Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[robrob74]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

The season before they signed him:

50 games played. 29-13-7 with a 2.48 and a .911 Save %

 

With the Flames

52 Games played. 26-19-4 with a 2.36 and a .918Save %

 

He was the Ducks number 1 ever year prior to the Flames signing him. The didn't re sign him because they had Freddie Anderson and and John Gibson coming up. 

 

Fine to admit they needed toughness but if you are planning on a long rebuild you don't, well at least you shouldn't, give up 3rd round picks for players like Bolig. 

well, you shouldn't be giving up a 3rd rounder regardless for Bollig. But yea they needed toughness and needed it sooner. I think it's why Monahan got more injuries. Either him or someone had to say stop hacking his hands for those ones. 

[The_People1]

Friedman believes Don Maloney and Craig Conroy have been quietly extended in case BT decides it's time to walk away.  

 

 

[travel_dude]

On 3/6/2023 at 11:05 AM, robrob74 said:

well, you shouldn't be giving up a 3rd rounder regardless for Bollig. But yea they needed toughness and needed it sooner. I think it's why Monahan got more injuries. Either him or someone had to say stop hacking his hands for those ones. 

 

That was a Burke move.

[jjgallow]

Burke and Hextal just fired.

 

IMHO both are toxic and deserve to be fired, although they were in a difficult position with an aging team.

 

New blood needed.

[bosn111]

I find it difficult to judge Treliving directly based on the last few years. If rumours are true that ownership handcuffed him in multiple ways including forcing Sutter on him as coach, then how do you make a solid analysis?

 

As a GM, there are really 2 choices to make. 1: build a team with players who fit a style you want to see played, then hire a coach to work with those players. Or 2: Hire a certain coach with a known style / system and go get players that work for the coach.

 

Looking at players that Treliving has acquired / signed, his intention has always been option 1. To build the team based on the players. Finding the right coach has admittedly been a challenge for a variety of reasons. Coach ego, coach history of lacking empathy / racism, owner interference etc. 

 

Players like Hanifin, Huberdeau, Weegar, Coleman, Lindholm, Kadri, Stetcher, Markstrom etc. have never been defence first, grind it out system players. Some are very defensively responsible, but I would argue that (adding in Mike Smith and others), Treliving was looking to build more of a hybrid possession / transition team who spent little time in the D zone.

 

The problem is that coaches haven’t been able to consistently implement this style (see no coach lasted long enough and they each caused problems). With Sutter, he refuses to use players as intended, instead forcing players into his style, or else they are in the doghouse. He has also forced Treliving to get players to fit Sutter style hockey (Lewis, Ritchie etc.) rather than who are likely the best players available. Go get me vets who have nothing left to prove rather than me playing hungry young prospects who will likely make mistakes sort of scenario. (Yes vets made similar mistakes without accountability while youngsters just got punished).

 

What happens going forward with Treliving is anyone’s guess. I believe he is a very good GM who didn’t get the results expected, for a variety of reasons. He likely will have significant success in the future, but I am not sure that it will be with the Flames. I hear Pittsburg, and possibly Philly, needs a new GM.

 

[robrob74]

28 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

I find it difficult to judge Treliving directly based on the last few years. If rumours are true that ownership handcuffed him in multiple ways including forcing Sutter on him as coach, then how do you make a solid analysis?

 

As a GM, there are really 2 choices to make. 1: build a team with players who fit a style you want to see played, then hire a coach to work with those players. Or 2: Hire a certain coach with a known style / system and go get players that work for the coach.

 

Looking at players that Treliving has acquired / signed, his intention has always been option 1. To build the team based on the players. Finding the right coach has admittedly been a challenge for a variety of reasons. Coach ego, coach history of lacking empathy / racism, owner interference etc. 

 

Players like Hanifin, Huberdeau, Weegar, Coleman, Lindholm, Kadri, Stetcher, Markstrom etc. have never been defence first, grind it out system players. Some are very defensively responsible, but I would argue that (adding in Mike Smith and others), Treliving was looking to build more of a hybrid possession / transition team who spent little time in the D zone.

 

The problem is that coaches haven’t been able to consistently implement this style (see no coach lasted long enough and they each caused problems). With Sutter, he refuses to use players as intended, instead forcing players into his style, or else they are in the doghouse. He has also forced Treliving to get players to fit Sutter style hockey (Lewis, Ritchie etc.) rather than who are likely the best players available. Go get me vets who have nothing left to prove rather than me playing hungry young prospects who will likely make mistakes sort of scenario. (Yes vets made similar mistakes without accountability while youngsters just got punished).

 

What happens going forward with Treliving is anyone’s guess. I believe he is a very good GM who didn’t get the results expected, for a variety of reasons. He likely will have significant success in the future, but I am not sure that it will be with the Flames. I hear Pittsburg, and possibly Philly, needs a new GM.

 

Funny thing, since game 81 I had a hunch Pitts would be where he'd end up. I have Been feeling pitts like I feel the OT results lol. My ESP only works sometimes. 

[cross16]

The silence from the flames is getting more eerie by the day here. If we don’t hear from Sutter and or Treliving today it’s going to be hard not to assume something is up. 
 

not a great look. 

[The_People1]

27 minutes ago, cross16 said:

The silence from the flames is getting more eerie by the day here. If we don’t hear from Sutter and or Treliving today it’s going to be hard not to assume something is up. 
 

not a great look. 

 

I'm fine with that.  All parties need to have a good long talk about the next 3 to 5 years and get on the same page.  

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I'm fine with that.  All parties need to have a good long talk about the next 3 to 5 years and get on the same page.  

 

I'm also fine with it.  Let's get on with it.   Change is a good thing.

 

Nobody's going to end up homeless on the streets here, NHL Coach and GM positions are not lifelong positions, never have been.

 

I have much more comfort this offseason than last, actually.    I know that nobody is going to trade away our 1st round 2024 NHL draft pick.    I am very confident that we're not going to sign a player in their mid 30s to a $60m contract.

 

Options are far more limited, finally, and that is a Good thing.  At the end of the day, it's not about blame.  Nobody's going to have malice towards BT.  In the long run, nobody will have malice towards Sutter.   I'm willing to subscribe to the theory that the owners are the problem.   On the same token though, BT is not the solution if he can't stand up to him.    For all we know, he's realized that himself and thus doesn't want to stay on.   If so, my respect to him.

 

 

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I'm also fine with it.  Let's get on with it.   Change is a good thing.

 

Nobody's going to end up homeless on the streets here, NHL Coach and GM positions are not lifelong positions, never have been.

 

I have much more comfort this offseason than last, actually.    I know that nobody is going to trade away our 1st round 2024 NHL draft pick.    I am very confident that we're not going to sign a player in their mid 30s to a $60m contract.

 

Options are far more limited, finally, and that is a Good thing.  At the end of the day, it's not about blame.  Nobody's going to have malice towards BT.  In the long run, nobody will have malice towards Sutter.   I'm willing to subscribe to the theory that the owners are the problem.   On the same token though, BT is not the solution if he can't stand up to him.    For all we know, he's realized that himself and thus doesn't want to stay on.   If so, my respect to him.

 

 

 

Ya sure about that?  It's still a possibility, isn't it?

 

As far as the owners, if they determine a lot of the direction then they also can't dump failure on the GM.  So, BT has had a long runway where he isn't really held accountable.  If that is the case, then either a new GM is going to accept the limited decision making or they will promote from within because nobody will accept that.

 

I think what Cross was referring to was a sign that the problem exists between owners, GM and coach.  There is no immediate dismissal of GM or coach or both.  No comments coming post garbage day.  This smells like there is something major going on behind the scenes.  If all they were going to do was run back the same, they would have come out with the obligitory post season presser.  The players have already owned up (or not).  The golf course tee times are booked.

[cross16]

54 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I'm fine with that.  All parties need to have a good long talk about the next 3 to 5 years and get on the same page.  

 

 

I hope that is what is occurring, I really do. I think this silence confirms the power struggle that has long been hinted. Positive change can come from that for sure. 

 

But it's not great that we are here. 

[jjgallow]

48 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Ya sure about that?  It's still a possibility, isn't it?

 

As far as the owners, if they determine a lot of the direction then they also can't dump failure on the GM.  So, BT has had a long runway where he isn't really held accountable.  If that is the case, then either a new GM is going to accept the limited decision making or they will promote from within because nobody will accept that.

 

I think what Cross was referring to was a sign that the problem exists between owners, GM and coach.  There is no immediate dismissal of GM or coach or both.  No comments coming post garbage day.  This smells like there is something major going on behind the scenes.  If all they were going to do was run back the same, they would have come out with the obligitory post season presser.  The players have already owned up (or not).  The golf course tee times are booked.

 

Well I'm sure they won't trade away the 2024 first lol.

 

Even if the owners did do a ridiculous signing, I don't think it would change the reality of us going into a rebuild.

 

1-2 years ago players were open to the idea of signing here.   But currently I think the organisation would be limited, in terms of stars, to Evender Kane situations which I see as low probability.

 

Make enough poor decisions (whether GM or owners), and the decisions start to get taken out of your hands.

 

I think we all suspect that a problem has existed for a while.  You don't get to where we are overnight.   What we're talking about is that problem coming to the surface, and that is all.

 

It would be a very good thing for the City if the problem came to the surface.   Very hard to fix until that happens.

[cross16]

Official that Treliving is out. “Mutual” but I think the truth is he didn’t want to come back. 

the Maloney promotion is disappointing for sure. Very on brand for this organization. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

I'm not against change, just that this doesn't go far enough.  A new GM, whomever that may be, is not a bad thing maybe.  But that seems to imply that Sutter won and BT lost.  That is the bad part of this story.  

 

However, I will say that a new GM may decide to entirely change the coaching staff.  

[cross16]

Some will cheer but this is a really disappointing day I think. Can debate the individual moves he made/didn't make but the fact that a good GM doesn't want to stay says something. The fact that they promoted someone who is pretty underqualified to hire the next guy says something too. The fact that they prioritized someone like Sutter, despite many reasons to be worried, says something. i don't think it says anything positive about the future of this org. Change would not be bad but I don't think this is the type of change the club needs. 

 

I also think the Flames are losing a really quality person here. Treliving steered this club through some really difficult times and did it with minimal support from ownership/his boss. He brought in quality people, he drafted and scouted well, he delivered 2 of the best regular seasons this club has ever seen and he built the best AHL team for 2 years in a row now, something I've never seen be done here personally. He is not without mistakes, wasn't perfect, but IMO he did a very good job running this club, made the Flames a quality place again and I personally have little optimism the Flames are going to hire someone who is going to be better. 

 

 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

The silence from the flames is getting more eerie by the day here. If we don’t hear from Sutter and or Treliving today it’s going to be hard not to assume something is up. 
 

not a great look. 

on the Fan they said that they were going to do media today.

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

I'm not against change, just that this doesn't go far enough.  A new GM, whomever that may be, is not a bad thing maybe.  But that seems to imply that Sutter won and BT lost.  That is the bad part of this story.  

 

However, I will say that a new GM may decide to entirely change the coaching staff.  

I think BT made the decision to move on even before this season started. Maybe it was the Sutter extension?

 

but I believe it is due to not having professional autonomy to do what he wanted.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

on the Fan they said that they were going to do media today.

 

1PM local time.

[jjgallow]

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Some will cheer but this is a really disappointing day I think. Can debate the individual moves he made/didn't make but the fact that a good GM doesn't want to stay says something. The fact that they promoted someone who is pretty underqualified to hire the next guy says something too. The fact that they prioritized someone like Sutter, despite many reasons to be worried, says something. i don't think it says anything positive about the future of this org. Change would not be bad but I don't think this is the type of change the club needs. 

 

I also think the Flames are losing a really quality person here. Treliving steered this club through some really difficult times and did it with minimal support from ownership/his boss. He brought in quality people, he drafted and scouted well, he delivered 2 of the best regular seasons this club has ever seen and he built the best AHL team for 2 years in a row now, something I've never seen be done here personally. He is not without mistakes, wasn't perfect, but IMO he did a very good job running this club, made the Flames a quality place again and I personally have little optimism the Flames are going to hire someone who is going to be better. 

 

 

 

As someone who has consistently whined and complained about BT,

 

I instantly think more of him that he possibly did not want to stay, and it makes the notion that many of the bad decisions were not his, very tangible.

 

I will never go as far as saying he did a good job.  We are in total disarray with no future for years.  On his watch.

 

But was it really him doing a bad job, or someone else doing a bad job?   I am totally fine now subscribing to the belief that it was very possibly not him.    

 

I need to learn more about Don Maloney before forming an opinion.   What I have to go on now is quite typical lol:

https://www.nhl.com/coyotes/news/maloney-named-nhl-general-manager-of-the-year/c-530754

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/coyotes/2016/04/11/sources-don-maloney-out-arizona-coyotes-gm/82890528/

 

I'm not cheering, because I agree that this may not solve the root issue.

[phoenix66]

early betting favourite for me .. Dean Lombardi..

not saying hes my choice, but if you want the guy that knows how to build Sutters team?  hes the guy 

[The_Tribal Chief]

Kinda Seen the writing on the wall after we didnt make the playoffs mutual or not changes need to be made and there isnt much you can do to the team

 

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

early betting favourite for me .. Dean Lombardi..

not saying hes my choice, but if you want the guy that knows how to build Sutters team?  hes the guy 

 Mike Futa?

[Bruce T]

48 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Some will cheer but this is a really disappointing day I think. Can debate the individual moves he made/didn't make but the fact that a good GM doesn't want to stay says something. The fact that they promoted someone who is pretty underqualified to hire the next guy says something too. The fact that they prioritized someone like Sutter, despite many reasons to be worried, says something. i don't think it says anything positive about the future of this org. Change would not be bad but I don't think this is the type of change the club needs. 

 

I also think the Flames are losing a really quality person here. Treliving steered this club through some really difficult times and did it with minimal support from ownership/his boss. He brought in quality people, he drafted and scouted well, he delivered 2 of the best regular seasons this club has ever seen and he built the best AHL team for 2 years in a row now, something I've never seen be done here personally. He is not without mistakes, wasn't perfect, but IMO he did a very good job running this club, made the Flames a quality place again and I personally have little optimism the Flames are going to hire someone who is going to be better. 

 

 

Good post - I agree 100% - if Sutter stays expect more of the same next year !

[phoenix66]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 Mike Futa?

He's #2 for the same reason for me ....  again not my faves, just for betting purposes lol...   

[conundrumed]

56 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Some will cheer but this is a really disappointing day I think. Can debate the individual moves he made/didn't make but the fact that a good GM doesn't want to stay says something. The fact that they promoted someone who is pretty underqualified to hire the next guy says something too. The fact that they prioritized someone like Sutter, despite many reasons to be worried, says something. i don't think it says anything positive about the future of this org. Change would not be bad but I don't think this is the type of change the club needs. 

 

I also think the Flames are losing a really quality person here. Treliving steered this club through some really difficult times and did it with minimal support from ownership/his boss. He brought in quality people, he drafted and scouted well, he delivered 2 of the best regular seasons this club has ever seen and he built the best AHL team for 2 years in a row now, something I've never seen be done here personally. He is not without mistakes, wasn't perfect, but IMO he did a very good job running this club, made the Flames a quality place again and I personally have little optimism the Flames are going to hire someone who is going to be better. 

 

 

Yup. Here ends what always looked like a power struggle. There were instances where BT would say something publicly only to watch Sutter pour gasoline on it.

I'm actually happy for BT. Things calmed from appearing toxic with JG and MT leaving to even more toxic now.