Goaltending

[CheersMan]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Does anyone think the timeline on dealing a goalie is as early as this off-season/at the draft?

I know Wolf's age, but there is really nothing left for him in the A. How long can he stay in the A before it starts going in the wrong direction by not giving him bigger challenges. He's done everything with no bumps in the road so I'm of the opinion that it's time next season.

I think Detroit, Buffalo, Minnesota and the Cali teams would be interested and have the assets.

I'm not saying which goalie, just asking if it's time to give this heavy consideration for more picks/grade A prospect(s)?

Deal from strength while it exists.

 

I think this off season is a year too soon but maybe worth exploring to see if there are takers. The year after would be the year to do it imo. However, I’m not parting ways with Vladar or Wolf. The question is how do you move Markstom with either 2 or 3 x $6 remaining with a NMC? A buyout after next season would be $9.7M over 4 yrs which is not very appealing.

[Thebrewcrew]

1yr of Monahan at 6.3 cost the Flames a 1st round pick.

 

Markstrom will have 6x3 remaining. There will be no market for a goalie coming off a season in the .890's. With three years of term, the cost to move him would be substantial. He also has an NMC, so you can't just ship him to ARI or CHI.

 

If the Flames wanted to part ways, it would have to be via buyout. I really doubt they'd do it though.

[CheersMan]

4 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

1yr of Monahan at 6.3 cost the Flames a 1st round pick.

 

Markstrom will have 6x3 remaining. There will be no market for a goalie coming off a season in the .890's. With three years of term, the cost to move him would be substantial. He also has an NMC, so you can't just ship him to ARI or CHI.

 

If the Flames wanted to part ways, it would have to be via buyout. I really doubt they'd do it though.

 

I don’t see the comparison between Monahan and Markstrom. One was broken, the other is a proven #1 goaltender that is presently struggling with consistency and plenty of runway to sort things out. Markstrom will have value at seasons end with 3 x $6 remaining, but again there’s the NMC. If Flames forced this then it would probably affect the other Swede’s negatively giving us little chance to re-sign Lindholm. I’m not saying trade Markstrom, because I don’t think we need to, I’m saying if I was BT, I may put a discrete long line out in the offseason to see if there are any bites. 

[Thebrewcrew]

5 hours ago, CheersMan said:

 

I don’t see the comparison between Monahan and Markstrom. One was broken, the other is a proven #1 goaltender that is presently struggling with consistency and plenty of runway to sort things out. Markstrom will have value at seasons end with 3 x $6 remaining, but again there’s the NMC. If Flames forced this then it would probably affect the other Swede’s negatively giving us little chance to re-sign Lindholm. I’m not saying trade Markstrom, because I don’t think we need to, I’m saying if I was BT, I may put a discrete long line out in the offseason to see if there are any bites. 

If the Flames wanted to move Markstrom it would be because they believe Wolf/Vladar is a better option. That would most likely be a result of Markstrom playing poorly. The Flames would be selling low.

 

If Markstrom figures it out, they won't consider moving him.

[cross16]

I personally would love to move Markstrom. not that I don't like him, I've just never considered him a top end goalie (he's more in the 10-15 range than the top 10) and I think you can get that level of play from Wolf/Vladar. Not to mention wouldn't exactly be a bad idea to get out from that deal while you can. I actually think it's pretty likely Markstrom starts playing better, or bounces back next year, I just think the Flames can get good goaltending without him. 

 

But I also don't see it happening. NMC a huge factor, I don't see Sutter being ok rolling the dice in net, and I don't see big interest around the league. I think there would be teams interested in Markstorm, teams are ALWAYS looking for goaltending, but I don't see a lot of good situations out there where it could tempt to him to waive his NMC. I don't think the Flames would have to add a sweetener but I do think they'd likely have to take a contract back. 

 

Just doesn't feel like a likely scenario IMO. 

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I personally would love to move Markstrom. not that I don't like him, I've just never considered him a top end goalie (he's more in the 10-15 range than the top 10) and I think you can get that level of play from Wolf/Vladar. Not to mention wouldn't exactly be a bad idea to get out from that deal while you can. I actually think it's pretty likely Markstrom starts playing better, or bounces back next year, I just think the Flames can get good goaltending without him. 

 

But I also don't see it happening. NMC a huge factor, I don't see Sutter being ok rolling the dice in net, and I don't see big interest around the league. I think there would be teams interested in Markstorm, teams are ALWAYS looking for goaltending, but I don't see a lot of good situations out there where it could tempt to him to waive his NMC. I don't think the Flames would have to add a sweetener but I do think they'd likely have to take a contract back. 

 

Just doesn't feel like a likely scenario IMO. 

 

The best option is that Markstrom starts playing better and there is enough interest out there from a quasi contender.  One that needs a 1A/1B type.  Can't see any right now, but things change.  Trades of expensive goalies with term don't happen often at all.  But a team looking for 2 years of a solid goalie happen now and then.

 

When the deal was signed, it was obvious that one year may be bought out.  Not a great thing to be stuck with, but we did need a starter at the time.  

[taz89]

Send him back to Vancouver for Horvat! Wisht that would happen but it's fun to dream.  Honestly though i see our current tandem becoming a 1A/1B like smith and rittick if he doesn't figure it out soon or maybe i should say if the team doesn't start playing the same way when Marky is in goal like Vladar.

[sak22]

Last 4 games 1 guy has given up 8 goals on 57 shots and is 2-0 and the other has 5 on 59 and is 0-2.  1 got 12 total goals in 2 games the other got 2.  For a change I'd say Markstrom has been playing better but Vladar is getting the results and right now you need what looks better in the standings.

[travel_dude]

25 minutes ago, taz89 said:

Send him back to Vancouver for Horvat! Wisht that would happen but it's fun to dream.  Honestly though i see our current tandem becoming a 1A/1B like smith and rittick if he doesn't figure it out soon or maybe i should say if the team doesn't start playing the same way when Marky is in goal like Vladar.

 

There are some issues with how the Flames play with Markstrom.

Some mixups occur between him and the D.

He likes it a certain way (keep sticks off puck?) and wants to play the puck a certain way behind the net.

Perhaps the team is a little tighter, since Vladar doesn't get burned on breakaways as much.

As well, I have noticed a tendency for Marky to lose the goal line battle.

He's been pushed in or gets bumped and loses position easier.

Some of those should be no goals.

 

Perhaps some of the praise last year and some of the problems this year is not having 2 of the 6 D.

The pairings seem unbalanced now.

Or the team gets bogged down in the systems.

Vladar is better at certain things and Marky is better at others.

[travel_dude]

27 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Last 4 games 1 guy has given up 8 goals on 57 shots and is 2-0 and the other has 5 on 59 and is 0-2.  1 got 12 total goals in 2 games the other got 2.  For a change I'd say Markstrom has been playing better but Vladar is getting the results and right now you need what looks better in the standings.

 

Cherry picked stats often don't show the true picture.

In the last 4 games played:

Markstrom - 97 shots, 12 goals against, 9 1/3 periods of play, incl 1 OT loss (2 losses, 1 OTL and 1 no decision)

Vladar - 97 shots, 9 goals against, 9 2/3 periods of play, incl 1 OT loss (3 wins 1 OTL for the 2/3 periods)

 

Just looking at the pure stats doesn't allow you to draw any conclusions.

When the goals against happen make a big difference.

Down by 2 to NAS and by 3 to COL are tough games to win.

A 3-1 lead by CHI seconds into the 2nd.

Losing a 3-1 lead early in the 3rd.

Giving up goals in the 3rd to two teams.

Those are the easy observations.

The why not so easy to answer.

 

When a goalie has a better SA% and lower GAA, then they are playing better right now.

In the last 4 games, Vladar has been the better of the two.

Don't get me wrong, we need both of these guys having good seasons.

I would tend to start Vladar against the lesser teams and bank the points.

Throw in games where he has played against the competition well (Dallas, EDM, TOR).

Give the tough starts to Markstrom against teams like Seattle, Vegas, Minny, WPG.

We have to  beat those teams with more than just a goalie battle.

 

[CheersMan]

The good goalies stay on their feet, square to the puck and remain in the blue paint between the posts at all times. The good goalies mostly just make the save without the theatrics. Other goalies that wander outside their crease are the same ones that flail around inside their crease, attempting cart wheel saves or 2 pad stacks or other creative ways that make the save look amazing when it doesn't have to be. Vladar has been doing the first part really well this season.

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

I personally would love to move Markstrom. not that I don't like him, I've just never considered him a top end goalie (he's more in the 10-15 range than the top 10) and I think you can get that level of play from Wolf/Vladar. Not to mention wouldn't exactly be a bad idea to get out from that deal while you can. I actually think it's pretty likely Markstrom starts playing better, or bounces back next year, I just think the Flames can get good goaltending without him. 

 

But I also don't see it happening. NMC a huge factor, I don't see Sutter being ok rolling the dice in net, and I don't see big interest around the league. I think there would be teams interested in Markstorm, teams are ALWAYS looking for goaltending, but I don't see a lot of good situations out there where it could tempt to him to waive his NMC. I don't think the Flames would have to add a sweetener but I do think they'd likely have to take a contract back. 

 

Just doesn't feel like a likely scenario IMO. 

the only way he decides to move is if things get so dire here that there's no hope of winning. 

[zima]

Bring Wolf up give him a game or 2 just to show we have his back I don't care if he ever drops the gloves or scores 10 goals a has 15 Hash Rate it is luc job to protect Wolf he he ever gets the chance to come up here 

[conundrumed]

On 1/23/2023 at 12:12 PM, cross16 said:

I personally would love to move Markstrom. not that I don't like him, I've just never considered him a top end goalie (he's more in the 10-15 range than the top 10) and I think you can get that level of play from Wolf/Vladar. Not to mention wouldn't exactly be a bad idea to get out from that deal while you can. I actually think it's pretty likely Markstrom starts playing better, or bounces back next year, I just think the Flames can get good goaltending without him. 

 

But I also don't see it happening. NMC a huge factor, I don't see Sutter being ok rolling the dice in net, and I don't see big interest around the league. I think there would be teams interested in Markstorm, teams are ALWAYS looking for goaltending, but I don't see a lot of good situations out there where it could tempt to him to waive his NMC. I don't think the Flames would have to add a sweetener but I do think they'd likely have to take a contract back. 

 

Just doesn't feel like a likely scenario IMO. 

Toronto's G is sketchy imo. Minny, LA, SJ, St Loo, Buffalo, NJ, Seattle, Detroit. I'd think there's definitely a market. But  the NMC...

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Toronto's G is sketchy imo. Minny, LA, SJ, St Loo, Buffalo, NJ, Seattle, Detroit. I'd think there's definitely a market. But  the NMC...

 

The NMC is also hampered by the Swedish Mafia.  Lindholm and him are tight.

Then again, Jarnkrok (TO) is also tight, Lindholm's cousin.

The three of them are boyhood friends.

 

It would need to be a package deal.

Markstrom + Lindholm for Matthews and Samsonov. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

38 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Toronto's G is sketchy imo. Minny, LA, SJ, St Loo, Buffalo, NJ, Seattle, Detroit. I'd think there's definitely a market. But  the NMC...

Can you imagine how the TO media and fanbase would dogpile on Marky after the first soft goal.

[nevermissashift]

Jacob 'Skid' Markstrom

It seems like his head is elsewhere. I can see him going back to Sweden with his new bride next year. 

Vladar will start next year, and hopefully most of the rest of this season. Try out Wolfe. 

[Thebrewcrew]

The Flames are gonna have to scratch and claw their way to a playoff spot.

 

Every game is critical. Vladar gives the Flames the best chance to win right now. 

 

I think it's time to use him like the #1 until performance dictates otherwise.

[cross16]

I think they’ve tried. Vladars pattern right now is 1-2 good games and then throw up a not so good. Dallas, Tampa Bay and Columbus are all games that I would say are not good goaltending performances. We just don’t talk about it because of the run support. 
 

I actually think Markstrom has been fine. The difference is the team falling flat in front of him. 

[travel_dude]

58 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

The Flames are gonna have to scratch and claw their way to a playoff spot.

 

Every game is critical. Vladar gives the Flames the best chance to win right now. 

 

I think it's time to use him like the #1 until performance dictates otherwise.

 

Vladar plays well against tough teams.

Markstrom has played well (wins) against most of the Pacific teams, not so much against the Central.

Coming out of the break, the decisions need to be based on record against those team.

Two weeks of Eastern teams.

 

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think they’ve tried. Vladars pattern right now is 1-2 good games and then throw up a not so good. Dallas, Tampa Bay and Columbus are all games that I would say are not good goaltending performances. We just don’t talk about it because of the run support. 
 

I actually think Markstrom has been fine. The difference is the team falling flat in front of him. 

 

His performance is fine, just not the results.  When you have a guy that has 10-0-3 record in his last 13, there is something to be said about running with the hot hand.  The margin between Marky getting a win and a loss is so thin.  The team not scoring when he's in isn't helping, but there has to be something about when he lets one in.  Deflates team or something.  Don't really know.  All we do know is the team manages to get and hold leads with Vladar in nets.  The first CHI game had the goalie switch with enough saves to give them a chance.  The 2nd game was out of reach.  

[jjgallow]

59 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think they’ve tried. Vladars pattern right now is 1-2 good games and then throw up a not so good. Dallas, Tampa Bay and Columbus are all games that I would say are not good goaltending performances. We just don’t talk about it because of the run support. 
 

I actually think Markstrom has been fine. The difference is the team falling flat in front of him. 

 

Quick math on that makes you first in division.

 

Goalies don't typically have 5 great games in a row, on a regular basis.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Quick math on that makes you first in division.

 

Goalies don't typically have 5 great games in a row, on a regular basis.

that assumes the team in front of them also plays well also. 
 

I don’t think Vladar is out playing Markstrom he’s just getting better results. Their stats are almost identical over the last 20 games. 
 

flames don’t have a number 1 right now is the primary point.

[jjgallow]

43 minutes ago, cross16 said:

that assumes the team in front of them also plays well also. 
 

I don’t think Vladar is out playing Markstrom he’s just getting better results. Their stats are almost identical over the last 20 games. 
 

flames don’t have a number 1 right now is the primary point.

 

Agreed, we do not have a number 1.

 

Nor have we for  most of the last 10 years although Markstrom was very hot last year.

 

Results are results, Flames would be best to respect them and have leashes of equal lengths for both goalies right now.

 

But that may have already happened,  or is about to.   Next we find out if Vladar can sustain or not.

 

Anytime would be a good time right now for Wolf.

 

[bombcomputers]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

I think they’ve tried. Vladars pattern right now is 1-2 good games and then throw up a not so good. Dallas, Tampa Bay and Columbus are all games that I would say are not good goaltending performances. We just don’t talk about it because of the run support. 
 

I actually think Markstrom has been fine. The difference is the team falling flat in front of him. 

Why isn't the team falling apart in front of Darth. How about letting a series of beachballs in. That weighs heavy on a team. It's not about being respectful; be honest, it is what it is. No prob. 

[conundrumed]

13 hours ago, bombcomputers said:

Why isn't the team falling apart in front of Darth. How about letting a series of beachballs in. That weighs heavy on a team. It's not about being respectful; be honest, it is what it is. No prob. 

Well that would mean that it's an emotionally fragile team that can't handle adversity. Not a good look, at all, for a team with playoff aspirations.

Can we stop pretending that it's because Markstrom's no good and giving the player's that are responsible for scoring and defending decently free passes.

Blaming G is, and has always been, waaay too easy of an out.

Queue the "yeah but's", which amounts to 20 free passes...

I don't get the Markstrom hate. Watch the team in front of him if outrage is your goal.