Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

 I have been extra crtical on BT but will have to give him a A+ for this one, whether they sign or not. You have to give kudo's to Chucky ,The club and player did the professional thing. Now would it be great that both players sign yes, there is an outside chance they don't. Based on the interviews he took the best option in front of him. If either sign, than its a win, if niether chose to sign, they are traded at deadline both will bring back 1st +++ thats a win ( bring on the burn it to the ground  crowd) however if they walk for free,  which based on whats happened.

 

We spoke of new culture and being a better place, this current episode has. Players can now not be afraid to approach the GM with there wishes and it can be handled in a professional manner, to appease both sides. Hubredeau was a Panther for awhile and never seen this coming, that's how you create bad cultures.

That is one thing Tre mentioned in his presser that I fully back him on.. Calgary has nothing to apologize for . We have a history of treating our players like people and with respect .

We don't fire our coaches on FaceTime. We don't dump our franchise faces and let them hear it first on Twitter. 

Even Gio was in the loop from the start of the season that being exposed might happen .and they were honest that the return to keep him was too high .

We've maintained Burke's rule that the entire month of December is  a no trade zone , not just the week the league mandates ..

We were one of the first franchises to demand our players be active in the community ..

I remember an interview with Perry Berezan, when he was traded to Minnesota (stars at that time )..first thing he asked was where he signs up for the community projects and they had no clue what he was talking about.. he just assumed every team did it ..

 

So while we may be mad that BT didn't press Johnny for deadline and gave him too much runway(me included)  , on the flipside admittedly that wouid have been very Un-Calgary like..  this time we got burned .. but Chucky returned the favor ..

Seemed like a total shot at Johnny in his interview when he said " I could have done it differently..kept it to myself and just signed the QO" ..

[bosn111]

The biggest thing I am giving kudos to Treliving for here is the options he has opened up with this trade. He knows what he would like to do ultimately, but knows that there are other things that can be done if plan A doesn’t work.

 

Ideally you lock up Huberdeau long term. He seems to be that long term, loyal player. Show him that loyalty and he will give that loyalty back to the team. NTC may even help bring down the cap hit. 7-8 years would work for me, he would be 36/37 at the end.

 

Weegar sign to a 5/6 year deal. This would take him to 33/34. This gives him another shot at an under 35 contract. I would be willing to do 7 to take him right to 35, but his agent may prefer the 5/6.

 

If extensions don’t happen this summer, then there are options in season as well. If they don’t seem to fit, they carry value in trade. If the Flames are failing, multiple pieces can be moved at TDL. Significant cap space will be open next season and can be used to retool again, or be used to take on contracts to create cap for other teams in exchange for draft picks.

 

Either way, there are options open that the team didn’t really have before and so I give Treliving credit for this at least. I will give even more credit if he is successful in completing one of these options and not just have 1 year flash in the pan and lose both Huberdeau and Weegar to UFA next summer.

 

Treliving staying with the Flames rests on this season. He really needs to make good in order to keep his job / get extended himself.

[rickross]

27 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

The biggest thing I am giving kudos to Treliving for here is the options he has opened up with this trade. He knows what he would like to do ultimately, but knows that there are other things that can be done if plan A doesn’t work.

 

Ideally you lock up Huberdeau long term. He seems to be that long term, loyal player. Show him that loyalty and he will give that loyalty back to the team. NTC may even help bring down the cap hit. 7-8 years would work for me, he would be 36/37 at the end.

 

Weegar sign to a 5/6 year deal. This would take him to 33/34. This gives him another shot at an under 35 contract. I would be willing to do 7 to take him right to 35, but his agent may prefer the 5/6.

 

If extensions don’t happen this summer, then there are options in season as well. If they don’t seem to fit, they carry value in trade. If the Flames are failing, multiple pieces can be moved at TDL. Significant cap space will be open next season and can be used to retool again, or be used to take on contracts to create cap for other teams in exchange for draft picks.

 

Either way, there are options open that the team didn’t really have before and so I give Treliving credit for this at least. I will give even more credit if he is successful in completing one of these options and not just have 1 year flash in the pan and lose both Huberdeau and Weegar to UFA next summer.

 

Treliving staying with the Flames rests on this season. He really needs to make good in order to keep his job / get extended himself.

BT did well, it’s easily the best trade for the Flames since we acquired Hanifin, Lindholm. With the great haul we got I wonder if BT pressed the fact that we’ve already helped FLA when we got fleeced by sending over Bennett who’s now a 20-30 goal scorer for them? Flames really are much more flexible now without being anchored by the $20M to Tkachuk and Gaudreau. If we can secure  a nice RW sniper somehow that would be ideal. If we magically acquire Barzal that would really fill some of that puck moving , play making ability we lost with Gaudreau. 

[crazyflames]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

That is one thing Tre mentioned in his presser that I fully back him on.. Calgary has nothing to apologize for . We have a history of treating our players like people and with respect .

We don't fire our coaches on FaceTime. We don't dump our franchise faces and let them hear it first on Twitter. 

Even Gio was in the loop from the start of the season that being exposed might happen .and they were honest that the return to keep him was too high .

We've maintained Burke's rule that the entire month of December is  a no trade zone , not just the week the league mandates ..

We were one of the first franchises to demand our players be active in the community ..

I remember an interview with Perry Berezan, when he was traded to Minnesota (stars at that time )..first thing he asked was where he signs up for the community projects and they had no clue what he was talking about.. he just assumed every team did it ..

 

So while we may be mad that BT didn't press Johnny for deadline and gave him too much runway(me included)  , on the flipside admittedly that wouid have been very Un-Calgary like..  this time we got burned .. but Chucky returned the favor ..

Seemed like a total shot at Johnny in his interview when he said " I could have done it differently..kept it to myself and just signed the QO" ..

On top of that you also have Sutter.  Players usually good under him first couple years, but gets tired after awhile.  

[robrob74]

9 hours ago, crazyflames said:

You really can't blame BT for Gaudreau and Tkachuk.  If you didn't see this coming then you have been in Calgary for too long.  Tkachuk wants to go somewhere like 3 years ago, and he is not that happy here.  As for Gaudreau, he just doesn't like the pressure from the fans here.  Maybe they made mistake by not naming Captain on this team.  There is no soul in this team right now, no leadership, and no commitment.  Look what Ottawa did for brother Tkachuk, they give him the responsibility.  Anyway, BT did the best he can do for Tkachuk trade.  It' not like what u think every team had good offers since everyone know you have no leverage.  Even we lose Huberdeau and Weegar at end of the season, I still think we get 1st round and 2nd round coming back given their friendly contract.  So that's Tkachuk for 2 1st round + 2nd round + prospect, not bad given so little team and so little time.  As for Gaudreau if he thinks team first, we could end up got something in return.  Thats why I think Tkachuk is pretty decent.  If you have no plan to be here, don't waste time here and trying to help the organization little bit.  As for BT, if he fail to sign Huberdeau by end of the season, he will be gone too.  He won't be doing the rebuild, 8 years is longer enough for him to be GM here.  So if I am him at this point, I go bold.  I make a trade to bring top 6 forward and I go all the way trying to win something this year.  It's do or die situation here, either way he is probably gone.  

i feel like Tkachuk became unhappy when the team didn't stick up for him on the Muzzin incident. May have not been the turning point.

 

i agree, it's been a few years on both. 
 

I do think the team should go rebuild mode and go for a top pick and sell the assets we do have, but I know owners and management and coaches don't want that and never will. It would have to be a horrible injury laden season. 

[MP5029]

I’m having trouble understanding this beyond US payers wanting to play in the US …

 

Or 

 

It’s an organizational issue internally, but this too doesn’t seems to make sense out side the possibility that the two (Tachuck and Gaudreau didn’t feel the team was gonna be competitive). Both spoke very highly and appreciated Cgy, to which I think they were very sincere about so it takes the internal club issues off the table as best I can guess. As for

competitiveness, well it’s kinda a crap

shoot, they had to realize by staying the team could attract higher end players so, I’m not 100% certain that it’s all

this, though both kinda alluded to it, more so about the fact their new teams are built younger (not in so many words)…this kinda makes senses with Tachuck but Gaudreau well he’s 30 himself, or soon to be so it’s not as much so.

 

if I’m a betting man, these things lead me to believe is more US players waning to play in the US after the whole COVID issue and cross border access to family this I do get, understand and can totally respect…but here too it don’t fit with Tachuck, where last year he helps lock his brother into a long term contact in Ott, the only sense to this side is that Ott is east and close to the family where as Cgy is just that little bit too far north west?! IDK 

 

anyway those are the only rational things I can think of to wrap my head around things with these two wanting out…I really don’t see the Muzzen issue being a factor, maybe a year or two ago but not since Sutter came in, he would never have allowed the Muzzen thing to go down without a team response, pretty sure Tachuck knows that all too well. The only other thing that I could think of based on time lines and all, is maybe it’s Sutter, though having career years and becoming legit superstars under his guidance, I

would think off set any minor personality issues, but that too I don’t get a sense of being an issue…it’s gotta be north west coast distance/ US…?

 

thoughts? 

 

[MP5029]

3 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

That is one thing Tre mentioned in his presser that I fully back him on.. Calgary has nothing to apologize for . We have a history of treating our players like people and with respect .

We don't fire our coaches on FaceTime. We don't dump our franchise faces and let them hear it first on Twitter. 

Even Gio was in the loop from the start of the season that being exposed might happen .and they were honest that the return to keep him was too high .

We've maintained Burke's rule that the entire month of December is  a no trade zone , not just the week the league mandates ..

We were one of the first franchises to demand our players be active in the community ..

I remember an interview with Perry Berezan, when he was traded to Minnesota (stars at that time )..first thing he asked was where he signs up for the community projects and they had no clue what he was talking about.. he just assumed every team did it ..

 

So while we may be mad that BT didn't press Johnny for deadline and gave him too much runway(me included)  , on the flipside admittedly that wouid have been very Un-Calgary like..  this time we got burned .. but Chucky returned the favor ..

Seemed like a total shot at Johnny in his interview when he said " I could have done it differently..kept it to myself and just signed the QO" ..

That last Part, weather a shot a Gaudreau or not is none the less a point of respect for Tachuck, just sucks he didn’t want to stay he legitimately seems to like Cgy, can’t help but feel it’s a north west distance issue more Than anything 

[phoenix66]

38 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

I’m having trouble understanding this beyond US payers wanting to play in the US …

 

Or 

 

It’s an organizational issue internally, but this too doesn’t seems to make sense out side the possibility that the two (Tachuck and Gaudreau didn’t feel the team was gonna be competitive). Both spoke very highly and appreciated Cgy, to which I think they were very sincere about so it takes the internal club issues off the table as best I can guess. As for

competitiveness, well it’s kinda a crap

shoot, they had to realize by staying the team could attract higher end players so, I’m not 100% certain that it’s all

this, though both kinda alluded to it, more so about the fact their new teams are built younger (not in so many words)…this kinda makes senses with Tachuck but Gaudreau well he’s 30 himself, or soon to be so it’s not as much so.

 

if I’m a betting man, these things lead me to believe is more US players waning to play in the US after the whole COVID issue and cross border access to family this I do get, understand and can totally respect…but here too it don’t fit with Tachuck, where last year he helps lock his brother into a long term contact in Ott, the only sense to this side is that Ott is east and close to the family where as Cgy is just that little bit too far north west?! IDK 

 

anyway those are the only rational things I can think of to wrap my head around things with these two wanting out…I really don’t see the Muzzen issue being a factor, maybe a year or two ago but not since Sutter came in, he would never have allowed the Muzzen thing to go down without a team response, pretty sure Tachuck knows that all too well. The only other thing that I could think of based on time lines and all, is maybe it’s Sutter, though having career years and becoming legit superstars under his guidance, I

would think off set any minor personality issues, but that too I don’t get a sense of being an issue…it’s gotta be north west coast distance/ US…?

 

thoughts? 

 

Could be .. but one common theme I saw in both Johnnys and Tkachuks interviews was " just a kid, never even been to Calgary before " ..so these are kids thrust to being pro's far away from family .I'm certain the homesickness kicks in..they have no sense of the culture and community coming in.. neither of them probabaly even Kew who Lanny McDonald was before they got here .. 

On the flip side you got a guy like Coleman who chose to be here .. vet, been around a while.  But he's a Texas kid.. married a Cowboys cheerleader with a dental practice ..  now she works here and he's appreciative of what Calgary is .. he went thr other way, lived and played on east coast. Then came west .. 

Not Saying it's wrong.. but there's a difference in attitude of growing the culture of the team compared to using the game to build the culture of your own life .. they're all very "me" decisions ..  tho again, kudos to Chucky for doing it the right way 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

i feel like Tkachuk became unhappy when the team didn't stick up for him on the Muzzin incident. May have not been the turning point.

 

i agree, it's been a few years on both. 
 

I do think the team should go rebuild mode and go for a top pick and sell the assets we do have, but I know owners and management and coaches don't want that and never will. It would have to be a horrible injury laden season. 

 

Some indecision on his part when he signed the last extension.  Gio was the voice of the team and MT may have been a little frustrated with all the talk and little action.  Stick flip, having to turtle.  He was willing to fight for his mates but until this year, nobody was sticking up for him.  Too little too late there.

 

Rebuild is fine if you get enough pieces early on that are the best in a decade.  Is anyone like that coming up in the next 3 years of drafting?  Bedard is 5'9".  He's the presumptive #1.  A rebuild starting this summer puts us 5 years in a competetive team building process, assuming we get the top picks right.  

 

 

[sak22]

I don't see this completely as a US/Canada thing, what it boils down to is lifestyle.  Calgary is for some but not for others.  If you are a 24 year old millionaire bachelor from the US I can see how Calgary might not be your cup of tea, the nightlife isn't great, we don't have many concerts and if you are an MLB/NBA/NFL fan you are SOL for watching other pro sports.  So everything will vary on a player to player basis, some do like having more options for stuff to do on their off nights, the flip side you maybe attract a few more family oriented players or those who love nature, but the lifestyle is a factor in big vs. small market and there is nothing the organization can do to fix that.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I don't see this completely as a US/Canada thing, what it boils down to is lifestyle.  Calgary is for some but not for others.  If you are a 24 year old millionaire bachelor from the US I can see how Calgary might not be your cup of tea, the nightlife isn't great, we don't have many concerts and if you are an MLB/NBA/NFL fan you are SOL for watching other pro sports.  So everything will vary on a player to player basis, some do like having more options for stuff to do on their off nights, the flip side you maybe attract a few more family oriented players or those who love nature, but the lifestyle is a factor in big vs. small market and there is nothing the organization can do to fix that.

 

[conundrumed]

I've gotta agree with sak. A young millionaire, on average, is likely wanting a cosmopolitan lifestyle.

[MP5029]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

Could be .. but one common theme I saw in both Johnnys and Tkachuks interviews was " just a kid, never even been to Calgary before " ..so these are kids thrust to being pro's far away from family .I'm certain the homesickness kicks in..they have no sense of the culture and community coming in.. neither of them probabaly even Kew who Lanny McDonald was before they got here .. 

On the flip side you got a guy like Coleman who chose to be here .. vet, been around a while.  But he's a Texas kid.. married a Cowboys cheerleader with a dental practice ..  now she works here and he's appreciative of what Calgary is .. he went thr other way, lived and played on east coast. Then came west .. 

Not Saying it's wrong.. but there's a difference in attitude of growing the culture of the team compared to using the game to build the culture of your own life .. they're all very "me" decisions ..  tho again, kudos to Chucky for doing it the right way 

Well the just a kid things is weak…

 

first they choose to be pro players, and

secondly, pretty sure pro hockey for a kid has nothing on military kids going to war…so if it’s that then I’d say it’s more of a silver spoon syndrome…which I doubt, now Covid and stuff that has changed things a lot for younger players so that I kinda get the “norm” where they could go pretty much any time except during the season was taken away from them for like 2 years 

 

but ultimately when you compare a millionaire 24 year old who plays a game for a living vs a guy who puts his life on the line, I kinda loose any sympathy for that reason 

[MP5029]

52 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Ok this is an extremely good point…though Gaudreau kinda goes against the family lifestyle…he did go to CBJ which is kinda Cgy of the US so with him I’m of the mindset distance North west to the east where his roots are…not so much a US Canada issue as the distance.

 

on the point that there is nothing Cgy can do about the lifestyle, well maybe that is a simple matter of learning more about the players (hobbies and stuff, hone in on that more) it’s a solid conversation but better screening of players can help Mitigate that issue…

 

i think that more than anything is why Coleman choose to come here, he kinda reminds me a bit of Glencross who fit in like a glove in the Cgy north west lifestyle…

 

anyway it’s a really good point and something the scouting staff should be more vigilant in screening for in prospects, current players young and old and drafts 

[jjgallow]

22 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I mean it's two players looking for deals.  They would have been offered less money in FLA due to cap.  

If they don't want to be here, find out sooner than later.

Huberdeau on the open market is probably worth more than Tkachuk.

5.9 for this season.

Weeger is "young" by D standards.

His offfense with limited PP time is pretty good.

RHS RD/LD.

 

But as I said, a trade is not the reason we got them.

At least not on the surface.

 

I'm not sold yet, there is a high degree of short term gamble in this trade as you know.   

 

For the sake of being positive I will say he has brought hope back, and if we don't look at term, easily won this trade.

 

If we don't look at term.

 

Here's my contribution to positvity:   I never liked Tkachuk and don't miss him at all.  He was a complete waste and an individual selfish player who shrivilled under pressure.  

 

Gaudreau was also way over-valued, despite his insane skill.   Not over-valued enough that losing him for nothing is okay, but...still.

[rocketdoctor]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I'm not sold yet, there is a high degree of short term gamble in this trade as you know.   

 

For the sake of being positive I will say he has brought hope back, and if we don't look at term, easily won this trade.

 

If we don't look at term.

 

Here's my contribution to positvity:   I never liked Tkachuk and don't miss him at all.  He was a complete waste and an individual selfish player who shrivilled under pressure.  

 

Gaudreau was also way over-valued, despite his insane skill.   Not over-valued enough that losing him for nothing is okay, but...still.

 

Dammit JJ I agree with you!!   It does  happen!

 

Yep bye bye Matthew.   Don't want to play here?  Then Foxtrot Oscar.  It will be fun booing you in future games.  

 

I've been advocating getting him gone for a while now and happy with the return.  I do thank him for giving BT the heads up but I am not sorry to see him go and I never thought he was Captain material. 

 

We win the trade hands down.   At least this trade gives BT half a year to decide what to do with the 2 new UFA's.    Sign them or flip them at trade deadline for a coupel oif 1sts.   We got a lot more than if MT had signed his QO.   

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I'm not sold yet, there is a high degree of short term gamble in this trade as you know.   

 

For the sake of being positive I will say he has brought hope back, and if we don't look at term, easily won this trade.

 

If we don't look at term.

 

Here's my contribution to positvity:   I never liked Tkachuk and don't miss him at all.  He was a complete waste and an individual selfish player who shrivilled under pressure.  

 

Gaudreau was also way over-valued, despite his insane skill.   Not over-valued enough that losing him for nothing is okay, but...still.

 

I'm not happy with losing a player like that for nuthin.

It riles me, but at the end of the day we might have regretted signng him even last year.

He could have just been a 80 point guy but career years occur when you are not worried about a deal.

The real stud on that line was the guy that let them play catch and score sometimes meaningless goals.

It shhould have been clear last summer, before the NTC kicked in, that he wasn't signing.

Not for what we should have paid him then.

Trade him and get something for him.

The playoffs have been obvious that we need more than just him and Tkachuk.

 

I didn't like Tkachuk when we drafted him, and was worried he would be a problem.

He was in many ways.

I enjoyed him being a thorn in the side of others, but the pre-stories before the rematches were dumb.

Always ended up being a nothing burger.

And we usually lost and really didn't show up.

 

I am okay in moving on.  

As long as we do something to lock these guys up.

I don't care about the term.

7 years and he should still be something.

GIve him the $$ up front.

Weeger is even less of a concern to me.

We don't have any D making more than $5M.

We don't have a true number 1.

 

[MP5029]

Mmm giving the recent events this year I have been giving some thought to GM evaluation topic…

 

First let me start off with I’m not suggesting anyone be fired or hired here, just some personality and skill sets that may or may not be lacking in the management core of Cgy…

 

Second, there are very few GM’s that I would say are great GMs and are really good at everything…Oddly enough two who stick out them most are former players (and let me be very clear, I’m eating crow by saying this cause I had been very much against former players as GM’s but I was very wrong) and those two are Yzerman and Sackic…who oddly were   amazing long time team captains and from the Iggy era too…just saying. 
 

Anyways, as far as BT goes, when you consider the two huge trades he had pulled off Lindholm and Hanifin and now this one, they were both spun from a problem that needed to be fixed, hence forth I’d suggest BT is an amazing problem fixer style GM…But on the same note they were problems that he caused by how he built and constructed contracts and/or the rout he chose to deal with those renewals..not entirely his fault but yes to some degree he lacked forethought, or I tend to think not so much that as he’s not very good a loss/risk mitigation.  Part of that has to do with who he is, which is not a bad thing as it has proved very good with contract negotiations etc…but it also leaves him open to issues like this…where when you weigh that agains guys like Sackic or Yzerman they don’t leave that doo open…

 

so I’m of the mind set, BT is a really good negotiator and problem fixer but he needs an assistant GM less like him…to

which I love Conroy and all but he’s very much like BT and also lacks that risk mitigation factor, yes I’m suggesting Iggy may be an ideal AGM for this, however he may not be interested and there are probably guys around that are…but ultimately I’m thinking the management team seems to really lack this component…or has until the circumstances like with Tachuck and Gaudreau kinda forced them

to consider it…anyway maybe BT has learned this but, personally if I’m ownership I would not risk it and definitely bring in an AGM who has this skill set. 
 

I With BT’s negotiation and problem fixing ability being at an elite level,

I can’t any sense in not keeping him, but rather help him out and bring in a guy that helps strengthen and area he’s not proven to be really great at.

[conundrumed]

17 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

Dammit JJ I agree with you!!   It does  happen!

 

Yep bye bye Matthew.   Don't want to play here?  Then Foxtrot Oscar.  It will be fun booing you in future games.  

 

I've been advocating getting him gone for a while now and happy with the return.  I do thank him for giving BT the heads up but I am not sorry to see him go and I never thought he was Captain material. 

 

We win the trade hands down.   At least this trade gives BT half a year to decide what to do with the 2 new UFA's.    Sign them or flip them at trade deadline for a coupel oif 1sts.   We got a lot more than if MT had signed his QO.   

lol

 

[sak22]

45 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Mmm giving the recent events this year I have been giving some thought to GM evaluation topic…

 

First let me start off with I’m not suggesting anyone be fired or hired here, just some personality and skill sets that may or may not be lacking in the management core of Cgy…

 

Second, there are very few GM’s that I would say are great GMs and are really good at everything…Oddly enough two who stick out them most are former players (and let me be very clear, I’m eating crow by saying this cause I had been very much against former players as GM’s but I was very wrong) and those two are Yzerman and Sackic…who oddly were   amazing long time team captains and from the Iggy era too…just saying. 
 

Anyways, as far as BT goes, when you consider the two huge trades he had pulled off Lindholm and Hanifin and now this one, they were both spun from a problem that needed to be fixed, hence forth I’d suggest BT is an amazing problem fixer style GM…But on the same note they were problems that he caused by how he built and constructed contracts and/or the rout he chose to deal with those renewals..not entirely his fault but yes to some degree he lacked forethought, or I tend to think not so much that as he’s not very good a loss/risk mitigation.  Part of that has to do with who he is, which is not a bad thing as it has proved very good with contract negotiations etc…but it also leaves him open to issues like this…where when you weigh that agains guys like Sackic or Yzerman they don’t leave that doo open…

 

so I’m of the mind set, BT is a really good negotiator and problem fixer but he needs an assistant GM less like him…to

which I love Conroy and all but he’s very much like BT and also lacks that risk mitigation factor, yes I’m suggesting Iggy may be an ideal AGM for this, however he may not be interested and there are probably guys around that are…but ultimately I’m thinking the management team seems to really lack this component…or has until the circumstances like with Tachuck and Gaudreau kinda forced them

to consider it…anyway maybe BT has learned this but, personally if I’m ownership I would not risk it and definitely bring in an AGM who has this skill set. 
 

I With BT’s negotiation and problem fixing ability being at an elite level,

I can’t any sense in not keeping him, but rather help him out and bring in a guy that helps strengthen and area he’s not proven to be really great at.

Comparing Sakic and Yzerman I don't get, I don't want to say they don't deserve the credit they get.  Yzerman inherited Stamkos and Hedman, the best BT inherited Monahan and Gaudreau as the best young players, not even close to the same level of situation to begin a job, but Yzerman still had to deal with an unhappy prospect and had his captain wait till he could hear from other teams before avoiding free agency and had a Kucherov holdout. 

 

Sakic won a very good lottery and lost a good lottery to get one elite player and a potential generational player.  He still had to deal with unhappy players O'Reilly and Duchene, got lucky that Duchene's new team absolutely tanked, but he had also had Rantanen hold out and come to camp late, and had Landsekog wait until the last minute to sign back, which then lost Grubbauer for nothing meaning they had to spend assets to acquire a starting goalie (who was also lost for nothing).  Nothing that will have an immediate impact, but it could down the road.

 

BT hasn't had the elite players come to him like those 2, he's found very good players that he has tried to complement with other very good players, but has never been in position to get the elite players because they are: 1) hard to draft if you don't bottom out. 2) expensive to acquire in trades (often block trades here if they have protection), 3)  don't usually hit UFA and if they do have no desire to come here.

[MP5029]

2 hours ago, sak22 said:

Comparing Sakic and Yzerman I don't get, I don't want to say they don't deserve the credit they get.  Yzerman inherited Stamkos and Hedman, the best BT inherited Monahan and Gaudreau as the best young players, not even close to the same level of situation to begin a job, but Yzerman still had to deal with an unhappy prospect and had his captain wait till he could hear from other teams before avoiding free agency and had a Kucherov holdout. 

 

Sakic won a very good lottery and lost a good lottery to get one elite player and a potential generational player.  He still had to deal with unhappy players O'Reilly and Duchene, got lucky that Duchene's new team absolutely tanked, but he had also had Rantanen hold out and come to camp late, and had Landsekog wait until the last minute to sign back, which then lost Grubbauer for nothing meaning they had to spend assets to acquire a starting goalie (who was also lost for nothing).  Nothing that will have an immediate impact, but it could down the road.

 

BT hasn't had the elite players come to him like those 2, he's found very good players that he has tried to complement with other very good players, but has never been in position to get the elite players because they are: 1) hard to draft if you don't bottom out. 2) expensive to acquire in trades (often block trades here if they have protection), 3)  don't usually hit UFA and if they do have no desire to come here.

I’d have to disagree…

 

Gaudreau clearly and elite player

Tachuck is an elite “unicorn” player

Monahan, if not for injuries is/was elite 

 

I’d even go so far to say Manji is boarder line elite 

 

and Lindholm is a underrated elite 

 

I’d say he’s had his fair share of elite player…though agreed some GM’s have had better luck in terms of having a generational player which Cgy just has never had…as much as I love Iggy and he was as high end elite as you can get, he too was not quite a generational player, kinda like Tachuck…he was an elite “unicorn” in the NHL…which IMO is just a hair under the generational players 

[cross16]

I see no reason to get concerned yet around the org or think that there is a commonality around why Tkachuk and Gaudreau left. All smart market clubs have this challenge and all Canadian small market clubs have this challenge too. I get the idea is to blow this up because it happens twice in one offseason, but I think the rationale has always been here. Adam Fox, Tim Erixon, Chris Drury were all the same and it's commonly reported and understood that Calgary is on a a lot of NTCs. James Neal didn't want to come here, the Flames had to give him an overpriced deal to get him. 

 

I think COVID is a factor right now for sure and I think had it not been for COVID there is a good chance Johnny is still a Flame so that's definety a situation they have to manage. I think the arena's and facility are a fairly big deal and certainly not something that helps the Flames. 

 

but I mean Tkachuk has been pretty honest he took the 3 year deal he did on purpose so he really wasn't convinced from day 1. At the end of the day this is the modern day athlete. They've grown up in a culture where they have leverage know and I think they are starting to use it. You have player sin the NBA creating super teams, players in the NFL almost playing GM for their team, it's not unique to the NHL. 

 

So I'm not sure the Flames have anything to "fix" (outside the arena) but I do think they have to better understand their asset management because I think this is going to happen more and more. 

[jjgallow]

12 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I see no reason to get concerned yet around the org or think that there is a commonality around why Tkachuk and Gaudreau left. All smart market clubs have this challenge and all Canadian small market clubs have this challenge too. I get the idea is to blow this up because it happens twice in one offseason, but I think the rationale has always been here. Adam Fox, Tim Erixon, Chris Drury were all the same and it's commonly reported and understood that Calgary is on a a lot of NTCs. James Neal didn't want to come here, the Flames had to give him an overpriced deal to get him. 

 

I think COVID is a factor right now for sure and I think had it not been for COVID there is a good chance Johnny is still a Flame so that's definety a situation they have to manage. I think the arena's and facility are a fairly big deal and certainly not something that helps the Flames. 

 

but I mean Tkachuk has been pretty honest he took the 3 year deal he did on purpose so he really wasn't convinced from day 1. At the end of the day this is the modern day athlete. They've grown up in a culture where they have leverage know and I think they are starting to use it. You have player sin the NBA creating super teams, players in the NFL almost playing GM for their team, it's not unique to the NHL. 

 

So I'm not sure the Flames have anything to "fix" (outside the arena) but I do think they have to better understand their asset management because I think this is going to happen more and more. 

 

On the arena:  I have absolutely no idea how this could have any affect on player retention whatsoever in a cap market, imho the owners and their group just keep pedalling this to us, but I don't even see the faintest logic in it.  These players aren't looking to host garth brooks concerts as side gigs.  Plus the Saddledome is honestly better than what was being proposed, aesthetically.

 

On your last sentence:   This I agree with and it's the one that matters.      We all understand those first 3 paragraphs of reasoning and explanation of the world that is, and I totally get it, but at the end of the day the Flames have to be better.  Even this Tkachuk trade does not come close to making up the loss this offseason, or the many offseasons before where we lost talent that we held onto too long.

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think COVID is a factor right now for sure and I think had it not been for COVID there is a good chance Johnny is still a Flame so that's definety a situation they have to manage. I think the arena's and facility are a fairly big deal and certainly not something that helps the Flames. 

 

 

For sure.  He was upset about the lockdown when his grandfather died and about not seeing family for a long time.  This fall is just as unknown as the North division year.  Although Bettman won't be happy to have another limited play season, he doesn't control the government.  

 

Until we get the arena situation sorted out, we need to be competitive in play to attract UFA's or keep the ones we have. 

[travel_dude]

21 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

On the arena:  I have absolutely no idea how this could have any affect on player retention whatsoever in a cap market, imho the owners and their group just keep pedalling this to us, but I don't even see the faintest logic in it.  These players aren't looking to host garth brooks concerts as side gigs.  Plus the Saddledome is honestly better than what was being proposed, aesthetically.

 

Do you remember when we got a new guy in and he had to sit next to a stall on a folding chair?

As far as the arena, do you enjoy walking up to the PL seats?

The old arena in Arizona was 10x better.

 

The Dome is an icon, but few teams build icons anymore.

The ice has been bad for years it seems.

EDM got away with it because they had carte blanche and city money to spend.

 

I think a lot of what Cross was talking about though was not having modern training facilities.