Blow It Up?

[robrob74]

11 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I know they were merely rumours but I believe BT tried to get PLD with Monahan + Hanifin.  I'm sure he called BUF about Eichel during the summer and I'm sure he asked about Laine too.  He tried to get Mark Stone, RHS RW but got outbid by Vegas.  We needed goaltending and he finally paid up for one.

 

I genuinely believe he knows where the holes are but it takes two to tango.  The other GMs have to want what we are offering.  Making a trade is hard.

I agree. I think as players they’d be better off elsewhere, where the teams are ready to compete. I think in some cases. The idea of guys making other guys better only works if the other players fit their styles or compete and desire to be better.

[JTech780]

Quite honestly if this team doesn't turn it around in a big way on this road trip, I think the season will be lost. 

 

Really if there was a season to go through a retool this would be the season. No gate revenues, so you don't have to worry about ticket sales. I think most fans would be fine with taking a step back if the organization showed they had a plan to go two steps forward.

 

The other thing to think about is that if they did a retool for a season or two they could be on the way back up just as the new building opens up. If they wait I think this team will be going through a rebuild as the building opens up. Maybe waiting is the best way to go as far as ticket sales go, then people will show up to check out the new building even if the team sucks.

 

Either way I think this team needs a rebuild, it's just a matter of how they want to time it to maximize ticket sales.

 

Sorry just thinking out loud.

 

 

[cross16]

I just said the same thing in another thread. It seems to me this is a rare circumstance where taking a step back won’t hurt you. 
 

biggest thing I’d leverage is eat money to make deals. If they eat 1-2 mill on Gio does he become more attractive? Ryan? What if you eat some of Monahan/Gaudreau do your offers yet better? Your going to lose money eventually so what’s the point?

[JTech780]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

I just said the same thing in another thread. It seems to me this is a rare circumstance where taking a step back won’t hurt you. 
 

biggest thing I’d leverage is eat money to make deals. If they eat 1-2 mill on Gio does he become more attractive? Ryan? What if you eat some of Monahan/Gaudreau do your offers yet better? Your going to lose money eventually so what’s the point?

 

It makes sense. Really I can't see it being a hard sell to ownership, just have to tell them that we are going to cut payroll for a year or two and then come out better as the new building opens up.

 

I get that ownership is probably scared of going through what they went through in the 90's where this team was really bad for a long time and people stopped coming. I get why they would be nervous, but I think Ken King's legacy is that he really built a pride and a passion for the Flames in Calgary and I think the fans would understand that this team needs to take a step back to take two steps forward.

 

[robrob74]

15 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

It makes sense. Really I can't see it being a hard sell to ownership, just have to tell them that we are going to cut payroll for a year or two and then come out better as the new building opens up.

 

I get that ownership is probably scared of going through what they went through in the 90's where this team was really bad for a long time and people stopped coming. I get why they would be nervous, but I think Ken King's legacy is that he really built a pride and a passion for the Flames in Calgary and I think the fans would understand that this team needs to take a step back to take two steps forward.

 

 

I remember the team almost left and I asked my wife at the time if I could buy a season ticket to help in the ticket drive to save the team even though I lived in Prince Rupert or Vancouver at the time. I was ready to buy a game pack... 

 

Would the team really be in danger of leaving? Aren’t the fans in fear of going Nordiques, Minny 1.0 or Jets1.0 on this? 
 

maybe the owners are also afraid of having to lower ticket prices...

[The_People1]

Great thing is, we have some players young enough that we can keep them and have a quick retool and be competitive again.

 

In 2013 when we traded Iginla and Kipper retired, we had quite literally no emerging stars under 25-years-old.  This time around, Tkachuk is 23.  Mangiapane and Dube are under 24.  Valimaki, Hanifin, Andersson, and Mackey are all under 24.  That, plus Zary and Pelletier will be NHLers sooner rather than later.  We don't need to do a full on tear down like we did in 2013... we had no choice back then.

 

We should move Gaudreau, Monahan, and Giordano asap.  I don't mind keeping Backlund if we have to because his trade value is low anyways.  This means we will draft top 5 for the next 2 years but come year 3, we will storm back stronger.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I just said the same thing in another thread. It seems to me this is a rare circumstance where taking a step back won’t hurt you. 
 

biggest thing I’d leverage is eat money to make deals. If they eat 1-2 mill on Gio does he become more attractive? Ryan? What if you eat some of Monahan/Gaudreau do your offers yet better? Your going to lose money eventually so what’s the point?

 

Okay, I get you now.

I thought you were saying the opposite in the other thread because you mentioned turning it around.

 

I think it's a mistake to not trade Gio at this point.

He still has some value.

Even that alone does not signal re-tool as much as a change in direction.

 

We don't have too many players that you need to retain salary, but if you get better offers, then sure.

Gio - for sure, a team gets a top 4 LD for a bargain.

Ryan - at less tha $2m he's a 3C on a lot of teams.

Bennett at less than $1.5m worth more than he is at full salary

Gaudreau or Monahan at $4m - you better be getting a lot more than at full price.

[Thebrewcrew]

This roadtrip is going to go a long ways in deciding the fate of this season.

 

The Flames need to win 4 of 5 in Ontario at a minimum. The 3 against Ottawa are extremely important for a team that finds themselves 4pts out with no games in hand on any of the top 4. 

 

If they fail to do so, it might be time to have some hard conversations regarding the future of some key players. 

 

Also, I'm not completely confident that all 31 clubs will play 56 games. In that case the final standings will be based on pts%. Right now the Flames would be selecting 8th in the draft, pts% wise. Just something I found interesting. 

[MP5029]

21 hours ago, The_People1 said:

Great thing is, we have some players young enough that we can keep them and have a quick retool and be competitive again.

 

In 2013 when we traded Iginla and Kipper retired, we had quite literally no emerging stars under 25-years-old.  This time around, Tkachuk is 23.  Mangiapane and Dube are under 24.  Valimaki, Hanifin, Andersson, and Mackey are all under 24.  That, plus Zary and Pelletier will be NHLers sooner rather than later.  We don't need to do a full on tear down like we did in 2013... we had no choice back then.

 

We should move Gaudreau, Monahan, and Giordano asap.  I don't mind keeping Backlund if we have to because his trade value is low anyways.  This means we will draft top 5 for the next 2 years but come year 3, we will storm back stronger.

I agree but would not mind if we could move Dube and Backlund too...if memory serves both Zary and Pelletier are LW’s?

 

that’s still an extremely deep LW side:

 

Tachuck 

Manji

Zary

Pelletier 

 

on the D side we should be good for 4 more years with having:

 

Hanifin/Tanev 

Valimaki/Anderson

Kylington/Mackey 

 

the bottom pairing could stand some upgrading maybe, and also will need to keep in mind in 4 years Tanev would also need to be replaced but otherwise strong here and in net too.

 

it really boils down to needing 3 quality Ctrs and 4 quality RW’s (which we need now as it is) 

 

I guess what I’m saying is, moving out most of those players really won’t change much of anything other than getting younger, maybe a culture change and freeing up cap space, so it’s a win, win, win 👍😊

[Heartbreaker]

52 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

I agree but would not mind if we could move Dube and Backlund too...if memory serves both Zary and Pelletier are LW’s?

Zary is a centre, but I think he's a ways out. Hopefully they develop him, and then bring him up as a centre.

Love.

[jjgallow]

20 games in.

 

Could be worse.   Couldn't be a Lot worse.

 

Markstrom ranks a very unimpressive 35th overall in NHL goaltenders, not even the best goalie on this team.   Which isn't a shock because he has ... pretty much Never ranked well but all the Vancouver media insisted he was the NHL's best goalie until the moment he left, and anchored us with a dead weight team killing contract.

cool.   this is predictably what happens when you pay lots of money to acquire older goalies who historically let in lots of pucks, because the media told you it was a good idea.

 

Rasmus is a ray of sunshine, on the flip side.   But not much else sunshine to speak of.

 

I had to bump this thread after 10 games.   20 games in and it's already a hot thread, no bumping necessary.

 

Basically we're the NHL's Left Winger team.

 

This thread's Likely going to get hotter.  although we have a couple easy games ahead of us.

 

2022 draft looks fantastic

[Radster]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

20 games in.

 

Could be worse.   Couldn't be a Lot worse.

 

Markstrom ranks a very unimpressive 35th overall in NHL goaltenders, not even the best goalie on this team.   Which isn't a shock because he has ... pretty much Never ranked well but all the Vancouver media insisted he was the NHL's best goalie until the moment he left, and anchored us with a dead weight team killing contract.

cool.   this is predictably what happens when you pay lots of money to acquire older goalies who historically let in lots of pucks, because the media told you it was a good idea.

 

Rasmus is a ray of sunshine, on the flip side.   But not much else sunshine to speak of.

 

I had to bump this thread after 10 games.   20 games in and it's already a hot thread, no bumping necessary.

 

Basically we're the NHL's Left Winger team.

 

This thread's Likely going to get hotter.  although we have a couple easy games ahead of us.

 

2022 draft looks fantastic

Are you watching any games?  
pretty sure mangiapani is our best forward this year. Also tanev and haniffin are a great duo. The downside is our core. Mony and gaudreau  are and have been horrible lately with all the stupid passes being their top choice backlund has been terrible gio has one good game followed by 2 or 3 bad ones. Tkachuk isn't really doung much this year not sure why. Dube has disappeared. Valamaki isn't really doing much to impress me so far. But i do agree ras is  doing good. 

[rickross]

This Canadian division was supposed to be a saving grace for these western teams especially. Remember when the Flames were constantly faced with one of the worse travel schedules in the league and how it was potentially a disadvantage the Flames were dealt. Now we have the least gruelling travel schedule ever and these players already play tired. Flames can no longer use gruelling travel as an excuse for poor play. If this team somehow makes the playoffs it’s another 1st Rd exit, we scare no one in the NHL right now. We’re likely headed for another season of middling results, with a middling pick at the draft. 

[Sarasti]

I'm pretty encouraged by the effort this team has put out the last 2 games against Toronto.

I believe we will start to see a turn around if they continue to play this way. Especially with 5 of 6 coming against Ottawa.

 

Sure they still have some details to work on, but its been a much more consistent game all around than it was in our ganes against Vancouver and Edmonton.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, Radster said:

Are you watching any games?  

 

Love this line lol

 

2 hours ago, Radster said:

pretty sure mangiapani is our best forward this year.

 

That's a good thing?

 

2 hours ago, Radster said:

Also tanev and haniffin are a great duo.

 

Less damaging would be more accurate.

 

2 hours ago, Radster said:

The downside is our core.

 

That's a good thing?

 

2 hours ago, Radster said:

Mony and gaudreau  are and have been horrible lately with all the stupid passes being their top choice backlund has been terrible gio has one good game followed by 2 or 3 bad ones.

 

That's a good thing?

 

2 hours ago, Radster said:

Tkachuk isn't really doung much this year not sure why.

 

That's a good thing?

 

 

2 hours ago, Radster said:

Dube has disappeared.

 

That's a good thing?

 

2 hours ago, Radster said:

Valamaki isn't really doing much to impress me so far.

 

That's a good thing?

 

2 hours ago, Radster said:

But i do agree ras is  doing good. 

 

Yeah.   The kid's ok.  Not a fist liner on a good team.  Not an all-star.    But we keep this one.  Strong second liner even on a good team, if he keeps developing.

 

 

Thank you...for correcting me lol

[robrob74]

29 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Love this line lol

 

 

That's a good thing?

 

 

Less damaging would be more accurate.

 

 

That's a good thing?

 

 

That's a good thing?

 

 

That's a good thing?

 

 

 

That's a good thing?

 

 

That's a good thing?

 

 

Yeah.   The kid's ok.  Not a fist liner on a good team.  Not an all-star.    But we keep this one.  Strong second liner even on a good team, if he keeps developing.

 

 

Thank you...for correcting me lol

 

This is why I hate statistics. If you’re really watching the goalie has been the best player 90% of the time. Even when they’re good they’re getting scored on because the team has stunk it up. If it weren’t for them we’d be last in the league. They’ve been the best players and had the team known how to play D or know how to give an honest effort, their numbers would be top 10. Goalies are not the problem and if you think they are, you’re coming from a biased perspective. 
 

I watched Kipper lose 5-3 while playing for San Jose and he was their best player that game. I sat right behind him 15 rows up. He was amazing but let in 5. I think that’s what we are seeing here. And I think anyone thinking that goaltending can cover up this teams mistakes is kidding themselves. They can for some time, but not a whole season. 

[travel_dude]

9 hours ago, jjgallow said:

20 games in.

 

Could be worse.   Couldn't be a Lot worse.

 

Markstrom ranks a very unimpressive 35th overall in NHL goaltenders, not even the best goalie on this team.   Which isn't a shock because he has ... pretty much Never ranked well but all the Vancouver media insisted he was the NHL's best goalie until the moment he left, and anchored us with a dead weight team killing contract.

cool.   this is predictably what happens when you pay lots of money to acquire older goalies who historically let in lots of pucks, because the media told you it was a good idea.

 

Rasmus is a ray of sunshine, on the flip side.   But not much else sunshine to speak of.

 

I had to bump this thread after 10 games.   20 games in and it's already a hot thread, no bumping necessary.

 

Basically we're the NHL's Left Winger team.

 

This thread's Likely going to get hotter.  although we have a couple easy games ahead of us.

 

2022 draft looks fantastic

 

There will always be negatives from some fans.  

Some deadweight on the team and perplexing coaching/identity.

I don't see a team that is lead by the right coach, so you can blames the goalie and skaters if you like.

The so-called coaching is a failed state.

Makes the goalie's look bad and any lines look worse.

Didn't learn anything from coaching in the playoffs.

 

"But, the team has had X coaches and can't get it together".

Sure, we can continue to point to the players and say they aren't capable of winning no matter who the coach is.

When have we actually had a NHL coach with any success as a head coach?

Ward and his 2011 Bruins, that he wasn't even the head coach?

Julien fired twice since then.

[sak22]

So picking on a goalie's stats, which were incredible up until his last 2 games, and performance in said 2 games may have been altered because of injury,.  Not at all surprised, when you have it out for him to begin with.

[cross16]

21 minutes ago, sak22 said:

So picking on a goalie's stats, which were incredible up until his last 2 games, and performance in said 2 games may have been altered because of injury,.  Not at all surprised, when you have it out for him to begin with.

 

Confirmation bias is a funny thing for people who just want to troll and get responses. 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, sak22 said:

So picking on a goalie's stats, which were incredible up until his last 2 games, and performance in said 2 games may have been altered because of injury,.  Not at all surprised, when you have it out for him to begin with.

 

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Confirmation bias is a funny thing for people who just want to troll and get responses. 

 

Math.

 

Try it.

 

then maybe you wouldn't be so shocked and angry like I see you get in every gameday thread.   Markstrom has always let in a lot of pucks at the NHL level.   Nothing is new here.   Chaulk it up to a couple bad games if it makes you feel better and you don't want to look at his last 10 years.   I'm not the one that gets emotional in here, I just use facts.   facts are not the enemy.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

There will always be negatives from some fans.  

Some deadweight on the team and perplexing coaching/identity.

I don't see a team that is lead by the right coach, so you can blames the goalie and skaters if you like.

The so-called coaching is a failed state.

Makes the goalie's look bad and any lines look worse.

Didn't learn anything from coaching in the playoffs.

 

"But, the team has had X coaches and can't get it together".

Sure, we can continue to point to the players and say they aren't capable of winning no matter who the coach is.

When have we actually had a NHL coach with any success as a head coach?

Ward and his 2011 Bruins, that he wasn't even the head coach?

Julien fired twice since then.

 

Don't Entirely disagree.    I don't actually think Ward is the problem.   But neither you or I are NHL calibre GMs, so it's okay if we disagree.

 

Let's say it's the coach's fault.    And the last coach, it was his fault.  and the coach before that, it was his fault.

 

Who's....Fault...is That?

 

 

[LouCifer]

20 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Don't Entirely disagree.    I don't actually think Ward is the problem.   But neither you or I are NHL calibre GMs, so it's okay if we disagree.

 

Let's say it's the coach's fault.    And the last coach, it was his fault.  and the coach before that, it was his fault.

 

Who's....Fault...is That?

 

 

Hey JJ. The way you present it does look pretty bad on the GM. However, I’d go an additional “who’s fault is that?” Level and point the finger at those that give Treliving his marching orders and parameters to work with. 
 

I’ve read and heard from multiple media sources countless times that BT is one of the most active GMs in the league. I think LeBrun mentioned it in an article recently as well, saying something along the lines that he calls every GM every 10 days or so to check in. For me, that’s what I want in a GM for the flames as opposed to someone who sits on his laurels and enjoys the status quo. The interesting thing with BT however is that it appears that he’s done just that - maintain the status quo - but, I said it in a past post and I’ll say it again, I don’t think Calgary is an attractive destination for coaches and players alike. BT has to work within the confines handed to him by ownership, and against players and coaches that have no desire to come to Calgary. 
 

However, it’s not all doom and gloom. Look at our neighbours to the north. They got a McDavid, and suddenly Edmonton was an attractive destination to play in. My evident desire to land Eichel is two-fold: 1. To finally have a bonafide #1 C, and 2. to draw additional talent to Calgary (coaches as well as players). And this idea does also apply to your preference to build the team from the ground up. 1st overall picks aren’t always generational players, but they do typically turn into impact players. If the flames tanked and were able to get a player of McDavid or Matthews talent, that would go a long way to acquiring additional talent in my mind. I think I just prefer to try to do so by acquiring an Eichel at this point in time, as opposed to blowing it up. Just my personal preference. 

[travel_dude]

22 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Don't Entirely disagree.    I don't actually think Ward is the problem.   But neither you or I are NHL calibre GMs, so it's okay if we disagree.

 

Let's say it's the coach's fault.    And the last coach, it was his fault.  and the coach before that, it was his fault.

 

Who's....Fault...is That?

 

 

 

If you can find any positives in the way the bench is being managed, please speak up.

Doesn't matter what previous coaches have preached or done.

Only matters if you think the right one is there now.

 

[jjgallow]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you can find any positives in the way the bench is being managed, please speak up.

Doesn't matter what previous coaches have preached or done.

Only matters if you think the right one is there now.

 

 

I like Ward.   But I want BT out, more than I like Ward lol.   I'm not very motivated to take that debate up lol.   I'm not big on blaming the coach.   But if blaming the coach leads us to the same conclusion about BT (and I think it does), then... 

 

Blame away    No arguements here.

[jjgallow]

35 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

Hey JJ. The way you present it does look pretty bad on the GM. However, I’d go an additional “who’s fault is that?” Level and point the finger at those that give Treliving his marching orders and parameters to work with. 
 

I’ve read and heard from multiple media sources countless times that BT is one of the most active GMs in the league. I think LeBrun mentioned it in an article recently as well, saying something along the lines that he calls every GM every 10 days or so to check in. For me, that’s what I want in a GM for the flames as opposed to someone who sits on his laurels and enjoys the status quo. The interesting thing with BT however is that it appears that he’s done just that - maintain the status quo - but, I said it in a past post and I’ll say it again, I don’t think Calgary is an attractive destination for coaches and players alike. BT has to work within the confines handed to him by ownership, and against players and coaches that have no desire to come to Calgary. 
 

However, it’s not all doom and gloom. Look at our neighbours to the north. They got a McDavid, and suddenly Edmonton was an attractive destination to play in. My evident desire to land Eichel is two-fold: 1. To finally have a bonafide #1 C, and 2. to draw additional talent to Calgary (coaches as well as players). And this idea does also apply to your preference to build the team from the ground up. 1st overall picks aren’t always generational players, but they do typically turn into impact players. If the flames tanked and were able to get a player of McDavid or Matthews talent, that would go a long way to acquiring additional talent in my mind. I think I just prefer to try to do so by acquiring an Eichel at this point in time, as opposed to blowing it up. Just my personal preference. 

 

I cannot deny this.

 

Few on here would call me optimistic.    But the reality is that when I claim this to be a GM issue and not an ownership issue, I'm being optimistic.

 

This is clearly beyond players and coaches, in my mind.   And even if you blame the players/coaches, at some point it takes you back to the GM.

 

I have to have some hope that a better GM could either solve this, or negotiate a better direction with owners.   Which possibly comes down to finding a GM who can explain in business terms that building a championship team can generate similar or more revenue without unnacceptable risk levels.  Or, they get strapped for cash and are forced to rebuild properly.

 

I think we have to have some hope that his is a solvable problem while recognising that only ownership knows if this hope is warranted.