Blow It Up?

[Thebrewcrew]

I don't know if it will be intentional, but it will be inevitable.

 

2/3 of the top line is gone. I really like Mang. But will he score 35 when he's one of the two biggest offensive threats? I think the Flames are gonna have a really hard time scoring.

 

Vegas and Vancouver should have better seasons. LA should continue to take strides. 

 

There are a lot of Flames with only 2yrs of term left. By the TDL I wouldn't be surprised if Lindholm,Tanev, Backlund, Toffoli and Hanifin's names start to get out there.

 

I would imagine the Flames try to compete this year. I just don't know if they have the horses to do it.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

The Positivity thread has just crashed.

 

I am not ready for the heartache of a rebuild.  We should consider any trade of Tkachuk to a team that could fall apart with a slight push.  Make any 1st rounder top 10 guaranteed or we can defer to following draft.  The exact opposite of lotto protected.  A team like NJ for instance.  Strip them of a few good players plus the pick.  They make the playoffs, we decide when the draft rolls around.  They don't and we still have the option to defer.  

 

Only a desperate GM doesn this, but that's kinda what we are hoping for.  

 

IMHO when it actually starts, you are going to love it.

 

Yes, you'll obviously have to adjust some game-by-game expectations, but honestly the regular season wins never did it for me and the conversations on here are about to go from tire-change convos to engine overhaul convos.

 

We'll actually have real convos about the kind of players we need to win a cup over the next 10 years.

 

Less desperation, more experimentation, more discussion about development and improvement

 

We don't have to say we decided to tank...it was forced on us.

 

And it's all happening ahead of one of the deepest drafts of our time.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

IMHO when it actually starts, you are going to love it.

 

Yes, you'll obviously have to adjust some game-by-game expectations, but honestly the regular season wins never did it for me and the conversations on here are about to go from tire-change convos to engine overhaul convos.

 

We'll actually have real convos about the kind of players we need to win a cup over the next 10 years.

 

Less desperation, more experimentation, more discussion about development and improvement

 

We don't have to say we decided to tank...it was forced on us.

 

And it's all happening ahead of one of the deepest drafts of our time.

 

You still seem to believe we are doing a rebuild.

If the only offers are for picks and pospects, you might get part of your wish.

17th overall.

Just enough to not get anything better than 5th overall in a lotto win.

And make no mistake, we sign Kadri as a result.

[rickross]

46 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I should point out that the 1st is an add on piece, not the principal piece.

We have to come out of this no worse than Buffalo got for Eichel.

In fact, it has to be better.

Tkachuk doesn;t have a broken neck.

And he is not signed long term for $10M.

He's getting closer to what Brady got.

This is possibly the most important trade in Flames history. Treliving has got to get this one right. We need a major win..anything less and it’s one of the most shameful examples of asset mismanagement in hockey. 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, rickross said:

This is possibly the most important trade in Flames history. Treliving has got to get this one right. We need a major win..anything less and it’s one of the most shameful examples of asset mismanagement in hockey. 

 

I don't think most fans would be okay with a pick or prospect.

Has to be more than what ends up being a bunch of people looking up a player on HockeyDB.

You know, our draft results.

 

Has to be a Kozens or Zegras or Lundell or Robertson or Thomas or Kyrou or Raymond.

That kind of level.  The lesser names include other pieces.

No crap unless it absolutely comes with a payoff.

And it can't be multi year crap.

[rickross]

7 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't think most fans would be okay with a pick or prospect.

Has to be more than what ends up being a bunch of people looking up a player on HockeyDB.

You know, our draft results.

 

Has to be a Kozens or Zegras or Lundell or Robertson or Thomas or Kyrou or Raymond.

That kind of level.  The lesser names include other pieces.

No crap unless it absolutely comes with a payoff.

And it can't be multi year crap.

Exactly! This has to be an impactful transaction for this franchise. This can’t be a middling return packaged with draft picks from 2029. Home run. I’m not even sure “fair” cuts it..this has to be a clear cut win, we damn  near deserve a fleecing at this point 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

You still seem to believe we are doing a rebuild.

If the only offers are for picks and pospects, you might get part of your wish.

17th overall.

Just enough to not get anything better than 5th overall in a lotto win.

And make no mistake, we sign Kadri as a result.

 

It's not so much that I can anticipate the type of return, rather I don't expect the calibre of return to prevent a rebuild.

 

Kadri would be BT's type...overrated, overaged.     But I don't seem him changing much even if BT did land him

[jjgallow]

12 hours ago, rickross said:

This is possibly the most important trade in Flames history. Treliving has got to get this one right. We need a major win..anything less and it’s one of the most shameful examples of asset mismanagement in hockey. 

 

It's definitely big, and will have a major impact on our future.

 

Devils advocate, I think there have been some pretty big trades in the past.

The 5-player Toronto screwup

The Kent Nilsson trade  (brilliant trade, hated by fans as it was for a draft pick, led to a Stanley Cup)

The Niewendyk trade (brilliant trade, should have led to a stanley cup, it was in)

 

This trade, it's not clear that we're going to get full value back.   I have doubts.  If not, it's gong to be pretty minor.    But yes if we get full value back somehow, it'll be big.

[sak22]

16 hours ago, rickross said:

I’m trying to think of another organization that has lost both of its top 2 players in this fashion. Your strategy is ideal in our case, if we can find the right partner…we might be heading toward a “mini” rebuild here, it’s pretty unbelievable…fresh off of winning our division. If we do end up trading Tkachuk then it’s going to be the trade that defines Trelivings legacy as a Flame let alone his job! 

Well based off my memory I would say 2 worse offseasons in recent history that are worse than the Flames are the BlueJackets in 2019 losing Bobrovsky, Panarin and Duchene.  Buffalo in 2007 lost Briere, Drury and were looking at losing Campbell the next year and on top of that had to match a ridiculous offer sheet to keep Vanek, and that was coming off back to back conference finals.  When it was happening to those teams people needed to expect that it could happen to us because we're not that different market wise.

[travel_dude]

13 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

It's not so much that I can anticipate the type of return, rather I don't expect the calibre of return to prevent a rebuild.

 

Kadri would be BT's type...overrated, overaged.     But I don't seem him changing much even if BT did land him

 

It's either a rebuild trade or it isn't.  If it isn't then we will load up elsewhere.  That's just the way it is.  You don't rebuild, you are trying to win the cup.  In 2 years or less.  Whether Kadri moves the needle towards a cup after losing those two players or not, it's not lotto territory.  We are only losing one 3rd pairing D from the backend and have the same G's.  Expect a dropoff in scoring by at least 40 goals, but some of those are replaced by the pieces coming in.

 

Unless it's a rebuild.   

[jjgallow]

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

It's either a rebuild trade or it isn't.  If it isn't then we will load up elsewhere.  That's just the way it is.  You don't rebuild, you are trying to win the cup.  In 2 years or less.  Whether Kadri moves the needle towards a cup after losing those two players or not, it's not lotto territory.  We are only losing one 3rd pairing D from the backend and have the same G's.  Expect a dropoff in scoring by at least 40 goals, but some of those are replaced by the pieces coming in.

 

Unless it's a rebuild.   

 

I understand that perspective,

 

Maybe the bigger question is whether this will be  a sign-and-trade deal or a trade-and-sign deal.

 

I am skeptical about the leverage the Flames have here, not my area of expertise though.

 

To me, it's a rebuild unless they trade for the Now AND they get a great return.   Both of those would have to be true for any chance at all at avoiding a rebuild.  

[flames for life]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

It's definitely big, and will have a major impact on our future.

 

Devils advocate, I think there have been some pretty big trades in the past.

The 5-player Toronto screwup

The Kent Nilsson trade  (brilliant trade, hated by fans as it was for a draft pick, led to a Stanley Cup)

The Niewendyk trade (brilliant trade, should have led to a stanley cup, it was in)

 

This trade, it's not clear that we're going to get full value back.   I have doubts.  If not, it's gong to be pretty minor.    But yes if we get full value back somehow, it'll be big.

It will be hard to top the Toronto trade fiasco!  I was pissed about that for a long time!!

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I understand that perspective,

 

Maybe the bigger question is whether this will be  a sign-and-trade deal or a trade-and-sign deal.

 

I am skeptical about the leverage the Flames have here, not my area of expertise though.

 

To me, it's a rebuild unless they trade for the Now AND they get a great return.   Both of those would have to be true for any chance at all at avoiding a rebuild.  

 

I can't guess what the return will be.  You don't go from building a contender (close or not is not the issue) to being in a rebuild in the space of a month.  Not saying we should or shouldn't, just that I don't see it.  A sign and trade has risks for Tkachuk.  The leverage is that Tkachuk is a top player in this league so teams will be calling about him.  This isn't an Eichel situation where a player was broken and might heal, and you end up with an insured incapable player.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I can't guess what the return will be.  You don't go from building a contender (close or not is not the issue) to being in a rebuild in the space of a month.  Not saying we should or shouldn't, just that I don't see it.  A sign and trade has risks for Tkachuk.  The leverage is that Tkachuk is a top player in this league so teams will be calling about him.  This isn't an Eichel situation where a player was broken and might heal, and you end up with an insured incapable player.

 

I do concede that it would be unusual to move from where we are into a top 10 pick next year, although not impossible.   

 

On the other hand, a miracle trade that makes everything better is equally unlikely.

 

I won't deny wanting Bedard to land here.   But I would survive it was Kiviharju in 2024 as well lol.

 

 

[phoenix66]

15 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I do concede that it would be unusual to move from where we are into a top 10 pick next year, although not impossible.   

 

On the other hand, a miracle trade that makes everything better is equally unlikely.

 

I won't deny wanting Bedard to land here.   But I would survive it was Kiviharju in 2024 as well lol.

 

 

I think if we can land that 1st rounder unprotected from jersey we'd have a decent shot 

[jjgallow]

13 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I think if we can land that 1st rounder unprotected from jersey we'd have a decent shot 

 

That's what I wish we had done last year yes, when they were pretty much offering it up on a platter.  I do believe it was their 2022 pick they were offering, not 2023.

 

I have some concerns that New Jersey may surprise a lot of people next year, possibly not even end up with a top 10 pick.   I suppose that's okay as long as the pick isn't lottery protected.     

 

Ultimately though yes, if we trade Tkachuk for futures, we stand a great chance of being a top 10 pick ourselves.   Two top 10 picks in 2023 would give some interesting lotto chances of landing Bedard.

 

I just really don't understand what kind of return we can expect for Tkachuk and the amount of leverage we have.

[tmac70]

Really what have we learned over the past 6 -8 years. 

 

1) We have had 2-#6 picks Monahan, Tkatch and 1- 4 with Bennett. Bennett was a bust and Tkatch is states bound and Monhan is now trending into a borken down player, are we further ahead. Valmki appears to be a spoiled brat, we have no idea on what Peltier or Zary will bring, and based on past behaviour Corranto has a 3-5 year window before he heads south. Fox wouldn't sign here either

 

2) Everyone keeps preaching no one wnats to come here as its a small market ,high of taxes and the weather and travel.

 

3) We have a run down horrible facilty. 
 

4) Our best player and top offensive driver walked into UFA to sign with a club further down the charts than us for less money. 

 

The only thing that is changeable is a rink deal. IMO this is why we will never do a tear down or rebuild, its just not doable based on to many variables out of your control. We have picked in the top 6 3 times hit home runs twice in the 4th round and are now no further ahead. Anyone avocating that the best route is to blow it up and tear it down, is not taking into a count the odds have not nor will be in our favour, the risk is not worth the reward. Retooling is really the only option at present and in the near future. It seems we take 2 steps forward only to slide 4 steps back, its frustrating to say the least. Show me in CGY history where they went rebuild mode and it was succuessful? 

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, tmac70 said:

Really what have we learned over the past 6 -8 years. 

 

1) We have had 2-#6 picks Monahan, Tkatch and 1- 4 with Bennett. Bennett was a bust and Tkatch is states bound and Monhan is now trending into a borken down player, are we further ahead. Valmki appears to be a spoiled brat, we have no idea on what Peltier or Zary will bring, and based on past behaviour Corranto has a 3-5 year window before he heads south. Fox wouldn't sign here either

 

2) Everyone keeps preaching no one wnats to come here as its a small market ,high of taxes and the weather and travel.

 

3) We have a run down horrible facilty. 
 

4) Our best player and top offensive driver walked into UFA to sign with a club further down the charts than us for less money. 

 

The only thing that is changeable is a rink deal. IMO this is why we will never do a tear down or rebuild, its just not doable based on to many variables out of your control. We have picked in the top 6 3 times hit home runs twice in the 4th round and are now no further ahead. Anyone avocating that the best route is to blow it up and tear it down, is not taking into a count the odds have not nor will be in our favour, the risk is not worth the reward. Retooling is really the only option at present and in the near future. It seems we take 2 steps forward only to slide 4 steps back, its frustrating to say the least. So me in CGY history where they went rebuild mode and it was succuessful? 

 

1) Valimaki didn't respond well to Sutter; the reality is that some players don't like that coaching style.  He could get better like Kylington did, but it's his problem to get there.  Zary was injured (concussion) but he showed being a smart player.  Pelletier is a Mangiapane level player that can pass.  He is easily our best prospect and just needs the right intro to NHL.  Coronato is a player that has a spot waiting for him on the Flames.  He's not going to drop out of Harvard to play in the AHL.  I don't have concerns with him, as he's not a spoiled player.  

 

2) Canada is Canada.  Alberta has a problem with sports writers talking about anything here because they don't stay up late.  Nobody wants to go to California now, unless they want that lifestyle (2 hour drive to get milk, land of fake people).

 

3) The dome does suck.  

 

4) Our best player was constantly complained about when he didn't score.  Fans shoveled his driveway.  Johnny hate the media and living in the spotlight.  He just wants to play hockey.  He didn't like being stuck in a place for two years with little contact with his family, and playing in a bubble.  He's a family guy.  Tkachuk is also big on family. 

 

The arena is a big problem.  It needs to be resolved.  We don't just have one owner like EDM and the city council is not about to just throw cash at the team to get them to build something.  EDM is an embarrassment to city councils everywhere.    

[The_People1]

We are in win-now mode so this thread can die again.

 

I'm either all in or all out.  So let's trade whatever it takes to land a #2 Center and make a serious run for the Cup this year.

[robrob74]

11 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

We are in win-now mode so this thread can die again.

 

I'm either all in or all out.  So let's trade whatever it takes to land a #2 Center and make a serious run for the Cup this year.

Which could mean trade then sign Kadri

[The_People1]

10 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Which could mean trade then sign Kadri

 

That's wreckless but if it works, then we win the Cup.

[travel_dude]

12 hours ago, The_People1 said:

We are in win-now mode so this thread can die again.

 

I'm either all in or all out.  So let's trade whatever it takes to land a #2 Center and make a serious run for the Cup this year.

 

Barzal is first choice.

I guess we should change the name of the thread from Blow it up? to Red Wire Cut.

[crazyflames]

On 7/23/2022 at 1:39 PM, robrob74 said:

Which could mean trade then sign Kadri

We will most likely in rebuild mode after this season as most players' contract end in 2023 or 2024.  If we sign Kadri for 7 years, that will be biggest mistake we ever made after Gaudreau.  If you want to win this year, you don't sign free agents for long contract without knowing Huberdeau or Weegar future.  You ship young asset maybe even draft picks to get top 6 forward, and you try to win.  If you do, u might able to keep Huberdeau or Weegar.  If you lose this season, I am pretty sure all the UFAs will be gone by end of the season, then what's the point to sign Kadri for 7 years with huge contract.  

[tmac70]

The option Trevling has now are in the advantage of the Flames. 1) he filled the void of JG with a player that no one though possible of getting 2) we got a top 4 Dman in the same trade as well. 3) These palyers if need be can either be resigned, traded now to fill another void, or trade at the deadline for picks and prospects. 

 

Last week we were in a not so good place. We can now say we have moved up the ladder a litlle in the fact we actually got better than we were. The perfect ending would be they sign, but if we flip them we get 3 first +++ at trade deadline and maybe more if he decides to remove a few more items. 

[jjgallow]

On 7/24/2022 at 6:41 AM, tmac70 said:

The option Trevling has now are in the advantage of the Flames. 1) he filled the void of JG with a player that no one though possible of getting 2) we got a top 4 Dman in the same trade as well. 3) These palyers if need be can either be resigned, traded now to fill another void, or trade at the deadline for picks and prospects. 

 

Last week we were in a not so good place. We can now say we have moved up the ladder a litlle in the fact we actually got better than we were. The perfect ending would be they sign, but if we flip them we get 3 first +++ at trade deadline and maybe more if he decides to remove a few more items. 

 

I have to admit, I never thought he'd push the rebuild out another year, but...he did.

 

Whether that is a compliment or not is a matter of personal opinion.