Goaltending

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Better to trade Markstrom and run with Wolf/Vladar.  Save $5-mil to upgrade a RW or something 

 

Blasphemy.  

 

Obviously the way to handle  this is to sign another Markstrom of at least 35 years of age to a $7m contract, and push Vlad into the AHL.  That way Vlad and Wolf can develop properly together, plus it should really help things in the ECHL.

 

If it does come down to a trade, obviously you trade your prospect and sign another vet to the most bloated contract possible.   anything else would just be risky.

 

These young guys just aren't scoring enough.

[sak22]

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Better to trade Markstrom and run with Wolf/Vladar.  Save $5-mil to upgrade a RW or something 

At this point I think trading Markstrom could need either salary retention or you are likely looking at a very minimal return.  You are really looking at a handful of teams that could make that move and few teams with a no move and that doesn't look too good.

[CheersMan]

Wolf is firmly the #3 goalie in our org ATM, he will not get an opportunity to play for the Flames this season unless injury occurs above his level or we are firmly out of the playoff race. There are only 32 #1 goalies in the NHL and he is not one of those. There are only 32 back-up goalies in the NHL and he is not one of those, at least not in this org….yet. Wolf is under contract for another 1.5 years, he will have to continue to play well where he is and wait his turn should it transpire. Rushing Wolf up to the Flames this season by displacing either of the 2 goalies we presently have is nonsense unless we are playing meaningless last 5 games. People need to stop crying Wolf.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Blasphemy.  

 

Obviously the way to handle  this is to sign another Markstrom of at least 35 years of age to a $7m contract, and push Vlad into the AHL.  That way Vlad and Wolf can develop properly together, plus it should really help things in the ECHL.

 

If it does come down to a trade, obviously you trade your prospect and sign another vet to the most bloated contract possible.   anything else would just be risky.

 

These young guys just aren't scoring enough.

 

Back to reality.

Markstrom is one year removed from a Vezna year.

32 is not old for a NHL goalie.

Signed for another 3 years after this one.

You don't trade a starter just because you have cap issues.

Most teams have injury issues with their goalies, so the chances are there to see the AHL goalie.

 

 

[jjgallow]

37 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Back to reality.

Markstrom is one year removed from a Vezna year.

32 is not old for a NHL goalie.

Signed for another 3 years after this one.

You don't trade a starter just because you have cap issues.

Most teams have injury issues with their goalies, so the chances are there to see the AHL goalie.

 

 

 

Reality:
https://thehockeynews.com/news/top-5-candidates-for-the-2022-23-vezina-trophy

 

Markstrom was never a candidate for the Vezina, last year or this year.   You simply don't get there being 4th overall in save percentage.  It doesn't work in the 100-meter dash, and it doesn't work with goaltending.   

 

Even if Markstrom was 1st overall save percentage, which he was leaps and bounds from really, nobody who completely drops the ball the way he did in the playoffs has, or ever will, win the Vezina.

 

To call last year a Vezina year for him is a totally unnecessary insult not only to Shesterkin but all of his actual competition that earned the right to be his competition.

 

So I'm back to not making friends.  This is why reality is no fun.

 

On 32:   You can still be effective at 32 as a goalie, yes.   But the school of thought that goalies reach their prime in their 30s is imho highly flawed and based on exceptional examples.   Imho it is more a result of goalies sometimes not being given a chance for 10+ years, and the Flames definitely do showcase this.

 

On trading the starter:   I get why they won't trade Markstrom, but the reality is that it makes a lot of sense on many levels.   We know the Flames will keep him until he has no value, and possibly even pull a Monahan with him.    But it isn't the Only way to do things.

[zima]

11 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Better to trade Markstrom and run with Wolf/Vladar.  Save $5-mil to upgrade a RW or something 

The way Marks has been playing I would have to agree when you get 6 mill you should be stopping the basket balls No?

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

43 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Reality:
https://thehockeynews.com/news/top-5-candidates-for-the-2022-23-vezina-trophy

 

Markstrom was never a candidate for the Vezina, last year or this year.   You simply don't get there being 4th overall in save percentage.  It doesn't work in the 100-meter dash, and it doesn't work with goaltending.   

 

Even if Markstrom was 1st overall save percentage, which he was leaps and bounds from really, nobody who completely drops the ball the way he did in the playoffs has, or ever will, win the Vezina.

 

To call last year a Vezina year for him is a totally unnecessary insult not only to Shesterkin but all of his actual competition that earned the right to be his competition.

 

So I'm back to not making friends.  This is why reality is no fun.

 

On 32:   You can still be effective at 32 as a goalie, yes.   But the school of thought that goalies reach their prime in their 30s is imho highly flawed and based on exceptional examples.   Imho it is more a result of goalies sometimes not being given a chance for 10+ years, and the Flames definitely do showcase this.

 

On trading the starter:   I get why they won't trade Markstrom, but the reality is that it makes a lot of sense on many levels.   We know the Flames will keep him until he has no value, and possibly even pull a Monahan with him.    But it isn't the Only way to do things.

I know youre not the biggest Marky fan but even you know that playoff stats dont figure into award voting, officially it doesnt anyway.

As for playoff performance of vezina winners? Bob, 2013 and 2017.

 

Im not defending Marky but that statement hold no water and you know it.

[jjgallow]

17 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I know youre not the biggest Marky fan but even you know that playoff stats dont figure into award voting, officially it doesnt anyway.

As for playoff performance of vezina winners? Bob, 2013 and 2017.

 

Im not defending Marky but that statement hold no water and you know it.

 ok.

 

Fine.  Bob was bad.

[420since1974]

16 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Better to trade Markstrom and run with Wolf/Vladar.  Save $5-mil to upgrade a RW or something 

I don't completely disagree with you, but Markstrom's NMC makes it highly unlikely.

IMO, Wolf won't see any NHL time this season barring an injury to Markstrom or Vladar.

During the upcoming summer, if a team was to make an attractive offer on Vladar, BT might just bite at it, and Wolf would be next season's backup.

[conundrumed]

NHL

Markstrom: 13-11-5; 2.81gaa; .894sv% (amazingly, no change in gaa or sv%

Vladar: 8-4-4; 2.73gaa; .907sv%

AHL

Wolf: 21-5; 2.12gaa; .930sv% 4SO

ECHL

Daniil Chechelev 16-9-1; 3.20gaa; .905sv%

NCAA

Sergeev: 7-3-1; 2.55gaa; .918sv%

[travel_dude]

48 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

NHL

Markstrom: 13-11-5; 2.81gaa; .894sv% (amazingly, no change in gaa or sv%

Vladar: 8-4-4; 2.73gaa; .907sv%

AHL

Wolf: 21-5; 2.12gaa; .930sv% 4SO

ECHL

Daniil Chechelev 16-9-1; 3.20gaa; .905sv%

NCAA

Sergeev: 7-3-1; 2.55gaa; .918sv%

 

Markstrom with a .534 win % and Vladar with .625

 

Wolf is impressive, it's almost a guaranteed win when he starts.

[jjgallow]

Sergeev making a case.  Definitely 2 years out.   But looking good.

 

Wolf and Sergeev both looking good right now.   just thinking of odds though, I'd like to see twice that many in the organization.   Hoping the Flames draft at least 1 more goalie this year, if not two.  I don't think they will but I really hope.

 

Then if/when Wolf graduates, Sergeev graduates (from US hockey), you've got a meaningful prospect or 2 for the AHL.

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

Sergeev making a case.  Definitely 2 years out.   But looking good.

 

Wolf and Sergeev both looking good right now.   just thinking of odds though, I'd like to see twice that many in the organization.   Hoping the Flames draft at least 1 more goalie this year, if not two.  I don't think they will but I really hope.

 

Then if/when Wolf graduates, Sergeev graduates (from US hockey), you've got a meaningful prospect or 2 for the AHL.

Chechelev is a nice prospect too. Those are good numbers for a 21yo in the E. He leads the league in starts and shots against so that's what we want, he's seeing lots of action. He just came to NA last year so plenty of time to grow.

So that's 3 good prospects.

[cross16]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Chechelev is a nice prospect too. Those are good numbers for a 21yo in the E. He leads the league in starts and shots against so that's what we want, he's seeing lots of action. He just came to NA last year so plenty of time to grow.

So that's 3 good prospects.

 

Tricky with Wolf in the A because they are leaning on him heaviliy too (which I don't have a problem with) but i'd really like to see them mix in some games for Chechelev in the A. Not like Dansk has been any good. 

[conundrumed]

10 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Tricky with Wolf in the A because they are leaning on him heaviliy too (which I don't have a problem with) but i'd really like to see them mix in some games for Chechelev in the A. Not like Dansk has been any good. 

Same. It's difficult to have a lot of goalie prospects with limited options where they can play after jr unless they're sent out on loan/overseas, which isn't ideal.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Same. It's difficult to have a lot of goalie prospects with limited options where they can play after jr unless they're sent out on loan/overseas, which isn't ideal.

 

As it stands, it's going to be difficult to get Wolf into the NHL.

Will have to sooner or later, or it backs us up again.

Vladar is likely a year away from being a 1a/1b type; 2023/24 season that is.

Markstrom's final year will be a problem if his play drops off.

[jjgallow]

On 1/18/2023 at 4:56 AM, conundrumed said:

Same. It's difficult to have a lot of goalie prospects with limited options where they can play after jr unless they're sent out on loan/overseas, which isn't ideal.

 

One could also say it's tricky to have overpaid veterans.

 

Anyway 

 

Some teams have succeeded at having a goalie tandem split the workload in the AHL.  2 Wolfs, if you will.   

 

Works best if they both get callup time

 

[DirtyDeeds]

On 1/6/2023 at 10:15 AM, jjgallow said:

 

Reality:
https://thehockeynews.com/news/top-5-candidates-for-the-2022-23-vezina-trophy

 

Markstrom was never a candidate for the Vezina, last year or this year.   You simply don't get there being 4th overall in save percentage.  It doesn't work in the 100-meter dash, and it doesn't work with goaltending.   

 

Even if Markstrom was 1st overall save percentage, which he was leaps and bounds from really, nobody who completely drops the ball the way he did in the playoffs has, or ever will, win the Vezina.

 

To call last year a Vezina year for him is a totally unnecessary insult not only to Shesterkin but all of his actual competition that earned the right to be his competition.

 

So I'm back to not making friends.  This is why reality is no fun.

 

On 32:   You can still be effective at 32 as a goalie, yes.   But the school of thought that goalies reach their prime in their 30s is imho highly flawed and based on exceptional examples.   Imho it is more a result of goalies sometimes not being given a chance for 10+ years, and the Flames definitely do showcase this.

 

On trading the starter:   I get why they won't trade Markstrom, but the reality is that it makes a lot of sense on many levels.   We know the Flames will keep him until he has no value, and possibly even pull a Monahan with him.    But it isn't the Only way to do things.

You must be getting mixed up a bit with the Jennings Trophy or something.

 

There are only 3 finalists for this trophy not 5.

 

Jacob Markstrom of the Calgary Flames, Juuse Saros of the Nashville Predators, and Igor Shesterkin of the New York Rangers have been voted as the three finalists for the 2021-22 Vezina Trophy

 

Vezina is voted on by GM's. It is for the goaltender “adjudged to be the best at this position.” not the goalie with best stats.

 

Why Markstrom?

The case for Jacob Markstrom: No goaltender recorded more shutouts this season than Markstrom’s nine. In helping the Flames to the Pacific Division title, he helped them to 37 wins in 3,695:50 total minutes played. Markstrom was fifth in even strength save percentage (.926) and goals saved above average (17.90), per Natural Stat Trick. His play helped Calgary finish third in the running for the William Jennings Trophy for fewest goals allowed. He is also the looking to become only the second goalie in franchise history win the award, following Miikka Kiprusoff in 2005-06.

 

I think the 9 shutouts was the main reason he was a finalist.. {just my opinion}

 

 

[jjgallow]

20 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

You must be getting mixed up a bit with the Jennings Trophy or something.

 

There are only 3 finalists for this trophy not 5.

 

Jacob Markstrom of the Calgary Flames, Juuse Saros of the Nashville Predators, and Igor Shesterkin of the New York Rangers have been voted as the three finalists for the 2021-22 Vezina Trophy

 

Vezina is voted on by GM's. It is for the goaltender “adjudged to be the best at this position.” not the goalie with best stats.

 

Why Markstrom?

The case for Jacob Markstrom: No goaltender recorded more shutouts this season than Markstrom’s nine. In helping the Flames to the Pacific Division title, he helped them to 37 wins in 3,695:50 total minutes played. Markstrom was fifth in even strength save percentage (.926) and goals saved above average (17.90), per Natural Stat Trick. His play helped Calgary finish third in the running for the William Jennings Trophy for fewest goals allowed. He is also the looking to become only the second goalie in franchise history win the award, following Miikka Kiprusoff in 2005-06.

 

I think the 9 shutouts was the main reason he was a finalist.. {just my opinion}

 

 

 

You're right, he had a great season and I was a l didn't give him the credit he deserved for it.  

 

It's not so much that I have an issue with Markstrom per se as much as some of the long term strategies of the organization which backfire regularly especially post-season, not necessarily to the fault of individual players/goalies.

[conundrumed]

12 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

One could also say it's tricky to have overpaid veterans.

 

Anyway 

 

Some teams have succeeded at having a goalie tandem split the workload in the AHL.  2 Wolfs, if you will.   

 

Works best if they both get callup time

 

But we don't have any overpaid veterans.

We did try the, "let's not spend much on goaltending" route, it sucked.

Amazing how it's the goalies fault that the rest of the team only musters him a goal or 2 most nights.

That's a lot of free passes to blame one player on a low skill team. Or maybe a better way to put it, a team being coached to play low-skill.

Yet the bulk of the blame lands on the goalie. I'd like to see him traded to Detroit just to spare him this extremely hot mess of a team and beligerent fanbase.

It's gotta be hard to enjoy a simple game when you're edging to be hyper-critical.

 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

But we don't have any overpaid veterans.

We did try the, "let's not spend much on goaltending" route, it sucked.

Amazing how it's the goalies fault that the rest of the team only musters him a goal or 2 most nights.

That's a lot of free passes to blame one player on a low skill team. Or maybe a better way to put it, a team being coached to play low-skill.

Yet the bulk of the blame lands on the goalie. I'd like to see him traded to Detroit just to spare him this extremely hot mess of a team and beligerent fanbase.

It's gotta be hard to enjoy a simple game when you're edging to be hyper-critical.

 

 

You're just baiting me to avoid the idea of two top prospects on one AHL team because it makes too much sense lol.

[conundrumed]

Does anyone think the timeline on dealing a goalie is as early as this off-season/at the draft?

I know Wolf's age, but there is really nothing left for him in the A. How long can he stay in the A before it starts going in the wrong direction by not giving him bigger challenges. He's done everything with no bumps in the road so I'm of the opinion that it's time next season.

I think Detroit, Buffalo, Minnesota and the Cali teams would be interested and have the assets.

I'm not saying which goalie, just asking if it's time to give this heavy consideration for more picks/grade A prospect(s)?

Deal from strength while it exists.

[pikey7883]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Does anyone think the timeline on dealing a goalie is as early as this off-season/at the draft?

I know Wolf's age, but there is really nothing left for him in the A. How long can he stay in the A before it starts going in the wrong direction by not giving him bigger challenges. He's done everything with no bumps in the road so I'm of the opinion that it's time next season.

I think Detroit, Buffalo, Minnesota and the Cali teams would be interested and have the assets.

I'm not saying which goalie, just asking if it's time to give this heavy consideration for more picks/grade A prospect(s)?

Deal from strength while it exists.

I have been wondering this also. How much would Buffalo or Anaheim be willing to give up to add a great net minder in either Vlad or Wolf? Not that they’re the same, but both could be ready to build around a young core. 

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Does anyone think the timeline on dealing a goalie is as early as this off-season/at the draft?

I know Wolf's age, but there is really nothing left for him in the A. How long can he stay in the A before it starts going in the wrong direction by not giving him bigger challenges. He's done everything with no bumps in the road so I'm of the opinion that it's time next season.

I think Detroit, Buffalo, Minnesota and the Cali teams would be interested and have the assets.

I'm not saying which goalie, just asking if it's time to give this heavy consideration for more picks/grade A prospect(s)?

Deal from strength while it exists.

 

Knock on wood, we have been one of the few teams this year that has 2 healthy goalies.

Two years ago, nobody to come in for injury.

I think that Wolf is going to have the same challenges even getting a start in CGY that Vladar has.

More so, in fact.

Vladar has size and is a bit older.

He's the superior goalie right now and getting the bench.

Sutter wouldn't use Wolf until he grows 6 inches and gains 50 ponds.

 

Ok, I admit I am a bit down on Sutter right now, but he's sowing his true colors.

The window for playing a young goalie is reasonably long, but next year is probably the best time.

We need to deal someone before they lose value.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Does anyone think the timeline on dealing a goalie is as early as this off-season/at the draft?

I know Wolf's age, but there is really nothing left for him in the A. How long can he stay in the A before it starts going in the wrong direction by not giving him bigger challenges. He's done everything with no bumps in the road so I'm of the opinion that it's time next season.

I think Detroit, Buffalo, Minnesota and the Cali teams would be interested and have the assets.

I'm not saying which goalie, just asking if it's time to give this heavy consideration for more picks/grade A prospect(s)?

Deal from strength while it exists.

My main issue with that is unlike alot of other teams the Flames have been EXTREMELY fortunate that havent lost anyone significant for long term due to injury (any position). Trade away any of the top 3 goalies then your only position with depth becomes a short coming once again and Murphys law would dictate thats when an injury to one of the Gs would happen. I get that you dont want a potential top player stuck in the minors forever but is the alternate any better? Wolf is young and is probably anxious to prove himself but hes also been in the game long enough to realize sometimes you gotta be patient.

 

Marky wont be going anywhere and Vladar has been very promising so far, but so was Rittich at one time. No one knows how Vlad would handle a bigger workload and Wolf is a total question mark altogether.