Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[zima]

I hope he falls on his face as sad as that may sound I would love to wipe that ignorant smile from his face and fire BT for not trying to get something for him when he had a chance he isn't that stupid not to realize JH was leaving for good and if he didn't the he should be fired for being so dame dumb.

[phoenix66]

14 minutes ago, zima said:

I hope he falls on his face as sad as that may sound I would love to wipe that ignorant smile from his face and fire BT for not trying to get something for him when he had a chance he isn't that stupid not to realize JH was leaving for good and if he didn't the he should be fired for being so dame dumb.

Like I said in my last post..he made believers out of the biggest skeptics .. flat out said "I'd love to work out a deal to stay" .. but he was lying 

Also..we don't know what BT's orders were.. just look at Ottawa .. Melnyk dies (RIP) and suddenly Dorian isn't a total incompetent anymore .. I don't think that's coincidence 

[The_People1]

8 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Like I said in my last post..he made believers out of the biggest skeptics .. flat out said "I'd love to work out a deal to stay" .. but he was lying 

Also..we don't know what BT's orders were.. just look at Ottawa .. Melnyk dies (RIP) and suddenly Dorian isn't a total incompetent anymore .. I don't think that's coincidence 

 

Ya I would forgive BT for getting played if the orders came from above that Gaudreau must be signed and no other options can be considered.  Okay, then it's the owners fault.  This means even if BT had a hunch he was dealing with some one who he knew wasn't going to sign, he was stuck to deal all the way through.

 

Otherwise, I'm not feeling confident moving forward with a GM who got played by a FA because he has to handle the other FAs coming up.

 

In the end, maybe it was a bit of both but we may never know the real answer.

[travel_dude]

31 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

True .. but doesn't sound like someone who wrestled ..

My theory is this.. he knew he planned to leave , unless he got a super ridiculous offer to change his mind .. likely in Connor territory 

There's blame to go around 

 

I think bt should have been more pushing for at least a progress update .. but at the end of the day , treating his players as humans has been more beneficial than detrimental

 

I think Johnny shouid have just made it clear.."unless I get this I'm leaving " 

 

If you " love and respect the organization, the city and the fans" you act a little classier and at least give them an option to get something back ..or look at plan B sooner 

 

I think his mind was made up before Mr. Edwards made a call (if that happened).  

I don't think there was any figure he had in mind.

 

The only option we had if he said he was leaving was getting a pick back; nothing great there.  He maybe didn't decide until some point this season.  Even made that decision after we lost to EDM.  Or he felt that the fans were PO'd at him for his play in the final series.  Certainly was a lot of negative posts and tweets.  

[travel_dude]

Not much good in trashing the GM before the season starts.  We have no idea what the roster will look like.  He may swing for the fences and sign/trade awesome players.  He may trade and/or retire players.  We may have weaponized cap.  

[phoenix66]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think his mind was made up before Mr. Edwards made a call (if that happened).  

I don't think there was any figure he had in mind.

 

The only option we had if he said he was leaving was getting a pick back; nothing great there.  He maybe didn't decide until some point this season.  Even made that decision after we lost to EDM.  Or he felt that the fans were PO'd at him for his play in the final series.  Certainly was a lot of negative posts and tweets.  

All very possible .. my main point is he definitely didn't decide it at 9pm on the 12th.. 

 

I think at the end of the day, put this year aside he is what we saw ..an extremely talented player , who just wants to have fun .. hates the limelight.. but above all does not Hate to lose ..I think Sutter pushed him out of his comfort zone style of play..and while he seemed to embrace it and excel at it ., Hated it ..  he just wants to spin and wheel and put on a show.

Again..nothing wrong with that except we are likely better off since that's not the kind of player you build a championship around 

Things like Sutter not making a big deal of things like his milestone game (" hope he plays better in that one than this last one ") could have rubbed him the wrong way 

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Not much good in trashing the GM before the season starts.  We have no idea what the roster will look like.  He may swing for the fences and sign/trade awesome players.  He may trade and/or retire players.  We may have weaponized cap.  

Yep..it's a whole process right now ..

Aim for your targets whoever they may be.. win or lose .. then you have teams desperate to move salary out ... Then you have the bargain bin of players scared they won't get a chair .. and even then ..Wait to see who was actually a good move or not .. everybody slammed the Gubrandson and Zadorov moves ..that turned out well.. even lewis ended up being a good move 

[zima]

In BT's time here he has made some huge mistakes on UFA's so him not doing anything is fine with me with him we seemed to pay out more for buy outs than anything else. Please BT don't sign any UFA's I don't see coleman being that great of a player either but at least he is not a total bust

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, zima said:

In BT's time here he has made some huge mistakes on UFA's so him not doing anything is fine with me with him we seemed to pay out more for buy outs than anything else. Please BT don't sign any UFA's I don't see coleman being that great of a player either but at least he is not a total bust

For the role we signed him for he was one of our best players last year . And playoffs .. he wasnt sighed for points ..

 

Ps ..that goal was good ..lol

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

Not much good in trashing the GM before the season starts.  We have no idea what the roster will look like.  He may swing for the fences and sign/trade awesome players.  He may trade and/or retire players.  We may have weaponized cap.  

 

I do agree there's no point in trashing the GM, quite honestly he seems like a great guy.

 

But I do believe sometimes a bit of realism can save you an extra 5 years of aweful.  And would have saved us from it.   At any rate it's unlikely to harm anything unless management actually reads these forums 😅

 

The thing is, trashing or not, IMHO he doesn't have enough Ammo to do much.   He has cap space.   On its own, free cap space is only a recipe to make poor decisions.

 

He's out of players, imho, he's out of picks, and imho he's out of prospects although I know Pelletier and Wolf do say hi.

 

He either signs a bunch of UFAs, and there aren't really many good ones who will come here (especially after what Gaudreau just did), or he starts a rebuild ahead of Bedard.

 

We both know he will sign a bunch of UFAs.  Of those available, none are going to make a difference that will come here.  And he can't exactly make trades when he has no picks left.    (ok if he trades our 2023 first rounder I will lose it).

 

The question is, where does that put us?     I don't think anywhere great for a while, I just don't see that in the math of it.

 

 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya I would forgive BT for getting played if the orders came from above that Gaudreau must be signed and no other options can be considered.  Okay, then it's the owners fault.  This means even if BT had a hunch he was dealing with some one who he knew wasn't going to sign, he was stuck to deal all the way through.

 

Otherwise, I'm not feeling confident moving forward with a GM who got played by a FA because he has to handle the other FAs coming up.

 

In the end, maybe it was a bit of both but we may never know the real answer.

 

 

Very very very possible its the owners fault.       I see it as, it's our job to blame the GM.   lol.   It's better than blaming the players, at least.   If it's the owners, well....we have a long wait.

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I do agree there's no point in trashing the GM, quite honestly he seems like a great guy.

 

But I do believe sometimes a bit of realism can save you an extra 5 years of aweful.  And would have saved us from it.   At any rate it's unlikely to harm anything unless management actually reads these forums 😅

 

The thing is, trashing or not, IMHO he doesn't have enough Ammo to do much.   He has cap space.   On its own, free cap space is only a recipe to make poor decisions.

 

He's out of players, imho, he's out of picks, and imho he's out of prospects although I know Pelletier and Wolf do say hi.

 

He either signs a bunch of UFAs, and there aren't really many good ones who will come here (especially after what Gaudreau just did), or he starts a rebuild ahead of Bedard.

 

We both know he will sign a bunch of UFAs.  Of those available, none are going to make a difference that will come here.  And he can't exactly make trades when he has no picks left.    (ok if he trades our 2023 first rounder I will lose it).

 

The question is, where does that put us?     I don't think anywhere great for a while, I just don't see that in the math of it.

 

 

 

There are more than two choices.  We have players that are desired elsewhere.  We can make trades.  Not everything is about UFA's or trading picks.  You want a tear down so, no matter how close we are to being a contender, you won't be happy.  We may not have 1st overall prospects, but some of the ones we do have could end up being middle pair or middle 6 players.  Mangiapane came that way.  Could a player like Mangiapane be a 80 point player?  Don't see why not.  Or his value is so high right now, he gets us a top 6 player in return.  Or we trade Monahan and Dube to Philly for a player like JVR, a player like Frost and Provorov.  Cap space is king and then all we have to do is turn around and dump Lucic. 

 

Anyway, just giving examples.  If he chooses to do nothing, then he's a lame duck.      

[Heartbreaker]

So, curious... there's a lot of coulda shoulda woulda going around here about our GM, and I wonder, if they had moved Johnny at the deadline for the same package that Iginla netted - would you have been happy? Keeping in mind that at the trade deadline, the Flames were one of the best teams in the league, and they would have been trading their best player, as a rental, to a team that they may have had to face if they'd gone to the SCF.

 

Love.

[The_People1]

56 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

So, curious... there's a lot of coulda shoulda woulda going around here about our GM, and I wonder, if they had moved Johnny at the deadline for the same package that Iginla netted - would you have been happy? Keeping in mind that at the trade deadline, the Flames were one of the best teams in the league, and they would have been trading their best player, as a rental, to a team that they may have had to face if they'd gone to the SCF.

 

Love.

 

No I would not be happy with an Iginla-level return but that's because we got garbage for Iginla.  We traded Iginla 3 years too late.  For Gaudreau at the prime of his career, we should've would've could've gotten a Jack Eichel level return.  That is the return I would be happy with.

 

In regards to the timing of such a trade (which is the real question you are asking), yes.  Reluctantly yes.  The path to the Conference Finals was so clear for us that it would've been tough to justify but still... at the end of the day, it's a yes for me.  I was proposing Gaudreau trades most of the season so I'm not saying this after the fact.  We are a small market team that has to be very very careful handling our key assets.  We gambled it away.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Heartbreaker said:

So, curious... there's a lot of coulda shoulda woulda going around here about our GM, and I wonder, if they had moved Johnny at the deadline for the same package that Iginla netted - would you have been happy? Keeping in mind that at the trade deadline, the Flames were one of the best teams in the league, and they would have been trading their best player, as a rental, to a team that they may have had to face if they'd gone to the SCF.

 

Love.

 

It's a tough call.  We got that return for a player at the end of his career, and the trade was made by a bozo, no offfense to clowns.  There was literally one team that he would accept a trade to.  I suspect Gaudreau would have greenlighted a trade anywhere in the USA.  Most of the teams that loaded up were in the USA.  We could have retained salary and taken better than what Giroux brought back.  Probably better than what Hagel brought back.  

 

It's a tough thing to do when you are winning, but knowing we were losing the player end of the season, there really wasn't a good path to the cup that made keeping a player you were losing just for the sake of a poossible first or second round exit.  It went through EDM, LA, NAS, COL, DAL, MIN, STL and possibly VGK.  Fans would have been on board.  AT least I think so.  

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, Heartbreaker said:

So, curious... there's a lot of coulda shoulda woulda going around here about our GM, and I wonder, if they had moved Johnny at the deadline for the same package that Iginla netted - would you have been happy? Keeping in mind that at the trade deadline, the Flames were one of the best teams in the league, and they would have been trading their best player, as a rental, to a team that they may have had to face if they'd gone to the SCF.

 

Love.

Taking hindsight away... Many picked us to be in the final..  facing the avalanche in a wcf for sure .. 

It would have been met with anarchy 

[travel_dude]

35 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Taking hindsight away... Many picked us to be in the final..  facing the avalanche in a wcf for sure .. 

It would have been met with anarchy 

 

I think so many had inner demons that didn't see us making it to the finals, or beating Tampa. Many had reservations that he was going to be able to put it together for the playoffs.  The other thing is a trade singals that he wasn't re-signing, so it would have been a collective GTFO from fans. 

[The_People1]

44 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Taking hindsight away... Many picked us to be in the final..  facing the avalanche in a wcf for sure .. 

It would have been met with anarchy 

 

I was either ALL IN or ALL OUT.  Trade Wolf, Pelletier, Zary, etc... get that 2nd line Center.  Get that #1 LD.  Gaudreau may or may not come back so that might have been the final playoff run of the window.  Go all in or trade Gaudreau for something good to set us up for more chances in the coming years.

 

The window is now closed and that opportunity is no longer before us.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

So, curious... there's a lot of coulda shoulda woulda going around here about our GM, and I wonder, if they had moved Johnny at the deadline for the same package that Iginla netted - would you have been happy? Keeping in mind that at the trade deadline, the Flames were one of the best teams in the league, and they would have been trading their best player, as a rental, to a team that they may have had to face if they'd gone to the SCF.

 

Love.

 

Define happy lol

 

It would have been better than nothing.    But say this actually happened.   I wouldn't be mad that he was traded, I would be made that we waited so long for such a poor return.  Same as I am now, same as I was with Iginla, and others.

 

When we saw Gaudreau struggle to matter in the 2019 playoffs, that was it for me.   I would have done it then.

 

Player doesn't clearly want to stay

Player isn't effective in the playoffs

Player has massive value

 

The above to me is a trade.   I can also be put in the category that isn't just saying this after the fact.   It would have been unpopular for a brief moment in time until we realized what we had in the return.

[cross16]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

No I would not be happy with an Iginla-level return but that's because we got garbage for Iginla.  We traded Iginla 3 years too late.  For Gaudreau at the prime of his career, we should've would've could've gotten a Jack Eichel level return.  That is the return I would be happy with.

 

In regards to the timing of such a trade (which is the real question you are asking), yes.  Reluctantly yes.  The path to the Conference Finals was so clear for us that it would've been tough to justify but still... at the end of the day, it's a yes for me.  I was proposing Gaudreau trades most of the season so I'm not saying this after the fact.  We are a small market team that has to be very very careful handling our key assets.  We gambled it away.

No chance you get that return this season though. The only time you would have gotten a good return on Gaudreau is if you dealt him in 2019 IMO. 
 

I think dealing him at the deadline this year, while also a ludicrous idea, would have been disappointing. I agree you would have gotten an Iginla style return and honestly probably even less. Remember he had a 4 team NTC so there were only 4 teams they could move him too. Pretty safe to say the flyers would be one and they wouldn’t have traded for him so you are dealing with 3 teams and a pending UFA

 

flames we’re not going to get anything of good value had they dealt him at the TDL. He needed to be dealt prior to his NTC to generate good value. 

[The_People1]

21 minutes ago, cross16 said:

No chance you get that return this season though. The only time you would have gotten a good return on Gaudreau is if you dealt him in 2019 IMO. 
 

I think dealing him at the deadline this year, while also a ludicrous idea, would have been disappointing. I agree you would have gotten an Iginla style return and honestly probably even less. Remember he had a 4 team NTC so there were only 4 teams they could move him too. Pretty safe to say the flyers would be one and they wouldn’t have traded for him so you are dealing with 3 teams and a pending UFA

 

flames we’re not going to get anything of good value had they dealt him at the TDL. He needed to be dealt prior to his NTC to generate good value. 

 

Trues enough about the NTC... we should've went all in.

[Heartbreaker]

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I don't buy this narrative that we got nothing by not trading him. Here's what we got for hanging on:

 

1. One of the best seasons from a Flames player in franchise history
2. The most exciting goal that a Flames player has scored since Game 5 of the 2004 Stanley Cup Final
3. Career years from both of his line mates - together, they made up the best line in the NHL

 

I hate the way that this went down, and I was both stunned and disappointed. I wish I was tight with someone on the inside because we don't have the pieces to make sense of what actually transpired, and that is bewildering and frustrating. That's about the only part of this that makes any sense, and there's no way that our team is better for it. The thing is, this past season was the season to go all in. Yes, they fell short - they were essentially swept by their biggest rival (yeah, I know it was five games, but they lost four straight), and that has set the tone for this nightmare of an off-season. That was the gamble, though.

 

We still have a few months before training camp, and the pieces to ice a very good team. I realize that mediocrity is a terrifying possibility, but lets see what happens, and get behind the boys that want to be here.

 

Love.

[conundrumed]

6 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

We still have a few months before training camp, and the pieces to ice a very good team. I realize that mediocrity is a terrifying possibility, but lets see what happens, and get behind the boys that want to be here.

 

Love.

JG doesn't change us much. The main thing being that we have an identity that he never really gave us in his years here..

We're not going to lose that identity without him.

In fact, I believe this helps and we'll be even better fortifying that identity.

Tkachuk should stay, because this team coalesces far more with his identity as a player than it does JG's.

We'll be fine. I'm not terrified at all.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

JG doesn't change us much. The main thing being that we have an identity that he never really gave us in his years here..

We're not going to lose that identity without him.

In fact, I believe this helps and we'll be even better fortifying that identity.

Tkachuk should stay, because this team coalesces far more with his identity as a player than it does JG's.

We'll be fine. I'm not terrified at all.

 

The issue is whether Tkachuk sees a future here.  If not, then we have to trade for the type of player he represented.  Yes, we have the identity, we just need to build in that direction again.

[jjgallow]

My only comment here is that really this thread is intended to evaluate the GM,

 

We can still rally around the players without loving the GM, we can still be fans and not support all the GM does,

 

There's been some comments above along the lines of "let's not panic", "let's not jump to conclusions" etc.

 

But to reiterate, we lost our most valuable player and possibly the most skilled player in the league, on a gamble.

 

The question is whether a GM should be a gambler, essentially.

 

At any given time, each team has a dice-roll 28% chance of winning the Stanley cup within 10 years.

 

GMs can either increase those odds closer to 50% or higher by investing in the future.   Or they can reduce those odds by sacrificing the future.  So for instance this year, we maybe had a 7% chance of winning the cup, Treliving increased it to 8% through various short term moves, and decreased our next 10 years probably down to around 20%.

 

It's nothing personal about the players or about knee jerk reactions.  It's if we want that kind of risk management in charge or not.