Blow It Up?

[JTech780]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

By quick, do you mean, like, 5 years? If we have so much to sell, the flip side is bring in players to support the, "so much".

How long do fans want an absolute bottom feeder for?

Source: Detroit.

And they built a great new arena and their fans are allowed to have fun tailgate parties, unlike Canada's archaic crap. So what's the draw to go watch your team lose in Calgary? Pretty much nothing I'm guessing?

@cross16 has been mentioning the arena deal, or rather the lack thereof. It's all a part of the same problem.

This whole kettle of fish is disintegrating into, "what's the draw for fans"? What a PR nightmare. Lots of news, all bad.

The problem is that the pieces we are missing to support the “so much” are the star players, which are the hardest to get. Really the only way to get them is to draft them.

[LouCifer]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

By quick, do you mean, like, 5 years? If we have so much to sell, the flip side is bring in players to support the, "so much".

How long do fans want an absolute bottom feeder for?

Source: Detroit.

And they built a great new arena and their fans are allowed to have fun tailgate parties, unlike Canada's archaic crap. So what's the draw to go watch your team lose in Calgary? Pretty much nothing I'm guessing?

@cross16 has been mentioning the arena deal, or rather the lack thereof. It's all a part of the same problem.

This whole kettle of fish is disintegrating into, "what's the draw for fans"? What a PR nightmare. Lots of news, all bad.

Regardless of timelines, we must at the very least recognize that this is a team that won the division last season. Calgary is in such a good position to expedite a complete rebuild if they would choose to do so. If you go up and down our roster, there are a lot of players on pretty good deals (thanks BT) that other teams would covet, and pay a great price for especially at the TDL. 
 

There is an arms race going on in the East for next season. And the West looks more and more open for the taking. Both scenarios play to our advantage as teams in the East are going to try to load up to overtake the Tampa Bays and Torontos, and in the west, teams that add key pieces see the opportunity to not only make the playoffs, but may go deep depending on the quality of the opposition. “A ticket to the dance and anything can happen”
 

Then, there’s the upcoming 2023 draft - that is being touted for being a deep one. I’m not as concerned with rebuild timelines because teams like Ottawa and NJ have made their rebuilds entertaining along the way. When you acquire good young talent at the draft (high picks) it draws the crowds to the arena to see these top talents perform. Again, the key is doing it right, and doing it right requires that we don’t fall into that “middling” category where we’re picking “middling” young talent. 
 

Edit:

We all know that the management would never choose a rebuild. This off-season, I think 2 players have made the choice for them
 

[jjgallow]

On 7/13/2022 at 4:10 PM, travel_dude said:

 

Might as well hold off until key pieces are traded.  

 

 

Sure seems that way anyway.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

The problem is that the pieces we are missing to support the “so much” are the star players, which are the hardest to get. Really the only way to get them is to draft them.

 

Yup.   I saw people writing about how the last rebuild was different because we had  no younger players.

 

But no,

 

Last rebuild we had Gio and Iginla.        What's about to happen now, we will have zero stars.  Zero.

 

There is a stronger case for a rebuild now than there was then.  Even if we do have a few younger guys, which will actually help with the rebuild.

[jjgallow]

57 minutes ago, LouCifer said:

Regardless of timelines, we must at the very least recognize that this is a team that won the division last season. Calgary is in such a good position to expedite a complete rebuild if they would choose to do so. If you go up and down our roster, there are a lot of players on pretty good deals (thanks BT) that other teams would covet, and pay a great price for especially at the TDL. 
 

There is an arms race going on in the East for next season. And the West looks more and more open for the taking. Both scenarios play to our advantage as teams in the East are going to try to load up to overtake the Tampa Bays and Torontos, and in the west, teams that add key pieces see the opportunity to not only make the playoffs, but may go deep depending on the quality of the opposition. “A ticket to the dance and anything can happen”
 

Then, there’s the upcoming 2023 draft - that is being touted for being a deep one. I’m not as concerned with rebuild timelines because teams like Ottawa and NJ have made their rebuilds entertaining along the way. When you acquire good young talent at the draft (high picks) it draws the crowds to the arena to see these top talents perform. Again, the key is doing it right, and doing it right requires that we don’t fall into that “middling” category where we’re picking “middling” young talent. 
 

Edit:

We all know that the management would never choose a rebuild. This off-season, I think 2 players have made the choice for them
 

 

 

A lot of this I agree with.   But what do you mean by "expedite a complete rebuild"?

 

Seems paradoxical to me.

 

As mentioned, in the last rebuild we started it with Gio and Iginla, two star players.

 

This time we start with none.  I don't see this being a quick rebuild, even if we want it to be.    If ever it was going to be quick, it was before we traded away our first rounder and gave Gaudreau away for nothing.

 

What happens with the upcoming Tkachuk trade could dictate +/-  1-2 years on the rebuild.  I'm not optimistic considering that even Tkachuk, they left too late.  But we'll see.

[travel_dude]

40 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

Sure seems that way anyway.

 

Really?  Speculation that we are trading one player counts?

 

[jjgallow]

21 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Really?  Speculation that we are trading one player counts?

 

 

I dunno, I just woke up and I saw this thread trending, not my doing (ok I did kind of bump it a few days ago)

 

Then read the news and saw the speculation.

 

But seriously, Gaudreau and Tkachuk have both made comments going back months/years leading to this, I'm not sure this is new speculation

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I dunno, I just woke up and I saw this thread trending, not my doing (ok I did kind of bump it a few days ago)

 

Then read the news and saw the speculation.

 

But seriously, Gaudreau and Tkachuk have both made comments going back months/years leading to this, I'm not sure this is new speculation

 

All it takes is one media guy to mention it and they start piling on with clickbait articles.

So, trending?  Sure.

So is the PM's haircut.

[jjgallow]

25 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

All it takes is one media guy to mention it and they start piling on with clickbait articles.

So, trending?  Sure.

So is the PM's haircut.

 

true, but the reality is this has been getting more obvious for a few years now, is increasing by the day, and will continue that way for a long time before the organisation "decides" to rebuild.    

 

In previous rebuilds they "decided" to enter a rebuild long, long after it was painfully obvious we were in a rebuild.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

By quick, do you mean, like, 5 years? If we have so much to sell, the flip side is bring in players to support the, "so much".

How long do fans want an absolute bottom feeder for?

Source: Detroit.

And they built a great new arena and their fans are allowed to have fun tailgate parties, unlike Canada's archaic crap. So what's the draw to go watch your team lose in Calgary? Pretty much nothing I'm guessing?

@cross16 has been mentioning the arena deal, or rather the lack thereof. It's all a part of the same problem.

This whole kettle of fish is disintegrating into, "what's the draw for fans"? What a PR nightmare. Lots of news, all bad.

 

These are great points because I don't personally get financially hurt when fans decide they are staying home for 5 years until their team is good again.  The owners get hurt.

 

Why are the owners of the Red Wings willing to do whatever it takes financially to build the team the right way?  Take as long as it takes.  Whatever the short term financial loss with no guarantees the rebuild will be successful?  Why are they willing to do it?

 

The answer to these questions should tell us why we should follow in the Red Wings path.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

true, but the reality is this has been getting more obvious for a few years now, is increasing by the day, and will continue that way for a long time before the organisation "decides" to rebuild.    

 

In previous rebuilds they "decided" to enter a rebuild long, long after it was painfully obvious we were in a rebuild.

 

Up till last week, we were in the "too good to tank, not yet a perennial contender" state.  We were adding to the team to get there.  Finally had got rid of the old culture and had the team playing as a team.  

 

That's not the obvious sign of a need to rebuild.  Losing your top player has impact to the plans, but it doesn't signal rebuild.  It's obvious to you, but that doesn't make it right.  It may be the best idea for the long run.  Or it may be the worst.  As an investment, rebuilds can be money losing.  As a 5-10 year plan, they have far more risk to losing money.  

 

 

[cross16]

14 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

These are great points because I don't personally get financially hurt when fans decide they are staying home for 5 years until their team is good again.  The owners get hurt.

 

Why are the owners of the Red Wings willing to do whatever it takes financially to build the team the right way?  Take as long as it takes.  Whatever the short term financial loss with no guarantees the rebuild will be successful?  Why are they willing to do it?

 

The answer to these questions should tell us why we should follow in the Red Wings path.

 

Conundrumed is the Detroit guy so I feel bad answering before him...

 

All i will says is I think the decision to rebuild or take your time is a little easier to make when you were gifted a fully taxpayer funded arena. 

[robrob74]

23 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

These are great points because I don't personally get financially hurt when fans decide they are staying home for 5 years until their team is good again.  The owners get hurt.

 

Why are the owners of the Red Wings willing to do whatever it takes financially to build the team the right way?  Take as long as it takes.  Whatever the short term financial loss with no guarantees the rebuild will be successful?  Why are they willing to do it?

 

The answer to these questions should tell us why we should follow in the Red Wings path.

 

my answer.

 

they sucked until yzermam was drafted. They built the team into a perennial powerhouse and made the playoffs every year. Owners saw what every year playoff revenue is like so the sacrifice is miss for 3-5 years and be in for 10-15 years. And longer runs mean higher playoff revenue. One and done you get 2-3-4 games of home ice revenue. Go deep and max you get is 16 home games, minimum 12 without home ice. 

[jjgallow]

19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Up till last week, we were in the "too good to tank, not yet a perennial contender" state.  We were adding to the team to get there.  Finally had got rid of the old culture and had the team playing as a team.  

 

That's not the obvious sign of a need to rebuild.  Losing your top player has impact to the plans, but it doesn't signal rebuild.  It's obvious to you, but that doesn't make it right.  It may be the best idea for the long run.  Or it may be the worst.  As an investment, rebuilds can be money losing.  As a 5-10 year plan, they have far more risk to losing money.  

 

 

 

We were in that state, on the forum and other fan sites, yes.   

 

And now we're not.

 

That's how fast it pivots on social media, which is maybe your point.

 

Underneath it all it's been gradually becoming more obvious with every highly popular short-term decision BT has made.  Just math.

[robrob74]

Just now, robrob74 said:

 

my answer.

 

they sucked until yzermam was drafted. They built the team into a perennial powerhouse and made the playoffs every year. Owners saw what every year playoff revenue is like so the sacrifice is miss for 3-5 years and be in for 10-15 years. And longer runs mean higher playoff revenue. One and done you get 2-3-4 games of home ice revenue. Go deep and max you get is 16 home games, minimum 12 without home ice. 

 

on top of that, 2 rounds is doubling your 1 and done teams, you triple it going to the COnference final. So really you get 2 or 3 or 4 playoff revenues if you can get out of the first round on a regular basis. 
 

but you build the flames way you get one round. We got an extra round this year and get them three extra games of revenue over being a one and done team. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

on top of that, 2 rounds is doubling your 1 and done teams, you triple it going to the COnference final. So really you get 2 or 3 or 4 playoff revenues if you can get out of the first round on a regular basis. 
 

but you build the flames way you get one round. We got an extra round this year and get them three extra games of revenue over being a one and done team. 

 

Every series adds more than just seats.  Money for Flames gear.  Season ticket interest.  Selling out the next season.  

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

my answer.

 

they sucked until yzermam was drafted. They built the team into a perennial powerhouse and made the playoffs every year. Owners saw what every year playoff revenue is like so the sacrifice is miss for 3-5 years and be in for 10-15 years. And longer runs mean higher playoff revenue. One and done you get 2-3-4 games of home ice revenue. Go deep and max you get is 16 home games, minimum 12 without home ice. 

 

Well minimum is 8 home games if we sweep 4 rounds... But yes, it really comes down to an investment of 5 years in exchange for 10 years of playoff appearances.  The alternative is making the playoffs one year and missing the next.  Borderline playoff team.  One and done when they do get into the playoffs.

 

Rebuilding never makes short term financial sense. 

[sak22]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

These are great points because I don't personally get financially hurt when fans decide they are staying home for 5 years until their team is good again.  The owners get hurt.

 

Why are the owners of the Red Wings willing to do whatever it takes financially to build the team the right way?  Take as long as it takes.  Whatever the short term financial loss with no guarantees the rebuild will be successful?  Why are they willing to do it?

 

The answer to these questions should tell us why we should follow in the Red Wings path.

No choice, Holland did everything he could to keep the playoff streak going and the team had several bad contracts like Nielsen, Abdelkader, Dekeyser, Green, the team was bottoming out, but was also capped out.  But as pointed out by cross, new arena, and also big market with rich history and the franchise is worth almost $1billion compared to the Flames who are estimated at $660, it is just easier for them.

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Conundrumed is the Detroit guy so I feel bad answering before him...

 

All i will says is I think the decision to rebuild or take your time is a little easier to make when you were gifted a fully taxpayer funded arena. 

 

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

No choice, Holland did everything he could to keep the playoff streak going and the team had several bad contracts like Nielsen, Abdelkader, Dekeyser, Green, the team was bottoming out, but was also capped out.  But as pointed out by cross, new arena, and also big market with rich history and the franchise is worth almost $1billion compared to the Flames who are estimated at $660, it is just easier for them.

I'll add Ilitch didn't want a rebuild so Holland was forced. He just made some really bad decisions.

Ilitch was a financial giant in Detroit. He built so much legacy in Detroit and surrounding colleges, infrastructure etc that when it comes to approvals it's like an afterthought.

This is the most accurate assessment regarding the arena. Moving the Pistons there was unnecessary, but yeah.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2017/10/04/little-caesars-arena-financing/106313428/

 

So what I remember of Cass Ave was hardcore prostitutes and crack peddling right out in the open. Seriously. Like the worst you would see on TV. My bone of contention is the current failure to add the accompanying infrastructure. But make no mistake, Olympia holdings bought up one of the worst areas you'd ever see. It's a huge fix.

The Lions, Tigers, Wings and Pistons are within spitting distance of each other. Concert halls, restaurants etc a walk away from there.

I view it as a great investment for Detroit. The entire core is like bright size life now. Not accidentally hanging a left out of the Fox Theatre or crossing the street from Comerica,and being in big trouble. I speak from experience.lol

[LouCifer]

9 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

A lot of this I agree with.   But what do you mean by "expedite a complete rebuild"?

 

Seems paradoxical to me.

 

As mentioned, in the last rebuild we started it with Gio and Iginla, two star players.

 

This time we start with none.  I don't see this being a quick rebuild, even if we want it to be.    If ever it was going to be quick, it was before we traded away our first rounder and gave Gaudreau away for nothing.

 

What happens with the upcoming Tkachuk trade could dictate +/-  1-2 years on the rebuild.  I'm not optimistic considering that even Tkachuk, they left too late.  But we'll see.

Expedite meaning start it right now, and if we play our cards right, we may be able to get a great start on it due to an upcoming deep draft. I liked @Thebrewcrew suggested trade with NJ. I mean, if the bidding for Chucky’s services don’t give us multiple picks in return, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to take Tatar and Severson to flip them at the deadline for more picks. I honestly don’t know what we’re going to get for Chucky, but I like that TBC is thinking of ways to acquire more picks (via players to flip at the TDL) if the offers are less than anticipated. I will agree with Eric Francis on the point that Chucky is a kind of “unicorn” in the NHL. Not many players like him. But I will always contend that he is a complimentary player, not someone that drives the bus. 

[rickross]

Holy high hell what has happened to the Calgary Flames? We were just in the playoffs cheering this team on and now Tkachuk and Gaudreau are gone! It’s already blown up here!…nothing but Bombs being dropped on the Flames! Now we await what comes out of the ashes. Hyper disappointing how this all unfolded but the opportunity this could present! Depending how this shakes out we should be flush with cap space in a tight cap era, some extra picks in what’s slated to be a upcoming deep drafts,  it’s a fresh start and could be a blessing in disguise 🥸 …maybe 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, rickross said:

Holy high hell what has happened to the Calgary Flames? We were just in the playoffs cheering this team on and now Tkachuk and Gaudreau are gone! It’s already blown up here!…nothing but Bombs being dropped on the Flames! Now we await what comes out of the ashes. Hyper disappointing how this all unfolded but the opportunity this could present! Depending how this shakes out we should be flush with cap space in a tight cap era, some extra picks in what’s slated to be a upcoming deep drafts,  it’s a fresh start and could be a blessing in disguise 🥸 …maybe 

 

The Positivity thread has just crashed.

 

I am not ready for the heartache of a rebuild.  We should consider any trade of Tkachuk to a team that could fall apart with a slight push.  Make any 1st rounder top 10 guaranteed or we can defer to following draft.  The exact opposite of lotto protected.  A team like NJ for instance.  Strip them of a few good players plus the pick.  They make the playoffs, we decide when the draft rolls around.  They don't and we still have the option to defer.  

 

Only a desperate GM doesn this, but that's kinda what we are hoping for.  

[rickross]

29 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The Positivity thread has just crashed.

 

I am not ready for the heartache of a rebuild.  We should consider any trade of Tkachuk to a team that could fall apart with a slight push.  Make any 1st rounder top 10 guaranteed or we can defer to following draft.  The exact opposite of lotto protected.  A team like NJ for instance.  Strip them of a few good players plus the pick.  They make the playoffs, we decide when the draft rolls around.  They don't and we still have the option to defer.  

 

Only a desperate GM doesn this, but that's kinda what we are hoping for.  

I’m trying to think of another organization that has lost both of its top 2 players in this fashion. Your strategy is ideal in our case, if we can find the right partner…we might be heading toward a “mini” rebuild here, it’s pretty unbelievable…fresh off of winning our division. If we do end up trading Tkachuk then it’s going to be the trade that defines Trelivings legacy as a Flame let alone his job! 

[Thebrewcrew]

33 minutes ago, rickross said:

I’m trying to think of another organization that has lost both of its top 2 players in this fashion. Your strategy is ideal in our case, if we can find the right partner…we might be heading toward a “mini” rebuild here, it’s pretty unbelievable…fresh off of winning our division. If we do end up trading Tkachuk then it’s going to be the trade that defines Trelivings legacy as a Flame let alone his job! 

Columbus lost Panarin, Bobrovsky and Duchene for nothing in 2019.

 

The Flames are lucky that they only lost Gaudreau for nothing. Tkachuk, while sad to see him go, at least gave the Flames notice. They won't be leaving empty handed

[travel_dude]

40 minutes ago, rickross said:

I’m trying to think of another organization that has lost both of its top 2 players in this fashion. Your strategy is ideal in our case, if we can find the right partner…we might be heading toward a “mini” rebuild here, it’s pretty unbelievable…fresh off of winning our division. If we do end up trading Tkachuk then it’s going to be the trade that defines Trelivings legacy as a Flame let alone his job! 

 

I should point out that the 1st is an add on piece, not the principal piece.

We have to come out of this no worse than Buffalo got for Eichel.

In fact, it has to be better.

Tkachuk doesn;t have a broken neck.

And he is not signed long term for $10M.

He's getting closer to what Brady got.