Blow It Up?

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I cannot deny this.

 

Few on here would call me optimistic.    But the reality is that when I claim this to be a GM issue and not an ownership issue, I'm being optimistic.

 

This is clearly beyond players and coaches, in my mind.   And even if you blame the players/coaches, at some point it takes you back to the GM.

 

I have to have some hope that a better GM could either solve this, or negotiate a better direction with owners.   Which possibly comes down to finding a GM who can explain in business terms that building a championship team can generate similar or more revenue without unnacceptable risk levels.  Or, they get strapped for cash and are forced to rebuild properly.

 

I think we have to have some hope that his is a solvable problem while recognising that only ownership knows if this hope is warranted.

see, I see it as a coach and GM problem. The players who weren’t playing up to snuff still aren’t fully playing up to snuff. When they aren’t there isn’t anyone to pick up the reins when they are not playing. The GM built an unmotivated group. Is that the players or the culture the team builds? Who determines the culture? 
 

I am not saying Hartley is the answer, nor is his style, but he did get the teams skating with a never die attitude. Since then the culture changed. It went from earned to just given. Some players can get it given while others have to earn it. But that also started with Hartley, his last year. 
 

something isn’t jiving and you can blame leadership or whomever. I just don’t think the leadership or team is holding each other accountable. 
 

now the coaching has been horrible too, but then that could also be the product of the team that was built. But there are still a lot of questionable calls.

 

I am on the side that the GM doesn’t know what he is trying to build. He’s been good at some stuff. They are drafting NHL players, but I don’t think a lot of them add to an identity and most of them are 2nd or 3rd liners on good teams. 
 

no #1C. We use a possible #1RW as a C in which case he’s a good #2C, which Monahan and Backlund are as well. 
 

there are no options up the Right Side for the top 2 lines. 
 

Leivo is a 3rd liner

Dube is a 3rd liner

Bennett is a 3rd/4th liner

i wanna say Mangiapane is a 2nd/3rd liner but a really good one. 
 

Monahan 2nd liner within #1PP capable.

 

johnny 1st line LW. 
Tkachuk excellent 2nd line LW, good 1st line LW. 
Lindholm 2nd Line C and a good line 1 RW. 
 

if you think Tkachuk or Gaudreau are good 1st line LW and that Mangiapane can supplement a 2nd line left wing, should we not trade a Tkachuk or a Gaudreau (LW) for a RW?

 

we need a #1c too. This team is just Mumbo jumbo of players. Pick skill and some will stick. That seems to be the mantra.

[jjgallow]

 

 

It happened.   Even the guys blocking me are on the same page now.

 

It only took 9 years and 4 months lol.   

 

So here's a question.....   When does this thread change from a negative thread to a constructive one?

 

Rebuilds can actually be a very positive experience once we get past all the arguements about who screwed up etc.   You get to watch some of the best talent in the world play for your city and come into their prime.

 

I ...  actually....agree with @cross16 lol.    I don't think the tipping point is firing Ward.  Whether he's good, or bad...firing him doesn't turn the corner.

 

Is it firing... BT?     Is it...draft day?    Is it a rebuild statement from management?     Is it selling for picks at the trade deadline?

 

When does the mood shift?

 

 

(if my memory serves me correctly I feel like we shifted our mood last time when we sold for picks at TD and then Feaster made an announcement)

[The_People1]

It's a good season to blow it up and rebuild.  No one is allowed to go to the games to watch anyways.

 

And next season?  I sincerely hope life gets back to normal and we can go to games again but you just never know.  No one may be allowed to go watch games live again next season also.  

[pikey7883]

10 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

It happened.   Even the guys blocking me are on the same page now.

 

It only took 9 years and 4 months lol.   

 

So here's a question.....   When does this thread change from a negative thread to a constructive one?

 

Rebuilds can actually be a very positive experience once we get past all the arguements about who screwed up etc.   You get to watch some of the best talent in the world play for your city and come into their prime.

 

I ...  actually....agree with @cross16 lol.    I don't think the tipping point is firing Ward.  Whether he's good, or bad...firing him doesn't turn the corner.

 

Is it firing... BT?     Is it...draft day?    Is it a rebuild statement from management?     Is it selling for picks at the trade deadline?

 

When does the mood shift?

 

 

(if my memory serves me correctly I feel like we shifted our mood last time when we sold for picks at TD and then Feaster made an announcement)

I am in the camp that I hate rebuilds, maybe it’s because I’m impatient, or the fact that I like certain players too much and am to proud to admit that they may be the problem. I also lately have noticed that my criticisms of the coaching staff and leadership group of this team have come across as negative which is why I have slowed down. But I wanted to attach a post I made and am curious to see what your response to it would be?

 

[cross16]

To be clear I am not advocating for re build nor do I think one will happen. The idea of blowing it up and trading everyone does not make sense to me especially considering that odds are you are going to wind up right back in the same place.

 

I am in favor of adding more high end talent to the organization and I am in favor of fixing center ice and finding an impact center. if you can do that via trade, awesome but i'm very skeptical you can. You likely need to fix that via the draft so the Flames should take advantage of what is a unique opportunity, short season with no fans/playoff revenue, to try and add those pieces. 

 

Even better if they can pick up an addition 1st or a few picks at the TDL and really inject this organization with some talent. Could turn this into an asset rich organization which gives a significantly better foundation to move forward off of. 

[JTech780]

I don't think we need to do a full blown rebuild, but a quick retool on the fly is more what I would look to do. 

 

Take a step back now while you aren't missing out on gate revenues. Get a top 5/10 pick, move a core piece or two in the offseason, hire a new coach.

 

Start fresh next season. 

 

 

[ABC923]

There’s been a big problem in the room for years imo. Not sure if it’s Gio and a lack of leadership, Mony and Johnny and their lack of mental toughness, Bennett and Dube and their frustration of usage, etc. We’ve been through a lot of coaches with this group, and while the current HC is questionable, at some point you gotta say it’s the players. That’s why I say blow it up. Maybe don’t trade everybody, but offload at least three pieces. I would probably move Johnny and Mony, as they will bring back good returns. Try to get good young prospects who haven’t broken in yet (Cozens has been mentioned for example). I would also move Backlund, he carries a big salary and his age puts him outside our new window. Run with Lindholm and Bennett as your top 2 centres. We will be bad, but after next season some of our prospects will start breaking in, Gio’s contract ends and we’ll have tons of cap space (more than enough to extend Tkachuk and carry Looch one more season, plus make some moves). We’ll have two high drafts, and if all goes well we will be very competitive in three seasons time.

[CheersMan]

22 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I don't think we need to do a full blown rebuild, but a quick retool on the fly is more what I would look to do. 

 

Take a step back now while you aren't missing out on gate revenues. Get a top 5/10 pick, move a core piece or two in the offseason, hire a new coach.

 

Start fresh next season. 

 

 

Everyone has a right to an opinion. Taking a page out of the Jay Feaster handbook is certainly an option.

[MP5029]

36 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I don't think we need to do a full blown rebuild, but a quick retool on the fly is more what I would look to do. 

 

Take a step back now while you aren't missing out on gate revenues. Get a top 5/10 pick, move a core piece or two in the offseason, hire a new coach.

 

Start fresh next season. 

 

 

I’d be more inclined to spread that over 2 years and get a top 5-10 prospect in 2022 michelle deeper draft...use this year and next to move out as best you can older core players to make cap room:

 

Gio

Ryan

Lucic 

Backlund

 

and pending on the return maybe:

 

Gaudreau

monahan

 

though the latter two I would be carful moving for the right return they are not really the biggest issue 

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

There’s been a big problem in the room for years imo. Not sure if it’s Gio and a lack of leadership, Mony and Johnny and their lack of mental toughness, Bennett and Dube and their frustration of usage, etc. We’ve been through a lot of coaches with this group, and while the current HC is questionable, at some point you gotta say it’s the players. That’s why I say blow it up. Maybe don’t trade everybody, but offload at least three pieces. I would probably move Johnny and Mony, as they will bring back good returns. Try to get good young prospects who haven’t broken in yet (Cozens has been mentioned for example). I would also move Backlund, he carries a big salary and his age puts him outside our new window. Run with Lindholm and Bennett as your top 2 centres. We will be bad, but after next season some of our prospects will start breaking in, Gio’s contract ends and we’ll have tons of cap space (more than enough to extend Tkachuk and carry Looch one more season, plus make some moves). We’ll have two high drafts, and if all goes well we will be very competitive in three seasons time.

 

The problem is no one can define what the problem is.  As an outsider, we may focus on Gaudreau and Monahan as the problem, since they are played against the top lines (power vs power) in the playoffs it seems, and they fail to deliver.  Or we could suggest that leadership is lacking, as Gio has not been part of the solution with his struggles during the playoffs.  Or we could say that the room is tired of Tkachuk's antics.  Unless you are sure of the reasons and the trade addresses the problem directly, you don't make the trade.

 

For the coming TDL, I would recommend trading Gio to a team looking for a veteran leader to join the room.

Do it early enough that any quarantine required happens soon enough to help (not sure what will happen with CDN players going to the USA - could change).

It doesn't really fix the room, but it may provide a better dynamic for moving forward with any system changes.

 

Pick up a bona fide top 6 RW.  Use any cap gained trading Gio to weaponize cap space.  Trade Bennett and move on.  

Bring in a real NHL coach and work towards the future; it may not be enough to fix this season, but it should provide the right platform for next year.

Identify who is the right talent to keep; I don't trust Ward to be able to make that determination.

 

[JTech780]

26 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

Everyone has a right to an opinion. Taking a page out of the Jay Feaster handbook is certainly an option.

 

We are in a much better situation now then when Feaster wanted to do a retool. There really wasn't any pieces to build around at that time so a retool didn't make sense.

 

Now there are plenty of quality pieces to go forward with, Tkachuk, Markstrom, Lindholm, Andersson, Valimaki, Mangiapane, Dube. IMO a full year down isn't required.

[JTech780]

14 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

I’d be more inclined to spread that over 2 years and get a top 5-10 prospect in 2022 michelle deeper draft...use this year and next to move out as best you can older core players to make cap room:

 

Gio

Ryan

Lucic 

Backlund

 

and pending on the return maybe:

 

Gaudreau

monahan

 

though the latter two I would be carful moving for the right return they are not really the biggest issue 

 

And as a result of trading a core piece or two the retool may spread into a second season, and that's fine, but I don't think this needs to be a 5-6 year process.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

I am in the camp that I hate rebuilds, maybe it’s because I’m impatient, or the fact that I like certain players too much and am to proud to admit that they may be the problem. I also lately have noticed that my criticisms of the coaching staff and leadership group of this team have come across as negative which is why I have slowed down. But I wanted to attach a post I made and am curious to see what your response to it would be?

 

 

That was an honest post, thanks.  I think you actually embody many here.   Letting go is hard ha.   But the Flames are making it easier.

 

I think that if you posted that in a game-day thread around the 5-1 loss mark, you'd get a lot of likes.    But if you post it on an off-day or right before a game, it would be seen as treacherous.    And that's...expected.    but at some point, the game-day anger spills over into the off-days and fans start to go through a process not unlike a grieving process.

 

I like hockey and I like Calgary and I want to see a cup here.    I don't get attached to players, I get attached to my family and friends and I want to celebrate a cup with them on the red mile.   so that's where I've always come from.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

To be clear I am not advocating for re build nor do I think one will happen. The idea of blowing it up and trading everyone does not make sense to me especially considering that odds are you are going to wind up right back in the same place.

 

I am in favor of adding more high end talent to the organization and I am in favor of fixing center ice and finding an impact center. if you can do that via trade, awesome but i'm very skeptical you can. You likely need to fix that via the draft so the Flames should take advantage of what is a unique opportunity, short season with no fans/playoff revenue, to try and add those pieces. 

 

Even better if they can pick up an addition 1st or a few picks at the TDL and really inject this organization with some talent. Could turn this into an asset rich organization which gives a significantly better foundation to move forward off of. 

 

Hey man, I'm on board

 

ok everyone we're NOT rebuilding lol.

 

We are Simply tanking for the draft and trading away our best players for picks.    Okay?   That's all.

 

Totally not a rebuild, Promise!

 

Ahhhhh, buddy.    We've had some good times and some bad.   Ok mostly bad lol.   You are still a little reluctant, but welcome aboard.    It's inevitable and you are going to love it.     It will beat the hell out of what we're being subjected to now.    As long as we don't F it up like Edmonton does.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

 

And as a result of trading a core piece or two the retool may spread into a second season, and that's fine, but I don't think this needs to be a 5-6 year process.

 

I think we have to be honest and say that a 5-6 year process is possible.  We've seen Edmonton.   Can it be shortened?  Yes.  but not down to one year.

 

Basically this:   Your first tank year, you pick up goalies and D in the first round (ideally RHS but what happens happens).  Because they take longer to develop.    If you disagree that's fine, but the 2021 draft is all about goalies and D, so, it's happening that way (thankfully).

 

2021 your top talent is 18 years old.   2022 you're picking up some centers etc, who will develop a little quicker.

 

The reality is that you Hope your top end talent are impact players by the age of 21 or 22.    

 

If so, we're out of a rebuild in 2024 at the earliest.  But just Barely out of a rebuild.     3 years is your minimum and 4-5 is more realistic.

 

I think it's worth keeping in mind that the Reason we're here is because:

1.  We cut our last rebuild short out of impatience

2.  We didn't start it with goalies and D.   And gave no consideration to RHS.

 

 

Here's the good thing gents.   It's less of a debate this time.   We're tanking whether we like it or not.    And Goalies and D are what's available in the draft.  So we're doing it right this time even if fate has to drag us there.

[jjgallow]

On 2/4/2021 at 9:05 PM, CheersMan said:

Make it 40 games. That will give you extra time to caress your U16 hockey cards.

 

what a funny guy

 

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

Taking a page out of the Jay Feaster handbook is certainly an option.

 

oh what just happened there lol...

 

Sorry.  But that was coming.   It's out of my system now lol....no hard feellings.

[CheersMan]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

what a funny guy

 

 

oh what just happened there lol...

 

Sorry.  But that was coming.   It's out of my system now lol....no hard feellings.

You're 19 games early. 

 

What happened there? Simply pointing out that people have opinions, and that one sounded a lot like JF, whom no one seemed to like around here. Retools happen every year, that's nothing new. Who you are using to retool with is another story.

 

The offense his died off the last 6 games, relax everyone. I have more patience than that, maybe its 7 games maybe its more, I'll give this team till TDL then I make decisions on every member of this team.   

 

[jjgallow]

36 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

You're 19 games early. 

 

What happened there? Simply pointing out that people have opinions, and that one sounded a lot like JF, whom no one seemed to like around here. Retools happen every year, that's nothing new. Who you are using to retool with is another story.

 

The offense his died off the last 6 games, relax everyone. I have more patience than that, maybe its 7 games maybe its more, I'll give this team till TDL then I make decisions on every member of this team.   

 

Great to hear you have patience

 

That's really going to help with your ongoing support of the rebuild

[CheersMan]

40 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Great to hear you have patience

 

That's really going to help with your ongoing support of the rebuild

I'll support the rebuild when its time. Now is not the time. Now is the time to get the season on track with all the pieces we presently have in place. 

[pikey7883]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

That was an honest post, thanks.  I think you actually embody many here.   Letting go is hard ha.   But the Flames are making it easier.

 

I think that if you posted that in a game-day thread around the 5-1 loss mark, you'd get a lot of likes.    But if you post it on an off-day or right before a game, it would be seen as treacherous.    And that's...expected.    but at some point, the game-day anger spills over into the off-days and fans start to go through a process not unlike a grieving process.

 

I like hockey and I like Calgary and I want to see a cup here.    I don't get attached to players, I get attached to my family and friends and I want to celebrate a cup with them on the red mile.   so that's where I've always come from.

Thanks for the response, I don’t usually post to get likes lol, didn’t even occur to me that was a thing. I also like to process my thoughts which is why I usually post the next day. 
I hope that we are close to trading Gio, I identified the Leafs (even though Salary is difficult), that team would be a good fit. I also thought Columbus prior to their slump, but I do really like LA as trading partners.
I don’t think your getting draft picks from them right now. I wonder if Gio + Dube works to get you Jaret Anderson-Dolan and a D prospect, I prefer Helge Grans (if there’s a way to get Akil Thomas) I really like him also.

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, JTech780 said:

I don't think we need to do a full blown rebuild, but a quick retool on the fly is more what I would look to do. 

 

Take a step back now while you aren't missing out on gate revenues. Get a top 5/10 pick, move a core piece or two in the offseason, hire a new coach.

 

Start fresh next season. 

 

 

 

We don't need a full blown rebuild like I said in the other thread.  We have young pieces that if we just trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano, and Backlund for prospects that are 1 or 2 years away from NHL ready, then we will have 3 or 4 new star players in 2 years.

[bosn111]

With Markstrom, Tanev, Tkachuk, Lindholm, Backlund (He has a NTC), and with the way Mangiapane, Hanifin and Andersson have been stepping up, I would say that the rebuild is nearly complete. As stated in the trade thread, the only player left fro 4 years ago if we trade Giordano, Gaudreau and Monahan would be Backlund. 
 

Are there pieces that we still need? Absolutely. But being willing to move the big 3 would likely help with some of those issues. Doesn’t require a tank, but accept a lesser season or 2. 

[robrob74]

12 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

That was an honest post, thanks.  I think you actually embody many here.   Letting go is hard ha.   But the Flames are making it easier.

 

I think that if you posted that in a game-day thread around the 5-1 loss mark, you'd get a lot of likes.    But if you post it on an off-day or right before a game, it would be seen as treacherous.    And that's...expected.    but at some point, the game-day anger spills over into the off-days and fans start to go through a process not unlike a grieving process.

 

I like hockey and I like Calgary and I want to see a cup here.    I don't get attached to players, I get attached to my family and friends and I want to celebrate a cup with them on the red mile.   so that's where I've always come from.

not if you post it in a year that they came in 1st in the West but saw all of these similar habits, it’s just as treacherous. 
 

I did used to love a good comeback story, I am realizing I don’t love it as much as I did in my youth. Too romantic!

[robrob74]

Anyone who says that there are problems that can come with tanking or blowing it up because look at Buffalo, Edmonton and Florida, teams that have not tanked well. 
 

I think if that’s what you think can happen, you already don’t have faith in this organization, their scouting or drafting because really, that’s what you’re criticizing them for... 

 

I don’t have faith in this organization to find a bonafide star unless they draft in the top 7.

I get that Even Bennett is a failure. 
 

so how do we get that #1C, #1D, #1RW, etc if we don’t draft that high?

 

so we’ve been good at drafting average middle 6 guys, made a home run on Gaudreau, and found a goal scorer in monahan... Andersson is a good but 2nd pair guy. 
 

we need some of those first round draft picks back, or the 2nd rounders that were traded for Satoshi Nakamoto. 
 

I think we have to draft high for the 1st pairs or 1C’s or RWers. 

[jjgallow]

53 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Anyone who says that there are problems that can come with tanking or blowing it up because look at Buffalo, Edmonton and Florida, teams that have not tanked well. 
 

I think if that’s what you think can happen, you already don’t have faith in this organization, their scouting or drafting because really, that’s what you’re criticizing them for... 

 

I don’t have faith in this organization to find a bonafide star unless they draft in the top 7.

I get that Even Bennett is a failure. 
 

so how do we get that #1C, #1D, #1RW, etc if we don’t draft that high?

 

so we’ve been good at drafting average middle 6 guys, made a home run on Gaudreau, and found a goal scorer in monahan... Andersson is a good but 2nd pair guy. 
 

we need some of those first round draft picks back, or the 2nd rounders that were traded for Satoshi Nakamoto. 
 

I think we have to draft high for the 1st pairs or 1C’s or RWers. 

 

Yes, there is that much larger question of how do you rebuild well.

 

And to be honest I don't have faith that current management can.  So yes I'm of the camp that a rebuild needs to start with management changes.

 

On the positive side though, I think our drafting has been okay.    You know....

Feaster's record isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be.   Surprisingly. 

 

Anyway.  Yeah.

 

I still support drafting Bennett.  Although I admit it was a risky pick.   I don't support how he was developed. 

 

The hard part about getting  picks at the trade deadline is that you basically never get top 10 picks.

 

Value is part of this.   Another is simply that contenders don't have said picks.

 

What could be possible though is a deal where we get a top prospect.     That happens.

 

I just hope it all gets figured out and the cup comes back where it belongs