Goaltending

[conundrumed]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Yup. I think your to the point where the idea of moving out your pending UFAs is not about what value you receive in trades it's what value do you get by the replacements who can play and get ice time. 

 

I don't really care if all they get is late round picks for Lucic/Lewis. I'd rather see Ruzicka in there full time, or bring up Zary, Duher heck even Klapka or Schwidt. 

I feel like we just aren't the team that we're trying to be. We're not stable enough defensively. We keep the shots down but the chances are typically high danger. Always, always meltdowns. Our goalies are never busy and then cast directly into high danger. Offensively, we always give the other goalie lots of touches and get him into the game. We rarely create traffic. We don't move the puck quickly. The PP is an abomination. Mostly, we are terminal on taking penalties. Errant sticks and dumb penalties constantly. Can't even blame the refs at this point. You KNOW what they're calling and you're STILL doing it.

Just a dumb, grinding team. We have some guys with skills, but it's totally snuffed out to be grinders.

We just aren't the team that we're trying to be. This season is over if we don't try to adjust. Throw the stats out, we are stat-defying. xGF & xGA mean nothing with this team. It's NEVER as rosy as that.

Since beating Seattle, we've collected 6pts in 7 games. That's the only stat that matters. Minny was hot garbage and we pissed away that opportunity. Now they've made some roster adjustments, Gustavsson's playing lights out, and we STILL think there's a chance without trying to adjust anything.

I'm mind-boggled. Are we going to carry on being this arrogant about it?

Call up Wolf, Zary, Duehr. Ditch that 4th line. Change the PP. Do something, even if it's wrong. It's wrong as it is.

*end rant*

 

[taz89]

Why not give Wolf a shot of being the Flames "Jordan Binnington" (we all know what he did when brought up) What could it hurt?

[Heartbreaker]

Just now, taz89 said:

Why not give Wolf a shot of being the Flames "Jordan Binnington" (we all know what he did when brought up) What could it hurt?

 

Well, I mean, it could hurt Dustin Wolf. The NHL seems like a great league to ruin young goaltenders, and while there examples like Jordan Binnington, or Matt Murray, there are plenty of examples of young goalies that get lit up, and never really recover.

 

I totally get the sentiment, and if there's an injury, then you've got to bring him up, but at this point, I'm firmly in the "leave him where he is" camp.

 

Love.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Just a dumb, grinding team. We have some guys with skills, but it's totally snuffed out to be grinders.

We just aren't the team that we're trying to be. This season is over if we don't try to adjust. Throw the stats out, we are stat-defying. xGF & xGA mean nothing with this team. It's NEVER as rosy as that.

Since beating Seattle, we've collected 6pts in 7 games. That's the only stat that matters. Minny was hot garbage and we pissed away that opportunity. Now they've made some roster adjustments, Gustavsson's playing lights out, and we STILL think there's a chance without trying to adjust anything.

I'm mind-boggled. Are we going to carry on being this arrogant about it?

Call up Wolf, Zary, Duehr. Ditch that 4th line. Change the PP. Do something, even if it's wrong. It's wrong as it is.

*end rant*

 

I started here because, to me, it points to the coach.  But there is one thing that bothers me besides that.  It's going down 2 goals and just trying to grind back into the game. Be patient.  So, we get into a situation where we are slowly whittling our way back in and eventually scoring.  Great if you have perfect goaltending the rest of the game.  But we get a small lead or tie it up and then coast.  Tighten up something that is never tight.  

 

You will be glad to know that Duehr was recalled, but I can almost guarantee that it will be Ruzicka coming out, as Ritchie was put on IR.  Address the issue by not fixing the problem.  

 

The PP is worse than it was before.  Instead of bumping down Kadri, they bump down Lindholm and Toffoli.  Kadri has 2 PP points since January 1st and has been on the top line the entire season.  The new look PP is much worse than what it replaced.

[travel_dude]

59 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

We view it differently I see a team that has ample chances to score but don't and defensive lapses or poor goaltending that creates a downward spiral. IMHO it's not the system it's an execution and defensive breakdown issue. Will a new voice and system make a huge difference, I do not think it will. A new coach or voice isn't going to miraculously generate better execution, coverage, and goaltending. We all knew this season's scoring was going to be tough. No one imagined the d breakdowns and poor goaltending would be our downfall. If goaltending and breakdowns were better with current production, we are in a playoff spot and these conversations are not happening. Sutter has his flaws as do we all but this is a ice issue. 

 

Most times there is a coaching change, you get the new coach bump.  

If you call shot volume scoring chances, then you are hoping for a ECHL level goalie.

Slow methodical movement up the ice to protect the possession.

Dump and chase to regain possession, but only send in one guy.

Shoot from any angle and call it a scoring chance if you like.

 

It doesn't even need to be a new coach to change the outcome.

Somethings are not working at all and haven't been for some time.

Stay with it or change?

I see more of the same.

 

The 4th line should sit out after some of the shifts they have played.  

Two tie games with the Rangers with less than a minute left.

Oh no, we have to use them.

 

 

 

 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I feel like we just aren't the team that we're trying to be. We're not stable enough defensively. We keep the shots down but the chances are typically high danger. Always, always meltdowns. Our goalies are never busy and then cast directly into high danger. Offensively, we always give the other goalie lots of touches and get him into the game. We rarely create traffic. We don't move the puck quickly. The PP is an abomination. Mostly, we are terminal on taking penalties. Errant sticks and dumb penalties constantly. Can't even blame the refs at this point. You KNOW what they're calling and you're STILL doing it.

Just a dumb, grinding team. We have some guys with skills, but it's totally snuffed out to be grinders.

We just aren't the team that we're trying to be. This season is over if we don't try to adjust. Throw the stats out, we are stat-defying. xGF & xGA mean nothing with this team. It's NEVER as rosy as that.

Since beating Seattle, we've collected 6pts in 7 games. That's the only stat that matters. Minny was hot garbage and we pissed away that opportunity. Now they've made some roster adjustments, Gustavsson's playing lights out, and we STILL think there's a chance without trying to adjust anything.

I'm mind-boggled. Are we going to carry on being this arrogant about it?

Call up Wolf, Zary, Duehr. Ditch that 4th line. Change the PP. Do something, even if it's wrong. It's wrong as it is.

*end rant*

 

 

I agree but the only thing I would point out is the expected goals stuff actually highlights what its wrong with the team. Another debate for another thread probably but this isn't a case of the analytics trying to paint a pretty picture because they really don't. 

 

And this is why I would move on from Sutter. This is not his fault and I don't even think it's done anything "wrong" he just isn't the right coach for how this team is built and I don't like Sutter hockey so move on and find someone who will play a more entertaining style of game with a more positive message. 

[tmac70]

27 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I agree but the only thing I would point out is the expected goals stuff actually highlights what its wrong with the team. Another debate for another thread probably but this isn't a case of the analytics trying to paint a pretty picture because they really don't. 

 

And this is why I would move on from Sutter. This is not his fault and I don't even think it's done anything "wrong" he just isn't the right coach for how this team is built and I don't like Sutter hockey so move on and find someone who will play a more entertaining style of game with a more positive message. 

Who is this miracle of the gods you're bringing forth?  It's not like this team hasn't had chances to score, it's not as if our goalies can't stop a beach ball. If your changing for the sake of change nothing changes. This season is a Satoshi Nakamoto show because we can't score, but mostly because of missed assignments and poor goaltending. 

[bombcomputers]

Ya. 

1. They have forgotten how to score. The Post Kings. The one goal loss champs. It's hard to expand on all that. I have before but didn't generate much response. 

2.  There is a goaltending problem. Markstrom may be a good goalie but he isn't having success in Calgary. 

Markstrom's frustration is poisoning Vladar's attitude. Vladar had a pissy fit in practice apparently. What the fxxk?

Play Vladar now. If he doesn't perform bring in Wolf or... 

You play well you get to play, just like everybody else. 

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Who is this miracle of the gods you're bringing forth?  It's not like this team hasn't had chances to score, it's not as if our goalies can't stop a beach ball. If your changing for the sake of change nothing changes. This season is a Satoshi Nakamoto show because we can't score, but mostly because of missed assignments and poor goaltending. 

 

I'm not sure exactly what it is about Sutter Hockey that you love.  Grinding, slow moving, dump and chase, shoot from every angle.  Zero speed coming out of the zone.  We score a lot of goals when we hit the O-zone with speed.  Dube, Mangiapane, Kadri rushes.  Mangiapane forced a penalty but still managed to score.  The Kadri goal was superb passing on a 3 on 2 rush.  Dube's was a rush.  Pelletier's was a breakaway.  Sutter is score from the blue paint because we don't have skill.

 

The solution is to cut bait and do an exhaustive search.  Not a Wardo is the A/coach so he gets an extension.  Not the want to fire Wardo so you can only do it by hiring Sutter.  An actual search.  May have to wait till the summer to get a new guy, but you don't have to wait that long to make the decision.  

 

[tmac70]

21 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm not sure exactly what it is about Sutter Hockey that you love.  Grinding, slow moving, dump and chase, shoot from every angle.  Zero speed coming out of the zone.  We score a lot of goals when we hit the O-zone with speed.  Dube, Mangiapane, Kadri rushes.  Mangiapane forced a penalty but still managed to score.  The Kadri goal was superb passing on a 3 on 2 rush.  Dube's was a rush.  Pelletier's was a breakaway.  Sutter is score from the blue paint because we don't have skill.

 

The solution is to cut bait and do an exhaustive search.  Not a Wardo is the A/coach so he gets an extension.  Not the want to fire Wardo so you can only do it by hiring Sutter.  An actual search.  May have to wait till the summer to get a new guy, but you don't have to wait that long to make the decision.  

 

So what about last season did you not like? The system hasn't changed 3 players have that's it. Everyone wants this up beat style of hockey we haven't got those types of players. Play with speed and skill we don't have those either or scoring wouldn't be an issue. Hey, I can agree that Sutter may be stubborn in some ways but I have seen no signs of this as a system or coaching issue.  it is poor coverage or breakdown in coverage and BUSH LEAGUE  goaltending. This frantic gut reaction of selling the clubs cause you made a bogey gets old. Firing the coach isn't going to instantly change the Satoshi Nakamoto you have on the ice. 

 

If your wish is to clean house then remove them all, starting from Tre to the scouts and coaches. Then cleanse the room.  If MTl wants Hubie trade him for Dach and 1st or something along those lines. Trade Hanfin, Lindholm, Tanev, Weegar, Anderson Mags get rid of the all, and start fresh. Tear it down and build it back again. Maybe this is just a destination for players wising to get over paid and collect a good wage, never wanting to win a cup. 

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

So what about last season did you not like? The system hasn't changed 3 players have that's it. Everyone wants this up beat style of hockey we haven't got those types of players. Play with speed and skill we don't have those either or scoring wouldn't be an issue. Hey, I can agree that Sutter may be stubborn in some ways but I have seen no signs of this as a system or coaching issue.  it is poor coverage or breakdown in coverage and BUSH LEAGUE  goaltending. This frantic gut reaction of selling the clubs cause you made a bogey gets old. Firing the coach isn't going to instantly change the Satoshi Nakamoto you have on the ice. 

 

If your wish is to clean house then remove them all, starting from Tre to the scouts and coaches. Then cleanse the room.  If MTl wants Hubie trade him for Dach and 1st or something along those lines. Trade Hanfin, Lindholm, Tanev, Weegar, Anderson Mags get rid of the all, and start fresh. Tear it down and build it back again. Maybe this is just a destination for players wising to get over paid and collect a good wage, never wanting to win a cup. 

 

Most teams look at the problems a team is having and pick a lane.

The GM, the coach or the players being the problem.

You can fire the GM today, but it changes nothing on the ice.

You can fire the coach, and the on ice team could be 100% better or the same.

You can trade away (somehow) all the players with term, but you will never get anyone to sign again.

And it's almost impossible to do that during the season, at least this close to TDL.

No teams other than lotto teams have cap.

They don't want a 29 year old Huberdeau.

 

What I can suggest is that we are a team (currently) that not all players can fit.

Jarnkrok, Rooney, Milano, Bennett all had or are having success elsewhere but couldn't do squat here.

Huberdeau and Kadri look stuck in mud.

 

Watching other teams play, I don't see boatload more talent, I see game play that works.

This excuse for hockey doesn't.  

 

[jjgallow]

37 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Most teams look at the problems a team is having and pick a lane.

The GM, the coach or the players being the problem.

You can fire the GM today, but it changes nothing on the ice.

You can fire the coach, and the on ice team could be 100% better or the same.

You can trade away (somehow) all the players with term, but you will never get anyone to sign again.

And it's almost impossible to do that during the season, at least this close to TDL.

No teams other than lotto teams have cap.

They don't want a 29 year old Huberdeau.

 

What I can suggest is that we are a team (currently) that not all players can fit.

Jarnkrok, Rooney, Milano, Bennett all had or are having success elsewhere but couldn't do squat here.

Huberdeau and Kadri look stuck in mud.

 

Watching other teams play, I don't see boatload more talent, I see game play that works.

This excuse for hockey doesn't.  

 

 

While I don't agree with all your points I'm really loving the negativity lol.

 

when issues arise, goaltending and coaching threads are always the hottest because they are the two easiest to blame.     a third might be the "let's trade for a #1 center" standby lol.

 

I don't see us on paper the same way you do, imho we could trade Sutter and find out really quick how bad we really are.  Even Huberdeau is just doing what he's always done in but 3 hot seasons of his NHL career.   Even in his hottest season (last year, contract year) he was just 4th on his team in goal scoring (Sam Bennett a close #5).    And he's the "underperforming talent".   

 

I'm less worried about the issues on ice right now and more worried about how much of our future has been sold off.   Some saving grace that the Heat are doing well, by in large part due to Dustin Wolf (steering back to topic).    If Wolf translates to the NHL, I feel better.  A little better.

 

If he doesn't, man.  Man oh man it could be a rough few years.

 

 

[tmac70]

50 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Most teams look at the problems a team is having and pick a lane.

The GM, the coach or the players being the problem.

You can fire the GM today, but it changes nothing on the ice.

You can fire the coach, and the on ice team could be 100% better or the same.

You can trade away (somehow) all the players with term, but you will never get anyone to sign again.

And it's almost impossible to do that during the season, at least this close to TDL.

No teams other than lotto teams have cap.

They don't want a 29 year old Huberdeau.

 

What I can suggest is that we are a team (currently) that not all players can fit.

Jarnkrok, Rooney, Milano, Bennett all had or are having success elsewhere but couldn't do squat here.

Huberdeau and Kadri look stuck in mud.

 

Watching other teams play, I don't see boatload more talent, I see game play that works.

This excuse for hockey doesn't.  

 

So you have a 50% chance that it improves and 50% chance it doesn't. As I said we see it differently. I see an execution player issue you see it as a coaching issue. Changing the air freshener in your car doesn't make it run better

[tmac70]

7 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

While I don't agree with all your points I'm really loving the negativity lol.

 

when issues arise, goaltending and coaching threads are always the hottest because they are the two easiest to blame.     a third might be the "let's trade for a #1 center" standby lol.

 

I don't see us on paper the same way you do, imho we could trade Sutter and find out really quick how bad we really are.  Even Huberdeau is just doing what he's always done in but 3 hot seasons of his NHL career.   Even in his hottest season (last year, contract year) he was just 4th on his team in goal scoring (Sam Bennett a close #5).    And he's the "underperforming talent".   

 

I'm less worried about the issues on ice right now and more worried about how much of our future has been sold off.   Some saving grace that the Heat are doing well, by in large part due to Dustin Wolf (steering back to topic).    If Wolf translates to the NHL, I feel better.  A little better.

 

If he doesn't, man.  Man oh man it could be a rough few years.

 

 

Wolf will be fine at worst he could be a solid back up but he will need a better defensive coverage in front of him to be effective in the NHL

[jjgallow]

1 minute ago, tmac70 said:

Wolf will be fine at worst he could be a solid back up but he will need a better defensive coverage in front of him to be effective in the NHL

 

I tried bumping the defense thread but it just created mass unrest.  Now I'm afraid of it.

 

Blaming defense is apparently not appropriate, because it's the whole team.

 

But can't blame the GM, who put the team together.

 

Not the GM, not the defense, is what I'm getting.    That leaves coach, goalie and "team" lol.

 

I blame our politicians for coining ridiculous phrases like the Quebec Flames.

[bombcomputers]

13 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I tried bumping the defense thread but it just created mass unrest.  Now I'm afraid of it.

 

Blaming defense is apparently not appropriate, because it's the whole team.

 

But can't blame the GM, who put the team together.

 

Not the GM, not the defense, is what I'm getting.    That leaves coach, goalie and "team" lol.

 

I blame our politicians for coining ridiculous phrases 

Does shooting practice still sound stupid? Does practicing a move on the goalie sound stupid? 

Hopefully the players aren't hanging each other out to dry like the fans are knocking the team off at the knees? This looks like a case of the bad news bears. Turn it around gentlemen. It's as simple as that. No other choice. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

15 hours ago, tmac70 said:

So you have a 50% chance that it improves and 50% chance it doesn't. As I said we see it differently. I see an execution player issue you see it as a coaching issue. Changing the air freshener in your car doesn't make it run better

I see where TD is coming from as this seems to be exactly what the Jets went through last year. There was no identity, no cohesion, and alot of games where it seemed no one cared. I acknowledge that the coaching situation was different as the coach wasnt a pedigreed veteran but everything else looks quite similar. The only real change the Jets made in the offseason was coaching, at that point the team was in absolute disarray that no one knew if a new coach would make a difference. Whether its the coaching style, off ice issues being addressed or whatever, the results are showing.

For the Flames a coaching change may not be the answer, but neither may be a major transaction, or complete sell off. All we know for sure is that the status quo isnt working.

[conundrumed]

8 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I see where TD is coming from as this seems to be exactly what the Jets went through last year. There was no identity, no cohesion, and alot of games where it seemed no one cared. I acknowledge that the coaching situation was different as the coach wasnt a pedigreed veteran but everything else looks quite similar. The only real change the Jets made in the offseason was coaching, at that point the team was in absolute disarray that no one knew if a new coach would make a difference. Whether its the coaching style, off ice issues being addressed or whatever, the results are showing.

For the Flames a coaching change may not be the answer, but neither may be a major transaction, or complete sell off. All we know for sure is that the status quo isnt working.

Just to add, take it however, the Flames have had 5 coaches during Maurice's Jets tenure.

[zima]

It's ashamed we haven't acknowledged the fact that this team for the most part has put 40 shots or better at the ops net and yet we lose? isn't it time to bring up some help in net the way things are going what do we have to lose a couple more points if it fails? If were working towards an early first round pick then yes keep playing Marky but if we want to win then it's time to bring up the Wolf make sure it is on a full moon

 

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Just to add, take it however, the Flames have had 5 coaches during Maurice's Jets tenure.

 

And I would say the last smart coaching change we made was hiring Bob Hartley.

At the time, he was the right coach for a year.

The choices from then onward have seemed rushed.

Gully - was a poor choice, never really got the sense he had a clue.

BP - very rushed, on the market for a day.

Wardo - interim and hired since we just wanted stability?

Sutter - suggested that he was the only option for BT if BT wanted to replace Wardo.

 

I don't think a coach change is always the right thing to do.  Hartley going was the right choice, but the replacements have not been thought out.  Gully may have been an okay A/coach, but he was never ready to be the head coach.  Peters was the opposite of Gully style,  Hard arse that beat on the team to get results.  No great results in CAR, so not sure why it was a good choice at the time.  Seemed rushed.  Wardo should not have just got the job without an exhaustive search.  Going to Sutter had it's merits.  I don't know that the summer suggested a change was due?  Tkachuk and Gaudreau leaving may have been a clue to the team's feeling about the coach or their performance under him.  The collapse against EDM was both players and coaching.    

[bombcomputers]

It's dealing with what you have that gets real results. 

[travel_dude]

23 hours ago, tmac70 said:

We view it differently I see a team that has ample chances to score but don't and defensive lapses or poor goaltending that creates a downward spiral. IMHO it's not the system it's an execution and defensive breakdown issue. Will a new voice and system make a huge difference, I do not think it will. A new coach or voice isn't going to miraculously generate better execution, coverage, and goaltending. We all knew this season's scoring was going to be tough. No one imagined the d breakdowns and poor goaltending would be our downfall. If goaltending and breakdowns were better with current production, we are in a playoff spot and these conversations are not happening. Sutter has his flaws as do we all but this is a ice issue. 

 

Just to point out, we do see it differently.  I appreciate your passion about this.  I view last year's results as an outlier for the way the game was played.  We had comebacks, closing out games when leading after 2, awesome goaltending, career years from players in their final contract year.  Tkachuk and Gaudreau were amazing at creating something out of nothing, when they gained the O-zone.  We had 3 skating puck moving D-men and 3 stay at homes ones.  Lucic still had enough in the tank to do more than be on for a goal against.  The coaching got credit for it, but was as much individual stars as anything.  

 

You can argue that we have less talent, so any shortfalls are the result of that.  Or you can choose to look at the style being played and come to the conclusion that it was not sustainable, even with those same players.  We struggle and have struggled playing some teams that move the puck quickly.  We seem to only look for the perfect shot on the PP, so the shot volume is deceiving.

 

I don't know what the solution is.  Scoring greasy goals is one thing, but if that's the only type the coach is calling for then we won't be scoring much.  With goaltending being more exposed and the D making bad decisions (which they always have done) we need more than greasy goals.  EDM barely scores a single 5v5 goal per game.  That game isn't sustainable, but they get enough to win some nights.  

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, zima said:

It's ashamed we haven't acknowledged the fact that this team for the most part has put 40 shots or better at the ops net and yet we lose? isn't it time to bring up some help in net the way things are going what do we have to lose a couple more points if it fails? If were working towards an early first round pick then yes keep playing Marky but if we want to win then it's time to bring up the Wolf make sure it is on a full moon

 

The problem is 35 of the 40 shots are nothingburgers. And we have zero traffic in front of opposing goalies.

I'm even nervous about ARI tonight, which is kinda sad. I have very little confidence in the product. And it's more than just goal.

[travel_dude]

Thought this might show some of the struggles we have.  The conclusion is obvious, but the playoff teams are going to be a much bigger fight when the playoffs are looming.  Think of the PREDS game last year just before the end of the season.  

 

Derek Wills

@Fan960Wills

 

#Flames are 15-9-5 (.604) vs. teams currently in a playoff spot and 11-11-6 (.500) vs. teams currently out of a playoff position. 12 of final 25 games are against non-playoff teams. Flames have to pick up two points in the majority of those games, starting tonight vs. #Yotes.

[zima]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Thought this might show some of the struggles we have.  The conclusion is obvious, but the playoff teams are going to be a much bigger fight when the playoffs are looming.  Think of the PREDS game last year just before the end of the season.  

 

Derek Wills

@Fan960Wills

 

#Flames are 15-9-5 (.604) vs. teams currently in a playoff spot and 11-11-6 (.500) vs. teams currently out of a playoff position. 12 of final 25 games are against non-playoff teams. Flames have to pick up two points in the majority of those games, starting tonight vs. #Yotes.

If they don't bring up Wolf might as well start praying for first over all pick. There is no way Marky is going top stop a beach ball and Vlad can't play every game. I would trade Matt and who ever else to get another pick this yr depending on the over all choice we give Maybe Wolf Matt and our first for first over all? Just so you know I know I'm a dreamer.