Daryl Sutter and Flames

[oldschoolplayer]

10 hours ago, The_Tribal Chief said:

BT yes hire Sutter but he doesnt know how toxic Sutter is making the Room so that the players just learn to turn off there hearing aids when he walks in the room roflmao

If those overpaid ego maniacs would have bucked up and played the game plan the whole team could have had beacon years. Pixx me off. 

[oldschoolplayer]

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Can't blame it all on Sutter.

 

Everyone bought in the year before and we were one of the best teams in the NHL.  And then we got some new players who came in and didn't buy in.  They whine.  They played like crap.  They got everybody fired.  And now fans are saying trade away everybody except those new players we got last year.

 

Seems more like the new players we got last year were the real problem.

That is what happened, and is happening. It's obvious. The organisation dropped the puck.

[oldschoolplayer]

9 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yup.

 

Tell you what though, they are really going to help with getting the picks we need 😅

Don't know which way to jump but I can't get behind those mutineering bums. When Sutter is finished his two year 8 million dollar holiday, I wonder who's going to grab him for a cup. 

[oldschoolplayer]

9 hours ago, flames for life said:

Who said BT hired Sutter.  One forgets that BT has people pulling his strings as well.  I find it interesting that Sutter was hired both times when the team was showing a level of progress and skill that could push into the playoffs.  In both cases, the next year showed significant regression.  The only difference was that Sutter was given the GM reins the first time, which gave him the power to design the team to his liking.  History showed it as a failure.  This time he was not given that power, but imo, had enough influence to cause turmoil up the management chain and down into the player’s psyche and eventually into their play.

I seriously wonder, given Sutter’s reputation and history with the Flames, if BT was directed to hire Sutter in spite of his opinion or concerns.

Sutter was there. It was cooking. Somebody hired guys who didn't want to do what they were told. They should never have been hired. What the hexl kind of crap is that, signing with a team you don't want to play for. No excuses. 

[oldschoolplayer]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

There are three ways to build a team.

 

The best is through the draft.

 

The second best is through trades.

 

The third and the worst is through UFA.  If trading Kadri, Huberdeau, and Weegar causes UFAs to not sign here again, then that's actually great.  And it's not like Giordano who took a discount to extend with us... Trading Giordano after taking a discount would be a brutal move from all angles.  These three players we got last season was paid fair market value.  You can argue Kadri got $1-mil above market value.  And definitely all three got too much term.  It's okay to trade them.  They didn't exactly do us favours by extending at fair market value and extra term.

Move them. 

[oldschoolplayer]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

https://www.thespec.com/sports/no-handshake-from-kadri/article_3472c82d-8485-5de2-8a85-3ef649411338.html

 

"It was just that I felt like I didn't have to shake his hand.""

 

I was, instantly worried when we acquired him.

 

No matter what happens now, we're getting high draft picks.  Just comes down to what we do with them.

I don't like Kadri but I would shake his hand after a match. Be a man. 

[oldschoolplayer]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

People really falling for a media driven story here. 
 

this whole “mass exodus” and things are poison is mostly crap imo. This is more about a team behind honest about where they stand that an organization that is rooted in issues.

 

the flames thought they had a core that could compete for a title so they did what they could to support it. They tried to piece it together for one more year to get an arena deal done and now they are understandably realizing the path wasn’t working. 
 

this is more about a natural evolution then it is about player revolt or unhappiness. 

Don't agree. Feels like the new sports complex is a curse. Calgary doesn't have a franchise player. They aren't full of elite players. Sutter's style was perfect for a team of that caliber. That org has pixxed me off. 

[oldschoolplayer]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

Right how dare an employee of an organization go out of his way to protect said organization. 
 

is it worse that he had to do it in the first place but your looking at the wrong person to pin that on. 
 

Listen not everyone has to like Treliving or the job he did. His record of performance is up for debate. But I don’t think what is up for debate is Treliving lead this organization with dignity, class and was a great steward of the franchise. Pretty brutal some of the garbage being dumped on him on his way out, pretty much all of was not his fault IMO

He jumped ship. 

[oldschoolplayer]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I dunno I don't have any personal vendetta against Treliving or anyone else in the organization, I also see a lot of garbage being dumped on Sutter, and I don't think that's right.   Certainly if garbage is to be dumped on Sutter said garbage should also be dumped on BT and/or the owners.

 

I'm also fine with not dumping any garbage.  Or ...maybe dumping garbage entirely on the owners,  but I'm not there yet.   Until I am,  kindergarten rules.   I like how Sutter just keeps his mouth shut through all of this and maybe a better policy than allegedly saying things that are not true.  Never been a fan of "people in positions of power have justifications for lying, honesty is for the common  folk ".

Words of wisdom to boot. 

I do have a need to throw garbage at that organisation. 

[CheersMan]

DS was brought in as a last ditch effort to win and squeeze what he could out of the team that remained, it was a valiant effort. The exodus started with Bennet, but he wanted out before DS even got here. DS gave him every opportunity (2/3 season), but SB proved to be no more than what we witnessed in years prior, he is what he is, so they let him go. Monahan proved to be broken and we paid dearly to rid of him in his last year. Then came the JHG middle finger, then the MT middle finger. BT opened the wallet and paid Kadri with new found money. The newly acquired Weegar was a bit of a wonderer at first, Florida style hockey, but DS tamed him as the season went on, his defensive side of the game improved by years’ end. But twinkle toes (Hubs) was a project that DS could not complete in one year. The core was gone and the newbies brought in were not cutting it, BT recognized it and bolted for greener pastures, Conroy now challenged with the rebuild. BT was here 8 years and he did what he could, with what he had, in an attempt to win every year, which had been the Flames mandate. Twinkle toes and DS obviously had issues, $80M dollar player vs $8M dollar coach. The big problems started when Hubs arrived, and I don’t think the problems are going away. Too much money for too long. New dude brought in, making double the money everyone else, not catching on to the system or producing as he should, which upsets the leadership and salary structure of entire team. I can understand why our veterans want out, this in not how we’ve done it here before and our veteran players are done being loyal, it’s a business and they want paid too, wherever that may be. DS is about SC's, I can't help but think the Coilers will give him an opportunity before McDavid departs, and why not, the Flames will be paying for DS anyways.

[oldschoolplayer]

7 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

DS was brought in as a last ditch effort to win and squeeze what he could out of the team that remained, it was a valiant effort. The exodus started with Bennet, but he wanted out before DS even got here. DS gave him every opportunity (2/3 season), but SB proved to be no more than what we witnessed in years prior, he is what he is, so they let him go. Monahan proved to be broken and we paid dearly to rid of him in his last year. Then came the JHG middle finger, then the MT middle finger. BT opened the wallet and paid Kadri with new found money. The newly acquired Weegar was a bit of a wonderer at first, Florida style hockey, but DS tamed him as the season went on, his defensive side of the game improved by years’ end. But twinkle toes (Hubs) was a project that DS could not complete in one year. The core was gone and the newbies brought in were not cutting it, BT recognized it and bolted for greener pastures, Conroy now challenged with the rebuild. BT was here 8 years and he did what he could, with what he had, in an attempt to win every year, which had been the Flames mandate. Twinkle toes and DS obviously had issues, $80M dollar player vs $8M dollar coach. The big problems started when Hubs arrived, and I don’t think the problems are going away. Too much money for too long. New dude brought in, making double the money everyone else, not catching on to the system or producing as he should, which upsets the leadership and salary structure of entire team. I can understand why our veterans want out, this in not how we’ve done it here before and our veteran players are done being loyal, it’s a business and they want paid too, wherever that may be. DS is about SC's, I can't help but think the Coilers will give him an opportunity before McDavid departs, and why not, the Flames will be paying for DS anyways.

Very interesting! Wouldn't that be a bxtch if Sutter scooped a cup with the Coilers. Ya, it will be cool to see McDoink get tired of losing and move to Toronto or something. More likely to an American team where he can win some cups. 

BT will phizzle in the ever losing Toronto Bay Leaves vortex. 

[oldschoolplayer]

This season's shenanigans soured me on the nhl. First time in my life I have given up on the league. 

PS ... and the Flames

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, CheersMan said:

DS was brought in as a last ditch effort to win and squeeze what he could out of the team that remained, it was a valiant effort. The exodus started with Bennet, but he wanted out before DS even got here. DS gave him every opportunity (2/3 season), but SB proved to be no more than what we witnessed in years prior, he is what he is, so they let him go. Monahan proved to be broken and we paid dearly to rid of him in his last year. Then came the JHG middle finger, then the MT middle finger. BT opened the wallet and paid Kadri with new found money. The newly acquired Weegar was a bit of a wonderer at first, Florida style hockey, but DS tamed him as the season went on, his defensive side of the game improved by years’ end. But twinkle toes (Hubs) was a project that DS could not complete in one year. The core was gone and the newbies brought in were not cutting it, BT recognized it and bolted for greener pastures, Conroy now challenged with the rebuild. BT was here 8 years and he did what he could, with what he had, in an attempt to win every year, which had been the Flames mandate. Twinkle toes and DS obviously had issues, $80M dollar player vs $8M dollar coach. The big problems started when Hubs arrived, and I don’t think the problems are going away. Too much money for too long. New dude brought in, making double the money everyone else, not catching on to the system or producing as he should, which upsets the leadership and salary structure of entire team. I can understand why our veterans want out, this in not how we’ve done it here before and our veteran players are done being loyal, it’s a business and they want paid too, wherever that may be. DS is about SC's, I can't help but think the Coilers will give him an opportunity before McDavid departs, and why not, the Flames will be paying for DS anyways.

 

Certainly a revisionist version of history.  You do remember how long Sutter was here with Bennett?  About a month.  And it was Gaudreau first, followed by Tkachuk followed by Monahan trade/Kadri signing.

 

After the 5 wins in 6 games to start the season, the problems started.  You can easily blame poor coaching decisions like playing a top LW on RW or blame the poor goaltending or blame the individual players or prospects, but I don't think you can say it's all on one player.

 

I LOL'd about the Oilers offering DS a stint.  Too funny.  That is a team run by one player.  The GM gets players he suggests.  The lines are decided by CMD.  The minutes are based on CMD.  It's harly a team.  

[oldschoolplayer]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Certainly a revisionist version of history.  You do remember how long Sutter was here with Bennett?  About a month.  And it was Gaudreau first, followed by Tkachuk followed by Monahan trade/Kadri signing.

 

After the 5 wins in 6 games to start the season, the problems started.  You can easily blame poor coaching decisions like playing a top LW on RW or blame the poor goaltending or blame the individual players or prospects, but I don't think you can say it's all on one player.

 

I LOL'd about the Oilers offering DS a stint.  Too funny.  That is a team run by one player.  The GM gets players he suggests.  The lines are decided by CMD.  The minutes are based on CMD.  It's harly a team.  

Excellent input Tdude. 

Excellent observation and perspective! 

[phoenix66]

8 hours ago, CheersMan said:

DS was brought in as a last ditch effort to win and squeeze what he could out of the team that remained, it was a valiant effort. The exodus started with Bennet, but he wanted out before DS even got here. DS gave him every opportunity (2/3 season), but SB proved to be no more than what we witnessed in years prior, he is what he is, so they let him go. Monahan proved to be broken and we paid dearly to rid of him in his last year. Then came the JHG middle finger, then the MT middle finger. BT opened the wallet and paid Kadri with new found money. The newly acquired Weegar was a bit of a wonderer at first, Florida style hockey, but DS tamed him as the season went on, his defensive side of the game improved by years’ end. But twinkle toes (Hubs) was a project that DS could not complete in one year. The core was gone and the newbies brought in were not cutting it, BT recognized it and bolted for greener pastures, Conroy now challenged with the rebuild. BT was here 8 years and he did what he could, with what he had, in an attempt to win every year, which had been the Flames mandate. Twinkle toes and DS obviously had issues, $80M dollar player vs $8M dollar coach. The big problems started when Hubs arrived, and I don’t think the problems are going away. Too much money for too long. New dude brought in, making double the money everyone else, not catching on to the system or producing as he should, which upsets the leadership and salary structure of entire team. I can understand why our veterans want out, this in not how we’ve done it here before and our veteran players are done being loyal, it’s a business and they want paid too, wherever that may be. DS is about SC's, I can't help but think the Coilers will give him an opportunity before McDavid departs, and why not, the Flames will be paying for DS anyways.

I've said before and I still firmly believe , in hindsight, the issue was we had no captain..

 

Sutter teams require buy in .do your job, trust your teammates to do theirs ..

In 04 we had Iggy and Conroy selling the Sutter system to the team . You can't tell me there weren't complaints. .but you had Iggy and Conroy as the go to buffer ..

This isn't news , Conroy has said this before ..

That's a forgotten role of a captain ..

 

Last year , people with issues had no go to.. they broke off into groups .. new guys who had never played under a system like Sutter had no buffer to steer them straight ...  A captain allows the coach to sit down with one player and sell the vision ..who In turn becomes that buffer .. instead of "f you"'s being shouted between Sutter and backs in the dressing room.

I recall stories from 04 where Sutter made a point of telling Iggy he was going to make an example of him and to play along ..

Sutter had no inside ally.. no captain.. no sounding board..to be successful his system demands that and requires that..

 

Huberdeau did everything asked of him and did as he was told . He never complained .. he was confused , it didn't click and it sucked his confidence .. a proper captain could have taken the lead with him .hang In there .. etc 

 

And to echo Cross's take there was a lot of press driven animosity to Sutter ..

Think back .not once did Kadri bash the team or Sutter .. I think the only public comment he made was after a semi benching and all he said was " I need to be better " ..but media was all over "Kadri and Sutter are at each other " 

 

Tbh in hindsight..even if it was just for one year ..I'd have slapped that c on Lucic or Lewis .. someone the room respects and can sell the message Sutter was driving 

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Certainly a revisionist version of history.  You do remember how long Sutter was here with Bennett?  About a month.  And it was Gaudreau first, followed by Tkachuk followed by Monahan trade/Kadri signing.

 

After the 5 wins in 6 games to start the season, the problems started.  You can easily blame poor coaching decisions like playing a top LW on RW or blame the poor goaltending or blame the individual players or prospects, but I don't think you can say it's all on one player.

 

I LOL'd about the Oilers offering DS a stint.  Too funny.  That is a team run by one player.  The GM gets players he suggests.  The lines are decided by CMD.  The minutes are based on CMD.  It's harly a team.  

And the irony was Bennett liked him . Actually rescinded his trade request but it was too late for him .

 

People quickly forget . That first part season it appeared chucky and johnny were dead meat under Sutter ..both fizzled out that season to end the year 

[oldschoolplayer]

7 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I've said before and I still firmly believe , in hindsight, the issue was we had no captain..

 

Sutter teams require buy in .do your job, trust your teammates to do theirs ..

In 04 we had Iggy and Conroy selling the Sutter system to the team . You can't tell me there weren't complaints. .but you had Iggy and Conroy as the go to buffer ..

This isn't news , Conroy has said this before ..

That's a forgotten role of a captain ..

 

Last year , people with issues had no go to.. they broke off into groups .. new guys who had never played under a system like Sutter had no buffer to steer them straight ...  A captain allows the coach to sit down with one player and sell the vision ..who In turn becomes that buffer .. instead of "f you"'s being shouted between Sutter and backs in the dressing room.

I recall stories from 04 where Sutter made a point of telling Iggy he was going to make an example of him and to play along ..

Sutter had no inside ally.. no captain.. no sounding board..to be successful his system demands that and requires that..

 

Huberdeau did everything asked of him and did as he was told . He never complained .. he was confused , it didn't click and it sucked his confidence .. a proper captain could have taken the lead with him .hang In there .. etc 

 

And to echo Cross's take there was a lot of press driven animosity to Sutter ..

Think back .not once did Kadri bash the team or Sutter .. I think the only public comment he made was after a semi benching and all he said was " I need to be better " ..but media was all over "Kadri and Sutter are at each other " 

 

Tbh in hindsight..even if it was just for one year ..I'd have slapped that c on Lucic or Lewis .. someone the room respects and can sell the message Sutter was driving 

Holy shxt 66! That was good reading. Thanks. That had a Lot to do with it. Lucic could have done that job. 

[oldschoolplayer]

7 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

And the irony was Bennett liked him . Actually rescinded his trade request but it was too late for him .

 

People quickly forget . That first part season it appeared chucky and johnny were dead meat under Sutter ..both fizzled out that season to end the year 

Chucky and B Good are not that kind of mindset. For me, B Good was good to see gone. Chucky is a turncoat in my eyes. I was glad to see him lose in the final. Maybe Calgary shouldn't get anymore US players; seems like they all want to go home. 

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, oldschoolplayer said:

Holy shxt 66! That was good reading. Thanks. That had a Lot to do with it. Lucic could have done that job. 

Thanks !  I think the team was too hung up on captaincy being long term .can't give it to Backlund til he signs .  Lucic only had a year left .   Etc.   So what .. so you pick a new one next year ..  it's not like Todd Simpsons name is in the rafters anywhere 

[oldschoolplayer]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Thanks !  I think the team was too hung up on captaincy being long term .can't give it to Backlund til he signs .  Lucic only had a year left .   Etc.   So what .. so you pick a new one next year ..  it's not like Todd Simpsons name is in the rafters anywhere 

Todd Simpson, real estate agent Kelowna BC. 2 years Flames Captain, I don't even remember him. Excellent example. Excellent hindsight investivation. 

[jjgallow]

27 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Thanks !  I think the team was too hung up on captaincy being long term .can't give it to Backlund til he signs .  Lucic only had a year left .   Etc.   So what .. so you pick a new one next year ..  it's not like Todd Simpsons name is in the rafters anywhere 

 

Having no captain probably didn't help and may have made the year look like a practice year.

 

Was it the biggest problem?  Hard to say, there was a lot to pick from lol.    But it's something I hadn't thought much of until you just brought it up here.

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Having no captain probably didn't help and may have made the year look like a practice year.

 

Was it the biggest problem?  Hard to say, there was a lot to pick from lol.    But it's something I hadn't thought much of until you just brought it up here.

I think to when Sutter came back.. we still had Gio.. the season was a write off but he implemented the blueprint ..then all these players went on career years so it likely hid it a bit.. winning does that.   Then the core changed ..square one ..

I notice nobody was whining about chucky being on his off wing for an entire year ..nobody whined about how Sutter brushed aside personal accomplishments (remeber Sutter saying Johnny's 500th game better be better than his 499th?) .. but when you're losing the media jumps on it 

Sutter needed an ambassador ... New school coaches get to know every player and coach different to each one.  Sutter has one way .and he needs an ambassador to help him sell it ..

[jjgallow]

14 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I think to when Sutter came back.. we still had Gio.. the season was a write off but he implemented the blueprint ..then all these players went on career years so it likely hid it a bit.. winning does that.   Then the core changed ..square one ..

I notice nobody was whining about chucky being on his off wing for an entire year ..nobody whined about how Sutter brushed aside personal accomplishments (remeber Sutter saying Johnny's 500th game better be better than his 499th?) .. but when you're losing the media jumps on it 

Sutter needed an ambassador ... New school coaches get to know every player and coach different to each one.  Sutter has one way .and he needs an ambassador to help him sell it ..

 

It has some merit yes.

 

We all kinda know that Sutter is a smart hockey guy, but if he isn't getting buy-in he will do weird stuff until he gets the buy-in.    And we saw that this year.

 

I'm not even going to say it didn't work.  To be honest, I think being one game away from the playoffs is impressive with our situation and our goaltending last season.   But had he got buyin, I think we'd be in the playoffs.  Which ...considering the goaltending and other issues, is ...well..amazing.

[phoenix66]

8 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

It has some merit yes.

 

We all kinda know that Sutter is a smart hockey guy, but if he isn't getting buy-in he will do weird stuff until he gets the buy-in.    And we saw that this year.

 

I'm not even going to say it didn't work.  To be honest, I think being one game away from the playoffs is impressive with our situation and our goaltending last season.   But had he got buyin, I think we'd be in the playoffs.  Which ...considering the goaltending and other issues, is ...well..amazing.

💯..with all the supposed turmoil I still think we were gelling at the right time ..

 

Case in point look at Eichel for Vegas ..playing 200feet..blocking shots .. not his typical MO, but he bought in .

And let's not forget, Cassidy got the Sutter treatment in Boston just a year before 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I notice nobody was whining about chucky being on his off wing for an entire year

 

Tkachuk was not a setup guy.  All he had to do was hit Gaudreau with a breakaway pass from a standstill, pass from behind the net to Johnny, while the rest of the time he was Satoshi Nakamoto disturbing, pouncing on rebounds, and sitting on his off wing looking for a one-timer.  It was up to Gaudreau or Lindholm to set him up.  

 

What was Huberdeau set up with?  A more likely puck distributor and a collection of RHS depth guys.  The only games he played LW were at the start and at the end.  Lacklustre number?  I wonder why.  How often had he played RW in the past?  I would suggest little to none.