I look at it. 

 

 

 

That is why we are in for a showdown.  BT has a different mindset.

[tmac70]

12 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

This is why

 

 

Infuriating.....

See ans I disagree with you on this. Sutter is right , Val and Dube are good players and many of have indicated entilement went on here for far to long. The problem with this is everyone wznts the truth but no one can handle the truth. Valimaki has been Satoshi Nakamoto all year, Dube is hit and miss. Sutter call JG out and poof he answered the bell. This is a coach that demands more frankly i think he is spot on with the assesment. Which goes right up the top of the organization, its been run like a country club for to long

[jjgallow]

10 hours ago, cross16 said:

The part that make me mad is this is exactly why the Flames were awful at development when Sutter was the GM, he puts it entirely on the player. There is little support, little room for errors and he doesn't' really help them emphasize their strengths while also working on their weaknesses and I don't' think that works. It's basically a thrive or die model and I think it's wrong and not in the best interest of the players or the organization. 

 

History is repeating itself from the way I look at it. 

 

 

I'm not going to say you're right or you're wrong.   But I will say, the last coach infuriated you too.  At some point you have to look upwards in the organisation for accountability.

 

Two bad coaches in a row?   Not sure I agree.   But if that's the case, who's fault is that?

Maybe it is the players...and they're just not as good as we hoped?   Well, who put the team together

 

Maybe it's not black and white.   Maybe there's partial truths.   Did we Rush Valimaki's development?  Yes we did. 100%  we did.    Who should have stopped that?  GM should have.

Did we rush Dube's development?   Not as clear to me.   Is he as good as some here think he is?  Probably not. And who put the team together?

 

17 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

See ans I disagree with you on this. Sutter is right , Val and Dube are good players and many of have indicated entilement went on here for far to long. The problem with this is everyone wznts the truth but no one can handle the truth. Valimaki has been Satoshi Nakamoto all year, Dube is hit and miss. Sutter call JG out and poof he answered the bell. This is a coach that demands more frankly i think he is spot on with the assesment. Which goes right up the top of the organization, its been run like a country club for to long

 

I like Sutter.

 

Sutter was brought in here to win a cup.   This happened because we have a GM who has no clue what they are doing or how to evaluate a team.

 

So no matter how you look at it, I do give Sutter a bit of a pass.   And we are too soft on the players quite often, imho.

 

I do think it is also true that we don't invest in player development.   But in the case of Valimaki for instance, if we Really cared about his development we wouldn't have rushed him into the NHL.

 

I think there are some higher-level incompetencies in this organization that set coaches and players alike up for failure.

[rocketdoctor]

6 hours ago, tmac70 said:

See ans I disagree with you on this. Sutter is right , Val and Dube are good players and many of have indicated entilement went on here for far to long. The problem with this is everyone wznts the truth but no one can handle the truth. Valimaki has been Satoshi Nakamoto all year, Dube is hit and miss. Sutter call JG out and poof he answered the bell. This is a coach that demands more frankly i think he is spot on with the assesment. Which goes right up the top of the organization, its been run like a country club for to long

 

But Sutter was here coach/GM when we had the Iginla country club mindset.

 

One good playoff run in 2004 and 4 or 5 first round exits.