Blow It Up?

[kehatch]

These types of conversations are relevant in terms of "should we mix up the core". But they aren't relevant in terms of "should we rebuild". 

 

It was during Sutters term as a GM. At that point the Flames hadn't made the playoffs in forever and our core was all past their best before date. Our refusal to rebuild then just devalued our assets and extended the rebuild. The Flames also were so desperate to make the playoffs we were trading assets for non futures, trading futures, and taking on bad contracts that would make the rebuild more difficult. 

 

It isn't relevant now though.

 

I understand the conversation, the Flames don't appear good enough to contend and there aren't any realistic options to bridge that gap beyond a rebuild. 

 

But the Flames have made the playoffs 4 of the last 7 seasons without missing the playoffs in consecutive seasons. We won a conference once, and have a core that is all in their prime. That doesn't even factor in the reality of a new arena. 

 

Doing a full rebuild isn't even a question penciled in on the corner of someone's notebook. If Treliving went to the ownership with a rebuild plan they would fire him as soon as he sobered up. It can't, won't, and will not happen. And that's not a Flames thing. It's true for every team in the NHL, and every other professional sports team for that matter. 

 

If the Flames finish bottom 5 a couple of seasons in a row, or something equally dire, then it's a conversation. Right now it's a debate on if Batman could beat up Mighty Mouse. Enjoy it if you want to, but don't expect to come up with anything useful. 

[zima]

19 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, you take as truth what an Oilers blogger says?

Yes, that is what he is, and he also is the Kraken blogger.

He knows nothing about the Flames other than when we have played the Oilers.

 

So then you believe he is just Bio's and has no knowledge what so ever about any team but the ones he wrights about ? I think thats a little Bio's on your part I have read your info on here for yrs and it seems to me even though you are a Flames fan through and through you are very up on other teams and there deficiencies  and there strength's so even though he is a Oiler Blogger I don't see why he can't be fair in his determination about teams in this division just saying. By the way I do enjoy reading your stuff I find you and most on  here very knowledgeable and on point  and I do appreciate the fact you guys mostly ignore my lack of spelling and where to end a paragraph. 

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, zima said:

So then you believe he is just Bio's and has no knowledge what so ever about any team but the ones he wrights about ? I think thats a little Bio's on your part I have read your info on here for yrs and it seems to me even though you are a Flames fan through and through you are very up on other teams and there deficiencies  and there strength's so even though he is a Oiler Blogger I don't see why he can't be fair in his determination about teams in this division just saying. By the way I do enjoy reading your stuff I find you and most on  here very knowledgeable and on point  and I do appreciate the fact you guys mostly ignore my lack of spelling and where to end a paragraph. 

 

We get the gist most times, so no worries.

 

As far as bloggers, I read most of the ones for the Oilers and Flames.  And I find the Oilers bloggers are a combo of realistic people, fan boys, Oiler mouthpieces and general lack of understanding of hockey.  Sean has posted reasonable stuff about signings, trades and such.  But his reasonableness gets away from him when he starts talking about the Flames.  He can be fair and also so biased he is called out by Oiler fans.  

 

I'm more critical of particular moves by some teams.  I don't know the east as well, but I do see a certain amount of games.

[zima]

I guess it's Bias not Bio's not a mother board  my bad lol thanks for straighten that out for me Google couldn't tell the difference 

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, zima said:

I guess it's Bias not Bio's not a mother board  my bad lol thanks for straighten that out for me Google couldn't tell the difference 

 

I have a low opinion of the Oilers, no doubt.  I think they are missing the boat on improving the team.

They could have a real competitive team and they have several players now that could change part of their game to less goals for and less goals against.

But the focus is always "more scoring".

Get Barrie who puts up points but is a liibility.

Lose Larsson who was decent and tough to play against; not the best player in the world but decent.

Bring in Hyman to score goals.

He's a good player but scoring is not what they need more of.

[zima]

Trust me when I say I very much dislike the OiIers even if they were playing for the cup I would vote for any other team to win except perhaps the knuckle heads who I think I dislike just as much and I also know they would not play for the cup same division but me thinks you get the picture the only team I ever watch play is the Flames hence why I know so little about whats going on in the real world . Sorry strike that I will watch U20 juniors or any other IIHF Game looking forward to watching the women's tonight I hope Canada can do well tonight even though they lost there best player.  

[jjgallow]

Soooo...

 

Should we use this thread or start another one lol.

 

I don't actually think we will blow it up...yet...but it's coming

[travel_dude]

24 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Soooo...

 

Should we use this thread or start another one lol.

 

I don't actually think we will blow it up...yet...but it's coming

 

Might as well hold off until key pieces are traded.  

[jjgallow]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Might as well hold off until key pieces are traded.  

 

Does it count if we give them away for free...

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Does it count if we give them away for free...

 

This thread is questioning whether we should blow it up.   It was a great idea when we thought there was a chance, but now we are at a point where it won't happen.  If there is a signal (one ping, one ping only), then you know it's gonna happen.  This is more of one player wanting out.    

[jjgallow]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

This thread is questioning whether we should blow it up.   It was a great idea when we thought there was a chance, but now we are at a point where it won't happen.  If there is a signal (one ping, one ping only), then you know it's gonna happen.  This is more of one player wanting out.    

 

True,  it's not likely to happen in the traditional sense, looking to be much more painful.    IMHO when we start drafting in the top 10 again (not sure BT won't trade the pick away though), IMHO that is the same effect

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

True,  it's not likely to happen in the traditional sense, looking to be much more painful.    IMHO when we start drafting in the top 10 again (not sure BT won't trade the pick away though), IMHO that is the same effect

 

Well, we have enough of a team without JH to be at worst a bubble team.  when we get to the point that we are closing in on a top 10 pick, I am sure you will see a bit of a selloff (or maybe Pat Seiloff).

[jjgallow]

Let's see lol

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, we have enough of a team without JH to be at worst a bubble team.  when we get to the point that we are closing in on a top 10 pick, I am sure you will see a bit of a selloff (or maybe Pat Seiloff).

i actually think bubble looking from the outside. I just think natural improvements from some teams will shift us out of the playoffs, at this point. It depends if we sign someone though.

[The_People1]

So everything hinges on Tkachuk now.  If he takes a one year qualifying offer to go UFA next summer then he's decided for us that we will blow the thing up.  If he signs long term, then we can build around him and try for the Cup a few more seasons.

[travel_dude]

17 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

i actually think bubble looking from the outside. I just think natural improvements from some teams will shift us out of the playoffs, at this point. It depends if we sign someone though.

 

We had the same comments last year.  We shouldn't have been as good as we were.  And that was without a top 10 PP.  That was with Ritchie and Lucic playing at time middle 6.  That was with Monahan trolling the 4th line.  What we saw from teams today was a decision to try to follow COL's winning formula.  That after a decision to follow Tampa.  

 

Lots of player movement.  Goalies moving all over the place.  That works so sendom.  We haven't really done anything yet.  No idea of the final team we ice.  From a subtraction point of view, we are down one star.  That takes us down a few notches.  If we replace him, we are closer to the team we were.  

 

 

[Thebrewcrew]

The absolute earliest I can see the Flames considering a rebuild is after the 22/23 season.

 

Tkachuk could be a UFA

Vladar will be due a raise. Look at what Georgiev went for, the Flames could get something like two 3rd's and a 5th.

Lindholm, Backlund, Hanifin, Tanev and Toffoli all have 1yr left. All players on fair deals, there would be a ton of interest. 

[MP5029]

On 7/14/2022 at 1:07 AM, Thebrewcrew said:

The absolute earliest I can see the Flames considering a rebuild is after the 22/23 season.

 

Tkachuk could be a UFA

Vladar will be due a raise. Look at what Georgiev went for, the Flames could get something like two 3rd's and a 5th.

Lindholm, Backlund, Hanifin, Tanev and Toffoli all have 1yr left. All players on fair deals, there would be a ton of interest. 

I would agree with this only if Tachuck and

Manji don’t sign long term…if they do, id suggest Lindholm, Backlund, Hanifin Tanev and Toffoil all Be moved next year anyway to help build around Manji and Tachuck moving forward 

[bosn111]

Both Tkachuk and Mangiapane are very good players who any team would love to have, but neither one is a player you build around. I know some fans have a love for Tkachuk and think he is a future captain, but if he is, the team loses any respect it had in the league as many players from many teams have zero respect for him.

 

Tkachuk has loads of talent, but he is no MacKinnon, McDavid, Matthews etc. Many fans also say you don’t build a team around a winger, or 2. We saw that failure when building around Iginla.

 

If you go into a full burn it down rebuild, Tanev, Lindholm and Backlund are 3 guys I would consider keeping. Tanev is the rookie whisperer (Hughes in Vancouver, Kylington here). Lindholm is young enough and skilled enough to carry the weight of offence and penalty killing. Backlund at a lower cap is still a great #3 C and will help bring along young guys. Lindholm stays #1, Backlund at #3 so your future franchise centre slots in at #2 and learns with less pressure (This has been done successfully by many teams including Vancouver with the Sedins).

 

You need players to support the young guys and help them along. You also build from the back end and up the middle. Pittsburg had Fleury, Letang, Crosby, Malkin. Colorado this year had Kuemper, Makar, Byram, MacKinnon, Kadri. Tampa has Vasilevsky, Hedman, Sergachev, Point and Stamkos.

 

No matter how good Toronto and Edmonton have been with forwards, they have not had the goaltending or D to push them over the top.

 

Tkachuk is at peak value right now. Unless he is signed long term (8 years) then trading him now makes more sense. We all know, so do all GMs in the league, that he will test UFA as soon as he can because hockey for him is business and he made clear last summer. I don’t see him signing any long term contract as he understands inflation and increasing cap implications means future contracts will likely be higher than current ones. He likely has not signed yet because he is looking for 1-3 years in the 9.5-10 range, while Flames offering 9-9.5 for 8. Not big difference in Salary, but he doesn’t want long term, he wants to leave opportunity to go UFA.

 

Brady took a longer contract due to age and how many more years of RFA he had. Matthew only has 1, so long term makes no sense for him. Brady will be UFA at 28, Matthew can be UFA at 25. 3 years contract would make him UFA at 27.

 

At least this year he is RFA which provides some leverage. If on a 1 year contract (even QO) then he goes UFA and his value in trade tanks due to the above. He would be a pure rental.

 

So people mad about Gaudreau leaving for nothing, blaming Treliving for not understanding the situation, should also realize this about Tkachuk and shouldn’t be focused on making him the C and focusing on building around him. Trade him at his peak value now to accelerate the “re-build” by switching it to a re-tool instead. Get quality young current roster players instead of draft picks.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, bosn111 said:

Both Tkachuk and Mangiapane are very good players who any team would love to have, but neither one is a player you build around. I know some fans have a love for Tkachuk and think he is a future captain, but if he is, the team loses any respect it had in the league as many players from many teams have zero respect for him.

 

Tkachuk has loads of talent, but he is no MacKinnon, McDavid, Matthews etc. Many fans also say you don’t build a team around a winger, or 2. We saw that failure when building around Iginla.

 

If you go into a full burn it down rebuild, Tanev, Lindholm and Backlund are 3 guys I would consider keeping. Tanev is the rookie whisperer (Hughes in Vancouver, Kylington here). Lindholm is young enough and skilled enough to carry the weight of offence and penalty killing. Backlund at a lower cap is still a great #3 C and will help bring along young guys. Lindholm stays #1, Backlund at #3 so your future franchise centre slots in at #2 and learns with less pressure (This has been done successfully by many teams including Vancouver with the Sedins).

 

You need players to support the young guys and help them along. You also build from the back end and up the middle. Pittsburg had Fleury, Letang, Crosby, Malkin. Colorado this year had Kuemper, Makar, Byram, MacKinnon, Kadri. Tampa has Vasilevsky, Hedman, Sergachev, Point and Stamkos.

 

No matter how good Toronto and Edmonton have been with forwards, they have not had the goaltending or D to push them over the top.

 

Tkachuk is at peak value right now. Unless he is signed long term (8 years) then trading him now makes more sense. We all know, so do all GMs in the league, that he will test UFA as soon as he can because hockey for him is business and he made clear last summer. I don’t see him signing any long term contract as he understands inflation and increasing cap implications means future contracts will likely be higher than current ones. He likely has not signed yet because he is looking for 1-3 years in the 9.5-10 range, while Flames offering 9-9.5 for 8. Not big difference in Salary, but he doesn’t want long term, he wants to leave opportunity to go UFA.

 

Brady took a longer contract due to age and how many more years of RFA he had. Matthew only has 1, so long term makes no sense for him. Brady will be UFA at 28, Matthew can be UFA at 25. 3 years contract would make him UFA at 27.

 

At least this year he is RFA which provides some leverage. If on a 1 year contract (even QO) then he goes UFA and his value in trade tanks due to the above. He would be a pure rental.

 

So people mad about Gaudreau leaving for nothing, blaming Treliving for not understanding the situation, should also realize this about Tkachuk and shouldn’t be focused on making him the C and focusing on building around him. Trade him at his peak value now to accelerate the “re-build” by switching it to a re-tool instead. Get quality young current roster players instead of draft picks.

 

I'm wondering since the Flames offered Tkachuk a QO (that has not been signed yet) then does the new team inherit our offer or do they have to make a new one?  Can the new team not make a QO and still have his rights?  I'm just wondering if Tkachuk can take a 1-year deal if he's traded somewhere he doesn't like... Ultimately lowering his trade value.

 

This means he'll only sign long term in St.Louis (hometown) or NJ (family is GM).  He might also sign long term in Arizona (born there and maybe mother's side of family is there).  And maybe he'll sign long term in OTT with his brother.

 

That might be it.  4 teams potentially.  

[cross16]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

I'm wondering since the Flames offered Tkachuk a QO (that has not been signed yet) then does the new team inherit our offer or do they have to make a new one?  Can the new team not make a QO and still have his rights?  I'm just wondering if Tkachuk can take a 1-year deal if he's traded somewhere he doesn't like... Ultimately lowering his trade value.

 

This means he'll only sign long term in St.Louis (hometown) or NJ (family is GM).  He might also sign long term in Arizona (born there and maybe mother's side of family is there).  And maybe he'll sign long term in OTT with his brother.

 

That might be it.  4 teams potentially.  

 

Yes he can. 

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I'm wondering since the Flames offered Tkachuk a QO (that has not been signed yet) then does the new team inherit our offer or do they have to make a new one?  Can the new team not make a QO and still have his rights?  I'm just wondering if Tkachuk can take a 1-year deal if he's traded somewhere he doesn't like... Ultimately lowering his trade value.

 

This means he'll only sign long term in St.Louis (hometown) or NJ (family is GM).  He might also sign long term in Arizona (born there and maybe mother's side of family is there).  And maybe he'll sign long term in OTT with his brother.

 

That might be it.  4 teams potentially.  

 

Well, the ideal thing is to trade him before he signs anything.  Assuming we are going there.  BT might be looking at Kadri, but he is obviously trying to get Tkachuk signed now.

[JTech780]

If Calgary decides to burn it down, Tkachuk obviously will be the first domino, but I think Lindholm is the guy that would bring back the biggest return. The next guy would probably be one of Hanifin, Andersson or Tanev. Any of those guys would bring back a pretty solid return as well.

[The_People1]

48 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

If Calgary decides to burn it down, Tkachuk obviously will be the first domino, but I think Lindholm is the guy that would bring back the biggest return. The next guy would probably be one of Hanifin, Andersson or Tanev. Any of those guys would bring back a pretty solid return as well.

 

Lindholm should get quite a haul because Centers are worth more than Wingers and Lindholm is such a good cap hit for two more years.  Andersson should fetch someone very good too.  RHS RD can play in all situations.

 

We have so much to sell to help with the rebuild that if we decide to rebuild, it should be a quick one.

[conundrumed]

7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

We have so much to sell to help with the rebuild that if we decide to rebuild, it should be a quick one.

By quick, do you mean, like, 5 years? If we have so much to sell, the flip side is bring in players to support the, "so much".

How long do fans want an absolute bottom feeder for?

Source: Detroit.

And they built a great new arena and their fans are allowed to have fun tailgate parties, unlike Canada's archaic crap. So what's the draw to go watch your team lose in Calgary? Pretty much nothing I'm guessing?

@cross16 has been mentioning the arena deal, or rather the lack thereof. It's all a part of the same problem.

This whole kettle of fish is disintegrating into, "what's the draw for fans"? What a PR nightmare. Lots of news, all bad.