Blow It Up?

[jjgallow]

19 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I suspect it's Pleau and Sigalet.

I've got no issues with other scouting

 

 

oh well in that case I still feel the blame is squarely on BT, he's not supposed to be answering to them and I'm not even sure why he's utilizing them the way he is.

[jjgallow]

36 minutes ago, cross16 said:

The Canucks bottomed out because they tried to keep winning with the Sedins by giving out horrible contracts, several bad trades and sewering their cap and team in the process. Deserve some credit for picking Petterson but also very lucky that other teams passed on him in a strong draft. I’m not trying to put Benning down as he is a good drafter but I don’t think the Canucks are a model for success at all, nor a model rebuild. 

 

I agree, I am confused as to why we are using the Canucks as any kind of measuring stick other than what Not to do.  This in itself is saddening.

 

36 minutes ago, cross16 said:

they did exactly what the Flames did in their “rebuild” and the difference is the Canucks got Petterson and the Flames got Bennett. 

 

Also, the Canucks didn't trade away their entire first line of defense after those picks.   They didn't gift Hughes to other teams like we did with both Hamilton and Fox.

 

Canucks made some questionable picks too, like Juolevi.    I agree they got lucky.   And I don't think they got lucky enough to make anyone jealous.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

The Canucks bottomed out because they tried to keep winning with the Sedins by giving out horrible contracts, several bad trades and sewering their cap and team in the process. Deserve some credit for picking Petterson but also very lucky that other teams passed on him in a strong draft. I’m not trying to put Benning down as he is a good drafter but I don’t think the Canucks are a model for success at all, nor a model rebuild. 
 

they did exactly what the Flames did in their “rebuild” and the difference is the Canucks got Petterson and the Flames got Bennett. 

 

They were also lottery losers A few times dropping a few spots. They’ve been lottery losers more times than not and teams that are big lottery winners push teams like the Canucks down the draft board. Even just 1-2 spots could be huge. And it happened 2-3 times to them.

[sak22]

11 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

for me, it goes to show that when you have a vision or draft pedigree/ smarts then stick to it. Bending was touted as a draft guy and then like a lot of GM’s he tried to rush it by trading. They gave up a 2nd for a talented underachieving player, and then found out he was soft. Then like you said took Joulevi, but then hit on other draft picks. You’re right, they leapfrogged the Flames this year. It’s sad because the Flames looked like on a good trajectory. They hit on Pettersson, and got a stud D. 
 

the thing is, they did go rebuild and were one of the teams that lost the lottery on every chance they got, and dropped in most drafts. I think it has been 2-3 drafts where they fell big time! But they got the two things needed, a stud #1C&D. Hughes is a gifted offensive D. 
 

I also think they did what the Flames did. They kept the Twins until they retired but wanted their mentorship for the young, like we did in keeping Gio and Glencross. Although we traded Glennie. Edler wouldn’t wave his full no trade. 
 

I think the Flames started to get away from what us actually working, drafting by trading 1sts and 2nds. Not hitting on Benny has hurt as well. 
 

it isn’t that the canucks didn’t rebuild, they were and sped it up with good drafting and picking up character along the way. We aren’t far behind. 
 

horvat is as good as Backlund or better. Pettersson better than Monahan, is more akin to Gaudreau I guess. Boesser is their monahan. Miller their Tkachuk. We should be better, but the character is not their. 
 

is that the players, or is a coach supposed to get it out of them? 

Did this team actually turn the corner or was it a fluke?  From what I saw they wouldn't have won a round with average goaltending, I don't think Demko is the second coming of Hasek either.  One thing that stands out for me about the Canucks is the 3 years under Green they are 20-12-3 in October, the rest they are 80-81-25, why is that relevant?  Because the start of the playoffs was basically October.  I'm not going to discredit this playoffs or the Stars or Lightning, but this playoffs isn't a measuring stick for how teams are emerging either, the 4 month break between season and playoffs is a one off.

 

The 2020 Canucks were a bigger fluke than the 2015 Flames, and the 2015 Flames were a massive fluke.

[rocketdoctor]

19 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I agree, I am confused as to why we are using the Canucks as any kind of measuring stick other than what Not to do.  This in itself is saddening.

 

 

Also, the Canucks didn't trade away their entire first line of defense after those picks.   They didn't gift Hughes to other teams like we did with both Hamilton and Fox.

 

Canucks made some questionable picks too, like Juolevi.    I agree they got lucky.   And I don't think they got lucky enough to make anyone jealous.

 

We didn't gift Fox.  He was never going to sign here.  Trying to lay the blame for that on Treliving is just daft.

 

Similar to that other D we lost out of college to NYR but he didn't pan out so we are not blaming anyone.  It's only because Fox is looking like he is going to be a legit 1st liner that people are complaining that we lost him.

 

Personanly I am glad we got rid of Hamilton.  I think we got the best player in the deal with Lindholm.

[cross16]

22 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

They were also lottery losers A few times dropping a few spots. They’ve been lottery losers more times than not and teams that are big lottery winners push teams like the Canucks down the draft board. Even just 1-2 spots could be huge. And it happened 2-3 times to them.

 

4 times. worst was 2016 when they went from 3-5 but 2 of the other times it was 1 spot only. When they moved back they also still got Petterson and Hughes who were very likely their original picks anyway so while it looks like bad luck, I don't really think it changed anything. 2016 maybe but they were also pretty adamant they were look for a D. 

[CheersMan]

6 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

We didn't gift Fox.  He was never going to sign here.  Trying to lay the blame for that on Treliving is just daft.

 

Similar to that other D we lost out of college to NYR but he didn't pan out so we are not blaming anyone.  It's only because Fox is looking like he is going to be a legit 1st liner that people are complaining that we lost him.

 

Personanly I am glad we got rid of Hamilton.  I think we got the best player in the deal with Lindholm.

Fox continued on and gave CAR the middle finger salute as well. Punk Kids.

[robrob74]

18 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

Fox continued on and gave CAR the middle finger salute as well. Punk Kids.

 

but they still got a 2nd rounder for him whereas we got nothing. It’s opinion, and I get that we all don’t agree, but I just saw Hamilton’s value higher at the time as he was clearly the best player at the time, and a top pair RHS RD.  Before that deal Lindholm averaged less than 40 points per game so can’t really say it was an upgrade at the time. Everyone was saying they hoped he could do more at the time, and could be a top 6 not a top liner. 
 

Hanifin was also and is still viewed as a #4D, not any higher. I don’t think his upside is higher than that. We did gift a 2nd rounder to the Canes in that deal. I just think it needed to be a separate deal is all. 
 

we can all be right in this situation because all of our opinions are our opinions. Some of us feel the deal was even with just Hamilton and Ferland. While others believe they Canes may not have done the deal without Fox. But that’s negotiation. I would not have done the deal at the time. 
 

Lindholm was happy to sign his deal with the Flames because he was probably worth a bit less. The price was kind of high for someone who didn’t really breach 40 points. The same goes for Hanifin. I’d suggest he’s about 500K overpriced but that’s just me. 

[cross16]

It's going to be interesting to see some of the analysis of this trade next summer with the Canes either don't have Hamilton or are paying him roughly what Hanifin and Lindholm make combined. 

[jjgallow]

8 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

We didn't gift Fox.  He was never going to sign here.  Trying to lay the blame for that on Treliving is just daft.

 

Good thing for Colorado you weren't in charge of the Lindros trade.  Sorry but defending that "deal" is a dead end with no way out.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

Similar to that other D we lost out of college to NYR but he didn't pan out so we are not blaming anyone.  It's only because Fox is looking like he is going to be a legit 1st liner that people are complaining that we lost him.

 

Well hey we have some common ground!  Yes that is EXACTLY why people are pissed and it is ALSO why people were pissed IMMEDIDATELY after the trade, when he Also looked like he would shape up to be a legit first liner which was obvious to everyone except apparently BT.

 

I'm sorry but he was a frist-line forecast with everything going for him, he was a RHS D, probably the most valuable position in hockey (I'd argue goal but that's a whole thread).

 

You Don't....EVER...trade...your elite RHS D prospects.

 

EVER.

 

Trading two at the same time is epic failure, just assuring that at least one will haunt you.  In this case, both of them.   Erixon was a better trade but still not great.    Lots of blame there too.

 

8 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

Personanly I am glad we got rid of Hamilton.  I think we got the best player in the deal with Lindholm.

 

We didn't even get the 2nd most valuable player and I like Lindholm.

[jjgallow]

 

Well, now we really are blowing it up.

 

Just signed Markstrom who is Worse than Talbot to a 6-year boat-anchor team-killing death-deal.

 

On the bright side, most of us will still be alive 6 years from now when the deal expires, there's loads of great drafts coming up and the chances of Treliving lasting through those 6 years is basically zero.

 

Let the rebuild begin.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well, now we really are blowing it up.

 

Just signed Markstrom who is Worse than Talbot to a 6-year boat-anchor team-killing death-deal.

 

On the bright side, most of us will still be alive 6 years from now when the deal expires, there's loads of great drafts coming up and the chances of Treliving lasting through those 6 years is basically zero.

 

Let the rebuild begin.

For sure it wasnt the goalie/deal that I wanted but at least it could have been worse. I dont mind the goalie, AAv is about $1m too much but the term is whats bothering me.  If you look at the FA all signings they are all 4 years or less except for Markstroms and Krugs. With uncertainty in the season, cap, and expenses for the foreseeable future there was a reason no one was commiting long term and in a normal scenario term wouldnt be as much a concern, but we dont even know when theyre going to play again.

 

Ideally I would have liked to re sign Talbot and trade BSD for Korprisalo but the odds are that option wasnt even available.

 

At least its not $6.25 AAV for Murray.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well, now we really are blowing it up.

 

Just signed Markstrom who is Worse than Talbot to a 6-year boat-anchor team-killing death-deal.

 

On the bright side, most of us will still be alive 6 years from now when the deal expires, there's loads of great drafts coming up and the chances of Treliving lasting through those 6 years is basically zero.

 

Let the rebuild begin.

 

Markstrom is better than Talbot.  But Tanev is a downgrade to Brodie.  So BT did a slight of hand to buy optimism but really just moved the team sideways.

 

The real killer will be in 4 years when Tanev is an absolute anchor and Markstrom is on the decline.  But for now, no rebuild.  We will be yet again, a 6/7/8th seed playoff bound.  

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

For sure it wasnt the goalie/deal that I wanted but at least it could have been worse. I dont mind the goalie, AAv is about $1m too much but the term is whats bothering me.  If you look at the FA all signings they are all 4 years or less except for Markstroms and Krugs. With uncertainty in the season, cap, and expenses for the foreseeable future there was a reason no one was commiting long term and in a normal scenario term wouldnt be as much a concern, but we dont even know when theyre going to play again.

 

Ideally I would have liked to re sign Talbot and trade BSD for Korprisalo but the odds are that option wasnt even available.

 

At least its not $6.25 AAV for Murray.

 

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Markstrom is better than Talbot.  But Tanev is a downgrade to Brodie.  So BT did a slight of hand to buy optimism but really just moved the team sideways.

 

The real killer will be in 4 years when Tanev is an absolute anchor and Markstrom is on the decline.  But for now, no rebuild.  We will be yet again, a 6/7/8th seed playoff bound.  

 

What bothers me is that they were desperate enough for mediocre goaltending that they were willing to entirely overpay for it, yet the thought of upgrading at the draft to get Askarov (who will see NHL minutes soon) or get a young goalie at the fraction of the price wasn't even a consideration to them.

 

The move screams "we will do anything at all costs to be a mediocre team, including sacrifice all chances of being a great team".

 

@The_People1 maybe,  maybe they stay where they are.   Perhaps the last thing they have going for them is Geoff Ward, who in my mind is making them look better than they really are.   But I don't think it's enough.    Also BT could still screw that up.    

 

We also have to account for the decline of:

Markstrom  (yeah I think he'll decline.  He Could continue to be good to 35 but the chances of that are maybe 25%)

Giordano (this will accelerate in each of his final years)

TJ/Tanev situation (downgrade/decline)

Lucic (this will accelerate in each of his final years)

Backlund

Derek Ryan

Monahan (well worn, he will decline early)

Gaudreau (yeah I'm calling that too)

 

The loss of:

Jankwoski

Valimaki (or who we'd hoped he'd be)

Bennet (is he still here?)

Unforseen Injuries.   The Flames have been lucky here, but when you have a thin team injuries can be devastating.

 

Offset by......the improvement of....

?

Maybe Tkachuk ?  Not sure we'll notice if all his linemates decline

Dube? I don't see it.

Rasmus ... maybe a very mild improvement?

Literally nobody from their AHL system

Nobody else from their prospect system, perhaps Poirier and Wolf have outside chances in 2+ years.

 

 

 

When you have nothing in the pipeline and every move you make makes you a little more mediocre and old, eventually you run out of cards to play.

 

In my mind, and perhaps this is the only silver lining.... the rebuild has begun.

[pikey7883]

23 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

What bothers me is that they were desperate enough for mediocre goaltending that they were willing to entirely overpay for it, yet the thought of upgrading at the draft to get Askarov (who will see NHL minutes soon) or get a young goalie at the fraction of the price wasn't even a consideration to them.

 

The move screams "we will do anything at all costs to be a mediocre team, including sacrifice all chances of being a great team".

 

@The_People1 maybe,  maybe they stay where they are.   Perhaps the last thing they have going for them is Geoff Ward, who in my mind is making them look better than they really are.   But I don't think it's enough.    Also BT could still screw that up.    

 

We also have to account for the decline of:

Markstrom  (yeah I think he'll decline.  He Could continue to be good to 35 but the chances of that are maybe 25%)

Giordano (this will accelerate in each of his final years)

TJ/Tanev situation (downgrade/decline)

Lucic (this will accelerate in each of his final years)

Backlund

Derek Ryan

Monahan (well worn, he will decline early)

Gaudreau (yeah I'm calling that too)

 

The loss of:

Jankwoski

Valimaki (or who we'd hoped he'd be)

Bennet (is he still here?)

Unforseen Injuries.   The Flames have been lucky here, but when you have a thin team injuries can be devastating.

 

Offset by......the improvement of....

?

Maybe Tkachuk ?  Not sure we'll notice if all his linemates decline

Dube? I don't see it.

Rasmus ... maybe a very mild improvement?

Literally nobody from their AHL system

Nobody else from their prospect system, perhaps Poirier and Wolf have outside chances in 2+ years.

 

 

 

When you have nothing in the pipeline and every move you make makes you a little more mediocre and old, eventually you run out of cards to play.

 

In my mind, and perhaps this is the only silver lining.... the rebuild has begun.

So your one of those glass half full kind of guys, good to know, lol

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, pikey7883 said:

So your one of those glass half full kind of guys, good to know, lol

 

If wanting a Stanley cup in Calgary is glass half full, then yes that's me

Even if that means preparing for old age.

[jjgallow]

10 games in.

 

Bump.

 

see y'all in another 10 games.

[CheersMan]

30 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

10 games in.

 

Bump.

 

see y'all in another 10 games.

Make it 40 games. That will give you extra time to caress your U16 hockey cards.

[rickross]

Gotta love how ready we are to hit that button. It’s early but not looking great. This inability to score first and chase the game for 60 mins has got to stop. Flames games are pretty much over by the 2nd period. They struggle to gain a lead let alone hold one when they do. Markstrom has been a good addition but our defence ain’t getting it done. Generally, the Flames aren’t scaring anyone right now

[Radster]

Gotta say half the team is still on holiday. Tkachuk. Backlund. Gio. Nesterov. Mony. New addition leivo n simon are crap. Lucic slower than ever not sure about Ritich this year nesterov and nordstom are Meh Valamaki isn't what he was looking like he could be. we have a lot of dead weight to carry this year. Hopefully these guys wake up its a 56 game season n were are poopin da bed.  
oh did i mention the biggest dead wardo. What a useless coach. Im getting really tired of his crap. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

25 minutes ago, Radster said:

Gotta say half the team is still on holiday. Tkachuk. Backlund. Gio. Nesterov. Mony. New addition leivo n simon are crap. Lucic slower than ever not sure about Ritich this year nesterov and nordstom are Meh Valamaki isn't what he was looking like he could be. we have a lot of dead weight to carry this year. Hopefully these guys wake up its a 56 game season n were are poopin da bed.  
oh did i mention the biggest dead wardo. What a useless coach. Im getting really tired of his crap. 

Not sure what games you're referring to but other than some early season jitters he's been one on the brightest spots as of late. 

 

Quite the harsh criticism for a coach who has barely been at the helm for a full season yet.  Sure theres some coaching decisions and practices I dont agree with but let's not start trying to run him out of town yet.  

 

 

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, Radster said:

Gotta say half the team is still on holiday. Tkachuk. Backlund. Gio. Nesterov. Mony. New addition leivo n simon are crap. Lucic slower than ever not sure about Ritich this year nesterov and nordstom are Meh Valamaki isn't what he was looking like he could be. we have a lot of dead weight to carry this year. Hopefully these guys wake up its a 56 game season n were are poopin da bed.  
oh did i mention the biggest dead wardo. What a useless coach. Im getting really tired of his crap. 

 

yup! Tkachuk is elite, Monahan is elite. 
 

we aren’t getting anywhere with their elite play. They’re not leaders. They’re all talk and no action. A team of, “we gotta’s.” 
 

they look good at times. I’ve actually not minded Monahan this year. He looks more engaged and seems to be a bit better allround.

 

Gaudreau has been the best player. Team needs to follow his lead...

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Not sure what games you're referring to but other than some early season jitters he's been one on the brightest spots as of late. 

 

Quite the harsh criticism for a coach who has barely been at the helm for a full season yet.  Sure theres some coaching decisions and practices I dont agree with but let's not start trying to run him out of town yet.  

 

 

since his winning streak to start his head coaching career with Calgary, Ward has been a near .500 coach. Since that streak he is as 12-10-1 to finish the season (counting the play-in round where we had a major advantage of playing against a severely injured Jets team). I get it, those games count. 
before the play in round, after that 7 game win streak he went 9-9-3.

 

this year’s record he is 4-5-1

 

16-15-4 is his record since the seven game win streak the flames went on last year. That’s including the play-in round. If you count playoffs it’s us 18-19-4.

 

I think this is closer to what he is rather than what he was to start the year last year. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

since his winning streak to start his head coaching career with Calgary, Ward has been a near .500 coach. Since that streak he is as 12-10-1 to finish the season (counting the play-in round where we had a major advantage of playing against a severely injured Jets team). I get it, those games count. 
before the play in round, after that 7 game win streak he went 9-9-3.

 

this year’s record he is 4-5-1

 

16-15-4 is his record since the seven game win streak the flames went on last year. That’s including the play-in round. If you count playoffs it’s us 18-19-4.

 

I think this is closer to what he is rather than what he was to start the year last year. 

I agree the #s dont look good and like everyone else I dont know what to do about the Jekyll and Hyde persona that has plagued this team forever. One thing I will point out is the Flames have had 4 coaches since 2012 with basically no change in the end results. Thats going to speak volumes when times come to attract new talent or retain current assets. As of now I dont think Ward is the problem......or the solution. 

[ABC923]

My biggest problem with Ward is simply that there were elite coaches available that we could have hired and chose not to. Not his fault he’s just a middling coach, it’s trelivings fault for extending him.

 

Anyway, it’s still too early to be blowing it up just yet. Give it another 15 games or so.