GM Craig Conroy

[robrob74]

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Due solely to scouting. Every draft lottery is a loss, for NJ, it's a win. The NHL has done zero to help Detroit. We are totally on our own and the NHL can go Blockchain itself with the lottery. Are you prepared for that scenario where our scouting HAS to be almost unreal because every lottery is a guarantee of getting pegged down?

Then, what's your exit strategy? Add free agents? Again, Detroit has been great in that department. Last year they added Perron, Kubalik, Walman and Maatta. Great signings. But every term you sign is with an eye on "help for now and will still command some return".

When does this part of the rebuild end? Because this is exactly the part of the process that stagnates it year after year.

Anaheim is terrible and at the least a few years behind Detroit. Falling to terrible takes a few years just to start. 5 years later you're start wondering about exit strategy,

Are you sure you've got the stomach for it? I sure don't from watching one. I feel like the success rate is low but the success stories are extremely hyperbolic.

or you let your injured guys be injured and you have a season written off and the injureds get healthy again. Maybe better for their careers as well to fully heal and not play as injured as some have.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

2 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Really we did go through a rebuild unfortunately you had the wrong engineer constructing this. Once again we had a 2- top six picks with Monahan and Chucky a 4th with Bennett, 11 th with Valimaki and we got a gem in the 4th round with Gaudreau. We had Norris trophy winner in GIo and we won NOTHING. Currently, we are left with nothing in a top forward, we don't have the game changer or the guy that moves you to the edge of your seat. I loved what Trotz's said  to his scouts " Finding or getting a 3rd 4th liner we can get any time, find me the guy that brings you out of your seat, take some risks" . Trevling is well respected for being a classy guy, but really what has he left us with as a GM.  We all would have taken what he got in return for Chucky, but in IMHO it should have never gotten to that point. All the focus was on JG and the real franchise guy is or was Chucky. He is the one the drags a team into battle. Some will say this couldn't have been avoided I call BS. The attention and focus were misdirected to Matthew from a management level. 

Sutter hockey was never about taking risks. Consistent, steady, defense first was the plan it seemed.  Dependent on the coaching I think we'll see at minimum, a more exciting style next season to the benefit of quite a few of the players.

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Due solely to scouting. Every draft lottery is a loss, for NJ, it's a win. The NHL has done zero to help Detroit. We are totally on our own and the NHL can go Blockchain itself with the lottery. Are you prepared for that scenario where our scouting HAS to be almost unreal because every lottery is a guarantee of getting pegged down?

Then, what's your exit strategy? Add free agents? Again, Detroit has been great in that department. Last year they added Perron, Kubalik, Walman and Maatta. Great signings. But every term you sign is with an eye on "help for now and will still command some return".

When does this part of the rebuild end? Because this is exactly the part of the process that stagnates it year after year.

Anaheim is terrible and at the least a few years behind Detroit. Falling to terrible takes a few years just to start. 5 years later you're start wondering about exit strategy,

Are you sure you've got the stomach for it? I sure don't from watching one. I feel like the success rate is low but the success stories are extremely hyperbolic.

 

Do the Wings have bad scouting?  I haven't followed them much.  But yes you need to do everything right.  It's hard.  Zadina seems like a blown pick.  But that D looks stellar and Cossa is trending well.  Future is looking bright building from the backend out.  Exit strategy is just a matter of speeding up time.

 

Flames and Wings have won 0 Cups in the last 10 years and if you were to ask me who is closer to winning one?  Then I would say the Wings.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Really we did go through a rebuild unfortunately you had the wrong engineer constructing this. Once again we had a 2- top six picks with Monahan and Chucky a 4th with Bennett, 11 th with Valimaki and we got a gem in the 4th round with Gaudreau. We had Norris trophy winner in GIo and we won NOTHING. Currently, we are left with nothing in a top forward, we don't have the game changer or the guy that moves you to the edge of your seat. I loved what Trotz's said  to his scouts " Finding or getting a 3rd 4th liner we can get any time, find me the guy that brings you out of your seat, take some risks" . Trevling is well respected for being a classy guy, but really what has he left us with as a GM.  We all would have taken what he got in return for Chucky, but in IMHO it should have never gotten to that point. All the focus was on JG and the real franchise guy is or was Chucky. He is the one the drags a team into battle. Some will say this couldn't have been avoided I call BS. The attention and focus were misdirected to Matthew from a management level. 

 

Our "rebuild" was a rushed job.  Basically designed to get back to the middle of the pack as quickly as possible.

[sak22]

Just now, The_People1 said:

 

Our "rebuild" was a rushed job.  Basically designed to get back to the middle of the pack as quickly as possible.

I don't know if it was rushed.  They overachieved fast and then followed the overachievement with 2 of the best draft classes in their history, the problem was the 2 drafts before that you get one player who produces good for six years and one who doesn't pan out as hoped for, but 2013 and 2014 classes with many top 60 picks produced 2 regular NHLers is not a great start.  But if Fox signs, the team hits on one of Gillies, Macdonald or Parsons, Monahan has better health, and maybe hire a decent coach after Hartley that actually plays Bennett, and the stars actually want to stay here.  Do you think the team is a competitor in that situation?  In this division I think it easily would make them a consistent contender.  It's not all clear good management vs bad management, it is good luck vs. bad luck mixed in there.  Sure bad decisions were made, but if you go through all the "good rebuild" teams you will find bad moves.

[tmac70]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Our "rebuild" was a rushed job.  Basically designed to get back to the middle of the pack as quickly as possible.

But that said we had the core parts and the draft selections that everyone is been commenting on. We may have never tanked but we did go into a rebuild rushed or not it has been done in the past few years. The fact is the complementary players and selections to move to the next level, yeah that was an epic fail.  

[tmac70]

2 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Sutter hockey was never about taking risks. Consistent, steady, defense first was the plan it seemed.  Dependent on the coaching I think we'll see at minimum, a more exciting style next season to the benefit of quite a few of the players.

Oh, the style will change but will the results. We don't have the elite players to outscore anyone, and if we play that system our  Defensive structure is beyond porus and with poor goaltending yikes. We are not an elite team, like it or not Sutter wasn't wrong with his we don't have game changers, we lost both of them. Not sure who the coach will be but IMHO this season will be hard to watch as well. New systems and style this could be a tire fire

[jjgallow]

7 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

But that said we had the core parts and the draft selections that everyone is been commenting on. We may have never tanked but we did go into a rebuild rushed or not it has been done in the past few years. The fact is the complementary players and selections to move to the next level, yeah that was an epic fail.  

 

So, in the sense that a rebuild is a build out from the goalie, to defence and then forwards,

 

we were literally missing the first and most important part of the rebuild:  Goaltending.   

   For various reasons not excluding team chemistry, some of the most successful rebuilds usually build out from a young emerging goalie, or goalies.  We had none.  so.. yeah

 

Defense, we had Doug Hamilton.  I would call that halfway.   A better outcome with Adam Fox or simply more emphasis here would be needed to call this part done.

 

So those are the 2 most important parts, I would say we got 20-25% right (with Hamilton).

 

What's the next most important?  obviously right wing.  Big fat zero there.

 

Finally, Center and LW.   They get a passing grade here.  But Barely passing. 

Because what's the most important part of Center/LW?    Obviously you first-line Center.

Big fat zero there.

 

Still, some success with C/LW, but at the expense of everything else.  

 

And then of course they traded it all away and/or lost it for nothing.   

[tmac70]

Just now, jjgallow said:

 

So, in the sense that a rebuild is a build out from the goalie, to defence and then forwards,

 

we were literally missing the first and most important part of the rebuild:  Goaltending.   

   For various reasons not excluding team chemistry, some of the most successful rebuilds usually build out from a young emerging goalie, or goalies.  We had none.  so.. yeah

 

Defense, we had Doug Hamilton.  I would call that halfway.   A better outcome with Adam Fox or simply more emphasis here would be needed to call this part done.

 

So those are the 2 most important parts, I would say we got 20-25% right (with Hamilton).

 

What's the next most important?  obviously right wing.  Big fast zero there.

 

Finally, Center and LW.   They get a passing grade here.   But they missed their foundation getting there.

 

And then of course they traded it all away and/or lost it for nothing.   

For there are players that get you in the playoffs and those who excel in the playoffs. Goaltending outside of Kipper has been a huge low spot here, Nest is top-end talent either on a wing or in the middle. The one thing that has always stroked me the wrong way is " best D on paper" But they turn out to be dog crap at best. We have some currently good centerman but outside of that its a crap shoot. I would venture to guess Huberdeau will be better or at least his mouth indicates he should be. Kadri lost a lot of respect for him after the CHI game, that was utterly embarrassing. For goaltending as good as Wolf maybe at the A level, I think expectations are he is going to get rocked when he comes to the show. I would not be surprised if he is traded, although I would like to give the kid a chance. We have 3 goalies two fo which was supreme garbage this year and one won the tender of the year and MVP, who do you move out because someone has to go. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

I don't know if it was rushed.  They overachieved fast and then followed the overachievement with 2 of the best draft classes in their history, the problem was the 2 drafts before that you get one player who produces good for six years and one who doesn't pan out as hoped for, but 2013 and 2014 classes with many top 60 picks produced 2 regular NHLers is not a great start.  But if Fox signs, the team hits on one of Gillies, Macdonald or Parsons, Monahan has better health, and maybe hire a decent coach after Hartley that actually plays Bennett, and the stars actually want to stay here.  Do you think the team is a competitor in that situation?  In this division I think it easily would make them a consistent contender.  It's not all clear good management vs bad management, it is good luck vs. bad luck mixed in there.  Sure bad decisions were made, but if you go through all the "good rebuild" teams you will find bad moves.

 

15 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

But that said we had the core parts and the draft selections that everyone is been commenting on. We may have never tanked but we did go into a rebuild rushed or not it has been done in the past few years. The fact is the complementary players and selections to move to the next level, yeah that was an epic fail.  

 

So for me, Giordano was the reason we came out of the rebuild so quickly.  The man was unreal and turned into a Norris-level D right when it was the best time to tank hard.  He prevented us from drafting Ekblad and McDavid/Eichel.  BT even said I'm his very first press conference as Flames GM that "with a player like Giordano, we can compete with anyone."

 

But why compete!?  We should have tanked hardcore 3 to 5 years and really locked up those prospects.  We should have traded Giordano in 2013 or 2014 for picks and prospects.

 

I knew from the very beginning that by the time our picks and prospects were old enough to dominate that Giordano would be too old.  Surely enough, that's what happened.  

 

Next rebuild, spend time in the basement and make sure all core pieces are around the same age when they reach peak.

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Really we did go through a rebuild unfortunately you had the wrong engineer constructing this. Once again we had a 2- top six picks with Monahan and Chucky a 4th with Bennett, 11 th with Valimaki and we got a gem in the 4th round with Gaudreau. We had Norris trophy winner in GIo and we won NOTHING. Currently, we are left with nothing in a top forward, we don't have the game changer or the guy that moves you to the edge of your seat. I loved what Trotz's said  to his scouts " Finding or getting a 3rd 4th liner we can get any time, find me the guy that brings you out of your seat, take some risks" . Trevling is well respected for being a classy guy, but really what has he left us with as a GM.  We all would have taken what he got in return for Chucky, but in IMHO it should have never gotten to that point. All the focus was on JG and the real franchise guy is or was Chucky. He is the one the drags a team into battle. Some will say this couldn't have been avoided I call BS. The attention and focus were misdirected to Matthew from a management level. 

 

I liked Tkachuk on my team, but he was also frustrating for years.  He can spin whatever story he likes about why he wanted to play in FLA.  I don't buy any of it.  He's Walt's boy, and FF52 would have warned us to expect this, had he been around.

 

I don't blame him for wanting to go to FLA.  But save me the excuses MT.  You went with Brady and pops to look at a boat in FLA, long before you "decided" to ask for a trade.  

[jjgallow]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I liked Tkachuk on my team, but he was also frustrating for years.  He can spin whatever story he likes about why he wanted to play in FLA.  I don't buy any of it.  He's Walt's boy, and FF52 would have warned us to expect this, had he been around.

 

I don't blame him for wanting to go to FLA.  But save me the excuses MT.  You went with Brady and pops to look at a boat in FLA, long before you "decided" to ask for a trade.  

 

87%

 

 

[travel_dude]

25 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

So, in the sense that a rebuild is a build out from the goalie, to defence and then forwards,

 

we were literally missing the first and most important part of the rebuild:  Goaltending.   

   For various reasons not excluding team chemistry, some of the most successful rebuilds usually build out from a young emerging goalie, or goalies.  We had none.  so.. yeah

 

Defense, we had Doug Hamilton.  I would call that halfway.   A better outcome with Adam Fox or simply more emphasis here would be needed to call this part done.

 

So those are the 2 most important parts, I would say we got 20-25% right (with Hamilton).

 

What's the next most important?  obviously right wing.  Big fat zero there.

 

Finally, Center and LW.   They get a passing grade here.  But Barely passing. 

Because what's the most important part of Center/LW?    Obviously you first-line Center.

Big fat zero there.

 

Still, some success with C/LW, but at the expense of everything else.  

 

And then of course they traded it all away and/or lost it for nothing.   

 

One might argue we did exactly that.

We drafted early for a goalie in 2012, 2014 and 2016.

The choices of top rated guys in their draft year (except MacDonald) make sense.

They didn't forsee the future of how those guys would be handled or end up.

We proceeded to add Kulak, Ras and Kylington.

As well as trading for a top RHS D.

Managing the assets is a different story.

[travel_dude]

Just now, jjgallow said:

 

100%

 

 

 

Let me retract that, can't be agreeing 3 times in the same 12 month period.

Ah well, my other reply should negate that.  LOL

[jjgallow]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

Let me retract that, can't be agreeing 3 times in the same 12 month period.

Ah well, my other reply should negate that.  LOL

 

Edited to 87%

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

One might argue we did exactly that.

We drafted early for a goalie in 2012, 2014 and 2016.

The choices of top rated guys in their draft year (except MacDonald) make sense.

They didn't forsee the future of how those guys would be handled or end up.

We proceeded to add Kulak, Ras and Kylington.

As well as trading for a top RHS D.

Managing the assets is a different story.

 

Drafting wise, yeah that's fair.   When none of the goalies were really turning out though (which should not have been a  shocker), thing to do imho would have been trade for one or two strong goalie prospects.   That would have kept us in rebuild mode and at the same time got us the positions we needed.

 

Could have been as simple as trading Adam Fox earlier than we did for a top goalie prospect.   

 

etc etc.

 

our drafting was admittedly improved from the Sutter era, asset management not so much

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, jjgallow said:

 

Drafting wise, yeah that's fair.   When none of the goalies were really turning out though (which should not have been a  shocker), thing to do imho would have been trade for one or two strong goalie prospects.   That would have kept us in rebuild mode and at the same time got us the positions we needed.

 

Could have been as simple as trading Adam Fox earlier than we did for a top goalie prospect.   

 

etc etc.

 

our drafting was admittedly improved from the Sutter era, asset management not so much

 

I think if you looked at a couple of those goalies drafted, you would see a development fail.

Parsons was personal, but they didn't exactly deal with him very well.

Troubled young man.

Gillies you may possibly blame the hip injury.

Or how they chose the other guy, maybe rightly so.

 

I think the NCAA is a risk for picking goalies.

Especially ECAC or whatever they call it now.

[jjgallow]

33 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think if you looked at a couple of those goalies drafted, you would see a development fail.

Parsons was personal, but they didn't exactly deal with him very well.

Troubled young man.

Gillies you may possibly blame the hip injury.

Or how they chose the other guy, maybe rightly so.

 

I think the NCAA is a risk for picking goalies.

Especially ECAC or whatever they call it now.

 

They can't develop goalies straight up, I agree.

 

They probably should have just paid the price to bring in a young NHL goalie at the start of their career.

 

Better yet, of course, addressing the development issue.

[sak22]

58 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

So for me, Giordano was the reason we came out of the rebuild so quickly.  The man was unreal and turned into a Norris-level D right when it was the best time to tank hard.  He prevented us from drafting Ekblad and McDavid/Eichel.  BT even said I'm his very first press conference as Flames GM that "with a player like Giordano, we can compete with anyone."

 

But why compete!?  We should have tanked hardcore 3 to 5 years and really locked up those prospects.  We should have traded Giordano in 2013 or 2014 for picks and prospects.

 

I knew from the very beginning that by the time our picks and prospects were old enough to dominate that Giordano would be too old.  Surely enough, that's what happened.  

 

Next rebuild, spend time in the basement and make sure all core pieces are around the same age when they reach peak.

I blame Hartley more, his earned never given mantra  took some of the useless vets like O'Brien and Galiardi out of the lineup and replaced with guys who weren't good enough but tried their hardest to be.  I also blame Burke for not trading Cammalleri who went on a heater after the deadline.  And Feaster for acquiring Ramo who provided quality goaltending when Joey MacDonald was who we needed to ride at the time.

[Sarasti]

58 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I blame Hartley more, his earned never given mantra  took some of the useless vets like O'Brien and Galiardi out of the lineup and replaced with guys who weren't good enough but tried their hardest to be.  I also blame Burke for not trading Cammalleri who went on a heater after the deadline.  And Feaster for acquiring Ramo who provided quality goaltending when Joey MacDonald was who we needed to ride at the time.

 

This is a fair assessment.

Ownership mantra of being remarkably mediocre really hurt us at the time.

[MP5029]

I’m of a different thought process for rebuilding…kinda along the FLA lines, trade your vets for younger players to the right teams…target 25 or younger and rebuild around our mid 20’s and younger guys…Manji being the age cap now would be just about 30 and the leader Vet on the team same with say Anderson on D

[Thebrewcrew]

The way the Panthers are built is so unique and difficult to do. But also probably not the ideal way to build a team. But, hey, they might win a Cup.

 

They drafted a goalie in the first round then a few days later spent 70m on a goalie. Really weird and hasn't worked particularly well. If Bob wins them a Cup, it was well worth it.

 

They haven't drafted very well. Only 3 players in their playoff lineup were drafted by them. All three were 1st roundd picks.

 

Their pro scouting team has done an incredible job. They've done a nice job filling out the bulk of the roster with players acquired via trade, UFA, waivers.

 

The big issue is that they've traded away so many picks. They're going to go 4 years between 1st round picks. That's going to catch up with them

 

If they win, it's all worth it. Just a completely different way to build a hockey team

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, tmac70 said:

But that said we had the core parts and the draft selections that everyone is been commenting on. We may have never tanked but we did go into a rebuild rushed or not it has been done in the past few years. The fact is the complementary players and selections to move to the next level, yeah that was an epic fail.  

holes.

 

 

BT fail

 

 failed to fill holes

 

 holes many on here think are easy to fill.

 

 Holes

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

So for me, Giordano was the reason we came out of the rebuild so quickly.  The man was unreal and turned into a Norris-level D right when it was the best time to tank hard.  He prevented us from drafting Ekblad and McDavid/Eichel.  BT even said I'm his very first press conference as Flames GM that "with a player like Giordano, we can compete with anyone."

 

But why compete!?  We should have tanked hardcore 3 to 5 years and really locked up those prospects.  We should have traded Giordano in 2013 or 2014 for picks and prospects.

 

I knew from the very beginning that by the time our picks and prospects were old enough to dominate that Giordano would be too old.  Surely enough, that's what happened.  

 

Next rebuild, spend time in the basement and make sure all core pieces are around the same age when they reach peak.

 

yup, most teams in rebuild s trade him for a haul.  Maybe hood value was more in the first few years then

[Thebrewcrew]

Gaudreau is the reason the last rebuild ended quickly.

 

The 13/14 team was bad, but they played hard, which made them at least tolerable. 54pts from Hudler led the team.

 

The next year you add Gaudreau, Calder finalist and finished 2nd in scoring. Weird year, lots of comebacks and career years. 

 

Gaudreau was highly touted but he became a franchise player pretty quick in year one. That ended the rebuild essentially.