Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[cross16]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Whether it was the pro scouts or the players brought in over time that just didn't quite fit, the results were a lot of wasted picks for what Connie had left to use.  The Gustophson, Forbort, Jatnkrok, etc trades were the ones that bothered me, since we just took on TDL players for the playoffs.  Jarnkrok should have been a better fit, but perhaps the wrong players on a line with him.  A lot of picks for a 12 playoff games.  

 

What is funny that the pro scouts looked at Sharky and saw something there.  Or the right time to call up Pospisil and Zary.  I'm not exactly sure how the D that we got from DAL and SJS will work out, but only the Dallas trade is a costly one.  I liked so far what I have seen, but who knows.

 

Pro scouting is the area that does not come up enough IMO when it comes to talking about the future. If we want to discuss what lessons the Flames are/are not learning from the past their pro scouting should be high up on that list.  I'm not willing to give them credit for Sharangovich that's a matter of opportunity not good pro scouting, as is Kuzmenko. Now if i'm wrong on Miromanov then not were talking but let's see. for sure an area that needs to be improved. Okhotiuk is not giving me confidence that they've improved in this area but let's see. 

 

There were a lot of picks spent no question and in some cases it's frustration. I don't mind the Jankork, Toffoli, Carpenter trades but ya when your spending picks on rentals to barely get into the playoffs that isn't good. When you spending a 2nd round pick on a goalie who you probably should have done more digging on to fit into your organization, only to lose him for nothing 1 year later that isn't good. That goes back to the situation though, if your building to win you need to get assets and assets cost you picks. 

[conundrumed]

9 hours ago, cross16 said:

There were a lot of picks spent no question and in some cases it's frustration. I don't mind the Jankork, Toffoli, Carpenter trades but ya when your spending picks on rentals to barely get into the playoffs that isn't good. When you spending a 2nd round pick on a goalie who you probably should have done more digging on to fit into your organization, only to lose him for nothing 1 year later that isn't good. That goes back to the situation though, if your building to win you need to get assets and assets cost you picks

Yup. All those yesterdays.

Conroy (forcibly, I guess) had to move guys, had no cap.

You're rebuilding. It's evident. Conroy is steering it well imo. He's doing a nice job of doing it quietly.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Yup. All those yesterdays.

Conroy (forcibly, I guess) had to move guys, had no cap.

You're rebuilding. It's evident. Conroy is steering it well imo. He's doing a nice job of doing it quietly.

 

They will totally be yesterdays when the resulting players retire and the Flames are a contender with prospects.

 

@cross16 listed off like 72 GMs in a row that all had same behaviour.    I think it's okay for us to want the actual behaviour to change, rather than just constantly saying it was in the past.

 

I also hope Conroy is that changemaker.   Not proven yet, but reason for hope.

[robrob74]

38 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

They will totally be yesterdays when the resulting players retire and the Flames are a contender with prospects.

 

@cross16 listed off like 72 GMs in a row that all had same behaviour.    I think it's okay for us to want the actual behaviour to change, rather than just constantly saying it was in the past.

 

I also hope Conroy is that changemaker.   Not proven yet, but reason for hope.

I agree with the desire for Changed behaviour, plus, to think just because most other teams or GM's do it so it is normal. Why be normal? Do things that "work" for this team, not the 20 other teams that have problems maintaining their systems. 

[cross16]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

They will totally be yesterdays when the resulting players retire and the Flames are a contender with prospects.

 

@cross16 listed off like 72 GMs in a row that all had same behaviour.    I think it's okay for us to want the actual behaviour to change, rather than just constantly saying it was in the past.

 

I also hope Conroy is that changemaker.   Not proven yet, but reason for hope.

 

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

I agree with the desire for Changed behaviour, plus, to think just because most other teams or GM's do it so it is normal. Why be normal? Do things that "work" for this team, not the 20 other teams that have problems maintaining their systems. 

 

I've said multiple times the Flames should be doing things differently. The Flames are a small market club and they should act like it. Focus on the draft, always be in pick acquisition mode and don't get attached to players as they get later in their career. Don't spend big in UFA. 

 

I hope they learn and grow i'm just very skeptical it's going to happen because I don't think the direction is changing. Hope to be wrong. 

[The_People1]

10 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

 

I've said multiple times the Flames should be doing things differently. The Flames are a small market club and they should act like it. Focus on the draft, always be in pick acquisition mode and don't get attached to players as they get later in their career. Don't spend big in UFA. 

 

I hope they learn and grow i'm just very skeptical it's going to happen because I don't think the direction is changing. Hope to be wrong. 

 

Right on.  Flames need to be ready to move on from 30+ players and be ready to rotate in young players.  Only commit long term to core superstar players.  Don't go UFA hunting.  Challenge prospects to step up to fill roles instead.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Right on.  Flames need to be ready to move on from 30+ players and be ready to rotate in young players.  Only commit long term to core superstar players.  Don't go UFA hunting.  Challenge prospects to step up to fill roles instead.

 

I often wonder when long term makes sense.   Maybe it only makes sense if on the verge of a cup win, or when the player agrees to a home town discount.

 

What if....Oilers didn't re-sign McDavid, and put him on the trade block?   We just assume it would be terrible for them.    Well it probably wouldn't be popular with the marketing department.   But.... what's the return for McDavid?

It's basically a whole new team.   And there's franchises out there (Ie., New York, etc) that would pay it.

 

Everyone praises Treliving with his Numerous long term signings, the latest one Matthews.

        Who was a non-factor in the playoffs.

        What's the price on Matthews?   
        I reckon the price was a whole new winning team.

 

For a small market team, you gotta be good at that draft.  You gotta have that second-to-none scouting department.   You gotta have the full coaching staff, skating stuff, all of it.    Once you're actually good at it, and you have an actual pipeline, trading away older players for MASSIVE returns is a little less scary.

It only seems scary when there's nothing in the pipeline...and that's when poor choices start.

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I often wonder when long term makes sense.   Maybe it only makes sense if on the verge of a cup win, or when the player agrees to a home town discount.

 

What if....Oilers didn't re-sign McDavid, and put him on the trade block?   We just assume it would be terrible for them.    Well it probably wouldn't be popular with the marketing department.   But.... what's the return for McDavid?

It's basically a whole new team.   And there's franchises out there (Ie., New York, etc) that would pay it.

 

Everyone praises Treliving with his Numerous long term signings, the latest one Matthews.

        Who was a non-factor in the playoffs.

        What's the price on Matthews?   
        I reckon the price was a whole new winning team.

 

For a small market team, you gotta be good at that draft.  You gotta have that second-to-none scouting department.   You gotta have the full coaching staff, skating stuff, all of it.    Once you're actually good at it, and you have an actual pipeline, trading away older players for MASSIVE returns is a little less scary.

It only seems scary when there's nothing in the pipeline...and that's when poor choices start.

 

Yes Cup contending.  Why commit to Kadri, Weegar and Huberdeau if given a second chance when the team is going nowhere fast? 

 

Also, if it's a Giordano, Tkachuk, McDavid, MacKinnon, etc... franchise level player, then commit long term and build around them to win.

[robrob74]

46 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yes Cup contending.  Why commit to Kadri, Weegar and Huberdeau if given a second chance when the team is going nowhere fast? 

 

Also, if it's a Giordano, Tkachuk, McDavid, MacKinnon, etc... franchise level player, then commit long term and build around them to win.

I wondered if Tkachuk was a guy to build around without a C... as lone player he can't be enough... the Flames didn't have enough to compete in the playoffs when he was here.

 He works in Florida, we aren't deep enough for him. 

[The_People1]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I wondered if Tkachuk was a guy to build around without a C... as lone player he can't be enough... the Flames didn't have enough to compete in the playoffs when he was here.

 He works in Florida, we aren't deep enough for him. 

 

Trues and you can't commit to Tkachuk without committing to Gaudreau, etc.  But I was just saying, there's a time to commit to 30+ players (or sign players beyond 30)... but Flames should manage their team to be as cost efficient as possible and that means staying away from the UFA market.  Build from the draft and make trades with teams thinking that short term while we think long term.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yes Cup contending.  Why commit to Kadri, Weegar and Huberdeau if given a second chance when the team is going nowhere fast? 

 

Also, if it's a Giordano, Tkachuk, McDavid, MacKinnon, etc... franchise level player, then commit long term and build around them to win.

 

 

But I mean...actual contending...

 

elite 1st line D, forwards that weigh more than 150 lbs,   goalies that weren't overplayed.  leading standings.

 

Not just "finished top 10 in standings so we will go for it"

 

If it's not....imminent, then, honestly, i think there's an arguement as a small market team for rotating the older guys out even when you're making the playoffs.   Because you Should have the pipeline to do it.

[robrob74]

48 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

But I mean...actual contending...

 

elite 1st line D, forwards that weigh more than 150 lbs,   goalies that weren't overplayed.  leading standings.

 

Not just "finished top 10 in standings so we will go for it"

 

If it's not....imminent, then, honestly, i think there's an arguement as a small market team for rotating the older guys out even when you're making the playoffs.   Because you Should have the pipeline to do it.

It's why I didn't get the forbort and Gus trades that year. Spend picks to up the slight chance of it breaking meaningful, kind of like seeing something on sale you don't need and buying it because it is on sale. 

[conundrumed]

22 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

They will totally be yesterdays when the resulting players retire and the Flames are a contender with prospects.

 

@cross16 listed off like 72 GMs in a row that all had same behaviour.    I think it's okay for us to want the actual behaviour to change, rather than just constantly saying it was in the past.

 

I also hope Conroy is that changemaker.   Not proven yet, but reason for hope.

Now imagine BT talking to Shanahan, my take, of course:

BT: what's our limit on Matthews?

BS: No limit

BT: Can I look into moving one of Tavares, Marner or Nylander, in that order?

BS: No

BT: well, Blockchain

BS: just get tough guys. Reaves would be perfect.

BT: He wants 3 years *laughs nervously*

BS: Just do it

BT: Can we talk about me getting some autonomy?

BS: You have autonomy, after doing what I want first

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Now imagine BT talking to Shanahan, my take, of course:

BT: what's our limit on Matthews?

BS: No limit

BT: Can I look into moving one of Tavares, Marner or Nylander, in that order?

BS: No

BT: well, Blockchain

BS: just get tough guys. Reaves would be perfect.

BT: He wants 3 years *laughs nervously*

BS: Just do it

BT: Can we talk about me getting some autonomy?

BS: You have autonomy, after doing what I want first

 

it Does sound a lot like BT, no arguements here

 

https://torontosun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/leafs-never-on-verge-of-winning-anything-in-shanahan-years

 

[jjgallow]

I been trying to lay low.  but, I can't.  I feel compelled to say this.

 

Both Matthews and Nylander were put in all the final regular season games so that they could appease fans and chase regular-season accolades, despite both of them having put in a lot of high risk minutes and in need of a couple nights off.  

 

Weird, but...okay.

 

Then they both get sick early in playoffs, and/or show concussion-like symptoms.  not a shock.

 

Both are played anyway, and are totally ineffective.   Right.  Of course.

 

Then Matthews takes a hit, and For Sure has a concussion, or "head injury signs" as Treliving put it. Because that's the kind of direct, honest straight shooter he is.

 

Yeah played him Anyway, despite the doctors leaking rumours that it would be incredibly dangerous to.   And he was totally ineffective.  right.

 

 

Putting all the owner and coach and arena and "axe to burn" stuff aside, and putting aside all the hierarchical roles and "process" and the rest of that junk, and roles and responsibilities and how the GM is never really at fault,

 

BT let this happen under his watch, and... No, it's for sure Not why he fired the coach.  Very likely the opposite actually.  It's...Total, and it is Total, Complete BS to be happening in 2024.

 

He should not be a GM.   He should not be in hockey.   He is terrible, JUST for this, let alone all the other stuff he deflects.   This is the ultimate in prioritising short term benefit.  It's thinking short term ahead of the brain health of your best players.

 

No excuses for it.  Don't care if the owners told him to do it, don't care if it was the coach's decision, don't care if the players lied about it, don't care if the doctors lied about it.   I seen it in Calgary, I seen it in Toronto with same GM, he should be gone.  Period.

 

A GM in 2024 who circumvents or allows others to circumvent player safety should not be a GM.

 

Glad it's not our problem here.   Toronto will be Extremely lucky if this doesn't become a larger issue.   >50% chance that one or both of them does not ever play the same again.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

I been trying to lay low.  but, I can't.  I feel compelled to say this.

 

Both Matthews and Nylander were put in all the final regular season games so that they could appease fans and chase regular-season accolades, despite both of them having put in a lot of high risk minutes and in need of a couple nights off.  

 

Weird, but...okay.

 

Then they both get sick early in playoffs, and/or show concussion-like symptoms.  not a shock.

 

Both are played anyway, and are totally ineffective.   Right.  Of course.

 

Then Matthews takes a hit, and For Sure has a concussion, or "head injury signs" as Treliving put it. Because that's the kind of direct, honest straight shooter he is.

 

Yeah played him Anyway, despite the doctors leaking rumours that it would be incredibly dangerous to.   And he was totally ineffective.  right.

 

 

Putting all the owner and coach and arena and "axe to burn" stuff aside, and putting aside all the hierarchical roles and "process" and the rest of that junk, and roles and responsibilities and how the GM is never really at fault,

 

BT let this happen under his watch, and... No, it's for sure Not why he fired the coach.  Very likely the opposite actually.  It's...Total, and it is Total, Complete BS to be happening in 2024.

 

He should not be a GM.   He should not be in hockey.   He is terrible, JUST for this, let alone all the other stuff he deflects.   This is the ultimate in prioritising short term benefit.  It's thinking short term ahead of the brain health of your best players.

 

No excuses for it.  Don't care if the owners told him to do it, don't care if it was the coach's decision, don't care if the players lied about it, don't care if the doctors lied about it.   I seen it in Calgary, I seen it in Toronto with same GM, he should be gone.  Period.

 

A GM in 2024 who circumvents or allows others to circumvent player safety should not be a GM.

 

Glad it's not our problem here.   Toronto will be Extremely lucky if this doesn't become a larger issue.   >50% chance that one or both of them does not ever play the same again.

The ridiculous axe-grinding continues. Give it a rest already, it's childish.

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, conundrumed said:

The ridiculous axe-grinding continues. Give it a rest already, it's childish.

 

👎

[travel_dude]

11 hours ago, jjgallow said:

I been trying to lay low.  but, I can't.  I feel compelled to say this.

 

Both Matthews and Nylander were put in all the final regular season games so that they could appease fans and chase regular-season accolades, despite both of them having put in a lot of high risk minutes and in need of a couple nights off.  

 

Weird, but...okay.

 

Then they both get sick early in playoffs, and/or show concussion-like symptoms.  not a shock.

 

Both are played anyway, and are totally ineffective.   Right.  Of course.

 

Then Matthews takes a hit, and For Sure has a concussion, or "head injury signs" as Treliving put it. Because that's the kind of direct, honest straight shooter he is.

 

Yeah played him Anyway, despite the doctors leaking rumours that it would be incredibly dangerous to.   And he was totally ineffective.  right.

 

 

Putting all the owner and coach and arena and "axe to burn" stuff aside, and putting aside all the hierarchical roles and "process" and the rest of that junk, and roles and responsibilities and how the GM is never really at fault,

 

BT let this happen under his watch, and... No, it's for sure Not why he fired the coach.  Very likely the opposite actually.  It's...Total, and it is Total, Complete BS to be happening in 2024.

 

He should not be a GM.   He should not be in hockey.   He is terrible, JUST for this, let alone all the other stuff he deflects.   This is the ultimate in prioritising short term benefit.  It's thinking short term ahead of the brain health of your best players.

 

No excuses for it.  Don't care if the owners told him to do it, don't care if it was the coach's decision, don't care if the players lied about it, don't care if the doctors lied about it.   I seen it in Calgary, I seen it in Toronto with same GM, he should be gone.  Period.

 

A GM in 2024 who circumvents or allows others to circumvent player safety should not be a GM.

 

Glad it's not our problem here.   Toronto will be Extremely lucky if this doesn't become a larger issue.   >50% chance that one or both of them does not ever play the same again.

 

Point to the guy that has spanned all of TO's losses in the playoffs against BOS; Shanny.

The GM had zero say as to who played those final games.

The coach had to appease the players.

A new GM isn't going to have much input.

Shanny would call in Keefe and BT separate to tell them what is what.

 

Just like Burke initially told BT who to get, Shanny told BT.

This little circle is your area of influence.

We pay you to tow the line.

The fans said what they want to see.

Shanny took that and his wide knowledge of hockey and decided what to keep.

 

[jjgallow]

54 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Point to the guy that has spanned all of TO's losses in the playoffs against BOS; Shanny.

The GM had zero say as to who played those final games.

The coach had to appease the players.

A new GM isn't going to have much input.

Shanny would call in Keefe and BT separate to tell them what is what.

 

Just like Burke initially told BT who to get, Shanny told BT.

This little circle is your area of influence.

We pay you to tow the line.

The fans said what they want to see.

Shanny took that and his wide knowledge of hockey and decided what to keep.

 

 

I hear you.   But, player safety, any kind of safety really, is different than the typical blame game.

 

And it has to be different, because safety matters and the blame game has never affected change.

 

If it came from Shanny, and it might have, I'm cool to point the finger at him. 

 

But, anyone who actually listened to him is equally responsible.   Treliving, the coach.  The doctors if they agreed to it (but I don't think they did).

 

In all scenarios, BT and the coach get the finger point.   Should Shanny be included?  probably.

 

More heads need to roll in the office if we really want to reduce heads rolling on the ice.

[conundrumed]

17 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I hear you.   But, player safety, any kind of safety really, is different than the typical blame game.

 

And it has to be different, because safety matters and the blame game has never affected change.

 

If it came from Shanny, and it might have, I'm cool to point the finger at him. 

 

But, anyone who actually listened to him is equally responsible.   Treliving, the coach.  The doctors if they agreed to it (but I don't think they did).

 

In all scenarios, BT and the coach get the finger point.   Should Shanny be included?  probably.

 

More heads need to roll in the office if we really want to reduce heads rolling on the ice.

Okay class, so the word of the day today is:

 

Conjecture:

• the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
• an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.

  Synonyms: hypothesis, theory, supposition, inference, surmise

[jjgallow]

13 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Okay class, so the word of the day today is:

 

Conjecture:

• the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
• an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.

  Synonyms: hypothesis, theory, supposition, inference, surmise

 

This kind of BS is how hockey has stayed 40 years behind all the other major sports for player safety.  

 

If you know the player had a concussion, and the GM won't say the word concussion and lets him play with said concussion, you have all your information.

 

If you think player safety is something to twist to your liking and you're too lazy to evolve, then maybe you shouldn't be in hockey either.

[conundrumed]

So, kids, tomorrow we'll explore the word, haughty.

A reminder, Friday's assignment on examples of an ideologue is due tomorrow.

[travel_dude]

On 5/13/2024 at 1:07 PM, jjgallow said:

 

I hear you.   But, player safety, any kind of safety really, is different than the typical blame game.

 

And it has to be different, because safety matters and the blame game has never affected change.

 

If it came from Shanny, and it might have, I'm cool to point the finger at him. 

 

But, anyone who actually listened to him is equally responsible.   Treliving, the coach.  The doctors if they agreed to it (but I don't think they did).

 

In all scenarios, BT and the coach get the finger point.   Should Shanny be included?  probably.

 

More heads need to roll in the office if we really want to reduce heads rolling on the ice.

 

Gosh, who would ever listen to their boss when they know he is wrong?

You can blame the GM for decisions that he has complete control over.

A new GM has a smaller circle.  

Considering what he was left with by Dubas, I think he had a very small circle.

 

BT was probably thinking that TO had less interference by the owners than CGY.

Was probably initially cool with the Pres having input instead.

That lasted until the draft was over.

I doubt he had any ability to trade the core 4 if he thought it would benefit the team the most.

 

I don't have any real insight, just how things appeared to shake out there over the years.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Gosh, who would ever listen to their boss when they know he is wrong?

You can blame the GM for decisions that he has complete control over.

A new GM has a smaller circle.  

Considering what he was left with by Dubas, I think he had a very small circle.

 

BT was probably thinking that TO had less interference by the owners than CGY.

Was probably initially cool with the Pres having input instead.

That lasted until the draft was over.

I doubt he had any ability to trade the core 4 if he thought it would benefit the team the most.

 

I don't have any real insight, just how things appeared to shake out there over the years.

 

It doesn't work like that in safety.

 

If BT was told to violate concussion protocol or put his players at risk, and he refused and was disciplined for it, he'd get the largest compensation package in sports or win an equally large lawsuit.   100%.

 

If he agrees to put his players at risk, then

1.  He is a terrible human being

2. Him and his boss will be equally liable in any lawsuit that would come of it.

 

The doctors know all about this.

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/latest-news/the-doctor-pulled-him-why-auston-matthews-had-to-leave-before-the-third-period-of-the-maple-leafs-game-4-loss-to-the-bruins

 

I'm not saying this will go that far, it very rarely does.   But if push comes to shove, that's the shove.

 

Anyway, I see a trend and that trend is BT, not the owners.   I don't have any special knowledge past that either, but I'm glad he's not here anymore (feel free to move the thread lol)

[conundrumed]

44 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

It doesn't work like that in safety.

 

If BT was told to violate concussion protocol or put his players at risk, and he refused and was disciplined for it, he'd get the largest compensation package in sports or win an equally large lawsuit.   100%.

 

If he agrees to put his players at risk, then

1.  He is a terrible human being

2. Him and his boss will be equally liable in any lawsuit that would come of it.

 

The doctors know all about this.

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/latest-news/the-doctor-pulled-him-why-auston-matthews-had-to-leave-before-the-third-period-of-the-maple-leafs-game-4-loss-to-the-bruins

 

I'm not saying this will go that far, it very rarely does.   But if push comes to shove, that's the shove.

 

Anyway, I see a trend and that trend is BT, not the owners.   I don't have any special knowledge past that either, but I'm glad he's not here anymore (feel free to move the thread lol)

What's with the link? It doesn't support your concussion-protocol argument. You're too friendly with the "if" word.

Dude. You are trying to drive a narrative that is nothing short of vindictive, imho. Bumping BT and Sutter threads confirm that.

I can't speak for everyone, but I, for one, prefer to live in the present and not run down people from the past.

What is your premise here? I'm struggling to see it as anything outside of a jilted ex-girlfriend.

Like, what are you doing?

Treliving gave it his best shot, some things worked, some didn't. It's that way for all GMs. They have a mandate that they work under.

Did Boston Pizza fire you? What gives?

Now you're on a player safety rant.

The more you do this Satoshi Nakamoto, the more I'm coming back. Quit the Blockchaining railroading. It's petty and generally full of the Satoshi Nakamoto that you're surmising as correct.

It's facepalm.