Blow It Up?

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

The chances of getting it right from the ground up are slim.

 

Agreed.    And that is why I'm so adamant that it needs to start with the GM.   A great GM wouldn't have us in this situation to begin with, so the chances of a mediocre one orchestrating a successful rebuild are slim.  Their only role can be causing one.   And BT's on that.

 

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

Worth the cost to do so?  You tell me.

 

Yes

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

No where in my post did I defend Flames playoff history, I was referring to this team.  I believe “Blow-up” refers to our best players, that being SM and JHG specifically, both of whom are either a top 10 goal-scorer or pay-maker in this league. I’m not convinced moving them now at 70 cents on the dollar will bring back an equivalent, but instead cast us to the bottom with the other basement dwellers for who knows how long. We still have a window of time with these guys at a decent dollar, might be best to add some complementary pieces now and give it another shot. The past does not dictate the future.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to be hard on you I was just dying to say that for a long time (not directly to you).  I often feel like we are great fans in the sense that we seem to be happy with anything.   That's great during hockey season but during the offseason I think we should want more.

 

The thing is, everyone here seems ok with what is...well....not very good hockey.

 

So, why wouldn't they be okay with a rebuild?   I don't see much difference other than a chance at something better.    

 

At some point, the rebuild happens whether you want it to or not.   But those are more painful.

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to be hard on you I was just dying to say that for a long time (not directly to you).  I often feel like we are great fans in the sense that we seem to be happy with anything.   That's great during hockey season but during the offseason I think we should want more.

 

The thing is, everyone here seems ok with what is...well....not very good hockey.

 

So, why wouldn't they be okay with a rebuild?   I don't see much difference other than a chance at something better.    

 

At some point, the rebuild happens whether you want it to or not.   But those are more painful.

 

I get a little touchy, but I was just being direct (I hope).

I'm not okay with a rebuild because of the opportunity cost.

Not this year, but there may be a year when the perfect player is available in trade or UFA.

Having a rebuild team probably negates that.

 

I'm also frankly not happy watching another 4-5 years of rebuild hockey.

VAN was last a real playoff team in 2012.

Finally they look to have it sorted out.

Even now, they might take a step back next season due to cap.

 

Them's the risks of course.

I have no problem building on a team that needs some tweaks.

We are more than a single player away, but part of the problem is cap tied up in some players.

Two players totaling $12m that are in their 30's.

Not to mention Lucic, who I have no real problem with, tweaks or no tweaks.

So, while it may make sense to move Gaudreau for Marner (my suggestion elsewhere), or to move Monahan for pick/prospect, that kind of defeats the purpose.

They are not the real problem are they.

A top line C capable of > 60 points.

A dynamic winger capable of > 70 points.

Really we miss 1/3 of a 2nd line and 1/2 the defense.

We have to address the latter anyway.

We have a few players that could be really good for this club but are stuck behind a couple of serviceable NHL players.

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

No where in my post did I defend Flames playoff history, I was referring to this team.  I believe “Blow-up” refers to our best players, that being SM and JHG specifically, both of whom are either a top 10 goal-scorer or pay-maker in this league. I’m not convinced moving them now at 70 cents on the dollar will bring back an equivalent, but instead cast us to the bottom with the other basement dwellers for who knows how long. We still have a window of time with these guys at a decent dollar, might be best to add some complementary pieces now and give it another shot. The past does not dictate the future.

I agree with the fact that with the current flat cap scenerio this is probably one of the worst times to try a rebuild or major retool. But what you are suggesting is basically what has been unsuccessfully tried for the last 10 + years.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

Outside of these message boards, what's the feeling from local media and general fanbase? Do the majority think success is only a player or two away or is patience wearing thin. 

[travel_dude]

21 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Outside of these message boards, what's the feeling from local media and general fanbase? Do the majority think success is only a player or two away or is patience wearing thin. 

 

If you believe Francis, the entire fanbase is out for blood.

I think it's closer to fans hate losing.

Some want change to demonstrate a commitment to a winning team.

If there's something concrete done (coach, starter goalie, top 6 forward added, or defense holes fixed or all of the above) I think the majority would be happy.

Would Kadri made that much of a difference?

Probably not, but it adds a new dynamic.

Every move that makes the team better can have doubling effects.

 

Cut down on GA, and suddenly we are able to outscore other teams in close battles.

Exploit other team's weaknesses (coaching) and you have an edge.

Add a player that could fit in a multitude of spots and suddenly you have new looks. 

[robrob74]

44 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to be hard on you I was just dying to say that for a long time (not directly to you).  I often feel like we are great fans in the sense that we seem to be happy with anything.   That's great during hockey season but during the offseason I think we should want more.

 

The thing is, everyone here seems ok with what is...well....not very good hockey.

 

So, why wouldn't they be okay with a rebuild?   I don't see much difference other than a chance at something better.    

 

At some point, the rebuild happens whether you want it to or not.   But those are more painful.

 

see, I am opposite. During the season I expect more. The thing people are pointing out is this is 2020 and the days of playing a full 60 or a full season are over. But I expect more from the team and if the higher paid players. 
 

last year I was not happy with a lot of starts but the whole, “it’s the third now blow ‘em out!” Was a thing and I would get lambasted when I’d critique the Part of the Game wHere the team wasn’t skating, or playing to their opponents’s level. The team out scored their deficiencies because they have skill. I asked what happens in the playoffs when they concentrate on Johnny and the rest of the team can’t keep up enough offence? 
 

it was good hockey to them because there were a lot of comebacks and a lot of offence late in the game. But I wasn’t happy with how the team was shaping up. I expectEd and still more. 
 

to say JH and SM had this many points is really stat cherry-picking. Yes, they had those points, but no, they didn’t score when it mattered the most AND the true reality is that the Dallas series was technically the first round. So there’s that. Plus the Dallas team really clogged things up and made it hard to play the game “our way.” I still think it’s being a bigger team with the ability to use a heavier body to make it harder for our smaller team to get around or through. But that’s perspective and others will differ.

[robrob74]

39 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I agree with the fact that with the current flat cap scenerio this is probably one of the worst times to try a rebuild or major retool. But what you are suggesting is basically what has been unsuccessfully tried for the last 10 + years.

 

Yeah, I hear you. The constant adding to this core. There have been a lot of poor additions with maybe one or two that has worked. Ryan is one, Reider is another. Rinaldo is what it is, but the rest have been failures.
 

I guess Talbot could be a success. I’d only be comfortable in giving him a two year deal. He might want three or four. 3 would be ok if the final year drops his cap. 
 

4-4-2. That is 3.33M per season. 

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Outside of these message boards, what's the feeling from local media and general fanbase? Do the majority think success is only a player or two away or is patience wearing thin. 

 

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

see, I am opposite. During the season I expect more. The thing people are pointing out is this is 2020 and the days of playing a full 60 or a full season are over. But I expect more from the team and if the higher paid players. 
 

last year I was not happy with a lot of starts but the whole, “it’s the third now blow ‘em out!” Was a thing and I would get lambasted when I’d critique the Part of the Game wHere the team wasn’t skating, or playing to their opponents’s level. The team out scored their deficiencies because they have skill. I asked what happens in the playoffs when they concentrate on Johnny and the rest of the team can’t keep up enough offence? 
 

it was good hockey to them because there were a lot of comebacks and a lot of offence late in the game. But I wasn’t happy with how the team was shaping up. I expectEd and still more. 
 

to say JH and SM had this many points is really stat cherry-picking. Yes, they had those points, but no, they didn’t score when it mattered the most AND the true reality is that the Dallas series was technically the first round. So there’s that. Plus the Dallas team really clogged things up and made it hard to play the game “our way.” I still think it’s being a bigger team with the ability to use a heavier body to make it harder for our smaller team to get around or through. But that’s perspective and others will differ.

 

 

Yeah I think the fanbase would welcome a rebuild, for the most part.  Obviously a lot of love for JG and rightfully so.    But generally I think there is more love for playoff hockey and it would be well accepted.

 

I also...think...that it would be accepted here.  The last one was with open arms.   The same people kicking and screaming to avoid a rebuild were the ones cheering it on once it began.

 

I feel it's a bit like ripping a bandaid off.    A lot of resistance until it's happened and then a big sigh of relief "glad we're done with that, wow there's some exciting stuff happening here now"

 

@travel_dude   You know you'd be right in there loving it lol

 

 

3 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I agree with the fact that with the current flat cap scenerio this is probably one of the worst times to try a rebuild or major retool. But what you are suggesting is basically what has been unsuccessfully tried for the last 10 + years.

 

I actually think it's a fantastic time.  Easily solved, we just take on project players with high salaries from the other teams, and try to rehabilitate them.   If you succeed, well, hey you're rebuild's over and you have a bunch of new prospects.

 

The main reason I think it's fantastic, though, is the strength of the 2021 and 2022 drafts.  2020 is just so-so but 21 and 22 matter.  Big time.  Shane Wright is just one of many.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

to say JH and SM had this many points is really stat cherry-picking. Yes, they had those points, but no, they didn’t score when it mattered the most AND the true reality is that the Dallas series was technically the first round. So there’s that. Plus the Dallas team really clogged things up and made it hard to play the game “our way.” I still think it’s being a bigger team with the ability to use a heavier body to make it harder for our smaller team to get around or through. But that’s perspective and others will differ.

 

To say 5v5 mattered more is forgetting the obvious.

PP goals and shorties are usually the differences that matter to a game.

Bennett, Monahan and Gaudreau had 4, 5 and 6 PP points respectively.

Those were needed goals.

The more unfortunate stat is GA.

But it also shows that none of the above were scored upon even strength.

Bennett even.

JH and Monahan even.

 

So, while I agree 5v5 is important, when you skate EV to a draw, it's PP that matters.

If the other lines were all even at 5v5 we would be in the 2nd round.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

To say 5v5 mattered more is forgetting the obvious.

PP goals and shorties are usually the differences that matter to a game.

Bennett, Monahan and Gaudreau had 4, 5 and 6 PP points respectively.

Those were needed goals.

The more unfortunate stat is GA.

But it also shows that none of the above were scored upon even strength.

Bennett even.

JH and Monahan even.

 

So, while I agree 5v5 is important, when you skate EV to a draw, it's PP that matters.

If the other lines were all even at 5v5 we would be in the 2nd round.

 

are the numbers including Winnipeg? I don’t count that as it’s more a regular season round. The hockey is different from the Winnipeg series to the Dallas. 
they just weren’t good enough.

[JTech780]

For me the lack of production at 5v5 with this core is concerning, but the biggest issue with this core is the fact that they continue crumble when the going gets tough. This has been the M.O. of this team for years now. This core just isn't strong mentally. IMO they just haven't shown anything close to the ability needed to have success in the playoffs.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

For me the lack of production at 5v5 with this core is concerning, but the biggest issue with this core is the fact that they continue crumble when the going gets tough. This has been the M.O. of this team for years now. This core just isn't strong mentally. IMO they just haven't shown anything close to the ability needed to have success in the playoffs.

 

in the playoffs as the games get deeper power plays get sparse. It killed the Canucks in 2011 as the finals weren’t reffed the same and they died by the pp and lack of 5vs5 scoring. 

[jjgallow]

 

[travel_dude]

36 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

Funny but this feels a little early.

Normally, you would be proclaiming the "next one" a month or two into the season. 🤔

[jjgallow]

8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Funny but this feels a little early.

Normally, you would be proclaiming the "next one" a month or two into the season. 🤔

 

There's 2-3 others in the next few drafts who are not too far behind him.   McDavid should have been ours but fate has offered us a 2nd chance.

 

While we debate blowing it up, I'm not really sure there's any way to avoid getting lottery picks these next few years.  Only question is if we want a return on some of our assets in the meantime.

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

There's 2-3 others in the next few drafts who are not too far behind him.   McDavid should have been ours but fate has offered us a 2nd chance.

 

While we debate blowing it up, I'm not really sure there's any way to avoid getting lottery picks these next few years.  Only question is if we want a return on some of our assets in the meantime.

 

There a couple of things that could happe:

1) we add/subtract from the current roster - nothing majot, just tweaks

2) we trade from the core for core replacement players

3) we trade core for futures

 

Any one of these could result in a lotto pick.  3rd option is much more likely, and potentialy have multiple 1sts.

But, and it's a big butt, those are more likely to be 2020 picks.

Unless the trade is in year or after the draft.

 

I would prefer we go to option 2.  We get a top 6 forward that fits the team better than what we have or we end up with a 1/2 D-man. 

I may be one of the few, but moving Bcklund makes more sense than Gaudreau.

EDM is reportedly shopping Larsson and Klefbom.

I can;t stand Larsson, but Klefbom would be interesting.

Brodie with a slapshot.

Backlund for Klefbom and Puljujarvi.

Or Ryan for Puljujarvi.

Not that I think Poolparty is good, just that it would be a top 9 RHS player 

Play him with Bennett.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

There a couple of things that could happe:

1) we add/subtract from the current roster - nothing majot, just tweaks

2) we trade from the core for core replacement players

3) we trade core for futures

 

Any one of these could result in a lotto pick.  3rd option is much more likely, and potentialy have multiple 1sts.

But, and it's a big butt, those are more likely to be 2020 picks.

Unless the trade is in year or after the draft.

 

I would prefer we go to option 2.  We get a top 6 forward that fits the team better than what we have or we end up with a 1/2 D-man. 

I may be one of the few, but moving Bcklund makes more sense than Gaudreau.

EDM is reportedly shopping Larsson and Klefbom.

I can;t stand Larsson, but Klefbom would be interesting.

Brodie with a slapshot.

Backlund for Klefbom and Puljujarvi.

Or Ryan for Puljujarvi.

Not that I think Poolparty is good, just that it would be a top 9 RHS player 

Play him with Bennett.

 

 

Interesting.   Well, as previously discussed I think whatever option we go with it comes down to the details.  Not what you do but how well you do it.   And we wouldn't have this thread if BT was on top of that.     So in my mind he can't really be part of a good outcome no matter which option is picked.

 

I'm kind of on the other side, I feel like 2), your preference, is more likely, and my preference (as well as much of the fanbase) is 3).

 

Flames have historically dragged things out way too long.   Unless under financial stress.   That's in play this year though.   Based on past history I expect we'd trade Gaudreau for a bag of pucks in next season's trade deadline.  Even now, he's pennies on the dollar they've waited so long.  I don't see that changing, they don't act until they get physically smacked in the face.

 

We are both on the same page that the Flames are Not going to do what want them to this year lol

[travel_dude]

36 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

Interesting.   Well, as previously discussed I think whatever option we go with it comes down to the details.  Not what you do but how well you do it.   And we wouldn't have this thread if BT was on top of that.     So in my mind he can't really be part of a good outcome no matter which option is picked.

 

I'm kind of on the other side, I feel like 2), your preference, is more likely, and my preference (as well as much of the fanbase) is 3).

 

Flames have historically dragged things out way too long.   Unless under financial stress.   That's in play this year though.   Based on past history I expect we'd trade Gaudreau for a bag of pucks in next season's trade deadline.  Even now, he's pennies on the dollar they've waited so long.  I don't see that changing, they don't act until they get physically smacked in the face.

 

We are both on the same page that the Flames are Not going to do what want them to this year lol

 

I seriously doubt the fanbase wants #3.  The more vocal ones maybe.  Most of the fans want to improve the team while keeping the highest producing ones.

I think many have the belief we need to get rid of Gio.

He's actually never won a single round, other than the fake round this year.

Most people noticed the struggles last and this playoffs.

Had we had Norris Gio last playoffs, we might have beaten COL.

Anything other than the Gio we saw this playoffs would have meant a 2nd round.

 

I'm not going to say Backlund and Gio are the reasons we lost.

But I will say they had a lot to do with not winning.

In other words, had they been better at what they normally do well, we wouldn;t be talking about blowing it up this week.

 

I know neither Gio nor Backlund is going to get yu that #1D.

That the biggest need we have.

A proficient top 6 C would also help.

Losing Backlund means we have to use Bennett or Lindholm in that spot.

Doesn;t really improve us, so we need better.

[jjgallow]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

I seriously doubt the fanbase wants #3.  The more vocal ones maybe.  Most of the fans want to improve the team while keeping the highest producing ones.

 

People I talk to want it more than I do.  "trade em all".   But hey, possible I surround myself with a certain crowd lol.  I'm not saying that the current fanbase is a great measure of good decisions or much of a testament to the wonders of democracy.    But I think they're pissed.  Especially when there's nothing else to do right now.

 

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

I'm not going to say Backlund and Gio are the reasons we lost.

 

We can't be blaming 36 year olds for our playoff performance, unless it's a 36 year old GM.

 

 Seriously who these days makes legitimate playoff runs with 31 year old forwards who are never better than 2nd line at best, or a 36 year old smallish defenceman?

 

Nobody does this lol.    6 years ago I was begging people on here trade Gio (he was old then), people just couldn't grasp (sorry not trying to be an Hash Rate).   The fact that Gio is even part of the playoff conversation is why we lost, and that's on Treliving.    

 

The fact that Treliving gave up an entire first line of promising defencemen is why we lost.   And yeah, Hamilton's not perfect.   But compared to Hanifin he's practically a shutdown specialist.

 

We just can't...seriously be upset that our 36 year old D didn't carry us, it's not fair to the fans, it's Definitely not fair to Gio.   We should be Extremely proud of Gio for still being in the league and being somewhat relevant in the regular season.  That's a great story.   To pin Anything playoff related on him does nothing but harm and injustice.

 

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

I know neither Gio nor Backlund is going to get yu that #1D.

That the biggest need we have.

 

Because of what Treliving did with the the young first line of D we already had.

 

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

A proficient top 6 C would also help.

Losing Backlund means we have to use Bennett or Lindholm in that spot.

Doesn;t really improve us, so we need better.

 

I'm a big Backlund fan but again more for nostalgia.  For his role, he's doing incredibly well for 31 years of age.  It would absolutely be an improvement if either of those guys took his spot.  But, yeah it's still not enough.   Realistically I think we need to build up the D and G right now.   Would love to get Askarov, or one of the top Ds this year if they drop.   But, as you know.... We're then talking about the 2025 playoffs.

 

which there's no getting around.  I'm ok with that.   But what I'm not ok with is screwing that up too and having to wait to 2030 playoffs.

[travel_dude]

Well, there is more than one way to skin a cat.  Poor cat for putting up with numerous methods.

We have sufficient talent that could be turned into a contender team.

We do not consistenly play to that talent level.

Not more than 30% of the games and very few (if any) of the playoff games.

 

So while the team is "broken", they are no far from being fixed.

Good coaching would help.

While I support Ward as a good guy to work with, the overall performance under his watch is less good.

Questionable decision making at best.

He gets the team to buy in, but then goes out and tells them to start doing X.

 

While I suggest that moving on from Gio and Backlund, as I said they are not the reason we lost.

But keeping them when they have shown to be less than tops in their category.

If Gio is only capable of providing secondary defensive play and almost zero scoring, then stop playing him 24 f'in minutes.

If the top line can carry the team in scoring most nights, why would you expect them to do that, shut down top lines, start in the D-zone more and perform on the PP.

Backlund was as quiet as the top line, yet he was being trotted out there for O-zone starts.

 

In my mind, we need a D-man, a top 6 C, and a consistent backup/starter.

Whether they ruined Rittich by early play (too often) or he can play more than 30 games at a top level, who knows.

They botched it by not using him at all in the playin round or last playoffs.

Ideal to have a franchise goalie, but that's pretty rare.

Most teams luck into one, then have 5 great years and that's about it.

Needing a top 20 prospect C or W is a much greater need for this team, IMHO.

We should know a lot more about Wolfie by this time next year.

That should mean he's a pro by 2021/22 which is about right.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

Well, there is more than one way to skin a cat.  Poor cat for putting up with numerous methods.

We have sufficient talent that could be turned into a contender team.

We do not consistenly play to that talent level.

Not more than 30% of the games and very few (if any) of the playoff games.

 

So while the team is "broken", they are no far from being fixed.

Good coaching would help.

While I support Ward as a good guy to work with, the overall performance under his watch is less good.

Questionable decision making at best.

He gets the team to buy in, but then goes out and tells them to start doing X.

 

While I suggest that moving on from Gio and Backlund, as I said they are not the reason we lost.

But keeping them when they have shown to be less than tops in their category.

If Gio is only capable of providing secondary defensive play and almost zero scoring, then stop playing him 24 f'in minutes.

If the top line can carry the team in scoring most nights, why would you expect them to do that, shut down top lines, start in the D-zone more and perform on the PP.

Backlund was as quiet as the top line, yet he was being trotted out there for O-zone starts.

 

In my mind, we need a D-man, a top 6 C, and a consistent backup/starter.

Whether they ruined Rittich by early play (too often) or he can play more than 30 games at a top level, who knows.

They botched it by not using him at all in the playin round or last playoffs.

Ideal to have a franchise goalie, but that's pretty rare.

Most teams luck into one, then have 5 great years and that's about it.

Needing a top 20 prospect C or W is a much greater need for this team, IMHO.

We should know a lot more about Wolfie by this time next year.

That should mean he's a pro by 2021/22 which is about right.

Again easier said than done as both are 2 of the few on roster with full NTC and coincidentally are the 2 longest serving Flames on the roster.  Between the NTC, the length of Backs contract and the age and cost of Gios  the odds are they'll be one of the last players teams come asking about.

[robrob74]

I am kind of in the Tampa section these days. Sure they have hiccups but they drafted high for awhile then built through the draft and traded smartly, developed their players. 
 

studs all around! And they got lucky deep in the draft. Sure they’ve tripped a few times but when they trip, they trip big. Last year was a collapse but my bet is the president trophy winners won’t trip every year. They’re generally perennial contenders. 
 

Bennett didn’t turn out so that’s a big one. But we’d still need a top stud Dman. 

[jjgallow]

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Again easier said than done as both are 2 of the few on roster with full NTC and coincidentally are the 2 longest serving Flames on the roster.  Between the NTC, the length of Backs contract and the age and cost of Gios  the odds are they'll be one of the last players teams come asking about.

 

With Gio, I think they could convince him to go to TO, if the money worked.

They need his leadership, and he would be a good fit there.

Aside from that, if we keep Gio then he need to take a lesser role on the team.

Just because he's the captain does not require him to play 24 minutes or PP time.

And the coach has to be firm about what that role is.

 

Backlund would be difficult to move, but it depends on the where.

Certain teams might appeal to him.

Maybe you just need to use him differently.