Realistic (and unrealistic) Trades - 2024 Edition

[jjgallow]

 

General comment:

 

There is a lot of talk about how important it is for us to draft an elite D this year.

 

IMHO, while that's possible, it should actually be more in this topic.   The hard nuts of it is, we need to Acquire an elite young D prospect.   Quite frankly, two of them would be better, if we set our sights a little higher.

 

IMHO, the draft is only One way to do this, and if it happens that would be nice, but I really believe the focus at draft time should be "not screwing up".    Because for sure, in that top list of D, there are more than a few future duds.   We simply need to get the right guy.  Whatever position.  We need to get the guy that we think will go highest in a redraft 10 years from now.

 

The need for an elite D is a Real issue, but I don't think it should influence the draft decision in any way unless there is a literal tie between two players.    Of course D always imho should be rated a little higher than they are at the draft, but that's a separate convo.

 

I feel like we should be looking at it like this: 

 

We should be actively pursuing an elite D.  And quite frankly should already have them by now, easily before the TDL.    We should be actively pursuing it instead of just hoping for the draft.    If  we acquire an elite D and then we get another elite D at the draft, great.  Then we would have two, and something to get really excited about.

 

We should always be looking to move players to get elite D prospects until we are good here.

[cross16]

On 4/20/2024 at 3:48 PM, phoenix66 said:

Except you forget Yegor plays all 3 forward positions including center ...  Power play, and kills penalties ..  does he need more experience at all 3, sure , but in the end he's not "just a winger" 

But .. what is gonna happen , will happen..

 

 

I was highly relieved when Connie outlined just what the plan and blueprint is..  it is 100% NOT bottoming out .. it's getting better every year ..kids what played this year need to take a step next year ..

He named Dallas as the model..

Veteran core at all 5 positions ..so don't expect him to be shopping Markstrom.. if NJ wants to blow us away , maybe he listens ..but if that happens expect a vet quality starter to come back thru the door ( Talbot?)  I don't rule it out cuz when asked about Markstrom he did say " we'll see" 

Trades will be for ages 18-23

Free agency ..expect some reinforcements from there .. likely nothing long term or high ticket but significant adds

From there..need to hit on draft picks on all rounds .. expect him to be more frugal with trading any picks than his predecessors. Quantity gives you a higher chance of hitting quality 

 

Again.. we can hope..we can wish all we want , but that is the blueprint in action straight from the source 

 

I would disagree with this. IMO Markstorm is not a Flame next year.  I think that relationship has come to an end. 

 

Just a question of seeing if Conroy overplayed his hand or not but I don't think we are in the "you need to blow me away" to trade him part of this anymore. 

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I wonder actually if 2027 could be an even better year.   Highly unlikely, but if any team does massively struggle for 2 years in a row you could end up the makings of a modern day dynasty.

 

We need to come out of this retool with minimum one #1 Center and one #1 D.  If it takes 3 years in the basement, then do it.  Whatever it takes.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

General comment:

 

There is a lot of talk about how important it is for us to draft an elite D this year.

 

IMHO, while that's possible, it should actually be more in this topic.   The hard nuts of it is, we need to Acquire an elite young D prospect.   Quite frankly, two of them would be better, if we set our sights a little higher.

 

IMHO, the draft is only One way to do this, and if it happens that would be nice, but I really believe the focus at draft time should be "not screwing up".    Because for sure, in that top list of D, there are more than a few future duds.   We simply need to get the right guy.  Whatever position.  We need to get the guy that we think will go highest in a redraft 10 years from now.

 

The need for an elite D is a Real issue, but I don't think it should influence the draft decision in any way unless there is a literal tie between two players.    Of course D always imho should be rated a little higher than they are at the draft, but that's a separate convo.

 

I feel like we should be looking at it like this: 

 

We should be actively pursuing an elite D.  And quite frankly should already have them by now, easily before the TDL.    We should be actively pursuing it instead of just hoping for the draft.    If  we acquire an elite D and then we get another elite D at the draft, great.  Then we would have two, and something to get really excited about.

 

We should always be looking to move players to get elite D prospects until we are good here.

 

But it's hard to trade for a young elite D.  Especially if you are talking about Makar/Heiskanen level.  It requires we give back an elite player in return and we don't have those, let alone have those in excess.

 

Byram Bowen was traded but he struggled with post-concussion problems and he's only 22.  He might be retired from the NHL by 26.

 

Seth Jones was traded a couple of times. Perhaps overrated from the beginning.  He plays like a 3/4/5 type D being paid $9.5-mil.

 

Hanifin types get moved all the time but they are not the elite variety.  They are good complementary types.

 

When is the last time a young elite D was moved?

 

I agree we need the next Mark Giordano.  Norris-level D.  Leader.  Captain.  They are hard to find from trade.  Need to draft them.

[jjgallow]

55 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

We need to come out of this retool with minimum one #1 Center and one #1 D.  If it takes 3 years in the basement, then do it.  Whatever it takes.

 

my guess is 5-7.   and I'm okay with that.  

[jjgallow]

42 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

When is the last time a young elite D was moved?

 

 

Well there's Fox and Hamilton 😅

[robrob74]

57 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

But it's hard to trade for a young elite D.  Especially if you are talking about Makar/Heiskanen level.  It requires we give back an elite player in return and we don't have those, let alone have those in excess.

 

Byram Bowen was traded but he struggled with post-concussion problems and he's only 22.  He might be retired from the NHL by 26.

 

Seth Jones was traded a couple of times. Perhaps overrated from the beginning.  He plays like a 3/4/5 type D being paid $9.5-mil.

 

Hanifin types get moved all the time but they are not the elite variety.  They are good complementary types.

 

When is the last time a young elite D was moved?

 

I agree we need the next Mark Giordano.  Norris-level D.  Leader.  Captain.  They are hard to find from trade.  Need to draft them.

how often can you get a Hronek like the Canucks did? 
 

How many players are 3rd pair needing a chance? And do those teams that have them see them as that? 
 

13 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well there's Fox and Hamilton 😅

 

had we not traded for Hamonic, we might have had a decent player in, I think it was Dobson? 
 

Although, maybe we'd have taken Farabee? Or other players not in the NHL now.

[Heartbreaker]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

...

 

I agree we need the next Mark Giordano.  Norris-level D.  Leader.  Captain.  They are hard to find from trade.  Need to draft them.

 

To be fair, they didn't draft Giordano either.

 

Love.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

how often can you get a Hronek like the Canucks did? 
 

How many players are 3rd pair needing a chance? And do those teams that have them see them as that? 
 

 

had we not traded for Hamonic, we might have had a decent player in, I think it was Dobson? 
 

Although, maybe we'd have taken Farabee? Or other players not in the NHL now.

 

Think this really comes down to how willing are you to stretch the definition of elite. 

 

Dobson, not for me. Very good, but not elite. Hronek not even close. Hronek was just the right pair for an already elite dman in Hughes. 

 

If your plan is to trade for an elite dman and actually think you can harbor more then one then good luck but i'd reckon your are really stretch the definition of "elite". 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

how often can you get a Hronek like the Canucks did?

As often as you like, honestly. From a Detroit perspective, I'm glad that he's doing well, but there is just no way to keep him for next year at a QO of $5.4 with arb rights. I'm really happy with that trade. He was having a big year for the D. He had to go. Just no way he was going to be worth Detroit giving a term and $$ contract to. Wrong place, wrong time.

Glad he's having success elsewhere, though. That was a good trade for both teams. See how Van makes out with the extension.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Think this really comes down to how willing are you to stretch the definition of elite. 

 

Dobson, not for me. Very good, but not elite. Hronek not even close. Hronek was just the right pair for an already elite dman in Hughes. 

 

If your plan is to trade for an elite dman and actually think you can harbor more then one then good luck but i'd reckon your are really stretch the definition of "elite". 

yup, and I wouldn't necessary call them elite. If I did I didn't mean to, only that they got some good players. Elite is a tough definition. I'd think there are only a few that are in certain positions.  
 

Hronek has been good for Van, Dobson a good pick. 
 

I also don't like thinking, just because a player was drafted by a team that traded for a Flames pick would end up the same player the Flames would have drafted. They have their own list and might have drafted someone else. Could be we wouldn't even have drafted Dobson with that pick. 

[Thebrewcrew]

7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

 

I agree we need the next Mark Giordano.  Norris-level D.  Leader.  Captain.  They are hard to find from trade.  Need to draft them.

They already have that guy and he's wearing 52 for the Flames.

[conundrumed]

I should also point out Hronek was 2016 53rd oa.

We really haven't had picks that would be coming to fruition in the now. More often than not, we were the team trading those picks.

That's what excites me. We got some solid prospects last year, and even more this year. 1st pick is 1st pick. Way too much is made of it when you're outside of top 3.

I think 5 picks in the top 75 is awesome, and something that we're really not used to. We're going to be getting some really good prospects with all of those picks.

[The_People1]

52 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

They already have that guy and he's wearing 52 for the Flames.

 

Weegar to OTT for the 7th overall in that case.

 

Giordano peaked the wrong time the rest of our core peaked.  By the time the rest of the core peaked, Giordano was on his way down.  Let's not make the same mistake twice.

[Thebrewcrew]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I should also point out Hronek was 2016 53rd oa.

We really haven't had picks that would be coming to fruition in the now. More often than not, we were the team trading those picks.

That's what excites me. We got some solid prospects last year, and even more this year. 1st pick is 1st pick. Way too much is made of it when you're outside of top 3.

I think 5 picks in the top 75 is awesome, and something that we're really not used to. We're going to be getting some really good prospects with all of those picks.

If the Flames want to shorten the rebuild, day 2 of the draft is where they've got to make hay.

 

They should be able to really strengthen their prospect pool this year and that's very exciting. Pick 41, they're likely getting someone they had a 1st round grade on. Exciting times, really looking forward to the draft.

[cross16]

On 4/20/2024 at 1:11 PM, robrob74 said:

To your point and hear me out; he's scored some goals. Grant that... i am sure Conroy is looking at it like, what else does he do? Is he killing penalties at a good clip? Is he scoring 5v5 vs just the pp?  
 

im with you, is this the player? 
 

How close does he resemble kuzmenko? Is kuz's contract the one to base the contract on?

 

Well tough thing with Kuzmenko is that contract was based off 1 year in the NHL. Sharangovich has a few years so there is more to base on but I do think there are similarities so it's a potential comp for sure.  Kuzmenko is the better goal score and offensive player but I think Sharangovich is more well rounded. He produced on both the PP and 5 on 5 at a good clip, one of their better PKers too.  Can play a harder role against opposition too where I think Kuzmenko you have to bury. 

 

but I do think he gets overrated for his defensive game. It's ok, but it's not good, and while he owns a wicked shot he isn't great at making other around him better. 

 

They won't do this but I think the more I look at the less i'd re-sign him too. His situation leads to a bad deal more often than not. Hopefully the Flames handle the negotiation well. 

 

 

[jjgallow]

19 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

To be fair, they didn't draft Giordano either.

 

Love.

 

Yup.   Don't get me wrong, I will be very cool drafting a D in the top ten.   But we should be on this all the time, any way we can.

 

I say we don't have an elite D prospect.  But, what i mean, is a high probability one.  We do have some potential surprises, like Brzustewicz.   We just need more.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Well tough thing with Kuzmenko is that contract was based off 1 year in the NHL. Sharangovich has a few years so there is more to base on but I do think there are similarities so it's a potential comp for sure.  Kuzmenko is the better goal score and offensive player but I think Sharangovich is more well rounded. He produced on both the PP and 5 on 5 at a good clip, one of their better PKers too.  Can play a harder role against opposition too where I think Kuzmenko you have to bury. 

 

but I do think he gets overrated for his defensive game. It's ok, but it's not good, and while he owns a wicked shot he isn't great at making other around him better. 

 

They won't do this but I think the more I look at the less i'd re-sign him too. His situation leads to a bad deal more often than not. Hopefully the Flames handle the negotiation well. 

 

 

thanks for the reply. I think you're right... good middle 6 on a good team.

 

I think Conroy probably has a pulse on the kinds of players he wants. We will find out if he has a vision soon enough, a philosophy and so on. 
 

Be good to get some assets from guys like him.

[conundrumed]

How embarrassed would you be to have the handle, "Andrew Mangiapane is the best Breadman"?

Credibility swirling straight down the toilet. lol

[The_People1]

We should trade Mangiapane if anyone wants him. 

[travel_dude]

17 hours ago, conundrumed said:

How embarrassed would you be to have the handle, "Andrew Mangiapane is the best Breadman"?

Credibility swirling straight down the toilet. lol

 

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

We should trade Mangiapane if anyone wants him. 

 

Okay, so we built up his value, supposedly.  I am sure that on the right team he could score 30.

I'm just thinking we aren't that team.

The line he plays on can only score so many goals.

Coleman goes to the net, so those goals are gobbled up.

What Mangiapane used to excel at was quick strike goals.

Finding a quiet area.

Either the passes aren't coming from Backlund now, or he is not able to find those areas.

 

Needs a change in scenery, and we should be looking for a similar player.

Someone we don't regret playing 4th line and paying third line for.

We are paying for a top 6 and he hasn't shown that in a couple.

[conundrumed]

7 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

and we should be looking for a similar player.

Nope. We shouldn't. 35 in a contract year, everything else a struggle to 20. Go figure. Hate to inflate size, but someone who can handle playing like he does. To be more punisher than punishee.

I do like Mangiapane, he plays an honest hard-working game. His size defies him quite a bit, and he overcomes that as well as he can.

I agree with you, and not just Backlund. Mangiapane gets open in the high slot quite a bit. He rarely gets the puck, though. He floats just above the dmen and gets to that sweetspot area between the fwds and dmen.  He's good at it. He rarely gets the puck though. 20% on a good day, maybe? Unless it's a contract year, apparently.

What I mean is, I don't mind Mangiapane at all. He's just too small for bottom 6. He's not quite skilled enough to be an impact player on Line 2. He probably could, riding with a good pair. Like he does with Backlund and Coleman.

But he needed a better pairing than Kadri-Dube. He's the ride-along.

If I were, say Chicago, and we could do my 4th best prospect and a 4th, we might have a deal.

Mangiapane's a good NHLer, we just don't have the parts to accommodate his secondary role, imho.

[sak22]

4 hours ago, The_People1 said:

We should trade Mangiapane if anyone wants him. 

I’m on the fence.  Not that they should or shouldn’t move him, but do you wait and see if he has a contract year boost and then move him at the deadline.  I don’t know what a trade looks like now.

[cross16]

I think you'll have a taker for Mang but the price is going to be low. Think at best you'll get a couple of mid round picks, maybe a 3 if you eat some salary.  There might be value in waiting til the TDL.

 

As i've said before I personally would just take what I get and move on, even if all you get is a 5th. I think he needs a change of scenery and I think the Flames need the spot on the Backlund line to work in young players. That's more valuable to me than the picks. 

[conundrumed]

12 minutes ago, cross16 said:

even if all you get is a 5th

I get what you're saying, but you've got to do better than that. He has history in the league that's more worth than a fifth.

We shouldn't be having to give him away. Losing trades, just because, shouldn't be on the agenda. Some form of decent prospect and a 5th. But just a 5th? That's horrible asset mgmt. Develop players, give them away. It haunts us a bit.