Goaltending

[tmac70]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Not sure this really belongs here, but there wasn't a thread that it really fit.

 

Through 53 games…#Flames

Last szn: 7th in 5v5 goals for

This szn: 8th

 

Last szn:1st in 5v5 goals against

This szn: 14th

 

Last szn: 3rd in 5v5 SV%

This szn: 29th

The two highlighted IMHO are mostly attributed to poor goal tending. Like I mentioned earlier, stop a few more muffins and this club is in a far different situation than we are now in the standings.

 

The other thing is the decision to play Markstrom from Sutter or is it from upper management.  With Lucic, Markstrom  we have over $11 million in salary that are playing no better than entry level players. Plus Pelts has been in the line up and last night was 100% invisible, maybe the adrenlaine has ran its course. 

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

The two highlighted IMHO are mostly attributed to poor goal tending. Like I mentioned earlier, stop a few more muffins and this club is in a far different situation than we are now in the standings.

 

The other thing is the decision to play Markstrom from Sutter or is it from upper management.  With Lucic, Markstrom  we have over $11 million in salary that are playing no better than entry level players. Plus Pelts has been in the line up and last night was 100% invisible, maybe the adrenlaine has ran its course. 

 

Lucic's actual salary is just $1M now.  The rest of his money this year was paid in the summer.

I get your point though.

Pelletier needs to have more than just him moving the right direction.

Last night the line did squat as a line.  Passes into feet.

We have two lines going and two that have up and down nights.

[travel_dude]

So, Sutter says that the goaltending has been streaky this year.  Does he mean both (which it seems like) or Markstrom.

Vladar may have a few games this season where he let in 4 or more (3 in total), but I wouldn't call it streaky.

[bombcomputers]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

So, Sutter says that the goaltending has been streaky this year.  Does he mean both (which it seems like) or Markstrom.

Vladar may have a few games this season where he let in 4 or more (3 in total), but I wouldn't call it streaky.

No, every tender in the league will have a number of testy games. The idea with me is Markstrom has lost his edge to win. Wins are so critical now, Vladar should be given the starts for a month or something. I agree that a bunch of those losses back there could have been wins if a goalie could have stepped up. Flames have for most games outshot the opponent 2, 3, and 4 to 1.

[conundrumed]

NHL

Markstrom: 14-13-7; 2.93gaa; .891sv%

Vladar: 11-5-4; 2.73gaa; .905sv%

AHL

Wolf: 28-6-1; 2.12gaa; .931sv% 4SO

Chechelev: 1-0-0; 3.69gaa; .879sv%

ECHL

Daniil Chechelev 16-12-1; 3.46gaa; .896sv%

NCAA

Sergeev: 9-5-1; 2.59gaa; .916sv%

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

NHL

Markstrom: 14-13-7; 2.93gaa; .891sv%

Vladar: 11-5-4; 2.73gaa; .905sv%

AHL

Wolf: 28-6-1; 2.12gaa; .931sv% 4SO

Chechelev: 1-0-0; 3.69gaa; .879sv%

ECHL

Daniil Chechelev 16-12-1; 3.46gaa; .896sv%

NCAA

Sergeev: 9-5-1; 2.59gaa; .916sv%

 

Like to see the progression of Sergeev.

Wolf, look somebody learned how to get a SO.

[bombcomputers]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Like to see the progression of Sergeev.

Wolf, look somebody learned how to get a SO.

Major and minor stats are apples and oranges as we all know. Shut outs come and go, as we see with Markstrom this year to last. 

I agree it will be good to have a look at the young minders but that won't happen this year unless there are injuries. Looking forward to the game tomorrow night. Here's for the beginning of a winning spirit that equates to getting used to win after win. Free flowing effective familiarity. 

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, bombcomputers said:

Major and minor stats are apples and oranges as we all know. Shut outs come and go, as we see with Markstrom this year to last. 

I agree it will be good to have a look at the young minders but that won't happen this year unless there are injuries. Looking forward to the game tomorrow night. Here's for the beginning of a winning spirit that equates to getting used to win after win. Free flowing effective familiarity. 

 

Wolf was awesome last year with his stats.

47 games 34-9-4 2.35 GAA  and .924

No shutouts until the playoffs.

 

He's on the cusp of being an NHL goalie. not on the back 9 of an NHL career.

[bombcomputers]

52 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Wolf was awesome last year with his stats.

47 games 34-9-4 2.35 GAA  and .924

No shutouts until the playoffs.

 

He's on the cusp of being an NHL goalie. not on the back 9 of an NHL career.

Sounds good. Can't wait. Maybe Markstrom wants to live and/or play elsewhere with his new wife. Nothing wrong with that. Flames hockey isn't working out for him these days. Why flog a dead horse? 

[conundrumed]

It's fast becoming a league for giving young goalies a chance. They're getting their chances via injury, and a lot are really helping their teams. Ersson looks fantastic, as did Kochetkov had Carolina not had the logjam, he'd still be their guy. Woll looks solid for TML, Ottawa is going through goalies like no tomorrow and their prospects are doing decent. Oettinger literally ripped the starters role for himself last year.

So here we are suffering with league bottom goaltending.

Somebody please, tell me why we're not calling up Wolf to try to instill some at least avg goaltending?

It's worth a shot at this point. It's our last chance to catch the dragon by the tail. If it doesn't work, oh well, it wasn't working anyways.

[conundrumed]

Should also bring up the zero trade talk with Joonas Korpisalo. He's a good goalie and pending UFA. NJ, EDM, BUF, why wouldn't you? 3.14gaa on a terrible, injuy-riddled team, but a .913sv%.

No idea why he isn't being discussed. He knocked the Leafs out of the playoffs in the bubble. He was a huge factor.

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

It's fast becoming a league for giving young goalies a chance. They're getting their chances via injury, and a lot are really helping their teams. Ersson looks fantastic, as did Kochetkov had Carolina not had the logjam, he'd still be their guy. Woll looks solid for TML, Ottawa is going through goalies like no tomorrow and their prospects are doing decent. Oettinger literally ripped the starters role for himself last year.

So here we are suffering with league bottom goaltending.

Somebody please, tell me why we're not calling up Wolf to try to instill some at least avg goaltending?

It's worth a shot at this point. It's our last chance to catch the dragon by the tail. If it doesn't work, oh well, it wasn't working anyways.

I watch a lot of the Wrangler games, Wolf is a very good goalie. However, based on the size he will get lit up in the NHL. When he gets beat it is on high shots. He has great lateral movements and vision though I just think at the NHL level he isn't going to be the stud here as in every other league. The Wranglers block a lot of shots and get into shooting lanes as well. Surprisingly enough they don't have the breakdowns the Flames have on coverage either.

[conundrumed]

Just now, tmac70 said:

I watch a lot of the Wrangler games, Wolf is a very good goalie. However, based on the size he will get lit up in the NHL. When he gets beat it is on high shots. He has great lateral movements and vision though I just think at the NHL level he isn't going to be the stud here as in every other league. The Wranglers block a lot of shots and get into shooting lanes as well. Surprisingly enough they don't have the breakdowns the Flames have on coverage either.

But what do we have to lose, really? We have 2 goalies not cutting it. Boot Mackey to waivers, Wolf isn't waiver-eligible, so why not give him a look? The worst case is seeing what he needs to work on with an NHL look.

[travel_dude]

28 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

I watch a lot of the Wrangler games, Wolf is a very good goalie. However, based on the size he will get lit up in the NHL. When he gets beat it is on high shots. He has great lateral movements and vision though I just think at the NHL level he isn't going to be the stud here as in every other league. The Wranglers block a lot of shots and get into shooting lanes as well. Surprisingly enough they don't have the breakdowns the Flames have on coverage either.

 

Saros says hi.  An athletic goalie can cover the rebounds that a bigger goalie just uses their size to try to do.  The Flames give up way fewer shots than most teams and we still get scored on a ton.  Markstrom is proving to not be the solution.  Vladar is being sacrificed to try to get Marky going.  Great, he played a good game against NY where he made most of the saves.  In the next game he was bland.  Blame or don't blame the goalie, he was not good on several goals.  We should come up with a new stat called ECGA - Expect Crappy Goal Against.  Or LFSGA - Likely First Shot Goal Against.  Just kidding.

 

Back to Wolf.  If we want to have any hope of making the playoffs, we have to fix Markstrom's head, get the backup more and more starts, and look at the next wave.  Nothing tried has worked on Markstrom and Sutter's insistence that he is the starter and he should play 50+ is just insane.  Playing Wolf doesn't solve the problem, but it gives us time.  And maybe the team starts to learn how to play in front of a goalie for a change.  It's so hard to tell how much of the problem is Markstrom and how much is the team.  Any breakdown is in.  Shots from the circles are in.  Pucks sitting on the goal line are in.  Vladar's results recently have not been as good, but those are different goals.  

[cross16]

This isn't for Sutter to think about but I do think the Flames management is going to have to find ways to inject some life into this franchise. This is probably the most boring season the Flames have had in quite a long time (honestly since before Sutter got here the first time) and I think your starting to see it in the fan base. I said this in the GDT but i'm the most disengaged i've been in a while. There is no excitement, energy, belief, skill or fun to the Flames this year and I can tolerate that if your winning but when you are not, well yikes. 

 

The Flames are currently 5th worst in the league at all situation save %. Sure Wolf is small and sure player are going to shoot high on him but at some point you have to realize you can't really do worse and you need something for these fans to get excited about. 

 

 

[conundrumed]

20 minutes ago, cross16 said:

This isn't for Sutter to think about but I do think the Flames management is going to have to find ways to inject some life into this franchise. This is probably the most boring season the Flames have had in quite a long time (honestly since before Sutter got here the first time) and I think your starting to see it in the fan base. I said this in the GDT but i'm the most disengaged i've been in a while. There is no excitement, energy, belief, skill or fun to the Flames this year and I can tolerate that if your winning but when you are not, well yikes. 

 

The Flames are currently 5th worst in the league at all situation save %. Sure Wolf is small and sure player are going to shoot high on him but at some point you have to realize you can't really do worse and you need something for these fans to get excited about. 

 

 

I'd even go a step further. Get that garbage 4th line out of there. In any way you have to. Big bruising (slow af) 4th lines aren't a thing anymore unless it's Perry-Maroon, which it isn't. Detroit runs Zadina-Suter-Sunny. Only Sunny is really that 4th liner. They're a secondary scoring threat. Get our junk off the starting roster.

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, cross16 said:

This isn't for Sutter to think about but I do think the Flames management is going to have to find ways to inject some life into this franchise. This is probably the most boring season the Flames have had in quite a long time (honestly since before Sutter got here the first time) and I think your starting to see it in the fan base. I said this in the GDT but i'm the most disengaged i've been in a while. There is no excitement, energy, belief, skill or fun to the Flames this year and I can tolerate that if your winning but when you are not, well yikes. 

 

The Flames are currently 5th worst in the league at all situation save %. Sure Wolf is small and sure player are going to shoot high on him but at some point you have to realize you can't really do worse and you need something for these fans to get excited about. 

 

 

 

This team is closer to the 2020/21 team than the 2021/22 team.  More scoring and more goals against, but an almost identical home record.  But back then we had skill being shown.  We had a coach that tried everything to get wins.  Even putting Backlund on the wing.  

[cross16]

5 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'd even go a step further. Get that garbage 4th line out of there. In any way you have to. Big bruising (slow af) 4th lines aren't a thing anymore unless it's Perry-Maroon, which it isn't. Detroit runs Zadina-Suter-Sunny. Only Sunny is really that 4th liner. They're a secondary scoring threat. Get our junk off the starting roster.

 

Yup. I think your to the point where the idea of moving out your pending UFAs is not about what value you receive in trades it's what value do you get by the replacements who can play and get ice time. 

 

I don't really care if all they get is late round picks for Lucic/Lewis. I'd rather see Ruzicka in there full time, or bring up Zary, Duher heck even Klapka or Schwidt. 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Yup. I think your to the point where the idea of moving out your pending UFAs is not about what value you receive in trades it's what value do you get by the replacements who can play and get ice time. 

 

I don't really care if all they get is late round picks for Lucic/Lewis. I'd rather see Ruzicka in there full time, or bring up Zary, Duher heck even Klapka or Schwidt. 

 

The best Lucic has played was on the 2nd line, but I would just say that he was only effective when they gained zone time.  He was barely NHL level then.  He made passes to players that created.

 

The team seems unwilling to move on from the cup ringers.  We don't need Lucic in the room telling the younger guys how to win when he's creating scoring chances against.  On a team more likely to miss the p[layoffs, he isn't useful.  Gilbert and Ritchie are more likely to fight.  And Ritchie keeps getting injured in his fights.  All Lewis is doing is giving Sutter an excuse to scratch Ruzicka.  I haven't been happy with the effort leading up to the scratches, but Ruzicka is also trying to drag around less skilled players.  

 

Maybe the wrong place to say this but Sutter has killed this team.  He can't seem to find places for players where they will be consistent.  But the lines are always consistent.  There is no magic from the 2nd line.  Pelletier rarely gets chances because Kadri always wants to shoot.  Huberdeau is always trying to create something but there is little option for a pass.  The top line looks good, but looks a little out of sync.  The Backlund line creates but not much finish.

[tmac70]

In response to the bringing up prospects and the idea of Wolf. I understand the concept of bringing guys up but have to disagree with it. Wranglers have a chance to take a run, why disrupt that to inject them into a situation that is so negative with the Flames? None of these prospects are going to save the season for the Flames. Wolf and the aforementioned prospects are on a positive trajectory for once in this organization. Maybe giving him a taste at the end of the season for a couple of games but that is a risk to the season of the Wranglers if anyone gets hurt. Let these guys run this out and get the experience of playing meaningful hockey and the chance to be champions. IMHO the only positive storyline for this organization right now is the affiliate team. 

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

The best Lucic has played was on the 2nd line, but I would just say that he was only effective when they gained zone time.  He was barely NHL level then.  He made passes to players that created.

 

The team seems unwilling to move on from the cup ringers.  We don't need Lucic in the room telling the younger guys how to win when he's creating scoring chances against.  On a team more likely to miss the p[layoffs, he isn't useful.  Gilbert and Ritchie are more likely to fight.  And Ritchie keeps getting injured in his fights.  All Lewis is doing is giving Sutter an excuse to scratch Ruzicka.  I haven't been happy with the effort leading up to the scratches, but Ruzicka is also trying to drag around less skilled players.  

 

Maybe the wrong place to say this but Sutter has killed this team.  He can't seem to find places for players where they will be consistent.  But the lines are always consistent.  There is no magic from the 2nd line.  Pelletier rarely gets chances because Kadri always wants to shoot.  Huberdeau is always trying to create something but there is little option for a pass.  The top line looks good, but looks a little out of sync.  The Backlund line creates but not much finish.

 the player's selection on some lines I can agree with, Lucic should not be playing. However last night's game in the 1st period alone had 6 top grade-A chances to score 6 and got donuts, Are you saying a new coach and the can instantly score? This happened game in and game out, great chances nothing one missed coverage, and poof in our net. The coach maybe responsible for some areas but the inabilty to defend correctly, make stupid decisions or not be able to score is not. This team would be in 1st if it could get a save when needed and caplitlize on its chances it what i see

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

In response to the bringing up prospects and the idea of Wolf. I understand the concept of bringing guys up but have to disagree with it. Wranglers have a chance to take a run, why disrupt that to inject them into a situation that is so negative with the Flames? None of these prospects are going to save the season for the Flames. Wolf and the aforementioned prospects are on a positive trajectory for once in this organization. Maybe giving him a taste at the end of the season for a couple of games but that is a risk to the season of the Wranglers if anyone gets hurt. Let these guys run this out and get the experience of playing meaningful hockey and the chance to be champions. IMHO the only positive storyline for this organization right now is the affiliate team. 

 

Wolf is in year 2 of being one of the top goalies in the AHL.

How does keeping him in the AHL when the Flames are losing regularly help him?

He has no reference point to his game.

No idea what he needs to be in the NHL.

 

Playing him now in the NHL for a couple of games neither hurts the Flames nor the AHL team.

At worst, he knowss what level he needs to be at.

At best, we win a few games and know how close he is to a backup spot.

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

 the player's selection on some lines I can agree with, Lucic should not be playing. However last night's game in the 1st period alone had 6 top grade-A chances to score 6 and got donuts, Are you saying a new coach and the can instantly score? This happened game in and game out, great chances nothing one missed coverage, and poof in our net. The coach maybe responsible for some areas but the inabilty to defend correctly, make stupid decisions or not be able to score is not. This team would be in 1st if it could get a save when needed and caplitlize on its chances it what i see

 

Couple of things.

1) The coach is responsible for the goalie decision.  Vladar has a winning record and is relegated to warming the bench.  Markstrom has one good game out of 4 and gets the nod.  Buffalo was a game against a very bad goalie.  NY was a solid game for most of the game.  Beyond that, the coach is riding the losing goalie.

 

2) This coach decides on playing man on man coverage.  It worked last year because we had pairs that worked well together.  Sutter decided he didn't like something in the last game and put Ras with Gilbert.  Zaddy-Weegar is not a great pair.  

 

3) The coach is responsible for the PP.  Muller runs it, but it hasn't worked in weeks.  

 

4) You see shifts that look better than others, but they are few and far between.  That is skill overcoming the handicap they have.  The best I have seen from the 2nd line is the 3 way passing a couple of games ago.  Yet we see the exact same top 9 lines run every game.  To be honest, I can't moments of brilliance are because they stop playing the system or because every once in a blue moon they figure out how to play it and get scoring chances.

 

One goalie sucks and the other doesn't instill any confidence in the coach, even when he went on a ridiculous run.  League average goaltending and we aren't just picking the puck out of the net and trying to get or hold a lead.  Sometimes you run into a hot goalie, but getting chances only to see the first one the other team gets go in is deflating.  We rallied to make it 2-1, then oops it's 2-1.  We rally to make it 3-3 only to see it turn into 4-3.

 

I'm not saying a new coach fixes the mess, but this is the type of season that gets coaches fired.  There are enough things gone wrong that he had a hand in.  The type of game we are playing isn't winning games.  The lines may not be any better if they switched, but we are stuck on them because they sometimes work for part of a game?  Being stubborn and losing are not a good combo.

 

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Wolf is in year 2 of being one of the top goalies in the AHL.

How does keeping him in the AHL when the Flames are losing regularly help him?

He has no reference point to his game.

No idea what he needs to be in the NHL.

 

Playing him now in the NHL for a couple of games neither hurts the Flames nor the AHL team.

At worst, he knowss what level he needs to be at.

At best, we win a few games and know how close he is to a backup spot.

 I did mentioned at the end of the year to give him a look, but it comes with risks

[tmac70]

36 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Couple of things.

1) The coach is responsible for the goalie decision.  Vladar has a winning record and is relegated to warming the bench.  Markstrom has one good game out of 4 and gets the nod.  Buffalo was a game against a very bad goalie.  NY was a solid game for most of the game.  Beyond that, the coach is riding the losing goalie.

 

2) This coach decides on playing man on man coverage.  It worked last year because we had pairs that worked well together.  Sutter decided he didn't like something in the last game and put Ras with Gilbert.  Zaddy-Weegar is not a great pair.  

 

3) The coach is responsible for the PP.  Muller runs it, but it hasn't worked in weeks.  

 

4) You see shifts that look better than others, but they are few and far between.  That is skill overcoming the handicap they have.  The best I have seen from the 2nd line is the 3 way passing a couple of games ago.  Yet we see the exact same top 9 lines run every game.  To be honest, I can't moments of brilliance are because they stop playing the system or because every once in a blue moon they figure out how to play it and get scoring chances.

 

One goalie sucks and the other doesn't instill any confidence in the coach, even when he went on a ridiculous run.  League average goaltending and we aren't just picking the puck out of the net and trying to get or hold a lead.  Sometimes you run into a hot goalie, but getting chances only to see the first one the other team gets go in is deflating.  We rallied to make it 2-1, then oops it's 2-1.  We rally to make it 3-3 only to see it turn into 4-3.

 

I'm not saying a new coach fixes the mess, but this is the type of season that gets coaches fired.  There are enough things gone wrong that he had a hand in.  The type of game we are playing isn't winning games.  The lines may not be any better if they switched, but we are stuck on them because they sometimes work for part of a game?  Being stubborn and losing are not a good combo.

 

We view it differently I see a team that has ample chances to score but don't and defensive lapses or poor goaltending that creates a downward spiral. IMHO it's not the system it's an execution and defensive breakdown issue. Will a new voice and system make a huge difference, I do not think it will. A new coach or voice isn't going to miraculously generate better execution, coverage, and goaltending. We all knew this season's scoring was going to be tough. No one imagined the d breakdowns and poor goaltending would be our downfall. If goaltending and breakdowns were better with current production, we are in a playoff spot and these conversations are not happening. Sutter has his flaws as do we all but this is a ice issue.