Blow It Up?

[travel_dude]

There is no logic to blowing it up during the season.

You get little value right now for the best assets.

Teams have set the course of their season and will only add an impact player if the money is right and it's future costs.

And this isn't the typical year for rental and non-rental players.

The expansion draft sets up the receiving team to lose a player they were proyecting.

You want to blow it up, you will need to wait for 30 teams looking to make deals.  

 

We can ship off players like Gio, Ryan, Backlund at TDL if we are out of it, but is that the right move?

It may be if we get value for it.

But that also doesn't signal rebuild, it signals we are doing a re-tool and evaluate the remaining players and value.

Post expansion trades will look a lot different.

[ABC923]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

There is no logic to blowing it up during the season.

You get little value right now for the best assets.

Teams have set the course of their season and will only add an impact player if the money is right and it's future costs.

And this isn't the typical year for rental and non-rental players.

The expansion draft sets up the receiving team to lose a player they were proyecting.

You want to blow it up, you will need to wait for 30 teams looking to make deals.  

 

We can ship off players like Gio, Ryan, Backlund at TDL if we are out of it, but is that the right move?

It may be if we get value for it.

But that also doesn't signal rebuild, it signals we are doing a re-tool and evaluate the remaining players and value.

Post expansion trades will look a lot different.

I mostly agree.  I think we could make one big in season trade as part of a rebuild (JG would possibly fetch more as the acquiring team gets two playoff runs with him now), but the in season market couldn’t absorb more than that. At least losing one core piece increases our odds of finishing at the bottom, and gives us more expansion draft options. The full tear down will have to wait.

[MP5029]

So I guess the question is when? It’s not a matter of if the current core needs to be blown up...it clearly dose but when is the best time to do that? 

[The_People1]

40 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

So I guess the question is when? It’s not a matter of if the current core needs to be blown up...it clearly dose but when is the best time to do that? 

 

When they all turn UFA and leave for nothing.

[jjgallow]

55 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

So I guess the question is when? It’s not a matter of if the current core needs to be blown up...it clearly dose but when is the best time to do that? 

 

Previous to now.

 

There were many points imho.    But the most glaring in my mind is when we had our really strong season and Gaudreau was the hottest commodity going, and then we just got absolutely manhandled in the playoffs.   At that point it was clear this core would never see a cup (if it wasn't clear prior).

 

Our value has been depreciating with each passing game since then, and will continue to until we start racking up some high draft picks.

 

It's inevitable now.

[jjgallow]

10 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

When they all turn UFA and leave for nothing.

 

So many times I wish I could like your posts on here lol

[jjgallow]

On 2/27/2021 at 10:22 AM, travel_dude said:

There is no logic to blowing it up during the season.

You get little value right now for the best assets.

Teams have set the course of their season and will only add an impact player if the money is right and it's future costs.

And this isn't the typical year for rental and non-rental players.

The expansion draft sets up the receiving team to lose a player they were proyecting.

You want to blow it up, you will need to wait for 30 teams looking to make deals.  

 

We can ship off players like Gio, Ryan, Backlund at TDL if we are out of it, but is that the right move?

It may be if we get value for it.

But that also doesn't signal rebuild, it signals we are doing a re-tool and evaluate the remaining players and value.

Post expansion trades will look a lot different.

 

If we ship off JG, we will get what JG is worth.   Any year.   Particularly at trade deadline.  Granted that's just one player.

 

You're discussing what are, to be honest, marginal players at this point.  Definitely impact players in past years.   Our time to get a return for them has long past, Covid or no covid.

 

You're kind of making the point that we don't have a whole lot to ship off.

 

You're right.    But that in itself is the start of a rebuild whether we want one or not.    Our chances to take ownership of the rebuild are behind us, the rebuild will happen to us now.   It's more painful this way but we can still have that happy ending if we do it right.

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

If we ship off JG, we will get what JG is worth.   Any year.   Particularly at trade deadline.  Granted that's just one player.

 

You're discussing what are, to be honest, marginal players at this point.  Definitely impact players in past years.   Our time to get a return for them has long past, Covid or no covid.

 

You're kind of making the point that we don't have a whole lot to ship off.

 

You're right.    But that in itself is the start of a rebuild whether we want one or not.    Our chances to take ownership of the rebuild are behind us, the rebuild will happen to us now.   It's more painful this way but we can still have that happy ending if we do it right.

 

No, I am actually saying that the time to do it isn't during a season.

Very few teams have the ability to add $6m.  

So, you are limiting your return.

 

[jjgallow]

46 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

No, I am actually saying that the time to do it isn't during a season.

Very few teams have the ability to add $6m.  

So, you are limiting your return.

 

 

ok but if we go back and look at any offseason we've ever had, correct me if I'm wrong but you've consistently said now is not that time, and we should see how things shake out during the season until trade deadline.

 

Like, if you say now is not the time enough, eventually you won't have anything left to trade and it just won't matter anymore and that's really where this is headed at this point.

 

I'm not a contract expert but I do know that the TDL is particularly enticing because players contenders normally couldn't afford can be acquired because it's only for a segmented period of time (post-season).   You can basically front-load more players than you could normally afford.   And, TDL is also when there's Long term injuries etc.   Far less of these in the offseason.

 

Anyway

[MP5029]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

When they all turn UFA and leave for nothing.

Unfortunately you may be correct 😞 I mean at this rate the individual player values keep dropping each game so they may as well be leaving for noting 🤬

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Previous to now.

 

There were many points imho.    But the most glaring in my mind is when we had our really strong season and Gaudreau was the hottest commodity going, and then we just got absolutely manhandled in the playoffs.   At that point it was clear this core would never see a cup (if it wasn't clear prior).

 

Our value has been depreciating with each passing game since then, and will continue to until we start racking up some high draft picks.

 

It's inevitable now.

 

I saw it earlier that year. Their tendancies were too sporatic and inconsistent even then. I don't find corsi a huge determinant on how a team is playing when the other team is ok with you playing perimiter hockey. I think the team did a lot of that back then. Plus they had extremely slow starts to games, which was why we have always been the BEST THIRD PERIOD Team, or at least ranked as one of the best third period teams. The team also seemed to be a one line team that year too. Three lines would go, but never did they go at the same time. Gaudreau's line went, then cold. Sometimes it would be Backlund's line, then to end the year it was Ryan's. Then we saw what they were in the playoffs.

[MP5029]

Well now with Sutter at the helm of this team things may be different...if he can’t turn this team around no one can...should be interesting to see Bennett now too?

 

at the end of the day, this year we will see what this team can really do and if they keep up like this under Sutter there is not doubt it’s time to blow it up. I doubt that it will come to this, but I do think that the RW side is gonna get addressed and maybe a power forward or two for the top lines

[JTech780]

Well I think it's safe to say that we can retire this thread for another year. They didn't bring in Sutter on a 3 year contract for a rebuild.

[ABC923]

2 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Well I think it's safe to say that we can retire this thread for another year. They didn't bring in Sutter on a 3 year contract for a rebuild.

You're probably right.  I'm still hoping for some kind of retool at least, I'm not sold that Sutter can turn this ship around with the current roster.

[JTech780]

2 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

You're probably right.  I'm still hoping for some kind of retool at least, I'm not sold that Sutter can turn this ship around with the current roster.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they move a core player, maybe even two in the offseason, but I doubt they will be looking to take a step back with those type of trades.

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Well I think it's safe to say that we can retire this thread for another year. They didn't bring in Sutter on a 3 year contract for a rebuild.

 

They didn't bring in Ward or Peters or Hartley or  Gulutzan or BT to rebuild either.   

 

I like Sutter.    But, Coach firings have a pretty disastrous track record past the initial 10-game adrenalin rush.

[jjgallow]

On 3/4/2021 at 3:54 PM, travel_dude said:

 

No, I am actually saying that the time to do it isn't during a season.

Very few teams have the ability to add $6m.  

So, you are limiting your return.

 

 

just a quick reminder that it's the offseason and you're saying the offseason isn't the time to do a rebuild

 

imho, the rebuild started when we drafted Coronato.   And probably has 5-8 years left in it since we let it happen to us rather than be proactive.

[zima]

I was in the hockey Buzz forum and Sean Maloughney has the kraken at 5 and us at 6 which means he believes the Kraken will be a better team he even has the knuckle heads better than us. I figured it would happen but just sad to see our beloved Flames circling thee drain all I can say is thanks BT you have done what Sutter did what 7 yrs ago or more not sure when Sutter decided to trade away a ton of picks to try and make the playoffs only to never see a round in over 7 yrs and I think BT has done the same thing he even trade up like Sutter did yrs ago talk about deja vu 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, zima said:

I was in the hockey Buzz forum and Sean Maloughney has the kraken at 5 and us at 6 which means he believes the Kraken will be a better team he even has the knuckle heads better than us. I figured it would happen but just sad to see our beloved Flames circling thee drain all I can say is thanks BT you have done what Sutter did what 7 yrs ago or more not sure when Sutter decided to trade away a ton of picks to try and make the playoffs only to never see a round in over 7 yrs and I think BT has done the same thing he even trade up like Sutter did yrs ago talk about deja vu 

 

So, you take as truth what an Oilers blogger says?

Yes, that is what he is, and he also is the Kraken blogger.

He knows nothing about the Flames other than when we have played the Oilers.

 

[The_People1]

18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, you take as truth what an Oilers blogger says?

Yes, that is what he is, and he also is the Kraken blogger.

He knows nothing about the Flames other than when we have played the Oilers.

 

 

Are we surprised though?

 

#1 VGK

#2 EDM

 

After that, it's debatable but I have VAN at #3.  They made the trade of the entire off-season by dumping all of their deadweight for OEL... Dylan Guenther might be the best player in the entire trade but in the short term, the Canucks do get way better.  I really like Garland as well and he's a Brendan Gallagher-lite.  In addition to that, Hoglander is our Mangiapane.  Pettersson is a legit #1 Center.  Demko is arguably better than Markstrom.  Depth scoring and depth D are their main problems but in this division, it should be good enough for #3.

 

And why should we be surprised if an expansion team makes the playoffs in their first season?  The Kraken have a decent team.  No true #1 line but many hard working forwards. Their D is stacked and they have emerging G.  They will be a tough team to beat for anyone.

 

The Flames are only clearly better than LAK, ANA, and SJ,

 

LAK - did a few things but their core is aging out of prime and Byfield/Turcotte still too young to make an impact.  

ANA - has ton of cap space and not using it because they want Shane Wright.

SJ - their best player from last season might be going to jail.  Their D is overpaid and old.  They may also have the worst Gs in the NHL.

[robrob74]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Are we surprised though?

 

#1 VGK

#2 EDM

 

After that, it's debatable but I have VAN at #3.  They made the trade of the entire off-season by dumping all of their deadweight for OEL... Dylan Guenther might be the best player in the entire trade but in the short term, the Canucks do get way better.  I really like Garland as well and he's a Brendan Gallagher-lite.  In addition to that, Hoglander is our Mangiapane.  Pettersson is a legit #1 Center.  Demko is arguably better than Markstrom.  Depth scoring and depth D are their main problems but in this division, it should be good enough for #3.

 

And why should we be surprised if an expansion team makes the playoffs in their first season?  The Kraken have a decent team.  No true #1 line but many hard working forwards. Their D is stacked and they have emerging G.  They will be a tough team to beat for anyone.

 

The Flames are only clearly better than LAK, ANA, and SJ,

 

LAK - did a few things but their core is aging out of prime and Byfield/Turcotte still too young to make an impact.  

ANA - has ton of cap space and not using it because they want Shane Wright.

SJ - their best player from last season might be going to jail.  Their D is overpaid and old.  They may also have the worst Gs in the NHL.

I agree!

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Are we surprised though?

 

#1 VGK

#2 EDM

 

After that, it's debatable but I have VAN at #3.  They made the trade of the entire off-season by dumping all of their deadweight for OEL... Dylan Guenther might be the best player in the entire trade but in the short term, the Canucks do get way better.  I really like Garland as well and he's a Brendan Gallagher-lite.  In addition to that, Hoglander is our Mangiapane.  Pettersson is a legit #1 Center.  Demko is arguably better than Markstrom.  Depth scoring and depth D are their main problems but in this division, it should be good enough for #3.

 

And why should we be surprised if an expansion team makes the playoffs in their first season?  The Kraken have a decent team.  No true #1 line but many hard working forwards. Their D is stacked and they have emerging G.  They will be a tough team to beat for anyone.

 

The Flames are only clearly better than LAK, ANA, and SJ,

 

LAK - did a few things but their core is aging out of prime and Byfield/Turcotte still too young to make an impact.  

ANA - has ton of cap space and not using it because they want Shane Wright.

SJ - their best player from last season might be going to jail.  Their D is overpaid and old.  They may also have the worst Gs in the NHL.

 

I read the blogger and frankly I am amazed that he has a belief that the Oilers, with arguably worse D (than last year) and no solution in nets will be challenging for #1.

Smith played 3 months after being "injured" to start the season.

Expecting him to maintain a 920 season against teams other than the North for a full season is crazy.

They will score goals.

They will let in as many or more.

 

So, Guenther went to ARI, right?  How is that helping the Nucks.

Demko may have played well in a short season, but I wouldn't say he is better than JM.

 

Seattle really didn't get impact players; they got some interesting players which could gel and be better than what they are on paper.

 

Vegas without MAF is not spectacular.  They are a good team, but I don't know if they may have peaked and are on a bit of a downward slide.

 

[jjgallow]

I hope people realise that if they get their "wish" and we remain competitive for another season or two, it could drag our rebuild out to the 5-8 year mark given our current abilities in management in ownership.   That is, if we miss out on the very rare Shane Wright and Bedard drafts.

 

On the other hand if we crash and burn and have some legit top picks next season, followed by an even more decent shot at Bedard, there is a realistic chance that our rebuild could be over and done with in 3-4 years and we can return to competitive hockey as a contender.

 

That's just the truth.   The next two years are our "out".   They are our single and only chance to make up for all the wrongs of ownership and management and heal ourselves within a relatively short period, get back to playoff celebrations on the Red Mile.

 

To me it looks a whole lot like the crash and burn camp is getting their way, and quite frankly it looked like that all of last season as well and we did NOT get better this offseason, that's for sure lol.  But why fight it?   Why not enjoy the ride, things are just getting interesting.

 

Simply put,

 

 

[travel_dude]

^^^^^

Bwahahaha

[Horsman1]

On 3/4/2021 at 6:31 PM, robrob74 said:

 

I saw it earlier that year. Their tendancies were too sporatic and inconsistent even then. I don't find corsi a huge determinant on how a team is playing when the other team is ok with you playing perimiter hockey. I think the team did a lot of that back then. Plus they had extremely slow starts to games, which was why we have always been the BEST THIRD PERIOD Team, or at least ranked as one of the best third period teams. The team also seemed to be a one line team that year too. Three lines would go, but never did they go at the same time. Gaudreau's line went, then cold. Sometimes it would be Backlund's line, then to end the year it was Ryan's. Then we saw what they were in the playoffs.

the slow starts are directly related to George Canyon lulling the Flames to sleep with his rotten singing.. Bring back Susan Smith.. Or Patti Smith or Iggy Pop and Jazz the place up!!! the entertainment factor at a Flames game is a non; factor