Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

This is what makes draft analysis tough because I would counter by saying have they missed on anyone?

 

From 2015 to 2020 they took 8 players outside of NA, only one of them was in the top 60 and that was Kylington. Think we'd agree they didn't miss on that one. Rasmus only played 1 year in Barrie so pretty fair to assume he was scouted heavily in Sweden too. 

 

Have to factor in opportunity there too, it's not just a scouting thing IMO. 

 

Well, Kylington was a top 20 faller, so he was well known.

I don't question that pick.

Nor Ras, who would have stood out, especially if they were scouting Mangiapane.

 

Regarding the other picls from those years.

Yes, they were late one.

But whether we missed out due to the picks is tough to call.

[The_People1]

8 hours ago, tmac70 said:

It's a business that needs to make money, patience is not in the cards. So if I told you to look, Peeps, we need to be patient, your comments would be how much,  how long, and what my  ROI is in the end.  It's a gamble, that you get a franchise guy, the right players to become competitive and injuries don't happen and they play well enough to make noise, odds are 70/30 that this happens. Or you spend to the cap hoping you get the right players, and pay to make said players stay all in hopes that you get to the playoffs and have a miracle postseason like 2004. Odds are 50/50 on that. 

 

We have never tanked to the point we obtained a generational player for this club and never will the cost factor is too much and has never worked. Really we have had 1-4th and 2- 6th place draft choices in the past 8 years, none of which play here. JG and MT  put Hash Rate in the seats at the Dome, they were Edwards's ticket to sales, can understand why he lost his Satoshi Nakamoto when they left.

 

Whoever gets Bedard is acquiring a cash cow, he puts Hash Rate in the seats. Prime example Beadrd played in the Dome and sold out a junior game. So the dome had 18,000 plus to see a kid in Junior play, not the teams. He didn't disappoint either. Who do we have that is a huge drawing card to put Hash Rate in the Dome or on the road, Kadri, Huberdeau, Pelts lol. When CGY comes to town outside of family and friends no one is knocking down doors to get tickets. 

 

Money is the problem for sures.  This franchise also wants/needs a cinderella run to convince its citizens that it's a great idea to build a $1-bil arena with tax dollars.  If the team is losing and irrelevant, then that makes things harder... politically.

 

And so we are one of those teams... in one year and out the next.  Stuck in mediocrity.

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

i agree!

 

id hate to trade too 3 drafts all the time and have no great prospects to go forward with, as often as we do. I wonder if we even just decided to now keep draft picks and concentrate on development and graduate players accordingly. I mentioned wanting to be like Carolina awhile ago so agree that is the way to go. 
 

we seemed to draft better once we started having direction or listened to what the scouts had to say instead of whatever we seemed to be doing before Feaster. That seemed to be the turning point, even though he was horrible in most ways. 
 

if we believe in our scouting, and up European scouting, then keep picks, build as we go from here. We aren't going to ever rebuild until it is absolutely needed.

 

I want what we have now to continue to mentor the youth. Possible Sutter isn't the guy for that. Albeit, he likes guys who play with good consistent effort and skill.
 

So how do we find that in the draft? 

I think concentrating on the draft is the way to go. We've traded too many picks away over the years, in a rebuild. 

 

It's hard when owners are on your back pushing for results.  As a GM, you hit UFA and buy the results.  No time to wait for prospects to develop.  In fact, use prospects as currency at TDL for rentals.

 

 

[travel_dude]

13 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

It's hard when owners are on your back pushing for results.  As a GM, you hit UFA and buy the results.  No time to wait for prospects to develop.  In fact, use prospects as currency at TDL for rentals.

 

 

 

As far as I am concerned, the GM has done the best he could this year to do a re-tool, while still pleasing the owners and their choice for the coaching.

 

Huberdeau was going to have trouble adjusting to the completely different style of play.  Kadri is a support player not the difference maker.  Weegar played with an awesome offensive minded D, so asking him to play with the best pure shutdown D on the team is questionable.  Would have fit better with Kylington or Ras. 

 

The failing of the team are on the owners and coach and players.  Too many games the players look like they are gassed or disinterested, but more likely fed up.  Tired of playing something that guarantees you have to fight to win every time.  Early on, the coach saw wins as the right time to make a change to fix something.  Now he looks at a close loss as the time to keep it the same.  Giving Pelletier to Huberdeau seems like brilliance, but anyone could see that from his first game.  Scratching Lucic for lousy play was a good call, but it was just a time out to get Lucic back in the top 6. 

 

The owners want playoffs.  But if the GM believes that the sum of the parts is better than what this coach can get out of them, the owners need to back the GM and allow for a coaching change.  The team was built to win in the playoffs, but the coach can't get them there.  Not without adding a game changer.  And that's the problem.  Used too much to get to this version of the team, so can't get the needed piece to get there.  

 

Yeah, I know.  We are as likely to fail in the playoffs due to goaltending or something.

No 3 point games, though.  No shootouts.

In a 7 game series, the other team would lose 2 players to injury.

That is what we do.

But we can't get there with the existing playbook.

 

RANT OVER

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

As far as I am concerned, the GM has done the best he could this year to do a re-tool, while still pleasing the owners and their choice for the coaching.

 

Huberdeau was going to have trouble adjusting to the completely different style of play.  Kadri is a support player not the difference maker.  Weegar played with an awesome offensive minded D, so asking him to play with the best pure shutdown D on the team is questionable.  Would have fit better with Kylington or Ras. 

 

The failing of the team are on the owners and coach and players.  Too many games the players look like they are gassed or disinterested, but more likely fed up.  Tired of playing something that guarantees you have to fight to win every time.  Early on, the coach saw wins as the right time to make a change to fix something.  Now he looks at a close loss as the time to keep it the same.  Giving Pelletier to Huberdeau seems like brilliance, but anyone could see that from his first game.  Scratching Lucic for lousy play was a good call, but it was just a time out to get Lucic back in the top 6. 

 

The owners want playoffs.  But if the GM believes that the sum of the parts is better than what this coach can get out of them, the owners need to back the GM and allow for a coaching change.  The team was built to win in the playoffs, but the coach can't get them there.  Not without adding a game changer.  And that's the problem.  Used too much to get to this version of the team, so can't get the needed piece to get there.  

 

Yeah, I know.  We are as likely to fail in the playoffs due to goaltending or something.

No 3 point games, though.  No shootouts.

In a 7 game series, the other team would lose 2 players to injury.

That is what we do.

But we can't get there with the existing playbook.

 

RANT OVER

 

I still think it's horrible that we are the highest paying team in player salaries but aren't even close to #1 in the league in the standings. It is horrible that we are not even in the playoffs and paying that much, plus not having an actual "game-breaker" in the lineup and right up to the cap. It's a bit ridiculous. But I've basically given up on the team this year. I come here to see how things are going, while the product is too hard to watch. I was more interested in the team when we were in the rebuild, at least there were players to look forward to. 

[conundrumed]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I still think it's horrible that we are the highest paying team in player salaries but aren't even close to #1 in the league in the standings. It is horrible that we are not even in the playoffs and paying that much, plus not having an actual "game-breaker" in the lineup and right up to the cap. It's a bit ridiculous. But I've basically given up on the team this year. I come here to see how things are going, while the product is too hard to watch. I was more interested in the team when we were in the rebuild, at least there were players to look forward to. 

meh, don't take it personally. If nothing was broken there'd be nothing to talk about.

They'll still be here tomorrow. Someone will make a big save, someone will score a big goal. It will be magic. Just you wait and see.

Disclaimer: I didn't say it would be the Flames.

Have fun with it, come what may...

[rickross]

With all the chatter around BT’s time as Flames GM coming to an end…God help us if they promote Sutter to GM

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, rickross said:

With all the chatter around BT’s time as Flames GM coming to an end…God help us if they promote Sutter to GM

 

Perhaps the loud noise coming from the fans wil be heard more clearly; fire the coach.

Every game we lose is "missed that open net" or "hit the bar" or "we score on the PP and it's a different game".

We are not simply an unlucky team.  PDO says we are, but we could score more and still lose.

Had we made it 2-1 last night, it's likely they score 2 more.

We make it 3-1, they score to make it 4-1.

Vegas gets a tying goal and we hit the crossbar on the PP.

We had one shot in the period, not including that.

They don't tie it up, we probably still end in OT.

 

It's tough to watch us build momentum then see the coach throw out the 4th line, because they play every 4th shift.  We let teams back in because we play to not lose when we get a lead after 1 or 2.  Sutter would have been the perfect coach for Burke.  Get me some truculence.  Hunter Smith would be a middle 6 player.  Brouwer would be top line.  

[The_People1]

So when is BT's contract over?  July 1st?

 

Also do we let BT run the draft without an extension?

[Heartbreaker]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

So when is BT's contract over?  July 1st?

 

Also do we let BT run the draft without an extension?

 

And these are good questions. I'm of the opinion that they should keep him, although, I realize not everyone agrees. I wonder if he's a lame duck, and maybe that's why we haven't seen anything in these few days where teams have been extremely busy. I'm not in favour of the scorched earth rebuild that you are, and I'm sure that the Boston game made things more complicated than they should be, but I'm a bit disappointed that we haven't seen any movement.

 

Love.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

And these are good questions. I'm of the opinion that they should keep him, although, I realize not everyone agrees. I wonder if he's a lame duck, and maybe that's why we haven't seen anything in these few days where teams have been extremely busy. I'm not in favour of the scorched earth rebuild that you are, and I'm sure that the Boston game made things more complicated than they should be, but I'm a bit disappointed that we haven't seen any movement.

 

Love.

i am in favour of a rebuild or tool. But for me, I want an organic rebuild or tool. Keep picks, don't kid ourselves when we are more than fringe NHLer additions at the deadline that has cost a lot. Get better pro scouting and have a direction. Be faster... keep draft picks. 

[rickross]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

i am in favour of a rebuild or tool. But for me, I want an organic rebuild or tool. Keep picks, don't kid ourselves when we are more than fringe NHLer additions at the deadline that has cost a lot. Get better pro scouting and have a direction. Be faster... keep draft picks. 

It is time to do it properly, no more shortcuts by mortgaging futures for only minimal and short gains. The organization just hasn’t found their formula for success. I get the feeling the new arena will be considered a reset for the franchise, new home, new mentality. I think most on here understand and agree that true change has to start within the ownership , they need a new message and direction. Flames do have some good pieces in place, if Wolf pans out he’d be a good place to start a “build from the net” type of philosophy, clearly goaltending has been a major issue here for years. I wouldn’t even be against BT helming the rebuild, so long as ownership is fullly on board with the process. He’s still one of the most savvy GMs around, he’s made mistakes but no denying he’s made for some exciting drafts, Trade Deadlines and Free Agency periods for Flames fans. 

[rickross]

6 hours ago, The_People1 said:

So when is BT's contract over?  July 1st?

 

Also do we let BT run the draft without an extension?

I think you let him run the draft for sure at that point, there’s no one better acclimated with the team than BT. This will come back to the other elephant in the room …who do you replace BT with?  Who’s available AND is a better GM?

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, robrob74 said:

i am in favour of a rebuild or tool. But for me, I want an organic rebuild or tool. Keep picks, don't kid ourselves when we are more than fringe NHLer additions at the deadline that has cost a lot. Get better pro scouting and have a direction. Be faster... keep draft picks. 

 

Too many long term deals right now to do a rebuild.

Scorched earth is almost impossible, since we have two extensions for 8 years that haven't even started.

And Kadri for another 6.

 

What does a re-tool look like?

[cross16]

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

So when is BT's contract over?  July 1st?

 

Also do we let BT run the draft without an extension?

 

GM contracts would expire at the end of the league year which is just after they hand out the cup. If they chose not to renew he wouldn't run their draft. 

[Heartbreaker]

9 hours ago, robrob74 said:

i am in favour of a rebuild or tool. But for me, I want an organic rebuild or tool. Keep picks, don't kid ourselves when we are more than fringe NHLer additions at the deadline that has cost a lot. Get better pro scouting and have a direction. Be faster... keep draft picks. 

 

Totally. I was talking to my wife at the same time as I wrote this post, and I wasn't really clear. When I said that I was disappointed in the lack of movement, it was more that we haven't seen anyone moved out. I'm not saying we should blow the whole thing up, and we can't - the contracts that were signed last summer are not moveable right now, but anyone with a year or two left should be available. I would be really mindful of moving players that have newborns, unless they wanted out, but aside from that, I really would be listening to any and all offers. The cost of acquisition has been outrageous the last few days, and now I'm concerned that they may have missed the window, and I was wondering if as a lame duck GM, Brad Treliving's hands are tied.

 

Love.

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, rickross said:

It is time to do it properly, no more shortcuts by mortgaging futures for only minimal and short gains. The organization just hasn’t found their formula for success. I get the feeling the new arena will be considered a reset for the franchise, new home, new mentality. I think most on here understand and agree that true change has to start within the ownership , they need a new message and direction. Flames do have some good pieces in place, if Wolf pans out he’d be a good place to start a “build from the net” type of philosophy, clearly goaltending has been a major issue here for years. I wouldn’t even be against BT helming the rebuild, so long as ownership is fullly on board with the process. He’s still one of the most savvy GMs around, he’s made mistakes but no denying he’s made for some exciting drafts, Trade Deadlines and Free Agency periods for Flames fans. 

 

I think if they stayed the course and only traded out a few guys now that wouldn't make too big of a splash to the roster but still want to try make it, and go the next few years trying to make it, but keep the draft picks, I'd be in for something like that. I'm kind of tired of spending picks and prospects on guys like Forbort, Gustafson. While i understood Jarnkrok, I now see it's a lot to spend on rentals. Sell a bit when the writing is on the wall. 
 

but maybe BT sees something I don't. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Too many long term deals right now to do a rebuild.

Scorched earth is almost impossible, since we have two extensions for 8 years that haven't even started.

And Kadri for another 6.

 

What does a re-tool look like?

i agree. I do want them to keep picks for a few years. Concentrate on the draft and development and veer away from building the team through trades. I'd get on that. If they start graduating players in the next 2-3 years, great! 
 

maybe keep adding a UFA? Just stop blocking the Pelletiers. Maybe Zary is ready next season sometime, maybe not at the beginning of the year. 
 

get Poirier to learn D and grad him after next season. I like the Carolina model.
 

really it boils down to:
 

Stick with a plan

 

right now the plan seems like get in at all costs. 

[robrob74]

11 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

Totally. I was talking to my wife at the same time as I wrote this post, and I wasn't really clear. When I said that I was disappointed in the lack of movement, it was more that we haven't seen anyone moved out. I'm not saying we should blow the whole thing up, and we can't - the contracts that were signed last summer are not moveable right now, but anyone with a year or two left should be available. I would be really mindful of moving players that have newborns, unless they wanted out, but aside from that, I really would be listening to any and all offers. The cost of acquisition has been outrageous the last few days, and now I'm concerned that they may have missed the window, and I was wondering if as a lame duck GM, Brad Treliving's hands are tied.

 

Love.

and I think I forgot to add that I don't think it's possible. That now, please just concentrate on the Drafting and development of players. 
 

if we only can start doing that. In 4+ years they can start reaping those rewards.

[zima]

I have seen this team drop a ton of firsts and second round picks in the last 7 yrs. We need to stop dumping our picks and start picking up picks we are no long a threat in the NHL we get a ton of shots but according to this forum 57 shots don't mean crap none are high risk shots enough  to win a game. I myself believe we are short on quality puck stoppers and to stupid to bring up a top quality goalie ? It's time to remove players like Mang dube and toffoli . Since we are struck with Huber and Kad for the next 100 yrs and just like gio this form will start trading him for a bag of pucks or just give him away or better yet lets give the team a 1st and a 2nd since he will be a useless goal scoring player. I don't understand owner ship allowing BT  to pay to move a player just to bring in a goal scorer who that has only produced 45 points in 65 gp and the player we paid to give to Montreal has produced 17 points in 25 gp other than Mony only playing 25 games he has produced enough points to get any other team a 3rd to 4th round player.on top of that we could not give away our first rounders for Chych because we gave them away to take Mony I don't understand why BT is still here and top management for the Flames?  We need to to remove our management and start a fresh but please do not bring sutter in as management he has already destroyed this team. Yes I'm ranting and yes I have no Idea what I'm talking about but I know enough to know the Flames management will bring us back to the dark ages. I say now that Chyck is gone no reason to dump anything unless it is to get high quality picks for the next few yrs.

[robrob74]

For me, it is looking like the team is trending the way they did at the end of Iginla's tenure. 
 

it is like Kadri is Jokinen and Huberdeau is Cammalleri, but we have no Iginla. 

[rickross]

6 hours ago, robrob74 said:

For me, it is looking like the team is trending the way they did at the end of Iginla's tenure. 
 

it is like Kadri is Jokinen and Huberdeau is Cammalleri, but we have no Iginla. 

It does feel similar to that era in a way. We’re in better hands with BT than we were with Feaster at the helm. Flames are very much in purgatory. Very tough situation to assess during the Trade Deadline. At this stage I’m ok with resetting the sails of this ship, cause we aren’t really going anywhere with this current roster…and goalies!

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, rickross said:

It does feel similar to that era in a way. We’re in better hands with BT than we were with Feaster at the helm. Flames are very much in purgatory. Very tough situation to assess during the Trade Deadline. At this stage I’m ok with resetting the sails of this ship, cause we aren’t really going anywhere with this current roster…and goalies!

 

I think this season reminds me of games where we get down by a goal and are heading into the 3rd period.

We get one back then give up another.  The season will be close but will just miss by 1 point. 

[zima]

All I can say is I hope we are sellers and not buyers Toffoli is still worth something lets get what we can for him Dube is as far as I'm concerned stail and the same with Mang. We have a bunch of players unable to play sutters game and we are losing every time we put Marky in net I keep wondering why the coach refuses to bring up some fresh blood in net unless they plan on losing this yr for a High pick 

[robrob74]

A lot of moves not involving Calgary Flames. I really think the Flames are not doing anything this deadline. 
 

can there be a silver lining? 
 

 

there is a lot of discussion that the team is good but has underperformed. This scares me because it means they think next year will be different. But will it just mean it's going to be an every other year pattern we are used to? 
 

I just don't know that this team has the right mix and is slow. I get they look good against the better teams, I think that just means they know they have to give their all to beat them. But is it something they can do every day every game? So far this season says no.