Goaltending

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

To be fair, it's only very slightly worse than Wolf's record, their stats are not far off...in the NHL.   And he's 1.5 years younger than Wolf.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I wouldn't trade Wolf for Wallstedt.  Not now.   

 

But, we are talking very small differences.     Wolf has Really impressed me.  But it also shows just How good a goalie's got to be, like Saros for instance, to come in at 22 and get that .923 in his first NHL year.  Amazing.

Nobody in this conversation is a slouch.

 

Two game starts, one a shutout, the other 7 goals against.

Hard to make much of that.

 

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Two game starts, one a shutout, the other 7 goals against.

Hard to make much of that.

 

 

Well you know what they always say, as long as you keep it under 8 you're giving em a solid chance

[robrob74]

So in reality, should we be questioning the equipment and not the goaltending? Has goaltending in the nhl gone downhill because of the rule changes in equipment, or have they already started to prior to. 
 

There was a time almost no one was scoring goals, exaggeration, but I think what I am trying to say is, the fact there are only a small handful of goalies in higher status towards elite, has the rule changes exposed the goalies that would otherwise have advantage due to large goalie equipment? 
 

in turn, numbers might have favoured goalies in the past and in reality maybe they were only as good as average goalies today? I wouldn't know which ones would fall in the category... 

 

imagine, in the 80's there were Allen Besters, or Darren Pangs? 
 

i guess what I'm saying is, maybe average goaltending was always a thing that could win chips? Elite does help a lot. Although, even Roy had horrible years in Montreal and could have looked average when he let in like 9 goals? Not that they were his fault... but just saying on bad teams even good goalies don't have good numbers...

[travel_dude]

19 hours ago, robrob74 said:

So in reality, should we be questioning the equipment and not the goaltending? Has goaltending in the nhl gone downhill because of the rule changes in equipment, or have they already started to prior to. 
 

There was a time almost no one was scoring goals, exaggeration, but I think what I am trying to say is, the fact there are only a small handful of goalies in higher status towards elite, has the rule changes exposed the goalies that would otherwise have advantage due to large goalie equipment? 
 

in turn, numbers might have favoured goalies in the past and in reality maybe they were only as good as average goalies today? I wouldn't know which ones would fall in the category... 

 

imagine, in the 80's there were Allen Besters, or Darren Pangs? 
 

i guess what I'm saying is, maybe average goaltending was always a thing that could win chips? Elite does help a lot. Although, even Roy had horrible years in Montreal and could have looked average when he let in like 9 goals? Not that they were his fault... but just saying on bad teams even good goalies don't have good numbers...

 

The things that jump off the page for me is around changes to the game.

 

The NHL said that it wanted to increase scoring way back when.  Scoring was down in their minds and it made the game "boring" for the new fans.  Hard to sell a 0-0 regulation result as exciting.  OT helped a bit, but that has morphed into a possession snooze fest at times.

 

Make the pads smaller.  Okay maybe that made it harder for poor goalies to make saves.  Increase the number of shots by cracking down on certain infractions.  More PP = more penalties.  Instructing the refs to call more penalties.  I can remember watching playoffs where you could attempt murder on the ice and the refs overlooked it.  Now they call so many bad penalties that scoring can't help but increase.  One thing they don't call as much is running the goalies in the process of scoring.  At most the goal is turned back and some refs will waive it off.  At worst it's a PP for getting the challenge wrong and the goal counts.

 

Wolf looks small in nets because he is small in stature.  He needs to beef up.  The height is one thing, but almost every goalie plays low.  No Ken Dryden's these days.  Wolf plays angles and at times is too fluid and loses the net, but his reflexes will win him games.

[cross16]

19 hours ago, robrob74 said:

So in reality, should we be questioning the equipment and not the goaltending? Has goaltending in the nhl gone downhill because of the rule changes in equipment, or have they already started to prior to. 
 

There was a time almost no one was scoring goals, exaggeration, but I think what I am trying to say is, the fact there are only a small handful of goalies in higher status towards elite, has the rule changes exposed the goalies that would otherwise have advantage due to large goalie equipment? 
 

in turn, numbers might have favoured goalies in the past and in reality maybe they were only as good as average goalies today? I wouldn't know which ones would fall in the category... 

 

imagine, in the 80's there were Allen Besters, or Darren Pangs? 
 

i guess what I'm saying is, maybe average goaltending was always a thing that could win chips? Elite does help a lot. Although, even Roy had horrible years in Montreal and could have looked average when he let in like 9 goals? Not that they were his fault... but just saying on bad teams even good goalies don't have good numbers...

 

Personally I don't think equipment can make you elite. avg to good, probably. Not to so good to average yup, but elite you have to have the skills to get there and equipment isn't going to do that. I can buy that equipment has led to a lowering of goalie performance/stats argument but I also think there are more important factors. 

 

I do think goalie development and the talent pipeline is down and in particular it's down in Canada. Who was the last goalie at the WJC you watched for Canada and went wow? Not that the tournament should be considered the be all end all but you look at the 90s, early 2000s and there's some pretty special names. Since 2008 Canada has only twice had the best goalie at the World Juniors and that was Joel Hofer and Devon Levi, neither of which I would say put out a standout performance. So the pipeline for Canada had dried up quite a bit and given where it use to be I think that's a large impact to the overall quality of goaltending we are seeing. 

 

Mostly though I think it's a tactical thing. I think the quality of shots goalies are facing are much harder. Analytics have shown the value of different shot locations, puck movement, change generation and the game has started to innovate more. Games a lot harder on goalies then it use to be IMO.

 

That's my explanation anyway. I agree for sure that in today's game an elite goalie is not required to win a cup and would actually argue that in a cap system an elite goalie can actually hurt your chances at a cup once they get paid. 

[cberg]

Flames sign goaltender Waltteri Ignatjew, Finish goalie, recent Swedish AL Goalie of the Year, 1year 2-way deal.

[bosn111]

1 year show us what you can do in North America deal? Likely spends most, if not all season with the Wranglers.

 

I recall the Flames had a pretty good Finnish tendy before.

[sak22]

20 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

1 year show us what you can do in North America deal? Likely spends most, if not all season with the Wranglers.

 

I recall the Flames had a pretty good Finnish tendy before.

Only the GOAT Joni Ortio

[cross16]

It has to be a 1 year deal as per the CBA.  Any European player who is signing their first NHL contract between the age of 24-28 has to sign a 1 year deal. 

 

I don't know much about him, just his numbers certainly don't give you much hope, but either way depth was needed. With the plan to get Wolf NHL games next year the Flames don't actually have an NHL goalie under contract next year for the AHL as Dansk is a UFA.  With Seergev staying in NCAA there also isn't a reserve list goalie who was heading to the AHL next year either. 

 

Does look like good depth for the AHL though

 

[conundrumed]

Never heard of him. "Mestis" is Finland's version of the AHL. They were developing him there at 19. Seems crazy.

Why not u20 sarja? His dev looks weird to me, but I'm not really familiar with their processes. He was U20 at 17-18. Then Finland's 2nd best league at 18-19 for 35 starts?

What am I missing? Why was he pushed so fast? Yet no internationals.

We need to launch a full investigation. lol

Somebody championed this signing. I can't make much sense of his profile, I'm sure you all checked, but regardless (irregardless for some lol):

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/279019/waltteri-ignatjew

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Never heard of him. "Mestis" is Finland's version of the AHL. They were developing him there at 19. Seems crazy.

Why not u20 sarja? His dev looks weird to me, but I'm not really familiar with their processes. He was U20 at 17-18. Then Finland's 2nd best league at 18-19 for 35 starts?

What am I missing? Why was he pushed so fast? Yet no internationals.

We need to launch a full investigation. lol

Somebody championed this signing. I can't make much sense of his profile, I'm sure you all checked, but regardless (irregardless for some lol):

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/279019/waltteri-ignatjew

 

 

My only guess is that our Goalie scouts seem to like him? We've done decently with scouting international goalies lately. I wouldn't say Big Save Dave is a grand slam, but it was a pretty good hit. And the LA insider says he's quite impressed with his play this year. So, maybe it's not about numbers so much as it is about mechanics? The LA guy talked about how good Rittich's mechanics can be, and that when he plays within them he can play well. He also mentioned that when shooters wind up he used to kind of start further away and start to kind of back into his net to give a split second longer to react, and that he has gotten back to that... I heard this guy speak about 2-3 weeks ago on Flames Talk with Pat...... 

 

I do think they've done a bit better, so we will see.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

The LA guy talked about how good Rittich's mechanics can be

Always liked him due to exactly this. Whoever he credits for that, hire them. I will definitely champion Rittich for his baseline development. What he lacks he shouldn't worry about. His angles, positioning, side to side and up and down is as sound from a goalie as you'll see. That's all he should focus on. Easily a good backup when he's just playing net by the book.

[bosn111]

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/flames-excited-for-newcomer-ignatjew-s-potential
 

Sigalet’s thoughts in the article.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Never heard of him. "Mestis" is Finland's version of the AHL. They were developing him there at 19. Seems crazy.

Why not u20 sarja? His dev looks weird to me, but I'm not really familiar with their processes. He was U20 at 17-18. Then Finland's 2nd best league at 18-19 for 35 starts?

What am I missing? Why was he pushed so fast? Yet no internationals.

We need to launch a full investigation. lol

Somebody championed this signing. I can't make much sense of his profile, I'm sure you all checked, but regardless (irregardless for some lol):

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/279019/waltteri-ignatjew

 

 

It's not a rebuild.  It's not a rebuild.  It's not a rebuild.

[travel_dude]

Markstrom since he was rumoured to be going to NJ near TDL:

 

 

1-7-0 record

3.55 GAA

.870 SV%

(zero games with a SV% above .900)

-1.82 GSAA

[phoenix66]

On 4/15/2024 at 9:01 AM, travel_dude said:

 

The things that jump off the page for me is around changes to the game.

 

The NHL said that it wanted to increase scoring way back when.  Scoring was down in their minds and it made the game "boring" for the new fans.  Hard to sell a 0-0 regulation result as exciting.  OT helped a bit, but that has morphed into a possession snooze fest at times.

 

Make the pads smaller.  Okay maybe that made it harder for poor goalies to make saves.  Increase the number of shots by cracking down on certain infractions.  More PP = more penalties.  Instructing the refs to call more penalties.  I can remember watching playoffs where you could attempt murder on the ice and the refs overlooked it.  Now they call so many bad penalties that scoring can't help but increase.  One thing they don't call as much is running the goalies in the process of scoring.  At most the goal is turned back and some refs will waive it off.  At worst it's a PP for getting the challenge wrong and the goal counts.

 

Wolf looks small in nets because he is small in stature.  He needs to beef up.  The height is one thing, but almost every goalie plays low.  No Ken Dryden's these days.  Wolf plays angles and at times is too fluid and loses the net, but his reflexes will win him games.

To me, changes to equip started to evolve around the time goalies started to get bigger . In the old days they relied heavily on athleticism. Bernie Parent was the first to really master the incorporation of angles..made him dominant . Nearly every goalie had some form of cheat code.. I recall Marc D'amour had a cheat web on his catcher .. rules started coming in regarding cheats like that ..and soon they regulated size and dimensions of equipment . An important note is Roman Turek, due to his "size " had to get special league permission to wear what was classified as illegal due to the fact he was the tallest goalie the NHL had ever seen ...he was 6'4..   nowadays 6'4 is passable ..  Wolf is 6' and has heard the knock on his size his entire career.. hed have been a big goalie in the old days .. probabaly a first rounder .

Goalies were getting so big they practically just had to stand there and let pucks hit them.. so changes were made to not let them get even bigger due to their equipment...  Now goalies are not just big but they are getting athletic again. A reason markstrom is so good