Darryl Sutter new head coach

[travel_dude]

Previous track record only shows that he is an experienced coach that won two cups with 2 good teams those years.

For me, the most important thing he can do is bring the team back to being a feared team and raise the compete level to that of a contender.

We may not be a contender this year in results, but I want us to play like one.

 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Previous track record only shows that he is an experienced coach that won two cups with 2 good teams those years.

For me, the most important thing he can do is bring the team back to being a feared team and raise the compete level to that of a contender.

We may not be a contender this year in results, but I want us to play like one.

 

 

ya, he brought a Flames team that wasn’t supposed to do anything of note to the finals and ended up beating some really good teams in the process. Didn’t the flames face the top 3 teams in the West to go to the cup? 
 

they should’ve won the cup too.

[robrob74]

16 hours ago, ABC923 said:

From a pure statistical standpoint, coaches should be around 50% in each round. So he’s statistically average in the first round and third round, but very good in second rounds and slightly above in the finals.

 

as a team we’ve not had that good of a record in the 1st round. Hope we can make it. It does seem like Montreal might be the odd team out by the looks of things, if the Flames can continue what they’re doing.

[sak22]

33 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

ya, he brought a Flames team that wasn’t supposed to do anything of note to the finals and ended up beating some really good teams in the process. Didn’t the flames face the top 3 teams in the West to go to the cup? 
 

they should’ve won the cup too.

Yes, would've been the top 3 teams in the west and the top team in the east.  4 of the top 7 teams in the league, that was a tough gauntlet.

[jjgallow]

22 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

ya, he brought a Flames team that wasn’t supposed to do anything of note to the finals and ended up beating some really good teams in the process. Didn’t the flames face the top 3 teams in the West to go to the cup? 
 

they should’ve won the cup too.

 

Difference is he did that the with a team coming out of a rebuild.   I can think of no better coach to make a rebuild succeed.

 

Unfortunately he's on the other end of it this time.  Or...fortunately?

 

He's going to either need to bend, or break.   If he sticks around for our rebuild he very well could see that cup in Calgary.   Might need to get his contract extended though.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Difference is he did that the with a team coming out of a rebuild.   I can think of no better coach to make a rebuild succeed.

 

Unfortunately he's on the other end of it this time.  Or...fortunately?

 

He's going to either need to bend, or break.   If he sticks around for our rebuild he very well could see that cup in Calgary.   Might need to get his contract extended though.

 

the thing is I don’t think they really came out of a rebuild then either. Most of those players ended up with average careers after the run. Some were good, but the only elite player we had was Iggy and we had an elite defender, an elite checking C. Eventually we added a few decent players. I don’t think you can say they were coming out of the rebuild because they continued to tool up after that. My issue was that they got rid worker bees that helped bring energy and did the hard work too soon. I am probably wrong. Lol

[rickross]

2 big games coming up against the Leafs, let’s hope the blowout loss to the Coilers was a one off under Sutter. Hoping to see us bounce back in a big way. Curious to see what adjustments if any Sutter has planned, I cannot stomach any more inconsistency from this team!

[jjgallow]

18 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

the thing is I don’t think they really came out of a rebuild then either. Most of those players ended up with average careers after the run. Some were good, but the only elite player we had was Iggy and we had an elite defender, an elite checking C. Eventually we added a few decent players. I don’t think you can say they were coming out of the rebuild because they continued to tool up after that. My issue was that they got rid worker bees that helped bring energy and did the hard work too soon. I am probably wrong. Lol

 

My own thoughts, they were very much coming out of a rebuild, and very good one.  Too good.

 

It didn't look like a standard rebuild because it was defence-heavy.   The amount of talent they had on defence under 25, just coming into their prime, was massive.

Combine that with having a fresh Kipper with not a heavy workload, and the league having no read on him whatsoever, they were just fantastic.  

 

And sure.  Iginla a bit of a one man show on offence lol (not entirely) but it worked at that time.

 

Just my own thoughts, although Sutter actually said as much as well (and was fined)...   I don't think the NHL liked what the Flames, and a few other teams rebuilt into.

 

They went to great lengths to change rules and officiating to ensure that a player like Regehr would just be an okay player rather than the Norris winner that he fairly was.   I don't think the NHL liked what we did, and it's hard not to think it's because we were a Canadian team but in all fairness they probably were thinking from an entertainment perspective.

 

I still think a defence and goaltending first rebuild is the way to go.    But it is true that Purebreed defencemen have been heavily penalised so you are unfortunately looking for more "entertaining" skills in even your defencemen now.

 

Can it still work in today's NHL?  Just look at St Louis.   But yeah it is different at the same time.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

Can it still work in today's NHL?  Just look at St Louis.   But yeah it is different at the same time.

Isolating on a cup winner is dangerous.

The reasons why they win one year are the same as they fail the next year.

They got outplayed in the round against VAN by a younger, smaller.

The year before they faced a big team in WPG, then DAL, then SJS.

 

It's rare that a rebuild coincides with the way the league trends.

STL has been a bridesmaid since the lockout shortened season.

Only one missed appearance in the playoffs, but not a lot of victories.

[jjgallow]

33 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Isolating on a cup winner is dangerous.

The reasons why they win one year are the same as they fail the next year.

They got outplayed in the round against VAN by a younger, smaller.

The year before they faced a big team in WPG, then DAL, then SJS.

 

It's rare that a rebuild coincides with the way the league trends.

STL has been a bridesmaid since the lockout shortened season.

Only one missed appearance in the playoffs, but not a lot of victories.

 

Let's win a cup here this decade and then we can discuss how other team's cup wins were no big deal. 

 

I said a pretty innocuous thing that defence wins cups, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone familiar with hockey that doesn't know this, and just because I name-dropped St Louis doesn't mean winning cups with defence is limited to them.

 

If I wanted to talk about isolated examples, then I would have talked about teams that won cups without great defence or goaltending.

[rickross]

Im not so sure players like Gaudreau resign with Sutter here. I mean if they see success in the next season then perhaps but thus far, Gaudreau has been ineffective in the Sutter system. Perhaps it’s a bit too suffocating for any type of creative play that Gaudreau thrives on. Sutter definitely has his type of player and not sure if players like Gaudreau necessarily fit that mold. 

[tmac70]

Sutter has a style made for larger grinders and good skaters. Guy that will struggle as we are seeing are JG, Dube, Mags, chucky, anderson and valmaki.  Either not big guys or guys that dont skate well

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, rickross said:

Im not so sure players like Gaudreau resign with Sutter here. I mean if they see success in the next season then perhaps but thus far, Gaudreau has been ineffective in the Sutter system. Perhaps it’s a bit too suffocating for any type of creative play that Gaudreau thrives on. Sutter definitely has his type of player and not sure if players like Gaudreau necessarily fit that mold. 

i dunno! 
 

he has been so off and on it is hard to say if it is just sutters system. I think his mates are a big part of what is holding him back and the fact we dont have a mobile C to compliment him is a big problem.

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Sutter has a style made for larger grinders and good skaters. Guy that will struggle as we are seeing are JG, Dube, Mags, chucky, anderson and valmaki.  Either not big guys or guys that dont skate well

And I think most of them would be fine, but they’re the only type of players on their lines. Dube and Mangiapane play with edge, but if they’re the skilled grinders on the line, they can only play that way for so long before petering out. It would be great if we had them and players with their skill mixed with size. 
 

also, I think Valamaki is still a rook so he’s struggled off and on all season. We had too high expectations of him to start his career. 
 

I really just think the line mixes are off. Tkachuk was struggling well before Sutter.

 

Gaudreau had been good in spurts but it’s clear the style doesn’t suit him, and both Monahan and Ritchie are too slow for him. Can get away with Monahan being slow but having two guys drag him down is really showing.

[ABC923]

I think we may already be seeing the decline in Gaudreau to be honest. Either that, or the league has him pegged. He might be a 60 point player still, but he's on a 50 point pace for an 82 game season. If he sticks around next season, he's unlikely to cash in for more than his current contract.  Hopefully we have the good sense to trade him before he has a third season of declining numbers.  We just have to hope he isn't seen the same way Skinner was when Carolina traded him (A prospect that busted without ever playing a game, a 2nd, 3rd and 6th round draft pick).

[travel_dude]

12 hours ago, ABC923 said:

I think we may already be seeing the decline in Gaudreau to be honest. Either that, or the league has him pegged. He might be a 60 point player still, but he's on a 50 point pace for an 82 game season. If he sticks around next season, he's unlikely to cash in for more than his current contract.  Hopefully we have the good sense to trade him before he has a third season of declining numbers.  We just have to hope he isn't seen the same way Skinner was when Carolina traded him (A prospect that busted without ever playing a game, a 2nd, 3rd and 6th round draft pick).

 

I think your math is off.  Or maybe mine is, but Gaudreau is currently on pace for 61.5 over 82 and 20 goals for 82.

That would tie him with the season he re-signed late.

I don't know about you, but expecting him to drive the play starting 86% of the time (last night) in the D-zone sounds wrong.

When your most dynamic player has to hope that his line mates can catch up and retrieve a dump in....

Because that's what they are limiting his line to.

 

Remember last season when he would get 2 breakaways per game, but rarely converted?

This year he is a lot more unpredictable when he gets one, but almost zero chances as of late.

[cross16]

I actually think Gaudreaus played well under Sutter. He’s doing a lot of really good little plays at both ends of the ice, his compete level is high, I’ve liked what I’ve seen. I know the points arnt there but I think that’s more of a product of some questionable linemates, more d zone starts and the flames pp being out of sync. 
he’s been a more complete player this year but left to do too much on his own. I think moving him away from Monahan would really help. 

[travel_dude]

35 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I actually think Gaudreaus played well under Sutter. He’s doing a lot of really good little plays at both ends of the ice, his competent level is high, I’ve liked what I’ve seen. I know the points arnt that but I think that’s more of a product of some questionable linemates, more d zone starts and the flames pp being out of sync. 
he’s been a more complete player this year but left to do too much on his own. I think moving him away from Monahan would really help. 

 

Gaudreau and Monahan have looked good together when played with Lindholm.

Was that two games this season?  The rest of the games are a jumble of wngers who either were snakebit for the few games (Leivo), a bad fit (Ritchie), Simon, Bennett and maybe one game with Mangiapane.  I don't disagree that it may be time to split up Gaudreau and Monahan, but you still have to deal with the fact Ritchie is a mistake.

 

I don't dispute Gaudreau is a more complete player as much as the fact that the current line isn't working.

 

[JTech780]

I was one of the people wanting to see a coaching change as I just didn't think Geoff Ward was an NHL head coach, and I still don't think he was a good coach. I also wasn't under any illusion that coaching was the main problem with this team and that the problems went much deeper than coaching.

 

Darryl Sutter wouldn't have been my first choice, but when he was hired I tried to find the positives. The biggest positive I thought Sutter would bring would be accountability, but as of right now the only guys being held accountable are Valimaki and Dube, the two youngest players on the team. Now I am fine with trying to get those players to raise their games as they both have very high ceilings, but how are they going to get better watching from the press box. Where is the accountability for the vets on this team that continually make mistakes but don't see their ice time decreased. If I am Valimaki or Dube and every time I make a mistake I am out of the lineup, but if a vet makes the same mistake nothing happens, I am not learning anything from that. That's not how accountability works, you have to hold everyone to the same standard or you aren't accomplishing anything.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

I was one of the people wanting to see a coaching change as I just didn't think Geoff Ward was an NHL head coach, and I still don't think he was a good coach. I also wasn't under any illusion that coaching was the main problem with this team and that the problems went much deeper than coaching.

 

Darryl Sutter wouldn't have been my first choice, but when he was hired I tried to find the positives. The biggest positive I thought Sutter would bring would be accountability, but as of right now the only guys being held accountable are Valimaki and Dube, the two youngest players on the team. Now I am fine with trying to get those players to raise their games as they both have very high ceilings, but how are they going to get better watching from the press box. Where is the accountability for the vets on this team that continually make mistakes but don't see their ice time decreased. If I am Valimaki or Dube and every time I make a mistake I am out of the lineup, but if a vet makes the same mistake nothing happens, I am not learning anything from that. That's not how accountability works, you have to hold everyone to the same standard or you aren't accomplishing anything.

 

You are bang on with that assessment.

At the very least Valimaki should be in the AHL getting tons of minutes.

Playing with future players, not has beens.

I'm of the belief that Valimaki either should be playing with Ras or Tanev only on this club right now.

Nesterov and Stone are poinson.

 

Dube was misscast as a top RW IMHO.

He is well below Mangiapane's level right now.

He was able to do well in the playoffs because he was on the 3rd line with grinders.

Allowed him to use his speed to get open and finish.

You can't do that when you are playing against Matthews or EDM's top players or against Sheifele.

 

Coming back to accountability, it's only being used in games not between games.

Even then, it's sporardic depending on how the game unfolds.

I must have missed how Valimaki was a negative against the Oilers.

Seeing as he was on for a goal for and none against, and we failed on the PK, I'm missing something.

Stone (-2), Nesterov (-1), Gio (-3) and Ras (-2) were a combined -8 against WPG.

 

This season is a write-off.  There was little chance Sutter hockey would turn the corner.

At best, it's a long term strategy.

Weed out the soft players or ones that can't raise their game.

Build a team that teams actually hate to play.

Develop a team that wins on home ice much more often.

 

Well, we are some distance from that type of team.

Pace and execution are severly lacking.

I've noticed us going backwards in the D-zone.

What used to be a strength is now our weakness.

[The_People1]

What do we think of this?

 

 

 

[robrob74]

34 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

What do we think of this?

 

 

 

I think Ward was trending toward a worse record but probably can’t say for sure that the flames would be better off with him. 

[The_Tribal Chief]

Honestly a Coach is only as Good as the team he literally has and personally i have never been to the liking of fire the coach when the team doesnt win i understand it cause you cant fire 25 players but it isnt always the coach as we seen with ward he may or may not have been a nhl coach we really dont know cause this team really didnt play properly even with him as coach as they dont play proper with darryl

[cross16]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

What do we think of this?

 

 

 

it’s a misleading tweet. The trend in Wards last few games were on the same pace too. 
 

but Ward was never the only problem and Sutter was a bad fit for this roster. That’s how I see it. 
 

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

it’s a misleading tweet. The trend in Wards last few games were on the same pace too. 
 

but Ward was never the only problem and Sutter was a bad fit for this roster. That’s how I see it. 
 

 

Have we had a good coach since Sutter 1.0?

I do agree that a soft team like the Flames is not the right fit.

He would be better suited in Dallas.

 

The bigger concern is we build a team with part of the core in the mold of a Sutter team.

In other words, the less skilled parts of the core.

Monahan, Gaudreau, Valimaki, Dube do not fit the image.

Even questionable that Lindholm fits.

Doesn't ;eave much to work with.