Daryl Sutter and Flames

[cross16]

Suspect we are going to hear a lot of this.

 

I would be very surprised if someone on the staff was promoted

 

 

[tmac70]

14 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Suspect we are going to hear a lot of this.

 

I would be very surprised if someone on the staff was promoted

 

 

Love would be a great choice however I just don't believe you're going to see great progression regardless of who coaches next season. IMHO this put more pressure on the players, we already know they can't handle pressure 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

He's already shown he's not a YES man.  That is good in my books.  

I was concerned about the Bean involvement in the presser when BT quit.

 

The opposite.  Maloney is proving to be a yes man.  The delusion of thinking this team can do any meaningful damage in the playoffs... Man, so sad.

 

SEA beats the AVS, so therefore the Flames don't need major roster changes?!  Absolute insanity.  The biggest fear was the Flames would use FLA and SEA as fuel to keep this thing going in the wrong direction.  What about CAR and TOR that advanced?  What EDM and DAL, no upsets there.  But this team chooses to look at selected evidence to support their bias.  Such a sad comment by Maloney and so disappointing to hear.

 

Maloney even said, "I don't think we have to do much to this roster" saying the roster simply under achieved and will believe in the law of averages to save next season.  He only talked about the playoffs as if that's the ultimate goal.  He is setting the ceiling as just having to be better than half the teams in the NHL.  That's what we are aiming for.  No talk about how to layout a rebuild over a course of several years. No talk about championship blueprints and roadmaps.  Simply, we should have been a playoff team and we will be one next year.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Sutter is a good coach and the track record shows that. He just wasn’t the right coach for this team. I think this is the right move. I was worried it wouldn’t happen to be honest. 

 

If there's a team stacked with talent but can't play together as a team, then that's the situation where Sutter can step in and turn them into a Cup contender.  We just don't have this level of talent.  We also never had those Lewis-types.  Duehr finally arrived but almost too late.  Plus, Sutter wants 6 of them in the bottom 6.

 

I do agree Sutter is a good coach, just wrong roster and wrong time.

[Otown72]

After listening to the press conference  , It is pretty obvious that the philosophical differeces around the usage and distrivution of younger players in the lineup was Sutters main undoing. This would include the goaltending position imo.

 

Special teams coaching was a let down on the PP as well.

 

[jjgallow]

I'm cool with this.  It's part of the job.

 

I know a lot of people are angry.   That all said,

 

Thanks for 2004 Sutter, it was 100% in the net by any viewing angle.   You already won us one cup as far as I'm concerned.

 

Now you can relax and watch us all piss on someone else lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cross16]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

The opposite.  Maloney is proving to be a yes man.  The delusion of thinking this team can do any meaningful damage in the playoffs... Man, so sad.

 

SEA beats the AVS, so therefore the Flames don't need major roster changes?!  Absolute insanity.  The biggest fear was the Flames would use FLA and SEA as fuel to keep this thing going in the wrong direction.  What about CAR and TOR that advanced?  What EDM and DAL, no upsets there.  But this team chooses to look at selected evidence to support their bias.  Such a sad comment by Maloney and so disappointing to hear.

 

Maloney even said, "I don't think we have to do much to this roster" saying the roster simply under achieved and will believe in the law of averages to save next season.  He only talked about the playoffs as if that's the ultimate goal.  He is setting the ceiling as just having to be better than half the teams in the NHL.  That's what we are aiming for.  No talk about how to layout a rebuild over a course of several years. No talk about championship blueprints and roadmaps.  Simply, we should have been a playoff team and we will be one next year.

 

I'm not sure why we should find this surprising.  This has been the MO for 20 years now. 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

The opposite.  Maloney is proving to be a yes man.  The delusion of thinking this team can do any meaningful damage in the playoffs... Man, so sad.

 

SEA beats the AVS, so therefore the Flames don't need major roster changes?!  Absolute insanity.  The biggest fear was the Flames would use FLA and SEA as fuel to keep this thing going in the wrong direction.  What about CAR and TOR that advanced?  What EDM and DAL, no upsets there.  But this team chooses to look at selected evidence to support their bias.  Such a sad comment by Maloney and so disappointing to hear.

 

Maloney even said, "I don't think we have to do much to this roster" saying the roster simply under achieved and will believe in the law of averages to save next season.  He only talked about the playoffs as if that's the ultimate goal.  He is setting the ceiling as just having to be better than half the teams in the NHL.  That's what we are aiming for.  No talk about how to layout a rebuild over a course of several years. No talk about championship blueprints and roadmaps.  Simply, we should have been a playoff team and we will be one next year.

 

Come on, he's not about to embarass Bean in a presser where the GM has quit and you are reacting to it.  Was it not BEan that suggested that we had a Vezna goalie and All Star players?  You don't want to make any kind of assessment at that point.  The GM will listen and make his own decisions, or at least that is the hope.  If it's no change, then Maloney had zero independence.

[tmac70]

Sutter being removed really what does it change other than life gets easier with no consequences?   Does this assure the UFA's sign, will performances get better, and any guarantees we get in the playoffs, NOPE. This is a great deal for the players, You demand change but you don't have to change, just another day in the dysfunctional world of CGY Flames hockey. 

 

[The_People1]

36 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I'm not sure why we should find this surprising.  This has been the MO for 20 years now. 

 

We already know how the GM interviews will go,

 

Maloney:  What is your vision for the Flames?

Candidate:  In my honest opinion, we need to rebu...

Maloney:  *BEEEEEEEEEEEEP* next please.

[JTech780]

With Huberdeau, Kadri and Weegar signed long term, to big contracts there really isn’t anyway for this team to rebuild anyways. 
 

With the amount of guys with 1 year left on their deals, there should be a fair amount of turnover on the roster though.

[Heartbreaker]

9 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Sutter being removed really what does it change other than life gets easier with no consequences?   Does this assure the UFA's sign, will performances get better, and any guarantees we get in the playoffs, NOPE. This is a great deal for the players, You demand change but you don't have to change, just another day in the dysfunctional world of CGY Flames hockey. 

 

 

I've been following your posts for years now, and for the most part, I think that they're pretty good. I am a bit bewildered by your take the last few weeks, though. What sort of consequences do you expect for the players? As best I can tell, the atmosphere around our team this year was very toxic, and they are cleaning house. I am curious, what did you see this past season from Darryl Sutter that leads you to believe that things would be better next year?

 

To be fair, here are some things that I expect would improve:

• They will likely hit fewer goal posts
• I believe that the goaltenders are better than we saw this year, and I think that they'll be closer to their career averages
• Jonathan Huberdeau will have a better season, although, I do think it's highly unlikely he'll ever reach his full offensive potential in a Darryl Sutter system

I believe that those three factors could potentially be the difference between picking 16th overall, and actually being in the playoffs. I keep hearing about the OT record, and "if they'd only won three of those games". I believe that this team demonstrated very little this season to make me think that they'd last any longer than five games in the playoffs, so I tend to look at it the other way - "if they'd only lost a few more of those games in regulation..."

 

My personal opinion is that this is one of the most frustrating years in franchise history. I believe that Darryl Sutter played a big part in that. Here are a few reasons: 

• Refusal to play young players
• Insistence on rolling four lines
• Reliance on the wrong players - with the season on the line, we deployed Nick Richie in the shootout (to be clear, this is not the reason, but this tells you what you need to know about this coach at this point in the season - either he actually believes that Nick Richie is the right player, or he's sending a big middle finger upstairs, and either way, is that the guy you want?)

On top of all that, the list of casualties under Darryl Sutter is getting longer and longer. I have a hard time believing that everyone is entitled, a whiner, or that they are weak. They obviously have faced adversity if they've made it as far as they have. There is a difference between working somewhere that the job is demanding, and working somewhere with a toxic culture. It doesn't make a person weak to not want to be a part of the latter.

 

Love.

 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

My personal opinion is that this is one of the most frustrating years in franchise history. I believe that Darryl Sutter played a big part in that. Here are a few reasons: 

• Refusal to play young players
• Insistence on rolling four lines
• Reliance on the wrong players - with the season on the line, we deployed Nick Richie in the shootout (to be clear, this is not the reason, but this tells you what you need to know about this coach at this point in the season - either he actually believes that Nick Richie is the right player, or he's sending a big middle finger upstairs, and either way, is that the guy you want?)

On top of all that, the list of casualties under Darryl Sutter is getting longer and longer. I have a hard time believing that everyone is entitled, a whiner, or that they are weak. They obviously have faced adversity if they've made it as far as they have. There is a difference between working somewhere that the job is demanding, and working somewhere with a toxic culture. It doesn't make a person weak to not want to be a part of the latter.

 

 

I think there are players like Toffoli that do well in a slower paced attack.  He's a sniper that doesn't rely on a well timed pass to get past the D and have an open lane to the net.  LA is the team that perfected this during the playoffs.  Take advantage of bad ice to slow down the other team.  

 

Unfortunately, you see a larger number of teams that are fast attack.  FLA in 21/22 used it.  We used it for the top 3 last season.  I saw a bit of it to start the season, and then it was dropped.  That's about the time that people got moved around and players were PNG'd to the bench.  I can't even begin to know what the players felt when they saw a guy at a p/gp pace get dropped, or to see other young players come up and are perceived as playing somebody little brother and not a viable prospect.  Or what they thought when a young guy several came up through the ranks with, just get waived for nothing.

 

I have simmered down over the end of the season debacle.  Was better to be out before getting outcoached again.  We don't get a great pick this year, but we also don't have to drag along marginal players now.  The future choices will be made on team needs, not on coach's desires.  

[phoenix66]

5 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

If there's a team stacked with talent but can't play together as a team, then that's the situation where Sutter can step in and turn them into a Cup contender.  We just don't have this level of talent.  We also never had those Lewis-types.  Duehr finally arrived but almost too late.  Plus, Sutter wants 6 of them in the bottom 6.

 

I do agree Sutter is a good coach, just wrong roster and wrong time.

 

 

 

So much to unpack in recent events.. I see I big domino effect that happened....

 

Firstly it's clear,at least to me that Sutter was not the reason BT chose to leave...I think it was more to do with autonomy.. trades fell apart cuz he couldn't reach Murray, or couldnt get an ok on an extension..etc..  when Sutter was hired BT himself said it wasn't the first time he tried to hire him... Etc

If Maloney can fire Sutter a mere 2 weeks later "not being allowed to fire Sutter" wasn't the issue..we may never know the full details..I'm sure it's a lot that went into his decision 

 

No I think Sutter was perfect for last year's team..  an established group that needed direction ..hes a closer..not a setup guy 

Johnny and. Chucky left and now you have a team that is unfamiliar with each other ..some learning a system for the first time in their careers.  Sutters system relies heavily on trusting your teammate to do their job while you focus on yours .. we had players that had no clue what the other guy can do.. 

That being said I think he'd have them gelled next season but apparently players weren't willing to see it thru..

He made mistakes yes.. but his mandate was to win.. easing players into the lineup and letting them make mistakes isn't part of that..

 

We are primely positioned for a rangers style retool

-a talented core of veterans to lead the way, solid goaltending 

- spots to inject youth into the lineup to follow the example 

 

I know I said before we should run alot back, but with a new GM and coach..that's not possible now .. 

 

Our next coach needs to be established but a younger thinker ..able to teach kids yet still expect vets to know their role . I dont think Love is the goto guy..but I 💯 think he should be in the staff.. Huska is ready..  I heard Andrew Brunette  come up today..he actually makes a lot of sense . He finished a presidents cup season and got the most out of Huberdeau .. he should have been given the job full time .  

 

But, whoever gets the gm job will make the coach direction a lot easier to predict then 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

Firstly it's clear,at least to me that Sutter was not the reason BT chose to leave...I think it was more to do with autonomy.. trades fell apart cuz he couldn't reach Murray, or couldnt get an ok on an extension..etc..  when Sutter was hired BT himself said it wasn't the first time he tried to hire him... Etc

If Maloney can fire Sutter a mere 2 weeks later "not being allowed to fire Sutter" wasn't the issue..we may never know the full details..I'm sure it's a lot that went into his decision 

 

I think you may be reading too much into simple comments.  Did he actually say he tried to hire him as the coach?  Or that he talked to him.  If BT was unable to fire Sutter and gave that as part of his reasons for leaving, as well as the attitude of the coach in dealings, then what does that leave the owners (and Maloney) with?  Put up with it and hope the next GM will have better success with Sutter?  Have a GM come in and try to turn the work environment for the players into sometime not toxic?

 

Maloney's comments showed that they saw the writing on the wall and knew his time was up as coach.  They weren't going to be able to do anything if they stayed the same.

 

The coach and GM changes alone won't fix the problems.  This takes a rebuilding of the team into a mix of talent.  We maybe had that mix, but used salt instead of baking soda.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Firstly it's clear,at least to me that Sutter was not the reason BT chose to leave...I think it was more to do with autonomy.. trades fell apart cuz he couldn't reach Murray, or couldnt get an ok on an extension..etc..  when Sutter was hired BT himself said it wasn't the first time he tried to hire him... Etc

If Maloney can fire Sutter a mere 2 weeks later "not being allowed to fire Sutter" wasn't the issue..we may never know the full details..I'm sure it's a lot that went into his decision 

 

One major reason to think the owners reached over BT to hire Sutter is because BT has already hired/fired Gulutzan, Peters, Ward, etc.  How many lives does a GM get before the owner steps in and takes matters into their own hands?  Most GMs get to hire 2 coaches max before getting fired.

 

But after Sutter's firing today, it tells me BT could've fired Sutter too if he wanted.

 

Therefore, BT's unhappiness with this team must've been upwards, not downwards.

 

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

No I think Sutter was perfect for last year's team..  an established group that needed direction ..hes a closer..not a setup guy 

Johnny and. Chucky left and now you have a team that is unfamiliar with each other ..some learning a system for the first time in their careers.  Sutters system relies heavily on trusting your teammate to do their job while you focus on yours .. we had players that had no clue what the other guy can do.. 

That being said I think he'd have them gelled next season but apparently players weren't willing to see it thru..

He made mistakes yes.. but his mandate was to win.. easing players into the lineup and letting them make mistakes isn't part of that..

 

Sutter was a better fit in 2021/22 than 2022/23, yes.  Lewis and Lucic were younger and useful.  Gudbranson was a dream bottom pair.  Markstrom was Vezina form and Sutter hockey relies heavily on clutch goaltending.  All that fell apart in 2022/23... but even then, I don't think we were even setup yet for a finisher to come in and win it all for us.  We still needed time to fix holes on the roster.

 

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

We are primely positioned for a rangers style retool

-a talented core of veterans to lead the way, solid goaltending 

- spots to inject youth into the lineup to follow the example 

 

Not sure I agree with this at all.  Zibanejad and Krieder were still youngish when they began their rebuild 5 years ago.  Meanwhile, Lindholm and Backlund might be leaving us soon.  Huberdeau and Kadri don't have 5 years to rebuild with us and still be top performers after our rebuild is over. 

 

Flames also currently have questionable goaltending, not solid goaltending.  Wolf looks promising but we still don't know at the NHL level.

 

It's all a huge mess until we know Lindholm's direction.  That said, that's the way this team is going to rebuild if at all.  There won't be full commitment and full scale turnover of the team from old to very young.

 

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

I know I said before we should run alot back, but with a new GM and coach..that's not possible now .. 

 

It's possible to run it back but it's no long the smart thing to do anymore because the drivers of the ship are gone.  There's no guarantees it will bounce back anymore.  But yet, they will run it back.  Maloney and Bean both hinted at the idea that not much needs to be done to the roster.  They believe they've got a playoff roster already.  The new GM will be someone who buys into this concept.  And it's not going to work, of course.

[Heartbreaker]

Aww Jeez... don't make me agree with Eric Francis.

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/darryl-sutters-management-of-people-was-his-ultimate-undoing

 

Love.

[The_People1]

36 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

Aww Jeez... don't make me agree with Eric Francis.

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/darryl-sutters-management-of-people-was-his-ultimate-undoing

 

Love.

 

Oof Francis taking parting shots at Sutter.  Nothing to see here.  Just an angry journalist ranting.

[phoenix66]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

One major reason to think the owners reached over BT to hire Sutter is because BT has already hired/fired Gulutzan, Peters, Ward, etc.  How many lives does a GM get before the owner steps in and takes matters into their own hands?  Most GMs get to hire 2 coaches max before getting fired.

 

But after Sutter's firing today, it tells me BT could've fired Sutter too if he wanted.

 

Therefore, BT's unhappiness with this team must've been upwards, not downwards.

 

 

Sutter was a better fit in 2021/22 than 2022/23, yes.  Lewis and Lucic were younger and useful.  Gudbranson was a dream bottom pair.  Markstrom was Vezina form and Sutter hockey relies heavily on clutch goaltending.  All that fell apart in 2022/23... but even then, I don't think we were even setup yet for a finisher to come in and win it all for us.  We still needed time to fix holes on the roster.

 

 

Not sure I agree with this at all.  Zibanejad and Krieder were still youngish when they began their rebuild 5 years ago.  Meanwhile, Lindholm and Backlund might be leaving us soon.  Huberdeau and Kadri don't have 5 years to rebuild with us and still be top performers after our rebuild is over. 

 

Flames also currently have questionable goaltending, not solid goaltending.  Wolf looks promising but we still don't know at the NHL level.

 

It's all a huge mess until we know Lindholm's direction.  That said, that's the way this team is going to rebuild if at all.  There won't be full commitment and full scale turnover of the team from old to very young.

 

 

It's possible to run it back but it's no long the smart thing to do anymore because the drivers of the ship are gone.  There's no guarantees it will bounce back anymore.  But yet, they will run it back.  Maloney and Bean both hinted at the idea that not much needs to be done to the roster.  They believe they've got a playoff roster already.  The new GM will be someone who buys into this concept.  And it's not going to work, of course.

💯 I believe his issue was up not down.. tbh I think last offseason took a toll on him..he's always been about culture and loyalty.. and as much as yes players have the right to exercise their rights.. I think he felt Johnny and chucky spit in his face.. he lost valimaki for nothing.. and in some ways he likely felt his hands were tied to execute... I see him back somewhere as a hockey ops guy with full empowerment

 

All very good points..but I think we're in a very unique and good position. Can't remember the last time our gm didn't inherit a coach.. we really only have 2 long term contracts.. the new GM can bring in his guy with his vision.. if he wants to overhaul a roster, even with the confines of having to try and win he will have very moveable players

We have goaltending and good forwards in the pipeline who can win jobs.. defense is a little bare outside of DeSimone but he's not ready.

If it has to happen , a year of Backlund or Lindholm should fetch good packages with prospects and players..I'd rather resign them but the gm hands won't be tied.

 

Personally if I'm a gm candidate I'm licking my chops at this position here.they have a foundation, and not a ton of handcuffs.

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

Aww Jeez... don't make me agree with Eric Francis.

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/darryl-sutters-management-of-people-was-his-ultimate-undoing

 

Love.

 

Whether he has any inside info or not, it's painfully obvious what Sutter's treatment of players did to morale.  When you have the "take a crap" statement and the player says he was on the table getting treatment, it shows that players don't appreciate it.  Sutter walked back the Pelletier comments.  He never gave Phillips an inch, and only put him in the lineup because he looked stupid.  

 

There is a story in SN, where Hubey talks about the players' impression of Pelletier's treatment.  It wasn't just him with those thoughts.

[cross16]

6 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

💯 I believe his issue was up not down.. tbh I think last offseason took a toll on him..he's always been about culture and loyalty.. and as much as yes players have the right to exercise their rights.. I think he felt Johnny and chucky spit in his face.. he lost valimaki for nothing.. and in some ways he likely felt his hands were tied to execute... I see him back somewhere as a hockey ops guy with full empowerment

 

All very good points..but I think we're in a very unique and good position. Can't remember the last time our gm didn't inherit a coach.. we really only have 2 long term contracts.. the new GM can bring in his guy with his vision.. if he wants to overhaul a roster, even with the confines of having to try and win he will have very moveable players

We have goaltending and good forwards in the pipeline who can win jobs.. defense is a little bare outside of DeSimone but he's not ready.

If it has to happen , a year of Backlund or Lindholm should fetch good packages with prospects and players..I'd rather resign them but the gm hands won't be tied.

 

Personally if I'm a gm candidate I'm licking my chops at this position here.they have a foundation, and not a ton of handcuffs.

 

We'll see but IMO you have a very large one. It just doesn't happen to be on your roster. 

 

 

[The_People1]

8 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

💯 I believe his issue was up not down.. tbh I think last offseason took a toll on him..he's always been about culture and loyalty.. and as much as yes players have the right to exercise their rights.. I think he felt Johnny and chucky spit in his face.. he lost valimaki for nothing.. and in some ways he likely felt his hands were tied to execute... I see him back somewhere as a hockey ops guy with full empowerment

 

All very good points..but I think we're in a very unique and good position. Can't remember the last time our gm didn't inherit a coach.. we really only have 2 long term contracts.. the new GM can bring in his guy with his vision.. if he wants to overhaul a roster, even with the confines of having to try and win he will have very moveable players

We have goaltending and good forwards in the pipeline who can win jobs.. defense is a little bare outside of DeSimone but he's not ready.

If it has to happen , a year of Backlund or Lindholm should fetch good packages with prospects and players..I'd rather resign them but the gm hands won't be tied.

 

Personally if I'm a gm candidate I'm licking my chops at this position here.they have a foundation, and not a ton of handcuffs.

 

I mean, I really hope Maloney and Bean are simply playing 4D chess with us and the rest of the NHL by trying to sound very high on their own players.  I get that we don't want the league to think we are going to give away our players for nothing and making it difficult for the new GM to come into a situation where every GM in the league is low balling us.

 

I hope Bean and Maloney secretly have the green light from ownership to "retool" as least half this team within a 2 year span and go young.  I hope they are just giving us the media treatment and running their prepared scripts.  And behind the scenes, they are actually using the word "rebuild" among themselves.

 

Otherwise, the new GM is actually handcuffed into only one path.  Just make the playoffs and job is safe.

[robrob74]

47 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I mean, I really hope Maloney and Bean are simply playing 4D chess with us and the rest of the NHL by trying to sound very high on their own players.  I get that we don't want the league to think we are going to give away our players for nothing and making it difficult for the new GM to come into a situation where every GM in the league is low balling us.

 

I hope Bean and Maloney secretly have the green light from ownership to "retool" as least half this team within a 2 year span and go young.  I hope they are just giving us the media treatment and running their prepared scripts.  And behind the scenes, they are actually using the word "rebuild" among themselves.

 

Otherwise, the new GM is actually handcuffed into only one path.  Just make the playoffs and job is safe.

it is only one path with this team. We won't rebuild. We will make trade to be "competitive". Who goes is ones guess. But it'll be a $3m-$6m players to compete.

[The_People1]

47 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

it is only one path with this team. We won't rebuild. We will make trade to be "competitive". Who goes is ones guess. But it'll be a $3m-$6m players to compete.

 

The willingness to pay Sutter $8-mil to go back to his horse ranch gives me hope.  The franchise is showing a willingness to take a hit to make a play.  So maybe a 3 or 4 year rebuild could happen especially with so many UFAs we could move this coming season.

[jjgallow]

19 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

The willingness to pay Sutter $8-mil to go back to his horse ranch gives me hope.  The franchise is showing a willingness to take a hit to make a play.  So maybe a 3 or 4 year rebuild could happen especially with so many UFAs we could move this coming season.

 

dunno.  I'm just glad they didn't pull a Monahan and give some team a first rounder to take him from us.

 

A clean slate is probably best at this point, and I say that having always supported Sutter.

 

But we are a long ways away from a truly clean slate.