Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[MP5029]

6 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

They have been very Sutter-like.  I'm not sure how to interpret that but it's true.   Future-sacrificing moves.

 

BT's drafting record is maybe slightly better but that's unlikely to last with the amounts of picks he's let go.

 

Other similarities:   Sutter's moves were actually usually well-received, aplauded at first, and lost their luster over time.

                              Seeing that with BT too.

 

An interesting difference is that when Sutter was let go it was almost a "let's rebuild" thing.  But with BT, the talk on here is that it's owner-driven win now.

 

Sutter was also an Extremely popular GM until almost weeks/months before he was fired and then there was a complete pivot of opinion on him as a GM.   I don't think anybody saw what was coming next in LA.

 

I expect similar with BT, when that day comes the opinion will pivot fast.

I think the Phaneuf trade is where Sutter

lost support as

the GM…although the Jokinen move had me pretty worried and ended up exactly as I had feared…too old past his prime 

 

at this point I think we see 1-3 years where this team will be ok but we are definitely trending towards the exact same situation as with Sutter when he was

let Go as GM…soon to be a cap jailed team with aged players loosing trade value.

 

having said that, do blame

BT for moving Tachuck…no, by all

accounts it was the best return by far, so regardless of how things shake out the trade and return im

100% fine with…by contrast, resigning both so soon to huge contracts was a flinch move because a gaudreau, had he waited till now pretty sure both Huby and Weegar could have been re-signed and saved a few $$$…so I do blame him for bad contracts, yes I understand why, but the why is Gaudreau walking for nothing…he aught to have seen that coming many of us on here we’re saying trade him before the deadline if he’s not

signed, and that loss I blame BT for again being too trusting, he’s got to stop that and in turn that will stop the bad over 30 contracts too…

 

anyway I see this going back to the dark days of Cap jail with over 30 contracts, limited talent in the youth pool, with depreciating assets…3 years or less that’s where we will be again.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, MP5029 said:

I think the Phaneuf trade is where Sutter

lost support as

the GM…although the Jokinen move had me pretty worried and ended up exactly as I had feared…too old past his prime 

 

at this point I think we see 1-3 years where this team will be ok but we are definitely trending towards the exact same situation as with Sutter when he was

let Go as GM…soon to be a cap jailed team with aged players loosing trade value.

 

having said that, do blame

BT for moving Tachuck…no, by all

accounts it was the best return by far, so regardless of how things shake out the trade and return im

100% fine with…by contrast, resigning both so soon to huge contracts was a flinch move because a gaudreau, had he waited till now pretty sure both Huby and Weegar could have been re-signed and saved a few $$$…so I do blame him for bad contracts, yes I understand why, but the why is Gaudreau walking for nothing…he aught to have seen that coming many of us on here we’re saying trade him before the deadline if he’s not

signed, and that loss I blame BT for again being too trusting, he’s got to stop that and in turn that will stop the bad over 30 contracts too…

 

anyway I see this going back to the dark days of Cap jail with over 30 contracts, limited talent in the youth pool, with depreciating assets…3 years or less that’s where we will be again.

 

 

Thas' right lol.

 

Well, we'll have one thing going for us this time...An AHL time in town.   We can stay occupied with that until they're ready to bring the cup back here.

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

Thas' right lol.

 

Well, we'll have one thing going for us this time...An AHL time in town.   We can stay occupied with that until they're ready to bring the cup back here.

maybe they'll win a champ before the big team does?

[jjgallow]

12 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

maybe they'll win a champ before the big team does?

 

That would basically be my favourite scenario ever.   Win AHL championship in Calgary, get called up, Bring Cup home.

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, jjgallow said:

 

That would basically be my favourite scenario ever.   Win AHL championship in Calgary, get called up, Bring Cup home.

 

id love to see the team start drafting and developing more. They've shown some hits on guys like Dube, Andersson, Mangiapane, Gaudreau, Fox (I'm like others who think the Flames should get credit for scouting and drafting him), and to a bit Kylington (he just has one year of consistent NHL play so not anointing that a win scout/draft yet), Ruzie so far so good, Anderson the goalie, & Backlund. 
 

we have some... but i would love to see them draft and develop and come up together like the Lightening. 
 

to me, the cup is hard. We can be contenders every year and never win, so for me, that is a win, to be in the conversation every year for a good portion. 
 

the Wings didn't win every year, but we're relevant which seemed like forever. Making the finals a bunch. I'm not saying I don't want to win the cup, I'm saying I want to, but don't want to be in the playoffs every other year or 1-2 years then miss. I want to be in every year. 

[pikey7883]

57 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

That would basically be my favourite scenario ever.   Win AHL championship in Calgary, get called up, Bring Cup home.

Usually reading your posts makes me feel like I’m beating my head against a brick wall, lol. (To be fair, I do enjoy your take on things). But this post is why I play Jekyll and Hyde with myself when I look at the flames. 
On one hand I wanna see the flames win, I see someone like Meier who’s available and costs us most likely a 1st and a Pelltier or a Coronato (and a salary player exchange). But when I’m doing that I think what if in two or three years our top line is 

Pelltier - Lindy - Coronato

and our second line gets to be

Hubie - Kadri - Ruzie

which affords us a third line of 

Coleman - Zary - Schwindt

and Backs signs that good 35+ deal and shelters a couple other young guys to lead the way, and I think.

Let’s ride this thing out a little further.

 

[jjgallow]

6 minutes ago, pikey7883 said:

Usually reading your posts makes me feel like I’m beating my head against a brick wall, lol. (To be fair, I do enjoy your take on things). But this post is why I play Jekyll and Hyde with myself when I look at the flames. 
On one hand I wanna see the flames win, I see someone like Meier who’s available and costs us most likely a 1st and a Pelltier or a Coronato (and a salary player exchange). But when I’m doing that I think what if in two or three years our top line is 

Pelltier - Lindy - Coronato

and our second line gets to be

Hubie - Kadri - Ruzie

which affords us a third line of 

Coleman - Zary - Schwindt

and Backs signs that good 35+ deal and shelters a couple other young guys to lead the way, and I think.

Let’s ride this thing out a little further.

 

 

We do have some pieces I must say yes.  But...I think we've gone so long without prospects that we've sort of forgotten what they look like.   Your projection is imho absolute best case scenario and man if plays out that way and they win games with it, I'll be the happiest guy.   But it is also possible a lineup like that puts us in the draft lotto for several years.   We'll find out soon I think.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

id love to see the team start drafting and developing more. They've shown some hits on guys like Dube, Andersson, Mangiapane, Gaudreau, Fox (I'm like others who think the Flames should get credit for scouting and drafting him), and to a bit Kylington (he just has one year of consistent NHL play so not anointing that a win scout/draft yet), Ruzie so far so good, Anderson the goalie, & Backlund. 
 

we have some... but i would love to see them draft and develop and come up together like the Lightening. 
 

to me, the cup is hard. We can be contenders every year and never win, so for me, that is a win, to be in the conversation every year for a good portion. 
 

the Wings didn't win every year, but we're relevant which seemed like forever. Making the finals a bunch. I'm not saying I don't want to win the cup, I'm saying I want to, but don't want to be in the playoffs every other year or 1-2 years then miss. I want to be in every year. 

 

There's nothing wrong with the middle-ground of just being a good organization that gets a little better every year and I'd be down for that.   I just think that ship has sailed though because of how much we've gutted our picks/prospects.   In theory though, a team that just consistently makes responsible decisions should not have to rebuild.  Or, their rebuilds can be extremely mild and short.

[JTech780]

I thought when Sutter was brought in that it was a good move, but it felt like a move that wasn’t Treliving’s idea, more that the owners forced it on him.

 

Now it appears that Sutter and Treliving are at odds because the team that Treliving has built isn’t necessarily the team that Sutter wants. Sutter wants size and a lot of Calgary’s best players and prospects don’t have a ton of size.

 

I just can’t see a situation where both guys are back next season. The problem is there isn’t a whole lot that can be changed with the players, and I don’t think we have the right coach for the team that is assembled. Problem is he is signed and Treliving is not, so Tre is probably gone at the end of the season and ownership will bring in someone like Dean Lombardi who will bring in the players Sutter wants, or at least try too.

 

The whole situation feels like trying to fit a square peg in a round whole.

[tmac70]

^^^ Have to agree with this. The team that Tre belives will or could compete can't. His version of smaller skilled guys just doesn't work. For example Tre brought in Lucic just for presance on the roster and on the ice. The team last year had Gubranson, Zadorov, and Lucic. Gubranson was better than advertised and Big Z been very good this year. Just imagine if Gubranson would have stayed whats the look on the back end now. Regardless of anyones position on the coach, muliple players vastly improved under Sutter. Are his systems right or wrong hard to judge with this group of players. What scares me is leaving Sutter in charge of the trades and aqusitions it will be a nightmare. The cupboards will be bear if he gets hold of this for sure. 

[sak22]

Very realistic that Treliving's lack of extension is due to to the fact he has given out 2 of the richest contracts recently, has been on the job for 9 years and hasn't made it out of the second round, with a lack of consistency of making playoffs.  But thanks guys, I now see why my grandma loved soap operas so much.

[JTech780]

2 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Very realistic that Treliving's lack of extension is due to to the fact he has given out 2 of the richest contracts recently, has been on the job for 9 years and hasn't made it out of the second round, with a lack of consistency of making playoffs.  But thanks guys, I now see why my grandma loved soap operas so much.

I mean ownership or at least John Bean had to sign off on those extensions.

 

If I am Treliving I am seeing what my options are before signing an extension. 
 

At this point Kadri, Huberdeau, Coleman, Andersson, Weegar and Markstrom are all locked in long term, and are mostly unmovable. There isn’t a lot of wiggle room for next year either. The year after that Backlund, Lindholm, Toffoli, Hanifin, Tanev, Zadorov, Kylington and Rooney all are UFA’s. So it will be an interesting next couple of seasons.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Very realistic that Treliving's lack of extension is due to to the fact he has given out 2 of the richest contracts recently, has been on the job for 9 years and hasn't made it out of the second round, with a lack of consistency of making playoffs.  But thanks guys, I now see why my grandma loved soap operas so much.

 

So, Sutter gets the best out a group of players up to the playoffs, and the team falls on it's face in the 2nd round of the playoffs.  All of those players had career years.  You can argue why some of the guys chose to walk or be traded.  It's possible that a coach that compares a puck through the tongue to stitching up a cow may not be appreciated by the victim.  And it's possible that a coach that is a hardliner may not have as many fans as the team publicly says.  

 

BT goes out and tries to fix the roster by trading for two players with a guy that wanted out.  And signs a needed player type.  Coach isn't able to get top play out of any of them.  They have nearly the same roster as last year, with the addition of Kadri and replacing a missing Kylington.  Apart from similar standings in a week division, we have not taken steps in getting better.  

 

GM gives the tools to the coach.  Coach needs to make those work.  It's not like we have a bunch of bums out there.  The values of the players is par with how they get paid in other teams.  For the relative skill levels, this team only has one overpaid player.  Not everyone is performing at their expected level, but that's not on the GM.

 

If we expect to compete, we need ELC's and lesser paid players getting to higher value.  Can't replace Backlund if we aren't building up that position at the NHL level.  Can't trade Hanifin if we don't have people in the org that can step up.  Can't improve the top 9 if we never look at younger players.

[flames for life]

30 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, Sutter gets the best out a group of players up to the playoffs, and the team falls on it's face in the 2nd round of the playoffs.  All of those players had career years.  You can argue why some of the guys chose to walk or be traded.  It's possible that a coach that compares a puck through the tongue to stitching up a cow may not be appreciated by the victim.  And it's possible that a coach that is a hardliner may not have as many fans as the team publicly says.  

 

BT goes out and tries to fix the roster by trading for two players with a guy that wanted out.  And signs a needed player type.  Coach isn't able to get top play out of any of them.  They have nearly the same roster as last year, with the addition of Kadri and replacing a missing Kylington.  Apart from similar standings in a week division, we have not taken steps in getting better.  

 

GM gives the tools to the coach.  Coach needs to make those work.  It's not like we have a bunch of bums out there.  The values of the players is par with how they get paid in other teams.  For the relative skill levels, this team only has one overpaid player.  Not everyone is performing at their expected level, but that's not on the GM.

 

If we expect to compete, we need ELC's and lesser paid players getting to higher value.  Can't replace Backlund if we aren't building up that position at the NHL level.  Can't trade Hanifin if we don't have people in the org that can step up.  Can't improve the top 9 if we never look at younger players.

Totally agree, and I think you stated quite eloquently.  I think Tre had a strategy in mind, and Sutter returned to coaching with the old school strategy of big and hard wins best.  As a result, most of our drafting of skill and competitiveness goes out the window, because they don’t fit Sutter’s idea of what the team show be.

The very fact that Lucic is playing the amount he is, as ineffective as he is demonstrates that with abundance.  Where my greatest concern lies is in that we went through this experiment when Sutter was first coaching here, and it didn’t work then either.  Great defence, with little scoring; which in turn, became a lot of 1 goal games, and eventually apathetic play and effort.  

[sak22]

42 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I mean ownership or at least John Bean had to sign off on those extensions.

 

If I am Treliving I am seeing what my options are before signing an extension. 
 

At this point Kadri, Huberdeau, Coleman, Andersson, Weegar and Markstrom are all locked in long term, and are mostly unmovable. There isn’t a lot of wiggle room for next year either. The year after that Backlund, Lindholm, Toffoli, Hanifin, Tanev, Zadorov, Kylington and Rooney all are UFA’s. So it will be an interesting next couple of seasons.

Yes but it is different when the team is committed money to players they are familiar with vs. players that a GM sells as capable replacements to the players the team was losing.  I just find it hard to believe someone who has all the options in the world apparently would stick in a job that he has no control over.  I don't know, just where we are with coaching again one good year and the coach can do no wrong, results slip the next year and we need to get rid of him.  It's been a long time under this cycle and I don't believe there is a white knight that people expect will change anything.  Like before Luongo people said Vancouver was the goalie graveyard, Calgary is the coaching graveyard and I don't know if I see that changing.  Hard to do a job in a market where everyone on the couch is a better fit.

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Yes but it is different when the team is committed money to players they are familiar with vs. players that a GM sells as capable replacements to the players the team was losing.  I just find it hard to believe someone who has all the options in the world apparently would stick in a job that he has no control over.  I don't know, just where we are with coaching again one good year and the coach can do no wrong, results slip the next year and we need to get rid of him.  It's been a long time under this cycle and I don't believe there is a white knight that people expect will change anything.  Like before Luongo people said Vancouver was the goalie graveyard, Calgary is the coaching graveyard and I don't know if I see that changing.  Hard to do a job in a market where everyone on the couch is a better fit.

 

I think BT had a lot of control, but the owners may have pulled that back a bit.

Peters wasn't a bad hiring, since his issues were not while in CGY.

He may not have been the best coach, but better than a lot.

Wardo was also a good hire as a A/coach.

Maybe not the right one as head coach.

 

Where I think BT lost some of his control was the last year with Wardo.

He decided just to make him head coach, after really not looking.

The Lucic trade wasn't a bad thing so much as a bad final outcome for a poor signing.

But that was on the owners who maybe didn't want to buy ouit Neal and preferred a cheaper actual contract in Lucic.

And make no mistake, Lucic was a player the owners knew the fans would love.  For awhile.

 

So the owners take control of the coach decisions.

BT can fire Wardo, but Sutter is the only replacement he gets.

They okayed the summer spends on new players and re-signing JG and MT.

Perhaps the owners had cheeped out when they could have re-sign earlier (JG) or for longer (MT).

That could be the owners or GM, so I won't suggest it either way.

The owners will accept Kadri, but won't allow a buyout of Monahan.

May not even have been possible but I think Monahan would have preferred it and allowed it.

He would have had a choice of teams,

 

Coaching doesn't have to be hero or zero.  It just has to work.

Build on what worked last year, don't just say that we lost two 40 goal guys.

We added two high level players.

Listen to them, they may have ways to make the lines or play better.

It doesn't have to be my way or highway 1.

 

[tmac70]

35 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, Sutter gets the best out a group of players up to the playoffs, and the team falls on it's face in the 2nd round of the playoffs.  All of those players had career years.  You can argue why some of the guys chose to walk or be traded.  It's possible that a coach that compares a puck through the tongue to stitching up a cow may not be appreciated by the victim.  And it's possible that a coach that is a hardliner may not have as many fans as the team publicly says.  

 

BT goes out and tries to fix the roster by trading for two players with a guy that wanted out.  And signs a needed player type.  Coach isn't able to get top play out of any of them.  They have nearly the same roster as last year, with the addition of Kadri and replacing a missing Kylington.  Apart from similar standings in a week division, we have not taken steps in getting better.  

 

GM gives the tools to the coach.  Coach needs to make those work.  It's not like we have a bunch of bums out there.  The values of the players is par with how they get paid in other teams.  For the relative skill levels, this team only has one overpaid player.  Not everyone is performing at their expected level, but that's not on the GM.

 

If we expect to compete, we need ELC's and lesser paid players getting to higher value.  Can't replace Backlund if we aren't building up that position at the NHL level.  Can't trade Hanifin if we don't have people in the org that can step up.  Can't improve the top 9 if we never look at younger players.

Not sure I agree with this. The coach has to work withwhat he has. Reality is if you need a finsihing carpenter to complete your kitchen you don't  hiring a iron worker to do it.  Tre did well to get Weegar, Hubie and Kadri this off season. However each of these guys has not risen to the occasion of what we lost. In all fairness, the only one having a similar season is Chucky. This team is built by Tre and coached by Sutter. The COL game is a great measuring stick as to how to play to win, Up by 3 shut it down we got 1 and they poured some pressure on. Not once in that game for 60 minutes did CGY even look like they could win 

[sak22]

18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

So the owners take control of the coach decisions.

BT can fire Wardo, but Sutter is the only replacement he gets.

They okayed the summer spends on new players and re-signing JG and MT.

Perhaps the owners had cheeped out when they could have re-sign earlier (JG) or for longer (MT).

That could be the owners or GM, so I won't suggest it either way.

The owners will accept Kadri, but won't allow a buyout of Monahan.

May not even have been possible but I think Monahan would have preferred it and allowed it.

He would have had a choice of teams,

 

 

A buyout doesn't clear enough cap plus leaves a couple million out for next year, so I don't know if it was allowed or not but  they needed to make 100% of the cap hit leave.

[travel_dude]

24 minutes ago, sak22 said:

A buyout doesn't clear enough cap plus leaves a couple million out for next year, so I don't know if it was allowed or not but  they needed to make 100% of the cap hit leave.

 

The buyout would have cleared enough had we not signed Rooney and not carried 9 D.

Might have been able to trade Valimaki at the end of the year.

Before everyone started picking up free agents.

 

The owners 100% have to agree to a buyout, assuming the player accepted it while being on IR.

I don't think it's a NHL or NHLPA thing if the player agrees.

We would have needed a buyout with both Tkachuk and Gaudreau new deals.

And that was to just keep the team together, except for Guddy and Jarnkrok.

 

The various coaches have had huge regular season success and poor results after.

Those swings are less on the GM.

He has misses no doubt.  

Only some of the players have had good seasons here.

 

Anyway, I'm just saying that BT's days may be numbered.

What he says and what the coach does seem to be different.

If there are issues, they probably lean towards paying for a coach to coach over firing him.

No cost to not renew someone.

[Heartbreaker]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

...

Anyway, I'm just saying that BT's days may be numbered.

What he says and what the coach does seem to be different.

If there are issues, they probably lean towards paying for a coach to coach over firing him.

No cost to not renew someone.

 

I think you're right, and I think that's a real bummer. That's not a trade that I would make.

 

Love.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

I think you're right, and I think that's a real bummer. That's not a trade that I would make.

 

Love.

 

I hope I am just wearing a tinfoil hat today.

With the call ups and Sutter's attitude towards smaller players, it seems like we drafted the wrong people.

 

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I hope I am just wearing a tinfoil hat today.

With the call ups and Sutter's attitude towards smaller players, it seems like we drafted the wrong people.

 

 

so Far it seems under BT we've had more success drafting smaller players. Ruzicka is different from that model, but is he an outlier? Ras isn't small but isn't huge. It's hard to say whether Kylington is a success yet as he had one really good half last year and an okay second half. Tkachuk has good size but is a player that kind of fell on the Flames lap when Vancouver didn't draft him.  Monahan was kind of a no brainer too, but could have had Lindholm instead and who would've been in the Hamilton deal otherwise? Not many drafted flames otherwise within the lineup.

[jjgallow]

 

why didn't you guys tell me I just had to be quiet for a few days

[sak22]

10 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

so Far it seems under BT we've had more success drafting smaller players. Ruzicka is different from that model, but is he an outlier? Ras isn't small but isn't huge. It's hard to say whether Kylington is a success yet as he had one really good half last year and an okay second half. Tkachuk has good size but is a player that kind of fell on the Flames lap when Vancouver didn't draft him.  Monahan was kind of a no brainer too, but could have had Lindholm instead and who would've been in the Hamilton deal otherwise? Not many drafted flames otherwise within the lineup.

Lindholm went before Monahan in the draft.  Also a Feaster pick

[conundrumed]

40 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Lindholm went before Monahan in the draft.  Also a Feaster pick

Can we redo the rest of that draft?lol