Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[LouCifer]

https://thehockeywriters.com/flames-treliving-established-himself-elite-nhl-gm/

[DirtyDeeds]

I was thinking that we could have just as easily had Jim Benning.

 

I think we made the better hire.

[The_People1]

I honestly think not so fast on an extension.  While it's crazy the value he got from the Tkachuk trade and was able to land Kadri in UFA, it still needs to be seen how that translates on the ice.  For all we know, nothing works and we will be calling for his head by December.

[cross16]

16 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

I honestly think not so fast on an extension.  While it's crazy the value he got from the Tkachuk trade and was able to land Kadri in UFA, it still needs to be seen how that translates on the ice.  For all we know, nothing works and we will be calling for his head by December.

 

So a GM does his job, does it "crazy" well, and if the players don't do theirs we should fire the GM?

 

I get where this is coming from but this is the logic I'm not sure I really understand anymore and it's what leads to unnecessary turnover of positions IMO. Treliving isn't perfect but I think if you go shopping for a new GM you are likely to do worse and not better. 

 

Just a guess on this but I think an extension is a bit of a formality with Treliving. I don't think the owners ae making him earn the job or anything, they just not negotiate this stuff in public anymore. 

[sak22]

16 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

I honestly think not so fast on an extension.  While it's crazy the value he got from the Tkachuk trade and was able to land Kadri in UFA, it still needs to be seen how that translates on the ice.  For all we know, nothing works and we will be calling for his head by December.

Don't give too much credit, some will call for his head if they lose opening night again.  But we should lower immediate expectations as adding 3 new players who are going to play significant roles will have an adjustment period, even last year the team was fighting for positioning in December and really took off in February and March.  

[The_People1]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

So a GM does his job, does it "crazy" well, and if the players don't do theirs we should fire the GM?

 

I get where this is coming from but this is the logic I'm not sure I really understand anymore and it's what leads to unnecessary turnover of positions IMO. Treliving isn't perfect but I think if you go shopping for a new GM you are likely to do worse and not better. 

 

Just a guess on this but I think an extension is a bit of a formality with Treliving. I don't think the owners ae making him earn the job or anything, they just not negotiate this stuff in public anymore. 

 

It all looks good on paper.  What we've yet to see is if it translates on the ice.  What if the chemistry is all wrong?  What if the players don't fit Sutter's system?  What if there is serious regression in some of the players and player evaluation and projections failed?

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Don't give too much credit, some will call for his head if they lose opening night again.  But we should lower immediate expectations as adding 3 new players who are going to play significant roles will have an adjustment period, even last year the team was fighting for positioning in December and really took off in February and March.  

you look at LA. Wasn't the first cup the year they traded for Richards and later Carter? They had the adjustment period and almost didn't make the playoffs, while before the season started, they were supposed to win the division. So I expect a bit of an adjustment and wouldn't be surprised if the Flames barely make the playoffs.

[cross16]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

It all looks good on paper.  What we've yet to see is if it translates on the ice.  What if the chemistry is all wrong?  What if the players don't fit Sutter's system?  What if there is serious regression in some of the players and player evaluation and projections failed?

 

How can a GM pre determine chemistry? How does a GM plan for serious regression? 

 

I view a GMs job as to mitigate risk. He didn't acquire anyone who appears to be at risk for serious regression. I'm not saying things will go perfect and of course things could not go well but if the don't go well i'm not sure it will be on the GM or something he could have/should have foreseen. 

 

At the end of the day i'm about process and while results are important in pro sports there is also a whole pile of grey area between process and results in this business, most of it outside of a GMs control. 

[sak22]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

you look at LA. Wasn't the first cup the year they traded for Richards and later Carter? They had the adjustment period and almost didn't make the playoffs, while before the season started, they were supposed to win the division. So I expect a bit of an adjustment and wouldn't be surprised if the Flames barely make the playoffs.

Add the adjustment to Sutter.  The biggest difference was LA didn't have 2/3 of their top line going out, or 3 of their top PP unit from the start of the season gone.

[The_People1]

7 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

How can a GM pre determine chemistry? How does a GM plan for serious regression? 

 

I view a GMs job as to mitigate risk. He didn't acquire anyone who appears to be at risk for serious regression. I'm not saying things will go perfect and of course things could not go well but if the don't go well i'm not sure it will be on the GM or something he could have/should have foreseen. 

 

At the end of the day i'm about process and while results are important in pro sports there is also a whole pile of grey area between process and results in this business, most of it outside of a GMs control. 

 

For chemistry for example, try to project where a player plays and with who... And see if the players fit will be good or not.  Don't want 3 shooters on one line for example.

 

For regression, look at age and past performance.  Huberdeau looks clutch but Kadri is coming off a career year at 31 and so a regression is almost expected... 

 

...but too much emphasis on the 3 big new additions.  One could also ask if Zadorov was a mistake to bring back?  Did we extend Mangiapane for too much?  Should we have dumped Lucic instead of Monahan?  Etc, etc.

 

But all ties to performance.  He should be held mostly responsible for putting this team together... And if it all works, he should also take most of the credit.  Works both ways.

[phoenix66]

43 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

I honestly think not so fast on an extension.  While it's crazy the value he got from the Tkachuk trade and was able to land Kadri in UFA, it still needs to be seen how that translates on the ice.  For all we know, nothing works and we will be calling for his head by December.

I'm with Cross on this one .. his job is to supply the players and the coaches job to get the most out of them..  even his 2 biggest "blunders" I still don't blame him for ..

Brouwer was never a top line player , but Gulutzen used him as one , and in every position.. ..  even James Neal.. as a top line winger he'd likely have gotten his 20+ goals ..but Lindholm took the job.... Then he pouted his way out of town . 

Even if Sutter leaves I think ownership is now open to the fact paying a good coach is worth it ..  what other coach wouid have had the stones to break up Johnny and Mony..   not to mention a good coach works with his gm to say " get me this" or "get this guy outta here" 

 

I will say this .. good or bad when he has set his mind on a player he has gotten them nearly every time .. he also hasn't been scared to kick a coach out the door if they aren't using what he's provided properly 

[cross16]

15 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

For chemistry for example, try to project where a player plays and with who... And see if the players fit will be good or not.  Don't want 3 shooters on one line for example.

 

For regression, look at age and past performance.  Huberdeau looks clutch but Kadri is coming off a career year at 31 and so a regression is almost expected... 

 

...but too much emphasis on the 3 big nee additions.  I'm could also ask if Zadorov was a mistake to bring back?  Did we extend Mangiapane for too much?  Should we have dumped Lucic I stead of Monahan?  Etc, etc.

 

But all ties to performance.  He should be held mostly responsible for putting this team together... And if it all works, he should also take most of the credit.  Works both ways.

 

Of course he should be held responsible, i'm not suggesting he shouldn't. I'm simply suggesting if the team struggles on the ice ask why as it may not trace back to the GM. 

 

See and the way I look at it your questions right now have answers:

- I think they did try and project who plays with who because I know I've done it. You have complimentary skill sets up and down the lineup. On top of that the skill sets that the flames lost they've replaced in these new players and by adding Weegar they've added a skill set that they missed in the playoffs and was costly. 

- I have. I agree a Kadri regression is coming but that is ok because the Flames don't need Kadri to be an 80 point center. if he is fantastic, but in order to be a top end team they need Kadri to be what he has been for his career, not last year. If Kadri is a 50 point center but doing all of the details and attributes his known for (good two way play, good puck moving, moving puck to high danger areas) the Flames are a top end team (probably a contender)

- Why would it be a mistake to bring back Zadorov?

- Who cares if you paid Mang too much? You just retained a top end goal scorer who has been one for the last several years (including one of the best player drivers in the league)

- Dumping Lucic was not an option if they wanted to bring in Kadri and continue to look to improve the lineup. 

 

Again i'm not suggesting Trelving all i'm emphasizing is IMO process is key for a GM. If I look at the process of how he built this team i'm not really seeing where he went wrong. You have to make decision and put a plan in place based on info you have at the time, not try and guess what is going to happen. 

[travel_dude]

30 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

For chemistry for example, try to project where a player plays and with who... And see if the players fit will be good or not.  Don't want 3 shooters on one line for example.

 

For regression, look at age and past performance.  Huberdeau looks clutch but Kadri is coming off a career year at 31 and so a regression is almost expected... 

 

...but too much emphasis on the 3 big new additions.  One could also ask if Zadorov was a mistake to bring back?  Did we extend Mangiapane for too much?  Should we have dumped Lucic instead of Monahan?  Etc, etc.

 

But all ties to performance.  He should be held mostly responsible for putting this team together... And if it all works, he should also take most of the credit.  Works both ways.

 

We are talking about players that have played with a lot of others.  And performed.  There is some adjustment, but they get better.  Bennett becomes a 20+ goal scorer.  Nichuskin becomes a major threat.  Weegar played with a top player and made him better.  

 

Why do not not expect that to be the case here.  

[phoenix66]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

We are talking about players that have played with a lot of others.  And performed.  There is some adjustment, but they get better.  Bennett becomes a 20+ goal scorer.  Nichuskin becomes a major threat.  Weegar played with a top player and made him better.  

 

Why do not not expect that to be the case here.  

On the Flipside .. I hope not cuz I really like Sam, but I think Zito and the Florida fans are gonna find out next season that Huberdeau is why he got 20+ goals 

 

Another thing not being talked about..is how Tre said he had the deal with Kadri a week ago... That means he tried to buy some time to shop Monahan from a position of strength not weakness ..  in the end he ran out of time , but the fact he did that was smart management 

[sak22]

23 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

We are talking about players that have played with a lot of others.  And performed.  There is some adjustment, but they get better.  Bennett becomes a 20+ goal scorer.  Nichuskin becomes a major threat.  Weegar played with a top player and made him better.  

 

Why do not not expect that to be the case here.  

Yeah its because we lost Gaudreau who made two former top 10 picks play better, apparently people don't believe others can have the same effect, despite what they did elsewhere.

[rickross]

So to those who’ve been calling for Treliving to be fired….who else would you recommend? Is there a GM out there who could have done even better than BT if they were dealt the same hand?

[rickross]

34 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

On the Flipside .. I hope not cuz I really like Sam, but I think Zito and the Florida fans are gonna find out next season that Huberdeau is why he got 20+ goals 

 

Another thing not being talked about..is how Tre said he had the deal with Kadri a week ago... That means he tried to buy some time to shop Monahan from a position of strength not weakness ..  in the end he ran out of time , but the fact he did that was smart management 

BT has shown he’s learned along the way how to better manage the assets. We still have some wiggle room with the cap, not too mention he has the wherewithal to stack 10 D men…all on 1 way deals. We all know D men are valuable currency when it comes to trades. Curious to see which D man goes and which winger we likely get in return 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Of course he should be held responsible, i'm not suggesting he shouldn't. I'm simply suggesting if the team struggles on the ice ask why as it may not trace back to the GM. 

 

See and the way I look at it your questions right now have answers:

- I think they did try and project who plays with who because I know I've done it. You have complimentary skill sets up and down the lineup. On top of that the skill sets that the flames lost they've replaced in these new players and by adding Weegar they've added a skill set that they missed in the playoffs and was costly. 

- I have. I agree a Kadri regression is coming but that is ok because the Flames don't need Kadri to be an 80 point center. if he is fantastic, but in order to be a top end team they need Kadri to be what he has been for his career, not last year. If Kadri is a 50 point center but doing all of the details and attributes his known for (good two way play, good puck moving, moving puck to high danger areas) the Flames are a top end team (probably a contender)

- Why would it be a mistake to bring back Zadorov?

- Who cares if you paid Mang too much? You just retained a top end goal scorer who has been one for the last several years (including one of the best player drivers in the league)

- Dumping Lucic was not an option if they wanted to bring in Kadri and continue to look to improve the lineup. 

 

Again i'm not suggesting Trelving all i'm emphasizing is IMO process is key for a GM. If I look at the process of how he built this team i'm not really seeing where he went wrong. You have to make decision and put a plan in place based on info you have at the time, not try and guess what is going to happen. 

something we missed was another center getting Backlund numbers. Imagine 70-80points from Lindholm. Then 50-65 points in Kadri, then 45-50 points from Backlund. It doesn't always work that way, but the Flames lacked a constant threat from another center. By the looks of it, all three centers can play a shutdown role and so, DS doesn't need to necessarily care about line matching. 
 

the 3rd line c last year was Jarnkrok. He scored one goal... 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I'm with Cross on this one .. his job is to supply the players and the coaches job to get the most out of them..  even his 2 biggest "blunders" I still don't blame him for ..

Brouwer was never a top line player , but Gulutzen used him as one , and in every position.. ..  even James Neal.. as a top line winger he'd likely have gotten his 20+ goals ..but Lindholm took the job.... Then he pouted his way out of town . 

Even if Sutter leaves I think ownership is now open to the fact paying a good coach is worth it ..  what other coach wouid have had the stones to break up Johnny and Mony..   not to mention a good coach works with his gm to say " get me this" or "get this guy outta here" 

 

I will say this .. good or bad when he has set his mind on a player he has gotten them nearly every time .. he also hasn't been scared to kick a coach out the door if they aren't using what he's provided properly 

 

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Of course he should be held responsible, i'm not suggesting he shouldn't. I'm simply suggesting if the team struggles on the ice ask why as it may not trace back to the GM. 

 

See and the way I look at it your questions right now have answers:

- I think they did try and project who plays with who because I know I've done it. You have complimentary skill sets up and down the lineup. On top of that the skill sets that the flames lost they've replaced in these new players and by adding Weegar they've added a skill set that they missed in the playoffs and was costly. 

- I have. I agree a Kadri regression is coming but that is ok because the Flames don't need Kadri to be an 80 point center. if he is fantastic, but in order to be a top end team they need Kadri to be what he has been for his career, not last year. If Kadri is a 50 point center but doing all of the details and attributes his known for (good two way play, good puck moving, moving puck to high danger areas) the Flames are a top end team (probably a contender)

- Why would it be a mistake to bring back Zadorov?

- Who cares if you paid Mang too much? You just retained a top end goal scorer who has been one for the last several years (including one of the best player drivers in the league)

- Dumping Lucic was not an option if they wanted to bring in Kadri and continue to look to improve the lineup. 

 

Again i'm not suggesting Trelving all i'm emphasizing is IMO process is key for a GM. If I look at the process of how he built this team i'm not really seeing where he went wrong. You have to make decision and put a plan in place based on info you have at the time, not try and guess what is going to happen. 

 

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

We are talking about players that have played with a lot of others.  And performed.  There is some adjustment, but they get better.  Bennett becomes a 20+ goal scorer.  Nichuskin becomes a major threat.  Weegar played with a top player and made him better.  

 

Why do not not expect that to be the case here.  

 

All I've said is that he has done well on paper.   Now let's see how it translates on the ice.  That's all.  If you feel getting it done on paper is enough for an extension then sure, go ahead.  I'm just saying wait and see with an open mind that the season may go great or it may go badly.

[MP5029]

Is there a decent playmaker/Passer top 6 RW around the NHL that may be available?

 

you gotta think if BT could

land one via trade that would make for one heck of a 1-2-3 line punch…2with, possibly a decent 4th line…not accounting for Lucic…

 

Hubi/Lindy/Toffoil 

Manji/Kadri/RW playmaker

Pelletier/Backlund/Coleman 

Lucic/ Rus/Ruzi 

lewis

 

that 1RW playmaker would

be ideal for Manji and Kadri 

 

Lindy and Toffoil would definitely fit nice with Hubs

 

Backlund and Coleman are a frustrating pair and also can help shelter Pelletier some 

 

Lucic is well Lucic, but gotta play him, least he’s big and mean, Rus and Ruzi are too could be tough 4 line to play against 

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

 

All I've said is that he has done well on paper.   Now let's see how it translates on the ice.  That's all.  If you feel getting it done on paper is enough for an extension then sure, go ahead.  I'm just saying wait and see with an open mind that the season may go great or it may go badly.

I get that, but if the season goes badly why is that on him?

He's picked up one of the premier playmakers in the league.. a proven top tier shut down dman with offensive ability..(who performed well even in the absence of ekblad) ..and he did it with presumably no leverage ..  then he signs one of the more complete #2cs in the league where we've been lacking for years .. .. we have defensive depth coming out the wazoo while our neighbors to the north can't do better than Kulak in the top 4.. . Our top pair kicks on theirs and they make combined barely more than Nurse .. 

His job is to give the coach the best weapons to use on the ice .. the coach is tasked with getting the best out of them..    with the exception of maybe one more winger , I don't think he could have assembled a more complete team .

[Thebrewcrew]

I think the Flames will start a little slow. Lots of turnover with key people. Lots of home games to start, which is nice, but the Flames have some tough games to open the season.

 

While I think it may take some time for this team to get rolling, they're gonna be a good team. The expectation should be for this team to not only make the playoffs, but to compete for home ice/division crown. 

 

That's to say, Treliving has done a good job re-tooling his club in what's been a wild month. He's gonna be sticking around.

[phoenix66]

4 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Is there a decent playmaker/Passer top 6 RW around the NHL that may be available?

 

you gotta think if BT could

land one via trade that would make for one heck of a 1-2-3 line punch…2with, possibly a decent 4th line…not accounting for Lucic…

 

Hubi/Lindy/Toffoil 

Manji/Kadri/RW playmaker

Pelletier/Backlund/Coleman 

Lucic/ Rus/Ruzi 

lewis

 

that 1RW playmaker would

be ideal for Manji and Kadri 

 

Lindy and Toffoil would definitely fit nice with Hubs

 

Backlund and Coleman are a frustrating pair and also can help shelter Pelletier some 

 

Lucic is well Lucic, but gotta play him, least he’s big and mean, Rus and Ruzi are too could be tough 4 line to play against 

I see what you're thinking ..  Toronto has to move Nylander at some point but I'm Sutter would just kill him in his sleep..lol.. Kadri is actually more of a playmaker than a Finisher. I'd argue we need a finisher who also can set up. Kind of like Chucky..set up wasn't his best skill but he could do it ..

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I get that, but if the season goes badly why is that on him?

He's picked up one of the premier playmakers in the league.. a proven top tier shut down dman with offensive ability..(who performed well even in the absence of ekblad) ..and he did it with presumably no leverage ..  then he signs one of the more complete #2cs in the league where we've been lacking for years .. .. we have defensive depth coming out the wazoo while our neighbors to the north can't do better than Kulak in the top 4.. . Our top pair kicks on theirs and they make combined barely more than Nurse .. 

His job is to give the coach the best weapons to use on the ice .. the coach is tasked with getting the best out of them..    with the exception of maybe one more winger , I don't think he could have assembled a more complete team .

 

Because if the season goes greatly then it's also on him too.  If it goes badly then it proves he's assembled a team that only looks good on paper but not in practice.  I'm not even saying the moves look bad, then actually look great.  Let's see how it translates first.

[The_Tribal Chief]

Honestly if this goes Bad imo You shouldnt put the blame on BT cause he can only Do so much it is literally up to the players and the coaching staff to makr this work right