Darryl Sutter new head coach

[jjgallow]

18 hours ago, cross16 said:

I also agree. The biggest difference between Ward and Sutter so far is the work ethic of the team. Little has changed schematically or systems wise and while Sutter is emphasizing pace I also don’t believe for a second Ward was telling the team to play slow. 
 

Im not vouching for Ward I’m just saying the immediate results are more due to worth ethic change than the coach. The test is yet to come. 

 

this is the 10 game adrenalin rush, agreed.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

this is the 10 game adrenalin rush, agreed.

 

So, thumbs up or down to replacing Ward with Sutter?

[cross16]

18 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

thing is though, Sutter believes the pace of the practice sets the pace in game. That’s something we saw right away, but could just be new coach effort on behalf of the players.

 

18 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I dont think there will be any dead cat bounce. Some of the biggest issues people on this board has with Ward was player utilization, accountability, and  in game adaptability.  All of these will be addressed by Sutters coaching style.  No it wont be the one piece that gets you to the finals but its a big leap.

 

At the end of the day I'm just so tired of letting the players off the hook. Already again the buzz around the Flames is "see what happens when they finally hire a real coach" and I personally hate it. As much as I disliked Ward I also don't believe for a second he was out there saying "hey slow that play down", "hey throw that pass through the middle of the neutral zone", "hey go stand around on the PP" etc etc. Could there have been more accountability, probably but it's really disappointing that after all these years its always a coach that has to step in and hold this team accountable.  Again I was no fan of Ward and while I do like Sutter I'm also not a believer that this is all fixed now just because Darryl Sutter is here, doesn't matter how much of a coaching upgrade you have.

 

Flames upgraded huge in the coaching department for sure, but i'm sill not a believer it has the impact that some seem to. I fully expect the same problems to arise after 5-6 games. The question for me is not is it coming or not, it's can Sutter smooth out the valley or can he identify a different way around it. 

 

To be clear i'm not second guessing the decision, letting Ward goes was 1000% the right call, i'm just not going to let the players off the hook that easy. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

 

At the end of the day I'm just so tired of letting the players off the hook. Already again the buzz around the Flames is "see what happens when they finally hire a real coach" and I personally hate it. As much as I disliked Ward I also don't believe for a second he was out there saying "hey slow that play down", "hey throw that pass through the middle of the neutral zone", "hey go stand around on the PP" etc etc. Could there have been more accountability, probably but it's really disappointing that after all these years its always a coach that has to step in and hold this team accountable.  Again I was no fan of Ward and while I do like Sutter I'm also not a believer that this is all fixed now just because Darryl Sutter is here, doesn't matter how much of a coaching upgrade you have.

 

Flames upgraded huge in the coaching department for sure, but i'm sill not a believer it has the impact that some seem to. I fully expect the same problems to arise after 5-6 games. The question for me is not is it coming or not, it's can Sutter smooth out the valley or can he identify a different way around it. 

 

To be clear i'm not second guessing the decision, letting Ward goes was 1000% the right call, i'm just not going to let the players off the hook that easy. 

 

I think Lucic called the accountability into question as well.  Not sure why he has to say that with a team filled with vets.  I can understand frustration about being played a certain way, or not being given a role and just thrown out there.  But we are talking about just about every player on the team.  If Backlund is being pissy about 3rd line or Tkachuk for not being backed up or Bennett scratched or whatever, fix the problem.  Don't give up in a game or whatever.

 

I'm not going to sit here and blame the lack of consistency or poor attitudes on the coach.  Unless that was acceptable to him.  Not going to blame pace on the coach unless he preached that you move up the ice a certain way and that's what they were doing.  Then again, if Sutter is telling them something different, but is unwilling to trash the previous coach or really call into question the old play strategy, that's another story.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, thumbs up or down to replacing Ward with Sutter?

 

thumbs up, it's hard to beat Sutter as a coach.

 

But ,,  

 

my stance on this prior to the coaching change:

 

"Here's another prediction.     When Ward gets fired, we're going to go on a ~10 game point streak and then sink Right back to where we are now with yet another dud coach."

 

Has not really changed.  Other than, Sutter isn't a dud coach.   But he can't fix this long term imho.

 

 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think Lucic called the accountability into question as well.  Not sure why he has to say that with a team filled with vets.  I can understand frustration about being played a certain way, or not being given a role and just thrown out there.  But we are talking about just about every player on the team.  If Backlund is being pissy about 3rd line or Tkachuk for not being backed up or Bennett scratched or whatever, fix the problem.  Don't give up in a game or whatever.

 

I'm not going to sit here and blame the lack of consistency or poor attitudes on the coach.  Unless that was acceptable to him.  Not going to blame pace on the coach unless he preached that you move up the ice a certain way and that's what they were doing.  Then again, if Sutter is telling them something different, but is unwilling to trash the previous coach or really call into question the old play strategy, that's another story.

 

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

 

At the end of the day I'm just so tired of letting the players off the hook. Already again the buzz around the Flames is "see what happens when they finally hire a real coach" and I personally hate it. As much as I disliked Ward I also don't believe for a second he was out there saying "hey slow that play down", "hey throw that pass through the middle of the neutral zone", "hey go stand around on the PP" etc etc. Could there have been more accountability, probably but it's really disappointing that after all these years its always a coach that has to step in and hold this team accountable.  Again I was no fan of Ward and while I do like Sutter I'm also not a believer that this is all fixed now just because Darryl Sutter is here, doesn't matter how much of a coaching upgrade you have.

 

Flames upgraded huge in the coaching department for sure, but i'm sill not a believer it has the impact that some seem to. I fully expect the same problems to arise after 5-6 games. The question for me is not is it coming or not, it's can Sutter smooth out the valley or can he identify a different way around it. 

 

To be clear i'm not second guessing the decision, letting Ward goes was 1000% the right call, i'm just not going to let the players off the hook that easy. 

 

you can blame some of the efforts on the coach. As a fan it’s perplexing when guys who work hard get scratched while those who show no effort get extra ice. They were rewarding play that didn’t deserve to be rewarded. 
 

I don’t know how coaching effects the pace but I think they definitely do. Some of the coaches job is to motivate.

 

then there’s all the wrong decisions that are made in game that can affect how they play, meaning the momentum shifts. 
 

I think also somehow setting the pace would be partially the coaches job and emphasize slowing the turnovers. I get the players are making the mistakes but the coach decides who play or let them know that it isn’t acceptable. If you keep putting them out there you’re basically saying it is.

[cross16]

22 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

you can blame some of the efforts on the coach. As a fan it’s perplexing when guys who work hard get scratched while those who show no effort get extra ice. They were rewarding play that didn’t deserve to be rewarded. 
 

I don’t know how coaching effects the pace but I think they definitely do. Some of the coaches job is to motivate.

 

then there’s all the wrong decisions that are made in game that can affect how they play, meaning the momentum shifts. 
 

I think also somehow setting the pace would be partially the coaches job and emphasize slowing the turnovers. I get the players are making the mistakes but the coach decides who play or let them know that it isn’t acceptable. If you keep putting them out there you’re basically saying it is.

 

I don't think there is any doubt accountability was lacking under Ward, i've been questioning that since the end of the regular season last year. The disappointment comes from this group consistently needing the head coach to provide ALL of that accountability. How about show up and play because you like your teammates or your organization. Make that play because your teammate is counting on you, not because it's out of fear your going to get benched. That's what gets me and frustrates me you should not need a coach to provide you effort. 

 

I look at the 5 games against the Senators. 10 points on the line and you are playing one of the worst teams in the league. You get 5 out of a possible 10 points and give up 4.2 goals against/game. We need a coach to tell us that's not acceptable? It's the primary reason, IMO, they are out of the playoffs right now. 

 

I think we can be both happy they hired Sutter, believe he is a big upgrade and will improve thing AND believe that this is not all Geoff Ward's fault. This is the only point i'm trying to make that, especially when you consider much of what we've seen this year has existed for many, many years here and across multiple coaches. 

 

Anyway, i'm moving on just gets me frustrated when so much gets put on coaching. Even if the coach in question isn't any good, and as I've said for a while Ward wasn't, the players always should be accountable too. 

[travel_dude]

42 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't think there is any doubt accountability was lacking under Ward, i've been questioning that since the end of the regular season last year. The disappointment comes from this group consistently needing the head coach to provide ALL of that accountability. How about show up and play because you like your teammates or your organization. Make that play because your teammate is counting on you, not because it's out of fear your going to get benched. That's what gets me and frustrates me you should not need a coach to provide you effort. 

 

I look at the 5 games against the Senators. 10 points on the line and you are playing one of the worst teams in the league. You get 5 out of a possible 10 points and give up 4.2 goals against/game. We need a coach to tell us that's not acceptable? It's the primary reason, IMO, they are out of the playoffs right now. 

 

I think we can be both happy they hired Sutter, believe he is a big upgrade and will improve thing AND believe that this is not all Geoff Ward's fault. This is the only point i'm trying to make that, especially when you consider much of what we've seen this year has existed for many, many years here and across multiple coaches. 

 

Anyway, i'm moving on just gets me frustrated when so much gets put on coaching. Even if the coach in question isn't any good, and as I've said for a while Ward wasn't, the players always should be accountable too. 

 

Time to move on is right.  Let's post positive stuff about the coach from now on when he's does things others didn't do.

[The_People1]

17 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Time to move on is right.  Let's post positive stuff about the coach from now on when he's does things others didn't do.

 

Well we finally have a forecheck again.  It's like we forecheck with a purpose now.  Well timed and coordinated as a group.  It's our biggest noticable change so far.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well we finally have a forecheck again.  It's like we forecheck with a purpose now.  Well timed and coordinated as a group.  It's our biggest noticable change so far.

 

I've seen a lot of positives, but I can't be certain what is coach and what is coach's impact on the [layers and what is just the players deciding to.

I have my beliefs, but there's so much noise about it.

[robrob74]

26 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I've seen a lot of positives, but I can't be certain what is coach and what is coach's impact on the [layers and what is just the players deciding to.

I have my beliefs, but there's so much noise about it.

for me, if coach is addressing things and if is clear they are not playing it, therefore the coaches fully lost the room. 

[The_People1]

59 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I've seen a lot of positives, but I can't be certain what is coach and what is coach's impact on the [layers and what is just the players deciding to.

I have my beliefs, but there's so much noise about it.

 

We never seemed to forecheck as a group and if you want to have a successful forecheck, then it has to be done as a group.  Not only do you need to pressure the puck carrier, you also need to pin down the easy outlet passes.  This forces them to make a difficult pass and make a mistake.

 

We are finally covering the easy outs.   And what a difference it makes.

 

I mean personally, when I play ice, I don't even bother pressuring the puck carrier if I know my linemates aren't covering the open man.  Like what's the point.  And that's kind of what we saw under the previous coaches where players are forechecking aimlessly and without success.

[phoenix66]

15 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't think there is any doubt accountability was lacking under Ward, i've been questioning that since the end of the regular season last year. The disappointment comes from this group consistently needing the head coach to provide ALL of that accountability. How about show up and play because you like your teammates or your organization. Make that play because your teammate is counting on you, not because it's out of fear your going to get benched. That's what gets me and frustrates me you should not need a coach to provide you effort. 

 

I look at the 5 games against the Senators. 10 points on the line and you are playing one of the worst teams in the league. You get 5 out of a possible 10 points and give up 4.2 goals against/game. We need a coach to tell us that's not acceptable? It's the primary reason, IMO, they are out of the playoffs right now. 

 

I think we can be both happy they hired Sutter, believe he is a big upgrade and will improve thing AND believe that this is not all Geoff Ward's fault. This is the only point i'm trying to make that, especially when you consider much of what we've seen this year has existed for many, many years here and across multiple coaches. 

 

Anyway, i'm moving on just gets me frustrated when so much gets put on coaching. Even if the coach in question isn't any good, and as I've said for a while Ward wasn't, the players always should be accountable too. 

I 100% agree the accountability is on the players.. I liked Ward but last night's Sutter presser was a great example of what sets him apart. Every player he was asked about, he praised but also stated he wants more .. Killington was solid but needs to work with his partner more , Elias was great but he has another gear we need to find, ditto Hanifin.

Nearly all the previous coaches would have called that a complete game..a team effort.. Sutter praised what they did but made it clear it still wasn't good enough..  He doesn't let you get high on yourself .. I had forgotten what a master he is of button pushing. He doesn't push you, he gets you into a " oh yeah, watch this " mentality.. he doesn't push them so much as he makes them push themselves 

 

There will be a stinker in the future ..every team has one .. that should be interesting.

 

 

That being said.. it's only been 3 games , but is anybody else surprised the almost invisible one in this system has been Tkachuk?? He should be a standout in this system 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I 100% agree the accountability is on the players.. I liked Ward but last night's Sutter presser was a great example of what sets him apart. Every player he was asked about, he praised but also stated he wants more .. Killington was solid but needs to work with his partner more , Elias was great but he has another gear we need to find, ditto Hanifin.

Nearly all the previous coaches would have called that a complete game..a team effort.. Sutter praised what they did but made it clear it still wasn't good enough..  He doesn't let you get high on yourself .. I had forgotten what a master he is of button pushing. He doesn't push you, he gets you into a " oh yeah, watch this " mentality.. he doesn't push them so much as he makes them push themselves 

 

There will be a stinker in the future ..every team has one .. that should be interesting.

 

 

That being said.. it's only been 3 games , but is anybody else surprised the almost invisible one in this system has been Tkachuk?? He should be a standout in this system 

 

The effort was lacking after the 1st IMHO.

He played 14 minutes, which is less than Gaudreau by almost 3 minutes.

It's something that needs to be addressed.

Can't put my finger on it, but it looks like he is getting away from his usual style.

He's hard on the puck, but his passes are barely there.

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

16 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I've seen a lot of positives, but I can't be certain what is coach and what is coach's impact on the [layers and what is just the players deciding to.

I have my beliefs, but there's so much noise about it.

I think part of it is Sutters reputation for no BS hockey preceded him and the players knew what to expect so there were no surprises.  Unless Ward was specifically telling the players to play a low forecheck style, theres no reason the previous type of gameplay couldnt have been alittle more aggressive.  In fact when the team had one of their "on" games under Ward it seemed very similar to the Sutter style, just a little fancier.

[cross16]

3 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

 

That being said.. it's only been 3 games , but is anybody else surprised the almost invisible one in this system has been Tkachuk?? He should be a standout in this system 

 

This has been going on for over a month but I think Tkachck has put too much pressure on himself this year. I actually hated it when he came out and said it was all on him and he was going to turn this team around and I think it's been downhill ever since. He's rushing everything, he's just throwing the puck into open areas, he's taking himself out of position to finish checks, game is just too fast for him right. 

 

I don't think Sutter's system caters to Tkachuk anymore than anyone else, but I think the bigger issue is Tkachuk settling into his game and the team game right now. I don't think coaching had anything to do with Tkachuk's struggles this year so I wasn't expecting a coach to fix it now. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

This has been going on for over a month but I think Tkachck has put too much pressure on himself this year. I actually hated it when he came out and said it was all on him and he was going to turn this team around and I think it's been downhill ever since. He's rushing everything, he's just throwing the puck into open areas, he's taking himself out of position to finish checks, game is just too fast for him right. 

 

I don't think Sutter's system caters to Tkachuk anymore than anyone else, but I think the bigger issue is Tkachuk settling into his game and the team game right now. I don't think coaching had anything to do with Tkachuk's struggles this year so I wasn't expecting a coach to fix it now. 

 

I don't know if the answer is swapping Gaudreau with Tkachuk or what.  If Tkachuk thinks he has to be the big body on the Lindholm line, then he is taking away from the line's play.  Gaudreau has been okay, but generated zero shots himself.  I think that while Ritchie is an okay RW, it results in plays that don't really suit the line.

 

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Dube

Tkachuk-Monahan-Ritchie

 

Maybe that lines up better.  Tkachuk can focus on making plays and let Ritchie dump and check.  It becomes a bit slower line, but it should have more shot volume.

Gaudreau can focus on hitting two shooters.  Maybe a bit less responsible with Gaudreau out there, but honestly Tkachuk hasn't been a force.

 

[rickross]

We haven’t been trailing a game since Dutter took over. We would have typically been chasing these games with the 1st 5 mins. Good to see us respond to show push back from the Oilers. We would have lost this game under Ward 💯 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't know if the answer is swapping Gaudreau with Tkachuk or what.  If Tkachuk thinks he has to be the big body on the Lindholm line, then he is taking away from the line's play.  Gaudreau has been okay, but generated zero shots himself.  I think that while Ritchie is an okay RW, it results in plays that don't really suit the line.

 

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Dube

Tkachuk-Monahan-Ritchie

 

Maybe that lines up better.  Tkachuk can focus on making plays and let Ritchie dump and check.  It becomes a bit slower line, but it should have more shot volume.

Gaudreau can focus on hitting two shooters.  Maybe a bit less responsible with Gaudreau out there, but honestly Tkachuk hasn't been a force.

 

 

I don't think it's a line thing at all so I don't see that making a difference. I thikn he's in his own head so until he find comfort I don't think moving him around the lineup is going to do anything. Could even make it worse to be honest. 

[robrob74]

One thing that I think we might be forgetting or not mentioning is, how many times has Sutter missed the playoffs as a coach? How deep has his teams gone in the playoffs? He makes the playoffs a hell of a lot more than he misses. 

[cross16]

39 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

One thing that I think we might be forgetting or not mentioning is, how many times has Sutter missed the playoffs as a coach? How deep has his teams gone in the playoffs? He makes the playoffs a hell of a lot more than he misses. 

 

Missed 3 times in 17 years as a head coach. 1 year was the year he was fired by SJ and hired by Calgary and the other the Kings missed by 2 points (Hartley Flames beat them out funny enough). They were well back his last year with the Kings. 

 

Lost in round 1 7 times

Lost in Round 2 twice

Lost Round 3 twice

Lost in Finals once

2 Cups wins

[MP5029]

20 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Missed 3 times in 17 years as a head coach. 1 year was the year he was fired by SJ and hired by Calgary and the other the Kings missed by 2 points (Hartley Flames beat them out funny enough). They were well back his last year with the Kings. 

 

Lost in round 1 7 times

Lost in Round 2 twice

Lost Round 3 twice

Lost in Finals once

2 Cups wins

That is not a horrible track record 

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Missed 3 times in 17 years as a head coach. 1 year was the year he was fired by SJ and hired by Calgary and the other the Kings missed by 2 points (Hartley Flames beat them out funny enough). They were well back his last year with the Kings. 

 

Lost in round 1 7 times

Lost in Round 2 twice

Lost Round 3 twice

Lost in Finals once

2 Cups wins

 

4 hours ago, MP5029 said:

That is not a horrible track record 

 

more than 50% of the time he has been out of the first round. 
 

8-7  record for 1st round wins. 
 

out of all of his 2nd round appearances he is 6-2.

 

in round 3 he is 3-3

and 2-1 in the Finals.

 

that’s the positive spin on it an already positive stat line.

[ABC923]

From a pure statistical standpoint, coaches should be around 50% in each round. So he’s statistically average in the first round and third round, but very good in second rounds and slightly above in the finals.

[sak22]

What's more impressive is that his 3 runs to the finals he only had home ice advantage once, which was the 2014 finals vs. the Rangers.  Oddly the last 4 times he started round one on the road he's won and the last 2 with home ice, he's lost.  To note, he's only won his division 3 times, but not many coaches give me as much confidence going the distance the hard way as much as Sutter.