Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[conundrumed]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

It's a pretty huge difference and this is coming from someone who advocated hard for a rebuild in that era. Once they traded Phaneuf and got no young impact players/prospects back in the deal I was out but even still it's not hard to see the difference. Post Phaneuf trade here are the Flames who were under the age of 29 at the end of 09/10:

Rene Bourque, Curtis Glencross, Nigel Dawes, Gio, JBow, Moss, Stajan, Ian White, Backs, Adam Pardy Fredrik Sjostrom, Chris Higgins.

That is it. 1 top 6 forward 2 top 4 dman (1 of whom was a terrible fit with the coach) and the rest depth. In the system at the time was the likes of Bouma, Brodie, Baertschi, Irving, Nemisz, Hanowski, Tyler Wotherspoon etc. 

Compare that to now:

Tkachuk, Lindholm, Mangiapange, Dube, Hanifin, Andersson, Zadorov, Kylington. I mean this alone is more impressive that what they were working with in 09/10 but then consider the prospects:

Valimaki, Connor Mackey, AHL Rookie of the year, AHL goalie of the year, Rory Kerins, Connor Zary, Phillips, Ruzicka. 

 

It really is night and day. 

 

Now I get it that people are looking at the Flames without Gaudreau and seeing a bleak future in terms of winning a cup. I get it and it's a fair argument and if your angle is cup or bust and you want to pull it all apart that is fair, there is an argument to be made and heard there. I don't think it's going to happen so i'm not sure there is value in putting it in every thread but I get the argument behind it. 

But I also think we need to see the other side to this. When you look at that core, it's age, it's contract situation, and the prospects coming it's not hard to see a competitive team there. Sure it's likely a team that will nip into the playoffs, maybe win a round or 2 here and there but it's a competitive team and who knows what can happen. Maybe you get lucky and a prospect like Kerins winds up a Point, maybe a FA hits the market or a trade potential. Yes i get that relies on luck, but so does pulling your team apart and tanking and I think we can and should acknowledge there are pros and cons to both sides and to both sides. 

 

That's where this is completely different for me. At the end of the Iginla era there was no plan you could show that had the Flames being competitive. This go around I think that's very different. Yes some of this analysis changes if Tkachuk isn't signed but Tkachuk isn't going to leave for nothing so i'm not sure it changes it drastically. 

 

So i'm not sure what "reality" there is to accept. Accept that this core won't win a cup? OK but what guarantees do you have the next one will?

 

Quoted for awesomeness. Thanks cross, as usual. I wish I could be so well thought out vs reactionary.

You keep things balanced in our summer of discontent. Pretty sure last season began with a lot of malcontent fans and we won our division.

There's always reason for optimism. Enjoyed how you spelt out the roster/prospect differences,

We still have a good roster/decent prospect pool.

At least let Detroit finish their rebuild first, I don't need both of my teams doing it at the same time.lol

[phoenix66]

8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Just going to focus on this part here.  Every team that wins (maybe one or two anomolies) has luck riding on it.  STL got a hot goalie at the right times, after almosy selling off.  COL got Makar and managed to get rid of Barrie for a pleyer that helped them, plus puick up Nichushkin for a song.  As well as making a few timely additions at TDL.  How many times did they get the goalie they thought was it?  Just happened to get one to get them to the finals and it was less critical then.  TBL won two cups in qhat could only be described as abnormal seasons.  Managed to have Kucherov on the bench for the first one until the playoffs.  

 

My point is that teams that win these days have to have something go extremely right.  Saros being injured just before the playoffs killed any chance they had of beating or slowing down COL.  The Flames losing a top 4D and Zaddy breaking his ribs, among other things.  We looked like crap against EDM, but should have had their number.  

 

There are things to be said, like Johnny was never going to be able to show the heart that a player like Point or Kadri showed.  He's an amazing talent, but he is a 180 foot player.  Doesn't attack the net directly and doesn't defent the last 10 feet.    

This is my point exactly..  the team was built right but the chips didn't fall . We went the whole season almost without injury and we got hit in critical spots when it mattered .. not sure anybody was beating Colorado ..but I don't think we would have gotten swept ..  even with that I personally felt if that goal had counted and we had forced game 7 we still wouid have won game 7..  that's how close and easy it can swing 

[jjgallow]

 

I think there is some confusion here in some of the posts that since we have some young players, we should not go into a rebuild.

 

IMHO, rebuilds are better and more successful when you start them out with some younger players.    Nobody wants to do a rebuild from 0, and that was one of the problems with our last rebuild.

 

 

Secondly, to compare our current younger players with those of the last rebuild, we must remember hindsight.    In the last rebuild, only one of our younger players (prior to rebuild) turned into an impact player.  Giordano.

 

This time, I would say that none of our younger players project as impact players.   Maybe one will surprise.    Most of our younger players are projected for supporting roles.  Also most will dissapoint, as is always the case and was the case last time.    

 

So hindsight must be considered (not everyone turned out then, not everyone will turn out now), quality must be considered (impact players or just supporting cast?), and ultimately the premise that having some young players will prevent a rebuild, should be reconsidered.

[cross16]

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

You're going to have to bear with us for another couple weeks until this Tkachuk situation is resolved.  The tear it down argument makes way too much sense... And by that I mean trade everyone over 24-years-old.  We can keep our rookies and young kids.

 

And to be fair I have no problem with your logic or rationale so I don't intend to sound critical or that i'm insulting. I have time for the argument because I do get the why behind it for most people but mostly I just don't believe this ownership group is going to ok that and in fairness to them most ownership groups wouldn't either. 

 

If I had a choice I'd probably go with a tear down rebuild but at the same time I just acknowledge their are arguments on both sides. 

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

And to be fair I have no problem with your logic or rationale so I don't mean to criticize. I have time for the argument because I do get the why behind it for most people but mostly I just don't believe this ownership group is going to ok that and in fairness to them most ownership groups wouldn't either. 

 

If I had a choice I'd probably go with a tear down rebuild but at the same time I just acknowledge their are arguments on both sides. 

I'm always of the belief you can have both. I think Edmonton screwed up the same way young guns did .. all these kids but they don't know how to win . It becomes ok to lose ..

For example .if we have to trade Matty..get a good player for now and prospects and picks to go with it .. we have great players on great contracts .. Hanifin, Lindholm, etc.. i wouldn't be moving them until the time comes and it seems necessary .but get the kids going in the meantime ..wolf is a year away from being a backup.. Pelletier ..zary..etc .. you can strive to be a playoff team without sacrificing your future .. under gm Sutter we had no pipeline ..now we're building one ..that's the first biggest step..  the goaltending thread used to be the biggest thread here now it's in mothballs because we actually have some depth and prospects there .. 

I say keep the pipeline moving but you don't have to sacrifice at least being a playoff team in the meantime .. it shouid never be acceptable for that not to be the goal 

[cross16]

12 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I'm always of the belief you can have both. I think Edmonton screwed up the same way young guns did .. all these kids but they don't know how to win . It becomes ok to lose ..

For example .if we have to trade Matty..get a good player for now and prospects and picks to go with it .. we have great players on great contracts .. Hanifin, Lindholm, etc.. i wouldn't be moving them until the time comes and it seems necessary .but get the kids going in the meantime ..wolf is a year away from being a backup.. Pelletier ..zary..etc .. you can strive to be a playoff team without sacrificing your future .. under gm Sutter we had no pipeline ..now we're building one ..that's the first biggest step..  the goaltending thread used to be the biggest thread here now it's in mothballs because we actually have some depth and prospects there .. 

I say keep the pipeline moving but you don't have to sacrifice at least being a playoff team in the meantime .. it shouid never be acceptable for that not to be the goal 

 

This can be true in practice but it make it harder. I am of the belief that in order to win a cup you need elite/star talent above all else. It is very difficult, and becoming even more so, to find that type of talent outside of the lottery in the draft. 

[tmac70]

One thing that gets lost in this is why are these guys wanting to leave and some stay? Coleman decided to sign here, Mags is interested in statying, yet JG and now possibly MT are wanting out, why.  I don't buy the small market rink,as JG went to a smaller market and is now a local legend for picking CLB with the fans, closer to family I can see as he left a boat load on the table. Now with MT why are they wanting to leave? You can't say coach as Sutter pretty much made them this year, I don't buy the rink or smaller center. Its well known that EDM is not a first choice but with Mc Baby it helps. For me you have to figure out why we can't attract players. 

[phoenix66]

3 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

One thing that gets lost in this is why are these guys wanting to leave and some stay? Coleman decided to sign here, Mags is interested in statying, yet JG and now possibly MT are wanting out, why.  I don't buy the small market rink,as JG went to a smaller market and is now a local legend for picking CLB with the fans, closer to family I can see as he left a boat load on the table. Now with MT why are they wanting to leave? You can't say coach as Sutter pretty much made them this year, I don't buy the rink or smaller center. Its well known that EDM is not a first choice but with Mc Baby it helps. For me you have to figure out why we can't attract players. 

I hate to stereotype.. but its the generation .. It's about "me". There's no brand loyalty . look at Dubois, he's barely in the league and dictating where he wants to play . If its not money , its location .. its being recognized, or not being recognized.. Johnny to me at least earned the right , at the end of the day i only had an issue with how it went down .

We don't know Matthew wants out , that remains to be seen .. all the flames have done is set up some deadlines so they don't get shafted should that be the case.. i personally dont believe he wants out .. but he does want to be paid .. which is fair 

[cross16]

I mean this isn't a new problem. Chris Drury, Adam Fox, Tim Erixon all wanted out and that stretch's back over sometime. This may feel like a new problem but i'm not really sure it is, nor do I think it's a problem that only the Flames face. Outside of Toronto this happens pretty regularly to all Canadian teams. It's pretty well known that a lot of US players prefer playing close to home rather than play in Canada so I think a lot of this is outside the Flames control. 

 

I think the arena and the facilities are a major factor and the Flames really need to figure that out but outside of that i'm skeptical there is an organizational problem here that is leading to this. 

 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

One thing that gets lost in this is why are these guys wanting to leave and some stay? Coleman decided to sign here, Mags is interested in statying, yet JG and now possibly MT are wanting out, why.  I don't buy the small market rink,as JG went to a smaller market and is now a local legend for picking CLB with the fans, closer to family I can see as he left a boat load on the table. Now with MT why are they wanting to leave? You can't say coach as Sutter pretty much made them this year, I don't buy the rink or smaller center. Its well known that EDM is not a first choice but with Mc Baby it helps. For me you have to figure out why we can't attract players. 

 

I do think Sutter is a playoff coach and we don't have playoff players, I suspect he is a factor, but not the biggest or only factor.   And I think if you have a player that won't play for Sutter, there's a high chance you have the wrong player.

 

Players leaving Alberta....   we had an excuse until the two best players in the game:  McAdvid and Makar, both either play here willingly now, or grew up here and were Flames fans.

 

One of them, we ended our rebuild too soon to get.   The other was available and under-rated but we didn't pursue.

 

IMHO it goes back to the GM

 

We know they can be kept and acquired.  We just haven't done either.

[travel_dude]

37 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I mean this isn't a new problem. Chris Drury, Adam Fox, Tim Erixon all wanted out and that stretch's back over sometime. This may feel like a new problem but i'm not really sure it is, nor do I think it's a problem that only the Flames face. Outside of Toronto this happens pretty regularly to all Canadian teams. It's pretty well known that a lot of US players prefer playing close to home rather than play in Canada so I think a lot of this is outside the Flames control. 

 

I think the arena and the facilities are a major factor and the Flames really need to figure that out but outside of that i'm skeptical there is an organizational problem here that is leading to this. 

 

 

Fox and Erixon wanted to play in NY, so that's just a factor of not being NY.  Gaudreau is another issue and that happened somewhere in the last two years.  It's easy to use family as the excuse.  And it may be 90% of the reason, but it's just his wife didn't want to be in Calgary.  Canada is still somewhat isolated from the US.  We have changing entry requirements.  We had been blocked from non Canadians from entering the country.  The risk of that coming back is still there.  No this isn't a COVID rant.  We have to remember that some American born players do not want to live their lives in Canada.  

 

We have to get the arena resolved.  It's outdated.  How much it plays into the players decisions isn't really known, but it's nothing to be proud of.  

[redfire11]

Maybe if we started focusing more on local talent at the draft like montreal with french speaking players.we could keep them near family.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

One of them, we ended our rebuild too soon to get.   The other was available and under-rated but we didn't pursue.

 

IMHO it goes back to the GM

 

We know they can be kept and acquired.  We just haven't done either.

 

We picked 16th in the Makar draft.  No way we were getting 4th overall.  

[jjgallow]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

We picked 16th in the Makar draft.  No way we were getting 4th overall.  

 

The trades started at 7th overall, I don't see why they couldn't have started at 2/3/4 since very few were excited about that draft.   We sure give ours up easily lol.

 

Gaudreau would have fetched a heck of a lot more, not saying this was the only solution but since he's a topic.

 

More importantly though, we rushed our rebuild.   We got Tkachuk the year before, nobody the year before that because we were already selling draft picks to "go for it".

 

Had we just stayed the course we would have been within firing distance of some much, much better players in the draft.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I hate to stereotype.. but its the generation .. It's about "me". There's no brand loyalty . look at Dubois, he's barely in the league and dictating where he wants to play . If its not money , its location .. its being recognized, or not being recognized.. Johnny to me at least earned the right , at the end of the day i only had an issue with how it went down .

We don't know Matthew wants out , that remains to be seen .. all the flames have done is set up some deadlines so they don't get shafted should that be the case.. i personally dont believe he wants out .. but he does want to be paid .. which is fair 

 

i look at what happened to the NBA and wonder why they need GM's. The players dictate who is going where. But players are like, my legacy and championship so ask buddies that give them best chances.... hope it never gets that way in the NHL. Though it does from time to time but rare. 
 

i just think BT should've known Johnny or Tkachuk wanted out awhile ago. 
 

hockey is too much about saying the right thing. Have real conversations. 

[sak22]

2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

The trades started at 7th overall, I don't see why they couldn't have started at 2/3/4 since very few were excited about that draft.   We sure give ours up easily lol.

 

Gaudreau would have fetched a heck of a lot more, not saying this was the only solution but since he's a topic.

 

More importantly though, we rushed our rebuild.   We got Tkachuk the year before, nobody the year before that because we were already selling draft picks to "go for it".

 

Had we just stayed the course we would have been within firing distance of some much, much better players in the draft.

Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapane = nobody

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapane = nobody

 

i don't think Jig is saying we have bad players and Andersson is a' excellent #3 and a very good #2D. Mangiapane is very good, but not a player who can control a game. I did expect more from him in the playoffs. 
 

Kyl is budding. He might remain a #4 but so far is a #5D.

[jjgallow]

9 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapane = nobody

 

Never said that, never said that at all.  And wasn't my point.

 

But if you want something to that affect, I'd trade any of them, possibly all of them for a young Giordano like we had last time.  As an example.

[sak22]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

i don't think Jig is saying we have bad players and Andersson is a' excellent #3 and a very good #2D. Mangiapane is very good, but not a player who can control a game. I did expect more from him in the playoffs. 
 

Kyl is budding. He might remain a #4 but so far is a #5D.

I'd say Andersson right now is the 2nd best dman from that draft, so IMO equivalent to a top 15 pick right now.  Mangiapane is outperforming several first rounders from that year.  If you come away from a draft with 3 NHLers its a successful draft period, add in the first is now equivalent to a 40 goal Selke runner up C and 48 point Dman, who are still well under 30.  Great draft but people still need to criticize it and I just don't get it.

[travel_dude]

41 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

The trades started at 7th overall, I don't see why they couldn't have started at 2/3/4 since very few were excited about that draft.   We sure give ours up easily lol.

 

Gaudreau would have fetched a heck of a lot more, not saying this was the only solution but since he's a topic.

 

More importantly though, we rushed our rebuild.   We got Tkachuk the year before, nobody the year before that because we were already selling draft picks to "go for it".

 

Had we just stayed the course we would have been within firing distance of some much, much better players in the draft.

 

Tkachuk, Dube and Fox in 2016.  Check.

Hamilton traded for in 2016.  Ras, Kyl and Mange in 2016.  Check.

Bennett in 2014.  Check.  That was Burke's draft.

 

We hadn't solved the goalie issue, so it was not a complete rebuild.

We got Ortio.  Check.

Failed to address the problem with goaltending.  Check.

Doesn't always come through a rebuild.

[jjgallow]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Tkachuk, Dube and Fox in 2016.  Check.

Hamilton traded for in 2016.  Ras, Kyl and Mange in 2016.  Check.

Bennett in 2014.  Check.  That was Burke's draft.

 

We hadn't solved the goalie issue, so it was not a complete rebuild.

We got Ortio.  Check.

Failed to address the problem with goaltending.  Check.

Doesn't always come through a rebuild.

 

I'm not following, to me everything mentioned above came through the rebuild.

 

The only ones that didn't, are actually the two most important.   Gio and Iginla.

 

Gio undrafted miracle,

 

Iginla, well he was actually the start if the previous previous rebuild.

 

We traded our top player for a high pick (Iginla).

 

To answer your question about if it was feasible to trade for Makar.

[JTech780]

I think ownership has to hurry up and figure out the stadium situation, if Treliving or any GM here has any hope of bringing in and keeping top talent regardless if they are American. 
 

Right now our facilities just aren’t up to par and that makes a big difference.

 

The issue with COVID and the border I think is playing a huge role in all of this as well. That is outside of the Treliving’s hands.

 

I just think Canadian teams and especially small market Canadian teams have to work harder to keep talent around. I don’t think Calgary ownership is working hard enough to make that happen.

[travel_dude]

17 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I'm not following, to me everything mentioned above came through the rebuild.

 

The only ones that didn't, are actually the two most important.   Gio and Iginla.

 

Gio undrafted miracle,

 

Iginla, well he was actually the start if the previous previous rebuild.

 

We traded our top player for a high pick (Iginla).

 

To answer your question about if it was feasible to trade for Makar.

 

Feasible in what way?  We didn't have a high draft pick.

He was ranked 9th best NA skater.

Who were we trading to get to 4th overall?

That's the question.

Saying we could have is just hindsight.

We trading Gaudreau coming out of the rebuild?

Or staying in the rebuild and trading Dougie?

[travel_dude]

20 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I think ownership has to hurry up and figure out the stadium situation, if Treliving or any GM here has any hope of bringing in and keeping top talent regardless if they are American. 
 

Right now our facilities just aren’t up to par and that makes a big difference.

 

The issue with COVID and the border I think is playing a huge role in all of this as well. That is outside of the Treliving’s hands.

 

I just think Canadian teams and especially small market Canadian teams have to work harder to keep talent around. I don’t think Calgary ownership is working hard enough to make that happen.

 

The arena is a big thing.  No desire to resolve it.

The border is something else.

 

But I agree we have to get moving.  The team selected arbitration plays it out too long.

Other fish to fry.

Not that we have missed out on that many top players but we have missed a few good ones.

And we are not focused on trades, or so it seems.

Walk and chew gum.

 

Showing the players that we are doing things helps in their decision making.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Feasible in what way?  We didn't have a high draft pick.

 

Feasible in response to your comment:

 

"No way we were getting 4th overall. "

 

I'm just saying we've done this before.  And it worked out pretty well.  It's not that uncommon.

 

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

He was ranked 9th best NA skater.

Who were we trading to get to 4th overall?

That's the question.

Saying we could have is just hindsight.

 

Yes, it is in hindsight,  and saying it was impossible is equally problematic.

 

I can say with confidence we should have traded Gaudreau, hindsight or not.

 

Could I have nailed it down to Makar?   Not 100% sure anyone realized how good he was but he sure made sense coming out of Calgary.  That was the point.  If there is any team in the NHL who has the least excuse for missing Makar, it's us.

 

Let's be real, it had to be said.  Everybody be like "how do we keep talent in Calgary", meanwhile best talent in NHL was raised here as a Flames fan.  Next best playing up north.

 

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

We trading Gaudreau coming out of the rebuild?

Or staying in the rebuild and trading Dougie?

 

not folowing now lol