Blow It Up?

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, rickross said:

KABOOOOM!!!

 

Start with the coach.

If there was any value whatsoever, then the UFA's should be packing too.

After that, there is little to make TDL deals with.

Value in the summer only or next TDL.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

Given the popular opinion of many on the boards seemed only right to bump this thread.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Given the popular opinion of many on the boards seemed only right to bump this thread.

 

Nice bump. 

 

Truth is...this was posted in 2020 and since then, BT has gradually blown up the entire core.

 

We are now debating selling the likes of Lindholm who were only semi-core 3 years ago but now they are all we've got.

 

Really at this point we are only debating the label.   BT has already blown up the team.

[Sarasti]

On 6/24/2023 at 6:23 PM, jjgallow said:

 

Nice bump. 

 

Truth is...this was posted in 2020 and since then, BT has gradually blown up the entire core.

 

We are now debating selling the likes of Lindholm who were only semi-core 3 years ago but now they are all we've got.

 

Really at this point we are only debating the label.   BT has already blown up the team.

 

BLOW IT UP FURTHER!

[travel_dude]

Naw, save it for another day.  Too late for this year's draft.  You might get a piece or two from the "reported" traitors.  But really what you have is the makings of a team that could be a bubble team this year.  If they are below a certain point, sell some of the pending UFA's you still have and bottom out a bit.  If you are above a certain point, still sell off those pieces but pick up ones the big tankers are letting go, mostly ones with some term and some salary.  Weaponize the cap space.

 

I'm not keen on blowing up any team.  The reported traitors leaving will leave you very little in the new core.  You can't blow that up too.  

 

[jjgallow]

31 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Naw, save it for another day.  Too late for this year's draft.  You might get a piece or two from the "reported" traitors.  But really what you have is the makings of a team that could be a bubble team this year.  If they are below a certain point, sell some of the pending UFA's you still have and bottom out a bit.  If you are above a certain point, still sell off those pieces but pick up ones the big tankers are letting go, mostly ones with some term and some salary.  Weaponize the cap space.

 

I'm not keen on blowing up any team.  The reported traitors leaving will leave you very little in the new core.  You can't blow that up too.  

 

 

 

[TheBurn]

  28 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

As requested 😅

 

 

Maybe it's time to consider decoupling "rebuild" and "negativity" though.   This is the most positive I have been about the Flames in a decade, easily.   

 

Gotta be straight with you, imho we are rebuilding right now and I could care less what the team/owners say, it's really not their decision.    For the first time in a long time we gained picks heading into a draft, and didn't lose any in the draft, and .....  potentially, drafted bpa.  I think.  Maybe.

 

I actually think the negativity thread is more for people who think we lost big losing Treliving and Conroy can never fill those boots.   As well as people constantly wondering why we don't take the latest 33 year old UFA on an 8-year bloated contract to "make it big".

 

I am seeing signs of a rebuild and I am getting positive about this organisation for the first time in a long time. 

 

I just don't think "rebuild" is a dirty word, and I don't expect or need the organisation to spell it out when I can already see it happening.

 

I think your perception of "rebuild" is sort of like my perception of "tanking".

 

I don't need us to tank to be happy.  I just need to see progress and an investment in the future.  So far I have seen that with Conroy and I will continue to be happy the longer I see it. 

Expand  

I am against rebuilds. Not that they are dirty words but that I never want my team to throw years away. Put a team that doesn't have a shot at playoffs on the ice. 

 

Well coached teams don't need to be last in the league and more often than not, teams struggle to get out of the basement as prime years of some assets get wasted waiting for others to ascend.

 

We just need to be able to manage rosters/ contracts choices better than we have been ( Coleman, Mang, Kad). 

 

Be willing to make deals at trade deadline to trade for youth for our experience and not think that it will ruin our chemistry. 

 

Get the best draft team. Take chances on players that slip in rounds (anderson, kylington).

 

Be willing to walk away from players. ( Backlund...keep him for this year and make him our captain. Let him leave if he wants at season end or tdl if he wants to much).

 

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, TheBurn said:

  28 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

As requested 😅

 

 

Maybe it's time to consider decoupling "rebuild" and "negativity" though.   This is the most positive I have been about the Flames in a decade, easily.   

 

Gotta be straight with you, imho we are rebuilding right now and I could care less what the team/owners say, it's really not their decision.    For the first time in a long time we gained picks heading into a draft, and didn't lose any in the draft, and .....  potentially, drafted bpa.  I think.  Maybe.

 

I actually think the negativity thread is more for people who think we lost big losing Treliving and Conroy can never fill those boots.   As well as people constantly wondering why we don't take the latest 33 year old UFA on an 8-year bloated contract to "make it big".

 

I am seeing signs of a rebuild and I am getting positive about this organisation for the first time in a long time. 

 

I just don't think "rebuild" is a dirty word, and I don't expect or need the organisation to spell it out when I can already see it happening.

 

I think your perception of "rebuild" is sort of like my perception of "tanking".

 

I don't need us to tank to be happy.  I just need to see progress and an investment in the future.  So far I have seen that with Conroy and I will continue to be happy the longer I see it. 

Expand  

I am against rebuilds. Not that they are dirty words but that I never want my team to throw years away. Put a team that doesn't have a shot at playoffs on the ice. 

 

Well coached teams don't need to be last in the league and more often than not, teams struggle to get out of the basement as prime years of some assets get wasted waiting for others to ascend.

 

We just need to be able to manage rosters/ contracts choices better than we have been ( Coleman, Mang, Kad). 

 

Be willing to make deals at trade deadline to trade for youth for our experience and not think that it will ruin our chemistry. 

 

Get the best draft team. Take chances on players that slip in rounds (anderson, kylington).

 

Be willing to walk away from players. ( Backlund...keep him for this year and make him our captain. Let him leave if he wants at season end or tdl if he wants to much).

 

 

 

Rebuilds are just natural cycles that teams go through in all sports.  If you try to deny nature, then it usually goes very badly.  If you embrace it, accept it, and then build a strategy to guide it along, then the results would reap rewards faster and better.  Cores can't stay young forever.  You have to turn it over at some point.

 

We can all be against losing on purpose.  I get that.  But don't hate the player, hate the game.  The NHL keeps rewarding the best picks to the worst teams.  Unweighted lottery would fix so much about this topic of tanking.  But nonetheless, it is what it is.

[jjgallow]

There is:

 

1.  Investing in the future

2.  Sacrificing the present for the future

3.  Sacrificing the future for the present

 

 

Very loosely, I see :

#1 as rebuilding

#2 as tanking

#3 as Brad Treliving (or owners)

 

Just because we're not doing #3, doesn't mean we're trying to lose or doing something bad.   #3 is the equivalent of maxing out all your credit cards.

 

We've become accustomed to it as normal.

 

It's not.

 

I think that's the first point of confusion.

 

 

Now, whether to tank or not:   Tanking just gets you there faster.  That's all.  I'll cheer for the Flames either way, we're just going to have to wait a lot longer if we don't tank.   

 

So:

 

Point is:    It's okay to be against tanking.  But if you're against tanking, you better be Extra patient.  Like, maybe 8-10 years.   Fine, don't tank.   But when we're struggling and we have no ammo left for #3, remember you declined the faster route.   So hang in.  It will take some time, just like paying off credit cards does.

 

Tanking is like defaulting on that credit card debt and starting fresh.  You may have moral issues with it but it'll save you several years of your life.    Wanna pay it off slow?  Cool.  That's fine.  but that's a choice you make and shouldn't complain about how long it takes if you choose it.

[sak22]

44 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Rebuilds are just natural cycles that teams go through in all sports.  If you try to deny nature, then it usually goes very badly.  If you embrace it, accept it, and then build a strategy to guide it along, then the results would reap rewards faster and better.  Cores can't stay young forever.  You have to turn it over at some point.

 

We can all be against losing on purpose.  I get that.  But don't hate the player, hate the game.  The NHL keeps rewarding the best picks to the worst teams.  Unweighted lottery would fix so much about this topic of tanking.  But nonetheless, it is what it is.

In 2020, Detroit was over 20 points behind the next lowest team and picked 4th (sorry C).

2019 New Jersey was 8 points out of last and picked 1, New York was 14th out of last and picked 2 and Chicago was 6 points out of the playoffs and 20 up on last and picked 3rd.

2017 Colorado was the worst team by over 20 points and picked 4th, while Philly was in playoff contention and got 2

2015 Edmonton was 8 points ahead of last

2014 Florida was 14 points ahead of last

2012 Edmonton was 9 points ahead of last

2007 Chicago was 15 points ahead of last

 

This past year the 3rd best odds won, although only 1 point separated 30th-32nd.  The system has rewarded a lot of teams for being bad but not bad enough.

[420since1974]

11 hours ago, jjgallow said:

There is:

 

1.  Investing in the future

2.  Sacrificing the present for the future

3.  Sacrificing the future for the present

 

 

Very loosely, I see :

#1 as rebuilding

#2 as tanking

#3 as Brad Treliving (or owners)

During the entire history of the Flames in Calgary, I don't think that I've ever seen #2 happen, and maybe only twice seen #1 tried for 2 - 3 years before reverting to #3.

 

I don't have any issues with #2 in theory, but it would be quite difficult to pull off with Huberdeau's 8 year, $84M contract.

73% of it is signing bonuses, a full NMC for the first 6 years, and for the last 2, a M-NTC with only 12 teams that he can be traded to. Unless he sustains a major career ending injury that puts him on LTIR, we're stuck with his $10.5M Cap Hit.

Kadri's 6 x $7M would only be slightly less difficult to get rid of.

Due to the above, I just don't think that #2 (tanking) would get us where we want to be that much quicker than #1 (rebuilding).

 

So, my vote goes to #1 (rebuilding) as I feel that it might be more entertaining.

 

[kehatch]

Rebuilding teams don't make money.  Owners don't sign off on plans that lose money.  Especially not with nearly a quarter of a billion dollars invested in long term "win now" contracts.  Especially not in the middle of an arena deal.  We may not like it, but teams that are in the running to make the playoffs make money, at least in a good market.  

 

If the objective is to win the cup then rebuilding is the right move.  You can't lose Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Monahan, Bennett, Giordano, Hanafin, etc over a few seasons and expect to win a cup.  Not with a marginal prospect pool.  But if the objective is to make money over the short term a rebuild isn't the right answer.  At least not until they naturally stop being in the playoffs running.  

[The_People1]

8 minutes ago, kehatch said:

Rebuilding teams don't make money.  Owners don't sign off on plans that lose money.  Especially not with nearly a quarter of a billion dollars invested in long term "win now" contracts.  Especially not in the middle of an arena deal.  We may not like it, but teams that are in the running to make the playoffs make money, at least in a good market.  

 

If the objective is to win the cup then rebuilding is the right move.  You can't lose Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Monahan, Bennett, Giordano, Hanafin, etc over a few seasons and expect to win a cup.  Not with a marginal prospect pool.  But if the objective is to make money over the short term a rebuild isn't the right answer.  At least not until they naturally stop being in the playoffs running.  

 

Welcome back.  It's been awhile.

 

Pretty much bang on.  The only way this franchise rebuilds is after trying to NOT rebuild and still misses the playoffs for several years in a row.  And that's the way it's trending unfortunately.

 

The core players nearing the end of their primes and no bluechip prospects coming up the system.  Future looks bleak.

[zima]

We are now into the 5 yr losing streak we have lost 70% of our goal scoring we've lost JH MrT and toffoli on top of that we have spent most of our money on 2 players that are just a little above average but they will not put us above average in scoring enabling us to succeed we let go a top goal scorer in Phillips because he is to small according to who? Now we have a GM who is not going to be able to move the needle for us because BT as far as I'm concerned purposely put us in such a bad spot that we will not get pass mediocracy for the next 5 yrs I believe that's why BT jumped ship. I know that our buddy from 80 Feet wants to believe we can pull out of this damage BT put upon us. I know I have the sky is falling attitude but even if Markstrom can get back to vesna quality play we don't have the horses to get into the playoffs and we also lost our first round pick thanks to BT moving Mony for our first another awesome move by BT. SO Darren if you do read this please let me know how we will survive the next 5 yrs with out hitting rock bottom and have 2 of our top players in there 30's ?

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, zima said:

We are now into the 5 yr losing streak we have lost 70% of our goal scoring we've lost JH MrT and toffoli on top of that we have spent most of our money on 2 players that are just a little above average but they will not put us above average in scoring enabling us to succeed we let go a top goal scorer in Phillips because he is to small according to who? Now we have a GM who is not going to be able to move the needle for us because BT as far as I'm concerned purposely put us in such a bad spot that we will not get pass mediocracy for the next 5 yrs I believe that's why BT jumped ship. I know that our buddy from 80 Feet wants to believe we can pull out of this damage BT put upon us. I know I have the sky is falling attitude but even if Markstrom can get back to vesna quality play we don't have the horses to get into the playoffs and we also lost our first round pick thanks to BT moving Mony for our first another awesome move by BT. SO Darren if you do read this please let me know how we will survive the next 5 yrs with out hitting rock bottom and have 2 of our top players in there 30's ?

I agree but can understand other members points of view. It's so hard seeing where this team is at and trying to wait patiently for what comes next. I get patience is all we can perform for now, I'm also miffed about the 1st, especially when it's clear the best players were moving on...

 

hard, but BT was still trying to win. Things went wrong. Some of us felt the team needed to be dismantled a few years ago, others just came to it this year. 
 

I won't lie, I was excited to see what Huberdeau could do. I was hoping the team WAS better than the previous group. 
 

it is hard to see where we are at. We want growth excitement. 

[MP5029]

Sounds like Backlund has decided he’s not gonna resign…any other TDL trade chip hey ownership….time to REBUILD 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Sounds like Backlund has decided he’s not gonna resign…any other TDL trade chip hey ownership….time to REBUILD 

 

 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Sounds like Backlund has decided he’s not gonna resign…any other TDL trade chip hey ownership….time to REBUILD 

 

Absolutely fantastic news.  I was so worried we would give him term and make him captain.  As Conroy said, anyone who doesn't want to be here needs to go.

[conundrumed]

Seeing various prospect ranking tallies makes me laugh. I see Ronni's lucky to slide into the top 10. Never ceases to amaze me that if we have an overseas prospect fans know zero about them, just revert to statistics from a short tournament. He was u20 at 16, Liiga sniffs at 17, Liiga at 18. He just turned 19.

Yet so few seem to understand that he'll be a more than capable Backlund replacement. But Suniev ranks higher amongst the fanbase, I guess because an 18yo playing for a top franchise in Finland's pro league wouldn't tear an absolute hole in the 2nd tier junior league in Canada?lol

Mind numbing. Detroit does the same with their most NHL-ready dman, Albert Johansson. Sandin-Pellikka is way ahead of him. Now that's hilarious. Like Zary, Kuznetsov, Poirier etc ahead of Ronni. "But, but, ceiling". Whatevs. Tell me that you know little about prospects without telling me that you know little about prospects.

I know we don't have a top farm in the league, but the sky isn't falling. Players are always replaceable but every fanbase overrates their players.

I have no idea why Ronni and Stromgren get virtually written off although they likely have the highest floors, with Kuznetsov, as guys that will actually be NHL players. Heck, I'm almost ready to see a Kuznetsov-Zadorov pairing.

We don't need a full rebuild. Lindholm isn't the be-all to end-all, fans just portray it that way. Carolina moved on just fine.

[MP5029]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Absolutely fantastic news.  I was so worried we would give him term and make him captain.  As Conroy said, anyone who doesn't want to be here needs to go.

100% agreed! 👍😊

[MP5029]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Seeing various prospect ranking tallies makes me laugh. I see Ronni's lucky to slide into the top 10. Never ceases to amaze me that if we have an overseas prospect fans know zero about them, just revert to statistics from a short tournament. He was u20 at 16, Liiga sniffs at 17, Liiga at 18. He just turned 19.

Yet so few seem to understand that he'll be a more than capable Backlund replacement. But Suniev ranks higher amongst the fanbase, I guess because an 18yo playing for a top franchise in Finland's pro league wouldn't tear an absolute hole in the 2nd tier junior league in Canada?lol

Mind numbing. Detroit does the same with their most NHL-ready dman, Albert Johansson. Sandin-Pellikka is way ahead of him. Now that's hilarious. Like Zary, Kuznetsov, Poirier etc ahead of Ronni. "But, but, ceiling". Whatevs. Tell me that you know little about prospects without telling me that you know little about prospects.

I know we don't have a top farm in the league, but the sky isn't falling. Players are always replaceable but every fanbase overrates their players.

I have no idea why Ronni and Stromgren get virtually written off although they likely have the highest floors, with Kuznetsov, as guys that will actually be NHL players. Heck, I'm almost ready to see a Kuznetsov-Zadorov pairing.

We don't need a full rebuild. Lindholm isn't the be-all to end-all, fans just portray it that way. Carolina moved on just fine.

You really feel Ronni will be a more

than capable Backlund replacement? That’s fantastic news…trade Backlund now and make room for this kid! 👍😊

[conundrumed]

36 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

You really feel Ronni will be a more

than capable Backlund replacement? That’s fantastic news…trade Backlund now and make room for this kid! 👍😊

He's only 19 through this season so likely a year or 2 out, but we'll see come camp. Not sure if he'll be here or back with Tappara for camp?

[jjgallow]

It's really hard imho to define a Backlund replacement because he's such an anomalie.

 

He's one of the most talented players we ever drafted, all time imho, and could just never translate it to 100 point nhl seasons.

 

It does, however,  explain how early  he made the NHL and also how easily he's stil producing at his age now.

 

Not sure if we'll ever see a Backlund again.   But definitely if you see Backlund as more of a support player, as many do, then yes we have ways to fill that.

 

Our biggest issues will be replacing D and goaltending. 

[robrob74]

17 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

It's really hard imho to define a Backlund replacement because he's such an anomalie.

 

He's one of the most talented players we ever drafted, all time imho, and could just never translate it to 100 point nhl seasons.

 

It does, however,  explain how early  he made the NHL and also how easily he's stil producing at his age now.

 

Not sure if we'll ever see a Backlund again.   But definitely if you see Backlund as more of a support player, as many do, then yes we have ways to fill that.

 

Our biggest issues will be replacing D and goaltending. 

I agree,

 

There are no 100 point seasons playing with Bouma, or all of the mentees he had to train to play in the NHL.

 

Did he hold Tkachuk back? Or was it Tkachuk's time to take a next step?

 

tasked with defend first, he held up that part of the bargain. I wonder what it would have been like if he had another top line winger along with Tkachuk? Coleman, not a top liner, a typical 3rd or 4th liner. Frolik, maybe 2nd liner is pushing it, but definitely a 3rd liner. 
 

I fully believe players are a sum of the line's parts that they're on. While players can elevate others, those elevated players can only push a Backlund so far up. 
 

I could see him as a 60-85 point guy in the right situations with the right players. But we misused him. He could have been the C Iginla needed back in the day. 

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I agree,

 

There are no 100 point seasons playing with Bouma, or all of the mentees he had to train to play in the NHL.

 

Did he hold Tkachuk back? Or was it Tkachuk's time to take a next step?

 

tasked with defend first, he held up that part of the bargain. I wonder what it would have been like if he had another top line winger along with Tkachuk? Coleman, not a top liner, a typical 3rd or 4th liner. Frolik, maybe 2nd liner is pushing it, but definitely a 3rd liner. 
 

I fully believe players are a sum of the line's parts that they're on. While players can elevate others, those elevated players can only push a Backlund so far up. 
 

I could see him as a 60-85 point guy in the right situations with the right players. But we misused him. He could have been the C Iginla needed back in the day. 

 

Personally, I still don't see Tkachuk as a defensively smart player, but that is me.  Backlund took that role to allow him to worry about forechecking and offense.  Backlund is only now held back by Backlund.  He makes good odd man rushes on his own but rarely uses his line.  He shoots wide or mid target.