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Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation


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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Hey, if you are doing that, might as well bring up Pelletier for the 4th line and sit Looch.

Dube with Lucic is not like when Bennett was here; Looch is toast.


 

👍🏼

 

in my original post before finalizing editing I had him in. 
 

I never really understood the Lucic usage. He played good some times but most of the time he wasn't. So I guess it hinges on the hope he will give one good hit. 

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1 hour ago, robrob74 said:


 

👍🏼

 

in my original post before finalizing editing I had him in. 
 

I never really understood the Lucic usage. He played good some times but most of the time he wasn't. So I guess it hinges on the hope he will give one good hit. 

 

When the team was struggling, that line was good at burning minutes and wearing the other team out.  Now the other teams gets worn out from having the puck and getting chances.  Seriously though, the decline from last year is obvious.  From what the stats would suggest, he was on for about 6-7 goals for and 11-12 against.  Sutter supposedly looks at stats, so he is clearly ignoring the obvious for the little bit of grit that might be brought.

 

Look, I have no problem with Lucic taking a leadership role, but at some point you have to sit the guy.  The wheels are flat and the alignment is off.

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  • 4 weeks later...

As part of a 2023 predictions column for TSN Salim Vaji (TSN beat reporter for the Flames) includes one of his "bold predications" is that Treliving won't be back as GM after the season. Speculates he could see him go to Toronto. 

 

It's his own opinion and he does go on to say this isn't what he's hearing but rather speculation. Feels it's strange the Flames extended Sutter but didn't extend Treliving. Also makes some suggestions around Sutter's ties to ownership and the appearance that Treliving/Sutter may not see eye to eye. 

 

While I think there is truth to the last statement I'm still seeing this as unlikely. I think the ownership group really likes Treliving so I would be surprised to see them let him go. On the other hand it's been long rumored that Treliving has been fighting for autonomy so if he feels Sutter being here infringes on that maybe he would prefer to leave. He'd have suitors no doubt in my mind. 

 

Anyway don't shoot the messenger I'm just sharing the article. I would say it would be an absolute disaster if the Flames have any plans on Sutter being the GM or having any power like that again.  (I still think that is unlikely because even Darryl himself has admitted he didn't really enjoy the GM job)

 

 

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5 hours ago, cross16 said:

As part of a 2023 predictions column for TSN Salim Vaji (TSN beat reporter for the Flames) includes one of his "bold predications" is that Treliving won't be back as GM after the season. Speculates he could see him go to Toronto. 

 

It's his own opinion and he does go on to say this isn't what he's hearing but rather speculation. Feels it's strange the Flames extended Sutter but didn't extend Treliving. Also makes some suggestions around Sutter's ties to ownership and the appearance that Treliving/Sutter may not see eye to eye. 

 

While I think there is truth to the last statement I'm still seeing this as unlikely. I think the ownership group really likes Treliving so I would be surprised to see them let him go. On the other hand it's been long rumored that Treliving has been fighting for autonomy so if he feels Sutter being here infringes on that maybe he would prefer to leave. He'd have suitors no doubt in my mind. 

 

Anyway don't shoot the messenger I'm just sharing the article. I would say it would be an absolute disaster if the Flames have any plans on Sutter being the GM or having any power like that again.  (I still think that is unlikely because even Darryl himself has admitted he didn't really enjoy the GM job)

 

 

 

Firstly, I thought both BT and Sutter were extended to 3 years. No?

 

And nextly, a major retool was going to take time for players to gel.  I'm thinking 2 seasons minimum.  Thus, I think we should re-tool young but we retooled old.  But did that direction come from BT or the owners?  I feel if BT was given the orders to "retool young" then he could've got young value for Tkachuk.

 

And lastly, rarely would anyone turn down an opportunity to manage the Leafs.  It's like the pinnacle job for GMs so the only way I see BT leave the Flames for the Leafs is if the Leafs were given permission to talk to BT and gave a good offer.  So maybe yes, BT goes to the Leafs and it's not that the Flames fired him.

 

There's no reason to fire BT.  He's doing what the owners have told him to do and he's doing a great job at that.

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7 hours ago, cross16 said:

As part of a 2023 predictions column for TSN Salim Vaji (TSN beat reporter for the Flames) includes one of his "bold predications" is that Treliving won't be back as GM after the season. Speculates he could see him go to Toronto. 

 

It's his own opinion and he does go on to say this isn't what he's hearing but rather speculation. Feels it's strange the Flames extended Sutter but didn't extend Treliving. Also makes some suggestions around Sutter's ties to ownership and the appearance that Treliving/Sutter may not see eye to eye. 

 

While I think there is truth to the last statement I'm still seeing this as unlikely. I think the ownership group really likes Treliving so I would be surprised to see them let him go. On the other hand it's been long rumored that Treliving has been fighting for autonomy so if he feels Sutter being here infringes on that maybe he would prefer to leave. He'd have suitors no doubt in my mind. 

 

Anyway don't shoot the messenger I'm just sharing the article. I would say it would be an absolute disaster if the Flames have any plans on Sutter being the GM or having any power like that again.  (I still think that is unlikely because even Darryl himself has admitted he didn't really enjoy the GM job)

 

 

Thanks for bring forth the article. I certainly would have missed it.

 

First bolded. As you mentioned, it is pure speculation. However, if TO did want him then that would mean he is one of the best out there, and I would concur with that.

 

Second bolded. Treliving has autonomy (since Burke left), and he alone extended DS, why would he not after the season DS brought us last year.

 

Third bolded. Never once have I heard DS and BT having issues. The owner has said “win now” so that is what the two are conspiring to do, that is why DS is here. BT is a communicator, I would suspect he and DS talk and plan for hours every day.

 

Forth bolded. Pretty certain DS has no ambitions of being a GM again, that is 15 years behind him already, he has always said he is here for one reason only and that is to win now, as a head coach.

 

If ownership ever gave BT the mandate for a total re-build, resulting in a decade of losing and poor gate receipts, there is no other GM I would want to lead us down such a painful path than BT.

 

BT has always been a humble and modest guy, he puts everything Flames related first, he knows he comes last when talking extensions. I think he and his family loves CGY, his work speaks for itself, he will be here a long time so long as the ownership continues to appreciate him and compensates him fairly.

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6 hours ago, cross16 said:

As part of a 2023 predictions column for TSN Salim Vaji (TSN beat reporter for the Flames) includes one of his "bold predications" is that Treliving won't be back as GM after the season. Speculates he could see him go to Toronto. 

 

It's his own opinion and he does go on to say this isn't what he's hearing but rather speculation. Feels it's strange the Flames extended Sutter but didn't extend Treliving. Also makes some suggestions around Sutter's ties to ownership and the appearance that Treliving/Sutter may not see eye to eye. 

 

While I think there is truth to the last statement I'm still seeing this as unlikely. I think the ownership group really likes Treliving so I would be surprised to see them let him go. On the other hand it's been long rumored that Treliving has been fighting for autonomy so if he feels Sutter being here infringes on that maybe he would prefer to leave. He'd have suitors no doubt in my mind. 

 

Anyway don't shoot the messenger I'm just sharing the article. I would say it would be an absolute disaster if the Flames have any plans on Sutter being the GM or having any power like that again.  (I still think that is unlikely because even Darryl himself has admitted he didn't really enjoy the GM job)

 

 


Maybe BT doesn't even want to come back? There has been no word either way. I think he has done an average to good job. But I also think it's been a bit of fresh air to think he's listening to scouts and not just going by gut l, which it kind of feels like they used to do. But maybe most did. 

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3 hours ago, CheersMan said:

Thanks for bring forth the article. I certainly would have missed it.

 

First bolded. As you mentioned, it is pure speculation. However, if TO did want him then that would mean he is one of the best out there, and I would concur with that.

 

Second bolded. Treliving has autonomy (since Burke left), and he alone extended DS, why would he not after the season DS brought us last year.

 

Third bolded. Never once have I heard DS and BT having issues. The owner has said “win now” so that is what the two are conspiring to do, that is why DS is here. BT is a communicator, I would suspect he and DS talk and plan for hours every day.

 

Forth bolded. Pretty certain DS has no ambitions of being a GM again, that is 15 years behind him already, he has always said he is here for one reason only and that is to win now, as a head coach.

 

If ownership ever gave BT the mandate for a total re-build, resulting in a decade of losing and poor gate receipts, there is no other GM I would want to lead us down such a painful path than BT.

 

BT has always been a humble and modest guy, he puts everything Flames related first, he knows he comes last when talking extensions. I think he and his family loves CGY, his work speaks for itself, he will be here a long time so long as the ownership continues to appreciate him and compensates him fairly.

 

Yes pretty much.

 

All last season, BT has tried to get Sutter everything from RHS RD, to RHS C, to depth D, to the 4 line that Sutter dreams of deploying.  BT has given Sutter what he wants and players who buy into his system.  The team flourished.  The two are on the same page.

 

This season, it's been tough when it comes to RHS C.  Sutter loves his RHS C for important faceoffs.  That's been missing.  Plus, the whole Gaudreau/Tkachuk saga left BT in a tough spot.  He had to do the best he can under the circumstances.

 

But I don't believe there is any tension between BT and Sutter.  They are on the same page.  The mandate from top down is to win-now and both are doing their best.

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3 hours ago, robrob74 said:


Maybe BT doesn't even want to come back? There has been no word either way. I think he has done an average to good job. But I also think it's been a bit of fresh air to think he's listening to scouts and not just going by gut l, which it kind of feels like they used to do. But maybe most did. 

 

Ya I grade Treliving a B+.  He's not among the elite but he's decent.  Plus, ownership's mandate to win now affects his decisions I would assume.  Almost all his bad moves have been the "rushing to win" kind where patience was what was needed.  

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29 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yes pretty much.

 

All last season, BT has tried to get Sutter everything from RHS RD, to RHS C, to depth D, to the 4 line that Sutter dreams of deploying.  BT has given Sutter what he wants and players who buy into his system.  The team flourished.  The two are on the same page.

 

This season, it's been tough when it comes to RHS C.  Sutter loves his RHS C for important faceoffs.  That's been missing.  Plus, the whole Gaudreau/Tkachuk saga left BT in a tough spot.  He had to do the best he can under the circumstances.

 

But I don't believe there is any tension between BT and Sutter.  They are on the same page.  The mandate from top down is to win-now and both are doing their best.

 

I am willing to accept the fact the ownership has given a win now mandate.

 

But, really, with how things went down with Gaudreau/Monahan/Tkachuk/Bennet/Valimaki/Lucic  are we really, really, really sure that ownership was adamant about largely giving away our core?   See there I didn't even mention Fox, whoops mentioned him.

 

Even in win-now mode I find it hard to believe that anything sensible was done with most of those players, most notably Gaudreau.   Gaudreau was recently interviewed and indicated he never strung the Flames along.  It's true.  We all knew his intentions several years prior.

 

To entirely relieve BT of blame it has to be more than a "win now" mandate.   It has to be much, more specific directions, making BT almost a puppet.  And I don't think that was quite the case.

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10 hours ago, cross16 said:

As part of a 2023 predictions column for TSN Salim Vaji (TSN beat reporter for the Flames) includes one of his "bold predications" is that Treliving won't be back as GM after the season. Speculates he could see him go to Toronto. 

 

It's his own opinion and he does go on to say this isn't what he's hearing but rather speculation. Feels it's strange the Flames extended Sutter but didn't extend Treliving. Also makes some suggestions around Sutter's ties to ownership and the appearance that Treliving/Sutter may not see eye to eye. 

 

While I think there is truth to the last statement I'm still seeing this as unlikely. I think the ownership group really likes Treliving so I would be surprised to see them let him go. On the other hand it's been long rumored that Treliving has been fighting for autonomy so if he feels Sutter being here infringes on that maybe he would prefer to leave. He'd have suitors no doubt in my mind. 

 

Anyway don't shoot the messenger I'm just sharing the article. I would say it would be an absolute disaster if the Flames have any plans on Sutter being the GM or having any power like that again.  (I still think that is unlikely because even Darryl himself has admitted he didn't really enjoy the GM job)

 

 

I caught this article today too. I was taken aback to say the least.

He ascribes it to Dubas being on his way out should the Leafs do the typical this year, and BT and Sutter being at odds.

Add in, if you choose to believe those things, BT is a top GM and this is the center of the universe.

In other words, I don't really buy any of this.

Salim is inventing talking points that I doubt exist. It's pretty overboard and taking liberties.

Though it does give me the idea to sell this to my Leafs buddies next time they're over, after some quality brownies and a few snifters of Elijah Craig.lol

I can totally sell this thing....

I have to say, both my teams have top GMs. I'll always have that!!

 

 

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2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I am willing to accept the fact the ownership has given a win now mandate.

 

But, really, with how things went down with Gaudreau/Monahan/Tkachuk/Bennet/Valimaki/Lucic  are we really, really, really sure that ownership was adamant about largely giving away our core?   See there I didn't even mention Fox, whoops mentioned him.

 

Even in win-now mode I find it hard to believe that anything sensible was done with most of those players, most notably Gaudreau.   Gaudreau was recently interviewed and indicated he never strung the Flames along.  It's true.  We all knew his intentions several years prior.

 

To entirely relieve BT of blame it has to be more than a "win now" mandate.   It has to be much, more specific directions, making BT almost a puppet.  And I don't think that was quite the case.

 

I know you've mentioned the Fox thing in other threads but my honest opinion is that it wasn't on the Flames.  Instead, they should be given credit for spotting talent in the draft where others missed it.  We would've won the Cup last season if we had Fox.  All we were missing last season was a Norris D.  But alas, after 3 years in Harvard, he was going to play out his final year and go UFA (aka New York).  Carolina also couldn't convince him to sign.  Fox was a 3rd round pick that was more than a throw-in in the Lindholm/Hanifin trade.  We didn't lose him for nothing.  Without Fox, maybe CAR doesn't do that trade.

 

If only if only...

 

If only Monahan never developed hip problems... then we would've won the Cup last season.  In addition to a Norris D, it would've been nice to have a 30-G scoring 2nd line Center instead of Backlund (who was great in the playoffs but better suited to be a 3rd line checking Center).

 

If only Bennett... if only we lost a few more meaningless games, then we would've drafted either Reinhart or Draisaitl instead.  Monahan, Bennett, and Backlund was supposed to be our next Neuiwendyk, Gilmour, and Otto.  What happened?  Poor pick, or poor development, or poor planning, etc.. maybe a combo of all those.  BT should take a bit of blame for Bennett's failure.  We really needed a #1 Center with our 4th overall pick.  Again, would've won the Cup last season if Bennett was one.

 

Valimaki is out BT's control though.  That knee injury set him back 2 years and he ran out of time with the Flames.  I give BT a pass on this one.

 

Lucic... BT made the best of a bad decision to sign Neal.  This one is totally on BT.  He never learned after the Brower signing... meanwhile, he let heart and soul guys like Hathaway walk (although I didn't want to sign Hathaway either at the time, BT didn't know any better than me).  We knew Lucic's final season would be bad and here we are.

 

Not all of these were bad or entirely his fault.

 

As for BT's biggest wins.

  • believing in Tanev when VAN and others didn't.
  • finding a #1 Center in Lindholm.
  • Rasmus Andersson

Flames wouldn't have a chance without these three.

 

So to end, had he managed the Flames the same way and got more luck with Fox and Monahan alone, the Flames would've won the Cup... we probably didn't need Lindholm and Hanifin if we had Fox and a fully healthy Monahan... but it just didn't go that way.

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3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I know you've mentioned the Fox thing in other threads but my honest opinion is that it wasn't on the Flames.  Instead, they should be given credit for spotting talent in the draft where others missed it.  We would've won the Cup last season if we had Fox.  All we were missing last season was a Norris D.  But alas, after 3 years in Harvard, he was going to play out his final year and go UFA (aka New York).  Carolina also couldn't convince him to sign.  Fox was a 3rd round pick that was more than a throw-in in the Lindholm/Hanifin trade.  We didn't lose him for nothing.  Without Fox, maybe CAR doesn't do that trade.

 

If only if only...

 

If only Monahan never developed hip problems... then we would've won the Cup last season.  In addition to a Norris D, it would've been nice to have a 30-G scoring 2nd line Center instead of Backlund (who was great in the playoffs but better suited to be a 3rd line checking Center).

 

If only Bennett... if only we lost a few more meaningless games, then we would've drafted either Reinhart or Draisaitl instead.  Monahan, Bennett, and Backlund was supposed to be our next Neuiwendyk, Gilmour, and Otto.  What happened?  Poor pick, or poor development, or poor planning, etc.. maybe a combo of all those.  BT should take a bit of blame for Bennett's failure.  We really needed a #1 Center with our 4th overall pick.  Again, would've won the Cup last season if Bennett was one.

 

Valimaki is out BT's control though.  That knee injury set him back 2 years and he ran out of time with the Flames.  I give BT a pass on this one.

 

Lucic... BT made the best of a bad decision to sign Neal.  This one is totally on BT.  He never learned after the Brower signing... meanwhile, he let heart and soul guys like Hathaway walk (although I didn't want to sign Hathaway either at the time, BT didn't know any better than me).  We knew Lucic's final season would be bad and here we are.

 

Not all of these were bad or entirely his fault.

 

As for BT's biggest wins.

  • believing in Tanev when VAN and others didn't.
  • finding a #1 Center in Lindholm.
  • Rasmus Andersson

Flames wouldn't have a chance without these three.

 

So to end, had he managed the Flames the same way and got more luck with Fox and Monahan alone, the Flames would've won the Cup... we probably didn't need Lindholm and Hanifin if we had Fox and a fully healthy Monahan... but it just didn't go that way.

 

As 2022 is coming to a close, I will refrain from going through this line by line 😅.  

 

But it's tempting.

 

A couple general comments:

 

The cup being close:  We weren't even close.  We got slammed so hard in the playoffs it's almost like we'd be better off if we weren't there.  It was embarrassing.  And not a new thing for us.   To suggest that we were one player or one move away, isn't fair, in fact of every team in the playoffs I'd say we were the furthest from that.    There were reasons for that, from Regular season Gaudreau to our goaltending.   But the bottom line is the feelling of being close was just a regular season illusion.  The only thing we were closer to was more regular season triumphs.  We were never composed for anything resembling playoff hockey.

 

If only this one move:   I could list many reasons why it always felt like we were one move away but in reality we weren't in the ballpark.    But for simplicity I'll just say this:   BT's cap management.  And none of these cap mistakes were hindsight things.  None of them seemed good at the time.   They weren't "oh nice long term move" signings.  Each one was "ugh, ok for now but that's gonna hurt" signings.  The kind of signings that brought on role players at the cost of not locking down our core players, who would in turn leave for nothing as UFAs etc.

We were dead in the water as soon as BT had the authority to sign players to contracts.  Starting with, but not at all limited to, Lucic.    Zero of the above was ever possible because BT sunk us here.   It's not the only way he sunk us but it's pretty definitive and keeps the reply short and simple.

 

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I’m not personally of the opinion there is tension between BT and Sutter but I will admit it’s long been whispered behind the scenes. I’m still not 100% convinced Sutter was BT’s hire. It is fairly well known that Sutter stayed close with Murray Edwards so it’s not they difficult for me to see a scenario where Sutter has more influence than the avg coach given that relationship. You see it come up from time to time especially in development. Sutter and BT almost talk a different language when it comes to how they want to see players developed.  
 

but I do agree that Salim is expanding on that and trying to fit it into his narrative. I will still be very surprised if he does but I guess what I’m getting at it I don’t think if he we’re to leave it likely be because he wants to and not because ownership doesn’t want him around. 
 

but I’m in the camp that he’s very good at what he does and he should stay. I’d be hard pressed to believe the flames would hire someone better. 

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2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

As 2022 is coming to a close, I will refrain from going through this line by line 😅.  

 

But it's tempting.

 

A couple general comments:

 

The cup being close:  We weren't even close.  We got slammed so hard in the playoffs it's almost like we'd be better off if we weren't there.  It was embarrassing.  And not a new thing for us.   To suggest that we were one player or one move away, isn't fair, in fact of every team in the playoffs I'd say we were the furthest from that.    There were reasons for that, from Regular season Gaudreau to our goaltending.   But the bottom line is the feelling of being close was just a regular season illusion.  The only thing we were closer to was more regular season triumphs.  We were never composed for anything resembling playoff hockey.

 

If only this one move:   I could list many reasons why it always felt like we were one move away but in reality we weren't in the ballpark.    But for simplicity I'll just say this:   BT's cap management.  And none of these cap mistakes were hindsight things.  None of them seemed good at the time.   They weren't "oh nice long term move" signings.  Each one was "ugh, ok for now but that's gonna hurt" signings.  The kind of signings that brought on role players at the cost of not locking down our core players, who would in turn leave for nothing as UFAs etc.

We were dead in the water as soon as BT had the authority to sign players to contracts.  Starting with, but not at all limited to, Lucic.    Zero of the above was ever possible because BT sunk us here.   It's not the only way he sunk us but it's pretty definitive and keeps the reply short and simple.

 

You should maybe tell us who you're replacing BT with so we can put things into context of who you want vs who we've got.

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7 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

You should maybe tell us who you're replacing BT with so we can put things into context of who you want vs who we've got.

 

You in particular would not like that answer (Shawn Horcoff would be on the short list)

 

I'm not saying that a new GM would fix everything.   But I do think it is One of the things that has to happen to rebuild the franchise successfully.

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16 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

You in particular would not like that answer (Shawn Horcoff would be on the short list)

 

I'm not saying that a new GM would fix everything.   But I do think it is One of the things that has to happen to rebuild the franchise successfully.

1. The NHL changed rules due to everyone hoarding their mgmt staff.

2. Leave us alone, too many past paper cuts.lol

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I must be missing something.

Failed trades happen with every GM.

Some are way more obvious.

Others cost the team the cup in an alternate universe.

BT's worst moves have been Neal and Brouwer signings.

Maybe the Hamburger kid for a high pick.

 

Hard to get a McDavid in trade or draft a Friasaitl when you have the next pick.

Or you trade for another kid that is expected to shine, which Hammy sure did.

My boggest problem is BT is too loyal.

Loyal to the owners that wanted to hang onto Gio.

Loyal to the player.

Having to fix the goalie situation, replace Gio (in FA) and try to retain Brodie.

Settling for lesser coaches because that's what the ownnes anted.

Not brilliant hockey minds.

We get Wardo and Peters.

After BH.

Coaches matter and we cheaped out until the owners ust said get Sutter.

 

Anyway, we were a lot closer to a cup last year than one series seemed to imply.

Some rookie coaching mistakes by a vet coach.

Sutter loyalty has the same problem as BT loyalty.

It gets in the way of icing the best players.

Lucic on the 2nd line is almost a shot across the bow to BT.

Get me a top 6 winger.

Or I use Lucic.

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

I must be missing something.

Failed trades happen with every GM.

Some are way more obvious.

Others cost the team the cup in an alternate universe.

BT's worst moves have been Neal and Brouwer signings.

Maybe the Hamburger kid for a high pick.

 

Hard to get a McDavid in trade or draft a Friasaitl when you have the next pick.

Or you trade for another kid that is expected to shine, which Hammy sure did.

My boggest problem is BT is too loyal.

Loyal to the owners that wanted to hang onto Gio.

Loyal to the player.

Having to fix the goalie situation, replace Gio (in FA) and try to retain Brodie.

Settling for lesser coaches because that's what the ownnes anted.

Not brilliant hockey minds.

We get Wardo and Peters.

After BH.

Coaches matter and we cheaped out until the owners ust said get Sutter.

 

Anyway, we were a lot closer to a cup last year than one series seemed to imply.

Some rookie coaching mistakes by a vet coach.

Sutter loyalty has the same problem as BT loyalty.

It gets in the way of icing the best players.

Lucic on the 2nd line is almost a shot across the bow to BT.

Get me a top 6 winger.

Or I use Lucic.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I know you've mentioned the Fox thing in other threads but my honest opinion is that it wasn't on the Flames.  Instead, they should be given credit for spotting talent in the draft where others missed it.  We would've won the Cup last season if we had Fox.  All we were missing last season was a Norris D.  But alas, after 3 years in Harvard, he was going to play out his final year and go UFA (aka New York).  Carolina also couldn't convince him to sign.  Fox was a 3rd round pick that was more than a throw-in in the Lindholm/Hanifin trade.  We didn't lose him for nothing.  Without Fox, maybe CAR doesn't do that trade.

 

If only if only...

 

If only Monahan never developed hip problems... then we would've won the Cup last season.  In addition to a Norris D, it would've been nice to have a 30-G scoring 2nd line Center instead of Backlund (who was great in the playoffs but better suited to be a 3rd line checking Center).

 

If only Bennett... if only we lost a few more meaningless games, then we would've drafted either Reinhart or Draisaitl instead.  Monahan, Bennett, and Backlund was supposed to be our next Neuiwendyk, Gilmour, and Otto.  What happened?  Poor pick, or poor development, or poor planning, etc.. maybe a combo of all those.  BT should take a bit of blame for Bennett's failure.  We really needed a #1 Center with our 4th overall pick.  Again, would've won the Cup last season if Bennett was one.

 

Valimaki is out BT's control though.  That knee injury set him back 2 years and he ran out of time with the Flames.  I give BT a pass on this one.

 

Lucic... BT made the best of a bad decision to sign Neal.  This one is totally on BT.  He never learned after the Brower signing... meanwhile, he let heart and soul guys like Hathaway walk (although I didn't want to sign Hathaway either at the time, BT didn't know any better than me).  We knew Lucic's final season would be bad and here we are.

 

Not all of these were bad or entirely his fault.

 

As for BT's biggest wins.

  • believing in Tanev when VAN and others didn't.
  • finding a #1 Center in Lindholm.
  • Rasmus Andersson

Flames wouldn't have a chance without these three.

 

So to end, had he managed the Flames the same way and got more luck with Fox and Monahan alone, the Flames would've won the Cup... we probably didn't need Lindholm and Hanifin if we had Fox and a fully healthy Monahan... but it just didn't go that way.


I've never really liked Monahan as a player, even as a rookie. For me it has always been his skating. He could score but that was all he had and in my eyes needed Gaudreau to prop him up for 10-15 extra goals. I don't see him as a good defender and doesn't have the mobility to keep up with other top end centers when it comes to defending. I always thought it was Bennett we needed to develop. 

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3 hours ago, cross16 said:

I’m not personally of the opinion there is tension between BT and Sutter but I will admit it’s long been whispered behind the scenes. I’m still not 100% convinced Sutter was BT’s hire. It is fairly well known that Sutter stayed close with Murray Edwards so it’s not they difficult for me to see a scenario where Sutter has more influence than the avg coach given that relationship. You see it come up from time to time especially in development. Sutter and BT almost talk a different language when it comes to how they want to see players developed.  
 

but I do agree that Salim is expanding on that and trying to fit it into his narrative. I will still be very surprised if he does but I guess what I’m getting at it I don’t think if he we’re to leave it likely be because he wants to and not because ownership doesn’t want him around. 
 

but I’m in the camp that he’s very good at what he does and he should stay. I’d be hard pressed to believe the flames would hire someone better. 


 

your last part of something I'm very worried about. The flames could do much worse. Even Burke was a poor choice when he took over after Feaster. There are some bad ones out there so maybe BT could be the best we'd get. Not terrible but not the best. Albeit, maybe if BT was given full autonomy to actually build a team, like an Yzerman and GM's like that, maybe we'd see a more creative BT. Maybe the win-now, make the playoffs at all costs mandate handcuffs a lot of GM's here. 

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

I must be missing something.

Failed trades happen with every GM.

Some are way more obvious.

Others cost the team the cup in an alternate universe.

BT's worst moves have been Neal and Brouwer signings.

Maybe the Hamburger kid for a high pick.

 

Hard to get a McDavid in trade or draft a Friasaitl when you have the next pick.

Or you trade for another kid that is expected to shine, which Hammy sure did.

My boggest problem is BT is too loyal.

Loyal to the owners that wanted to hang onto Gio.

Loyal to the player.

Having to fix the goalie situation, replace Gio (in FA) and try to retain Brodie.

Settling for lesser coaches because that's what the ownnes anted.

Not brilliant hockey minds.

We get Wardo and Peters.

After BH.

Coaches matter and we cheaped out until the owners ust said get Sutter.

 

Anyway, we were a lot closer to a cup last year than one series seemed to imply.

Some rookie coaching mistakes by a vet coach.

Sutter loyalty has the same problem as BT loyalty.

It gets in the way of icing the best players.

Lucic on the 2nd line is almost a shot across the bow to BT.

Get me a top 6 winger.

Or I use Lucic.


I get that a lot think if we only beat the oilers... but we barely beat the Stars and then got embarrassed by the Oilers. Maybe we beat the kings if they beat the oilers? But then then we get embarrassed by the Avs because we just aren't fast enough. Any team with any amount of speed will take the Flames to school because they just don't have the speed to keep up. When the stars decided to play the Flames didn't look as good. I guess it's the same with any team. 
 

many say we ran into a hot goalie. I agree he played great! But I also believe we created that situation with how we play. Shots shots shots. It doesn't always mean a lot of goals. It usually means we warm the other goalie up and make them look better. Still not trying to take anything away from how he played as he clearly outplayed Markstrom who also had a great series. I just didn't see the flames making their guy have to move as much to make great saves. They rarely went to the front of the net and that's where you make it harder on opposing goalies. I remember one goal where we made Oettinger move post to post and was like, there! That's how you beat him, but they didn't go that route. 
 

I just don't see this way of playing as successful. I still don't see enough net front presence. Someone said they think Lucic was put on the Kadri line to do that, because there is nothing else to put there. I agree. The team isn't built for the style Sutter wants to play. And guys can't fight for the middle of the ice in tight checking playoff hockey.

 

It's why I've said the team is too small for years. I don't mind smaller players, but too many of them are problematic. I guess I just haven't been able to articulate it.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, robrob74 said:


 

your last part of something I'm very worried about. The flames could do much worse. Even Burke was a poor choice when he took over after Feaster. There are some bad ones out there so maybe BT could be the best we'd get. Not terrible but not the best. Albeit, maybe if BT was given full autonomy to actually build a team, like an Yzerman and GM's like that, maybe we'd see a more creative BT. Maybe the win-now, make the playoffs at all costs mandate handcuffs a lot of GM's here. 

BT didn't inherit 2 future and 1 current hall of famers once he took over the job plus another, nor was he given a compliance buyout to get rid of a contract like Lecavalier which Tampa is still paying for 4 more years with not cap impact.  One thing with Tampa they didn't do the traditional tear down rebuild, they won the cup and then the cap kicked in and they decided to commit to Vinny, St. Louis, Richards and Boyle.  Their goaltending was the primary reason they eventually bottomed out.  But I think having a team with Stamkos, Hedman, St. Louis, and Lecavalier is a better starting point than Giordano, Monahan and Gaudreau and #4 in a weak draft.  

 

Also I think someone with a mandate to make the playoffs doesn't survive 3 non-playoff years especially 2 with higher expectations.  It's just a goal that people blow out of proportion Columbus didn't spend a lot of money in the offseason after an 80 point season in hopes of landing in the bottom 5 but one key injury and the 5 million dollar goalie forgets how to stop pucks and there they are.

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