Goaltending

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Well that would mean that it's an emotionally fragile team that can't handle adversity. Not a good look, at all, for a team with playoff aspirations.

Can we stop pretending that it's because Markstrom's no good and giving the player's that are responsible for scoring and defending decently free passes.

Blaming G is, and has always been, waaay too easy of an out.

Queue the "yeah but's", which amounts to 20 free passes...

I don't get the Markstrom hate. Watch the team in front of him if outrage is your goal.

 

I tried to point out that we should be looking at the D (in an effort to divert from goaltending) but that went down in absolute Flames lol.  Not bumping that thread.

 

But, there is a reason that the goaltending thread will never archive, and the defense thread has to be bumped regularly to keep it from archiving.    There's also a reason we don't have a 2-way play thread for forwards.

 

People  like to blame the goalie and, to be fair, it's an important position.   I actually don't really care if Markstrom's playing just ok or bad, I'm more interested in the play of the goalies we have with a better chance of contributing to a cup in the future.

 

Right now that's basically Wolf.  You could make a very optimistic arguement for Vladar.    For that reason I want to see more of them.    

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Well that would mean that it's an emotionally fragile team that can't handle adversity. Not a good look, at all, for a team with playoff aspirations.

Can we stop pretending that it's because Markstrom's no good and giving the player's that are responsible for scoring and defending decently free passes.

Blaming G is, and has always been, waaay too easy of an out.

Queue the "yeah but's", which amounts to 20 free passes...

I don't get the Markstrom hate. Watch the team in front of him if outrage is your goal.

i don't blame the goalie other than the fact he seems to let in easy ones nearly every game. But the team stinks in front of him for whatever reasons. Other than the 1-2 he lets in that he should have, he's been really good.

[travel_dude]

The blame to the goalies is about the same as the blame to the D.

It's very targeted and covers up the overall play of the team.

It's not A + B.  It's A + B + C.

 

The goalies are wandering and the D try to figure out what the play will be.

Poor communication leaving the D scrambling to get to the spot the goalie wants them.

Refer to as the Mike Smith problem; D rush the first pass when they get it.

 

The D are making passes from a standstill to a F.

The gaps between them is too far.

The F are not breaking out as a unit.

They are standing still when the long pass gets to them.

 

The good:

Goalie stops the puck behind the net and makes a drop to the D.

The D skate out and make a short pass to a moving F.

The F hit the O-zone with some speed and backup.

There isn't a dump/deflection and chase, so we maintain possession.

At the worst, we are in the zone to get the puck back.

Not one in and the rest back.

 

The Bad:

Goalie stops the puck, then handles it with pressure coming.

The D scramble to get the puck clear of pressure.

They make a short pass in traffic.

 

The ugly:

Goalie stops the puck and drops it to the D.

The D sit back and wait for the team to start moving.

The other team sends one guy in and the D pass it back and forth.

The F have vacated the zone and are on the other side of C.

The time dely means they are just situated, not really moving forward.

The D makes a long pass.

Picked off pass, retrieved easily by the D, or quick transition at the blueline.

 

I have tried to find how different we play when the different goalies are in.

Both goalies play the puck and fire it along the boards.

Both make little passes to the D.

The one difference I have notices is that Vladar is less scrambly in the crease.

He gets beat if his positioning is off or if he can't get back over.

His glove is often a bit low on high risers.

He is good in one on ones.

Marky makes 10 bell saves, but they also seem desperate.

He lets in goals from the puck being pushed in past him.

He loses his crease.

He's good on one on ones but is succeptable to shots from the circle or slot.

 

ANyway, no one cause, but if one goalie is getting better results, then go with that for now.

[cross16]

I think the area of opportunity in terms of improvement in front of goalies is puck management. I don't think it's fair to point at the D because in terms of defending their own zone they are very good. 

 

In the last 30 games at 5 on 5 the Flames are top 5-7 in all major defensive metrics. Shots, Coris, chances, high danger expected etc they are top 5 or 7 across the board in all of them. (They are top 10 in both goals for and expected goals for just to point out)

 

In terms of the goalies at 5 on 5: Vladar an Markstrom are both in the top 20 in shots against and expected goals against. Vlaar 25th in High danger against, Markstrom 33rd. Markstrom is 10th in rebound chances against, Vladar 13th. 

what stands out is rush attempts against. Markstrom is the 11th highest goalie in rush attempts against. Vladar 52nd. 

 

Flames could help Markstrom by managing the puck better and giving up less rush chances (in particular odd man rusehs). Part of that is they tend to trail the game with Markstrom in net and I think this year's versions of the Flames doesn't play the same two way game last year's did. This year's group doesn't cover up as well on aggressive play as last year's did so they give up more rush chances against. 

 

But still need both goalies playing better. 

[conundrumed]

NHL

Markstrom: 13-13-5; 2.86gaa; .893sv%

Vladar: 11-4-4; 2.77gaa; .906sv%

AHL

Wolf: 25-5-1; 2.16gaa; .928sv% 4SO

ECHL

Daniil Chechelev 16-11-1; 3.41gaa; .898sv%

NCAA

Sergeev: 9-4-1; 2.57gaa; .917sv%

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

NHL

Markstrom: 13-13-5; 2.86gaa; .893sv%

Vladar: 11-4-4; 2.77gaa; .906sv%

AHL

Wolf: 25-5-1; 2.16gaa; .928sv% 4SO

ECHL

Daniil Chechelev 16-11-1; 3.41gaa; .898sv%

NCAA

Sergeev: 9-4-1; 2.57gaa; .917sv%

 

If we had Wolf's numbers for one of our NHL goalies, we would be laughing.

That kid is crushing it.

[bombcomputers]

Markstrom and Vladar this season. 

Vladar and Wolf next season. ☀️

[bombcomputers]

Go Markstrom! 

Go Vladar! 

Go Flames! 

 

Hockey, that great game of skill and mistakes! 

[jjgallow]

4 game win streak, I am surprised to see the criticisms in here right now,

 

But I love it.   lol.

 

The way I see it, goaltending was a problem but has been better in recent games.  Data supports that.

 

Looking ahead, let's assume things keep improving... are we good for the playoffs?   I don't know that we have that killer instinct goalie we need who will raise their play another notch in the post-season.  I do think you want that.

 

Do we have it in Wolf?  Maybe maybe not.     Chechelev?  Maybe maybe not.

 

I know this sounds greedy but I'd still like to have one more high-level goalie prospect.   If I could complain/whine about one thing, this would be it right now.  Not Markstrom or Vladar (I've already covered all that in this thread lol).

You would think we are good with 3 goalie prospects but I really do think one more is needed.  And if I'm wrong and you get two 1A goalies down the road, not so bad.

[conundrumed]

27 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

4 game win streak, I am surprised to see the criticisms in here right now,

 

But I love it.   lol.

 

The way I see it, goaltending was a problem but has been better in recent games.  Data supports that.

 

Looking ahead, let's assume things keep improving... are we good for the playoffs?   I don't know that we have that killer instinct goalie we need who will raise their play another notch in the post-season.  I do think you want that.

 

Do we have it in Wolf?  Maybe maybe not.     Chechelev?  Maybe maybe not.

 

I know this sounds greedy but I'd still like to have one more high-level goalie prospect.   If I could complain/whine about one thing, this would be it right now.  Not Markstrom or Vladar (I've already covered all that in this thread lol).

You would think we are good with 3 goalie prospects but I really do think one more is needed.  And if I'm wrong and you get two 1A goalies down the road, not so bad.

Do it with another later round pick. We definitely don't need another prospect goalie rn, unless he's overseas, in the USHL, CHL or NCAA as an undrafted prospect. They'll need quality starter time.

2 years ago I'd agree that our G pipeline was hot garbage. You have to hand it to the staff, that was a quick turnaround. Now I have to give BT a pass. I despised how he treated G. Getting Markstrom was huge. Vladar wouldn't be what he is right now being Elliot/Smith's understudy.

BT's getting much better advice at G now, because he sucked at it. It was a big weakness for us.

So glad Markstrom isn't in Edmonton, as was rumoured. At his very worst, he's worth the $6 to support Vladar. I doubt this will be that scenario, but Markstrom is a substantial asset even just to help Vladar and Wolf progress.

Not many young goalies have taken the NHL by storm without that seasoned vet being cool with giving advice.

I'm not in the camp that thinks a Markstrom trade would be little return. Not really interested in trading him either.

He gives us stability. Most of all, he really isn't to blame. Amazingly, minus Kylington, Gudbranson and suddenly the D can't read him very well.

[jjgallow]

19 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Do it with another later round pick. We definitely don't need another prospect goalie rn, unless he's overseas, in the USHL, OHL or NCAA as an undrafted prospect. They'll need quality starter time.

2 years ago I'd agree that our G pipeline was hot garbage. You have to hand it to the staff, that was a quick turnaround. Now I have to give BT a pass. I despised how he treated G. Getting Markstrom was huge. Vladar wouldn't be what he is right now being Elliot/Smith's understudy.

BT's getting much better advice at G now, because he sucked at it. It was a big weakness for us.

So glad Markstrom isn't in Edmonton, as was rumoured. At his very worst, he's worth the $6 to support Vladar. I doubt this will be that scenario, but Markstrom is a substantial asset even just to help Vladar and Wolf progress.

Not many young goalies have taken the NHL by storm without that seasoned vet being cool with giving advice.

I'm not in the camp that thinks a Markstrom trade would be little return. Not really interested in trading him either.

He gives us stability. Most of all, he really isn't to blame. Amazingly, minus Kylington, Gudbranson and suddenly the D can't read him very well.

 

You remember all those years ago when I vehemently defended Ortio, despite how confident I was in him, I still strongly supported getting more goaltending prospects..   So, it's not necessarily a knock on Wolf.

 

But the truth is, if Wolf really is for real, we will have a vacant AHL spot and soon.   If Wolf isn't for real, then, we're going to need another prospect there.  Both lead to the same need.

 

So, we can go that far without offending anyone!  It's a new thing for me.

 

 

So now, you might say:  Chechelev.                 ..  for me that's a huge, huge, huge outside chance.

                                                                          ..  maybe not a hard pass, but probably a soft pass.

 

So now, you might say:  Sergeev.     --He gonna go get that degree.  We won't have to see or develop him for years.
                                     Will he eventually fill an AHL spot?  I dunno.
                                    By the time he graduates he may just go straight NHL.  If he's for real.
                                   He's a step up from Chechelev.   But put it this way:
                                  He's a step below Gillies.  He's missing one gear needed for annointment.
                                                   Sergeev missing one gear.  Chechelev missing two.
                                                  And these are my thoughts.

But I do agree with you on a goalie outside North America, more because, they tend to...be better goalies these days.

 

 

 

Here's my unconditional positivity translataion, if it helps:
1.  Nothing wrong with having 2 1A goalie prospects.  Or 3, or 4.  Not hard to find buyers, they ain't Left Wingers.   If you're going to stack a position, here's where to stack.

2.  Yes, a team does have room to develop at least 2 of them at the same time, just in the AHL (goalie tandem + callups).   More if some are in US college or SM Liiga etc.

[jjgallow]

[conundrumed]

Maybe it's a good time to rank leagues. I'll start.

NHL

KHL

SEL

AHL

MHL

Liiga

ECHL

CHL

NCAA

USHL

 

This is just my guess and I invite everyone's guess.

There really isn't a lot of separation from maybe 6-10 imo.

[conundrumed]

jjgallow is typing...

lol

[jjgallow]

1 minute ago, conundrumed said:

Maybe it's a good time to rank leagues. I'll start.

NHL

KHL

SEL

AHL

MHL

Liiga

ECHL

CHL

NCAA

USHL

 

This is just my guess and I invite everyone's guess.

There really isn't a lot of separation from maybe 6-10 imo.

 

Pretty much, 

 

I might rank the NCAA a lot higher.  The rest fine.
 

And, there's lots of weird situations where these guys go pro in random leagues.  Usually for a combination of experience/money, if they can cut it.    They usually get lost by the scouts cause you would need 50 scouts:
https://www.eliteprospects.com/leagues

[conundrumed]

Just now, jjgallow said:

 

Pretty much, 

 

I might rank the NCAA a lot higher.  The rest fine.
 

And, there's lots of weird situations where these guys go pro in random leagues.  Usually for a combination of experience/money, if they can cut it.    They usually get lost by the scouts cause you would need 50 scouts:
https://www.eliteprospects.com/leagues

My take on the NCAA is that there are enough players that will be NHLers that take the CHL route, but it's pretty much a saw off. It's close. Just scout Minny and Michigan hard. They're the US hotbeds. They should be part of Canada if they'd give up their gun-love.lol

[jjgallow]

ah.  perfect segway into gun laws!  I was just about to go there

[conundrumed]

11 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

ah.  perfect segway into gun laws!  I was just about to go there

For a ranching, farming and hunting province, the Flames definitely need more big game hunters than Toffoli.

Stone's shot in a talented winger would help.

But I do remember @jjgallow you putting up a fuss about Pelletier being our best prospect.

How do you like me now?lol

Zary is the same age. I care not how the NHL skews it. Zary is the next call up at forward.

Would you like my opinion on Phillips? It starts with toss him into a deal. AHL is whatever.

Pelletier was always a really good, bonafide pick at 26th oa. This is him.

Easily a top 6 on this roster, and many others. Him and Zary are really good late 1st picks.

[jjgallow]

3 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

For a ranching, farming and hunting province, the Flames definitely need more big game hunters than Toffoli.

Stone's shot in a talented winger would help.

But I do remember @jjgallow you putting up a fuss about Pelletier being our best prospect.

How do you like me now?lol

Zary is the same age. I care not how the NHL skews it. Zary is the next call up at forward.

Would you like my opinion on Phillips? It starts with toss him into a deal. AHL is whatever.

Pelletier was always a really good, bonafide pick at 26th oa. This is him.

Easily a top 6 on this roster, and many others. Him and Zary are really good late 1st picks.

 

stop trying to divert the conversation away from gun laws.

 

I'll bite though:

 

Pelletier:  opinion unchanged.   But I might say our best prospect now is Wolf.  Unless that's what you meant.

                                  --and yes size worries me.  everywhere.

 

  Wranglers doing well.  Surely at least one of those guys can translate to the NHL.  I don't know which one.

And why don't I know?  ha.  well.   pretty clear why not.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Do it with another later round pick. We definitely don't need another prospect goalie rn, unless he's overseas, in the USHL, CHL or NCAA as an undrafted prospect. They'll need quality starter time.

2 years ago I'd agree that our G pipeline was hot garbage. You have to hand it to the staff, that was a quick turnaround. Now I have to give BT a pass. I despised how he treated G. Getting Markstrom was huge. Vladar wouldn't be what he is right now being Elliot/Smith's understudy.

BT's getting much better advice at G now, because he sucked at it. It was a big weakness for us.

So glad Markstrom isn't in Edmonton, as was rumoured. At his very worst, he's worth the $6 to support Vladar. I doubt this will be that scenario, but Markstrom is a substantial asset even just to help Vladar and Wolf progress.

Not many young goalies have taken the NHL by storm without that seasoned vet being cool with giving advice.

I'm not in the camp that thinks a Markstrom trade would be little return. Not really interested in trading him either.

He gives us stability. Most of all, he really isn't to blame. Amazingly, minus Kylington, Gudbranson and suddenly the D can't read him very well.

 

I don't mind drafting another goalie. They'd be in the junior leagues for another year or two and then transition after. By then we have a space for them somewhere in the organization. 
 

I agree they need to play. Pekka Rinne was a backup apparently in his draft year. 
 

I feel like Markstrom hasn't been the same since the Oilers series. Maybe there is no correlation. I don't know what mindset a team gets after goalies let in a lot of first shot goals and most of them bad ones at that. Perhaps there is still a lot of residue from those bad goals. He's still letting in goals he needs to save, albeit when the team no shows where it wouldn't matter, but I don't know why that's the case, and maybe when he does the team just thinks it's over anyway. 
 

so yes, he's playing well, but for whatever reason, he still lets in a fluffer and even when only scored on once or twice where if the team doesn't score anyway it wouldn't matter. I don't know what it is. Is it the goal, the play with him in net and the communication or the way he plays the puck? Or just worried he lets in a goal, it's over?

[jjgallow]

 

I think we are all on the same page actually.  or kind of.

 

My only thing though is I don't know that it necessarily needs to be a late round pick.   Imho high goalie picks can retain or lose value the same as forwards.   It's not a bad investment if the goalie is good.   Askarov has yet to show it, Wallstedt on the other hand is showing it.   50% ain't no different than drafting a forward.

 

Nothing wrong with PTOs either.  They had the right idea with Schneider.   WJC's was packed full of undrafted dominant goalies this year.

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

stop trying to divert the conversation away from gun laws.

 

I'll bite though:

 

Pelletier:  opinion unchanged.   But I might say our best prospect now is Wolf.  Unless that's what you meant.

                                  --and yes size worries me.  everywhere.

 

  Wranglers doing well.  Surely at least one of those guys can translate to the NHL.  I don't know which one.

And why don't I know?  ha.  well.   pretty clear why not.

Opinion unchanged? lol

You were trying to sell us that Ryan Francis was our best prospect.

You don't see that his Pelletier is easily NHL caliber? Then Zary and Coronato in all likelyhood.

I was kinda hoping Pelletier would get the call, and he'd relax us all that the farm is healthy.

Totally happened. Duehr helping.

[zima]

So are we not worried about our future we have about 4 top 9 players no #1 like a mony or chucky or even mang at this point. I know the Wranglers are high in the standings but that is what quality goal tending does for a team if we had that in the Flames we could possibly be doing as well as the Kraken. I will nev er understand why we would hide such a player in the minors specially with the problems in net? 

[conundrumed]

14 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I think we are all on the same page actually.  or kind of.

 

My only thing though is I don't know that it necessarily needs to be a late round pick.   Imho high goalie picks can retain or lose value the same as forwards.   It's not a bad investment if the goalie is good.   Askarov has yet to show it, Wallstedt on the other hand is showing it.   50% ain't no different than drafting a forward.

 

Nothing wrong with PTOs either.  They had the right idea with Schneider.   WJC's was packed full of undrafted dominant goalies this year.

I wouldn't take a goalie in 3 rds. Vasilevsky I relented on. He was a monster in his draft year. If NA birth, he'd have been top 3.

He was this terrorizing in his draft year. If he's in net, all bets are off.

Easily, easily, one of the top 5 players in the league. Skaters included.

[jjgallow]

37 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Opinion unchanged? lol

You were trying to sell us that Ryan Francis was our best prospect.

You don't see that his Pelletier is easily NHL caliber? Then Zary and Coronato in all likelyhood.

I was kinda hoping Pelletier would get the call, and he'd relax us all that the farm is healthy.

Totally happened. Duehr helping.

 

Opinion unchanged.   We are far, far removed from having to decide if an 18 or 19 year old Monahan or Iginla should break the lineup or not, is my point.

 

At the time, Francis May have (not definitely) been our best prospect.

     Something happened to Francis.  I don't know what it was, it's unfortunate.

       There was a point in Flames training camp where he looked NHL ready, and he has regressed every year since then.

           He can barely keep up in the ECHL now.  That's obviously not natural, and I don't think it's really fair to him because he Was quite promising at one time.

 

The rest of these guys, they all still have a lot to prove.  Opinion unchanged.

 

I do think, just in terms of odds, that at least One of them will break through.   But that's not because any one of them stands out, it's just numbers-wise, somebody's gonna jump a level development-wise.  Others will regress.