Daryl Sutter and Flames

[jjgallow]

 

Players sure are embarrassing themselves right now.  Fine by me, I'm down for a rebuild.

 

Looks like cancer to me though.

 

90% of coach firings are to appease actual player problems.   This is not looking like an exception right now.

 

 

I know several on here have pointed out strategically why Sutter was making bench mistakes.  They revolved around 2 basic themes:

1.   Not playing youth

2.   Line decisions

 

The way I see it:

1.   Our youth wasn't that good after years of BT decimating our pipeline.   Sutter did not see it as his job to turn rocks into diamonds.  I tend to agree.  Our one great hope was an extremely small 25 year old who was not able to withstand AHL playoff pressures and failed to come through for his minor league team when he was needed. 

For this, I blame BT.  And sure, possibly the owners, we'll find out soon.

 

2.   Sutter is one of the smartest hockey minds on the planet.  He is beyond criticism of line choices honestly.  Nobody who thinks they could do better actually could.   Did he do weird things?   Yes.  Were there reasons?  You better believe there were.

A valid reason for firing Sutter would have been if he was the problem in the dressing room.    But it's becoming pretty clear now that we have a big handful of overpaid players who were the problem.   And continue to be after he's gone. 

For this, I blame BT.  And sure, possibly the owners, we'll see soon.

 

Now that the level of dysfunction is becoming more clear in the offseason and also independent of Sutter, I am...astounded he got us anywhere near the playoffs.   I am also fine with his departure, I highly suspect he is too good of a coach for the rebuild we need to do.

[robrob74]

3. Line Deployment

4. pp

5. not practicing 3-on-3 OT scenarios...

 

2. I do think he could have gotten more out of the lineup. I think in some games shortening the bench would have helped. Line matching would have also been good instead of rolling out each line making it easy on other teams coaches to strategize against the Flames, ultimately also taking home ice advantage away when at home with last change. 
 

I'm not letting the players off, because like you, I have always felt this was a sinking ship and expected more than what has happened. When I point out flaws I'm told it's too much. 
 

but I want consistency and am every year playoff team that might miss out due to injuries. 
 

The reason guys play through injuries may be because they know nobody can cover? I don't understand why we let our best players play through them and ultimately ruin their careers because of it? Why is it that other teams shut down their injured guys and bottom out and gain high picks? Maybe those are two separate things? Maybe it has to do with standings and the Flames are always hovering in the middle so there is a sniff. 
 

I dunno. We put down the oilers and the Canucks as if our team is high and mighty and the model organization and yet we are just as bad or worse. Worse now that we don't have our McDavid and Draisaitl... 

[jjgallow]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

3. Line Deployment

4. pp

5. not practicing 3-on-3 OT scenarios...

 

2. I do think he could have gotten more out of the lineup. I think in some games shortening the bench would have helped. Line matching would have also been good instead of rolling out each line making it easy on other teams coaches to strategize against the Flames, ultimately also taking home ice advantage away when at home with last change. 
 

I'm not letting the players off, because like you, I have always felt this was a sinking ship and expected more than what has happened. When I point out flaws I'm told it's too much. 
 

but I want consistency and am every year playoff team that might miss out due to injuries. 
 

The reason guys play through injuries may be because they know nobody can cover? I don't understand why we let our best players play through them and ultimately ruin their careers because of it? Why is it that other teams shut down their injured guys and bottom out and gain high picks? Maybe those are two separate things? Maybe it has to do with standings and the Flames are always hovering in the middle so there is a sniff. 
 

I dunno. We put down the oilers and the Canucks as if our team is high and mighty and the model organization and yet we are just as bad or worse. Worse now that we don't have our McDavid and Draisaitl... 

 

So, as an example, why did we miss the playoffs?

 

If you look at the stats and pick one reason, it's goaltending/defence.  Very clear.

 

So, a highly intelligent coach will try and coach their team into solving that issue.  Not PP.

It was mentioned on here that defence is a team thing.  That's how Sutter tried to coach it.

Result was we got a bunch of player agents whining that their guy couldn't practice 3 on 3.

 

The fact that the players vocally refused to go along with this and made a big deal about not being able to practice powerplay all day, is......   astounding.

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Players sure are embarrassing themselves right now.  Fine by me, I'm down for a rebuild.

 

Looks like cancer to me though.

 

90% of coach firings are to appease actual player problems.   This is not looking like an exception right now.

 

 

I know several on here have pointed out strategically why Sutter was making bench mistakes.  They revolved around 2 basic themes:

1.   Not playing youth

2.   Line decisions

 

The way I see it:

1.   Our youth wasn't that good after years of BT decimating our pipeline.   Sutter did not see it as his job to turn rocks into diamonds.  I tend to agree.  Our one great hope was an extremely small 25 year old who was not able to withstand AHL playoff pressures and failed to come through for his minor league team when he was needed. 

For this, I blame BT.  And sure, possibly the owners, we'll find out soon.

 

2.   Sutter is one of the smartest hockey minds on the planet.  He is beyond criticism of line choices honestly.  Nobody who thinks they could do better actually could.   Did he do weird things?   Yes.  Were there reasons?  You better believe there were.

A valid reason for firing Sutter would have been if he was the problem in the dressing room.    But it's becoming pretty clear now that we have a big handful of overpaid players who were the problem.   And continue to be after he's gone. 

For this, I blame BT.  And sure, possibly the owners, we'll see soon.

 

Now that the level of dysfunction is becoming more clear in the offseason and also independent of Sutter, I am...astounded he got us anywhere near the playoffs.   I am also fine with his departure, I highly suspect he is too good of a coach for the rebuild we need to do.

 

Those that choose to blames BT will find every possible excuse to do so.

90-100% of coach firings are because they failed to meet expectations.

Creating a toxic environment is a firing offense regardless of results.

So, in reasons why Sutter was fired 50% toxic, 35% performance, and 15% player whining.

 

A brialliant hockey mind adapts to the teams being played and the on ice events.

Rolling 4 lines is what a stopwatch can do.

Sub par performance by a line or a player should result in a change.

Change a player to get away from his strengths.

Sit young players that had a bad game and throw them on the 4th line.

 

A rebuild is very unlikely even though that is the only thing you want to see.

Lots of picks.  Lots of tracking junior or Euro careers.

Meanwhile, we structured the team to turn pver player when they hit a certain age.

All but Backlund and Markstrom are in the 2-3 years out stage.

We have been talking about trading out Backlund and Tanev and somewhat Toffoli for ages.

Get the best return for an older player that is a supplemental player.

Or in Tanev's case one that is starting to get more injuries.

But if one single player is rumored to want to move back to the USA, it's a pandemic. 

 

Sutter hocket sucked the life out of this team.

The only happy ones managed to have career seasons.

Toffoli who never played top line.

Zadorov who played closer to his original expectations.

Funny how Gudbranson didn't sign even though he "loved" Sutter.

Sutter was as much of a jerk about Guddy's tongue being split in half.

Compared the injury to stitching up a cow's tongue.

You can be a prick and win games.

Being a prick and not getting results is a waste of time.

[jjgallow]

15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Those that choose to blames BT will find every possible excuse to do so.

90-100% of coach firings are because they failed to meet expectations.

Creating a toxic environment is a firing offense regardless of results.

So, in reasons why Sutter was fired 50% toxic, 35% performance, and 15% player whining.

 

A brialliant hockey mind adapts to the teams being played and the on ice events.

Rolling 4 lines is what a stopwatch can do.

Sub par performance by a line or a player should result in a change.

Change a player to get away from his strengths.

Sit young players that had a bad game and throw them on the 4th line.

 

A rebuild is very unlikely even though that is the only thing you want to see.

Lots of picks.  Lots of tracking junior or Euro careers.

Meanwhile, we structured the team to turn pver player when they hit a certain age.

All but Backlund and Markstrom are in the 2-3 years out stage.

We have been talking about trading out Backlund and Tanev and somewhat Toffoli for ages.

Get the best return for an older player that is a supplemental player.

Or in Tanev's case one that is starting to get more injuries.

But if one single player is rumored to want to move back to the USA, it's a pandemic. 

 

Sutter hocket sucked the life out of this team.

The only happy ones managed to have career seasons.

Toffoli who never played top line.

Zadorov who played closer to his original expectations.

Funny how Gudbranson didn't sign even though he "loved" Sutter.

Sutter was as much of a jerk about Guddy's tongue being split in half.

Compared the injury to stitching up a cow's tongue.

You can be a prick and win games.

Being a prick and not getting results is a waste of time.

 

BT was the GM.  He hired Sutter.

 

An excuse, by definition, would be saying that this wasn't BT's fault, despite Sutter being the wrong hire.

 

I've seen a few times on these boards that claim any criticism of BT is just an excuse.   I kindly point out that he was in charge.

 

"he was in charge but....."    Is... an excuse.  By nature of what excuses mean.

[jjgallow]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

A rebuild is very unlikely even though that is the only thing you want to see.

 

Our core is already gone.  The only remaining side-pieces are acting like children.

 

We are in a rebuild, now.  The only thing about this that doesn't look like a rebuild, is that BT didn't get anything back.   Still a rebuild.

[The_Tribal Chief]

BT yes hire Sutter but he doesnt know how toxic Sutter is making the Room so that the players just learn to turn off there hearing aids when he walks in the room roflmao

[The_People1]

12 minutes ago, The_Tribal Chief said:

BT yes hire Sutter but he doesnt know how toxic Sutter is making the Room so that the players just learn to turn off there hearing aids when he walks in the room roflmao

 

Can't blame it all on Sutter.

 

Everyone bought in the year before and we were one of the best teams in the NHL.  And then we got some new players who came in and didn't buy in.  They whine.  They played like crap.  They got everybody fired.  And now fans are saying trade away everybody except those new players we got last year.

 

Seems more like the new players we got last year were the real problem.

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Can't blame it all on Sutter.

 

Everyone bought in the year before and we were one of the best teams in the NHL.  And then we got some new players who came in and didn't buy in.  They whine.  They played like crap.  They got everybody fired.  And now fans are saying trade away everybody except those new players we got last year.

 

Seems more like the new players we got last year were the real problem.

 

Yup.

 

Tell you what though, they are really going to help with getting the picks we need 😅

[flames for life]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

BT was the GM.  He hired Sutter.

 

An excuse, by definition, would be saying that this wasn't BT's fault, despite Sutter being the wrong hire.

 

I've seen a few times on these boards that claim any criticism of BT is just an excuse.   I kindly point out that he was in charge.

 

"he was in charge but....."    Is... an excuse.  By nature of what excuses mean.

Who said BT hired Sutter.  One forgets that BT has people pulling his strings as well.  I find it interesting that Sutter was hired both times when the team was showing a level of progress and skill that could push into the playoffs.  In both cases, the next year showed significant regression.  The only difference was that Sutter was given the GM reins the first time, which gave him the power to design the team to his liking.  History showed it as a failure.  This time he was not given that power, but imo, had enough influence to cause turmoil up the management chain and down into the player’s psyche and eventually into their play.

I seriously wonder, given Sutter’s reputation and history with the Flames, if BT was directed to hire Sutter in spite of his opinion or concerns.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yup.

 

Tell you what though, they are really going to help with getting the picks we need 😅

 

There are three ways to build a team.

 

The best is through the draft.

 

The second best is through trades.

 

The third and the worst is through UFA.  If trading Kadri, Huberdeau, and Weegar causes UFAs to not sign here again, then that's actually great.  And it's not like Giordano who took a discount to extend with us... Trading Giordano after taking a discount would be a brutal move from all angles.  These three players we got last season was paid fair market value.  You can argue Kadri got $1-mil above market value.  And definitely all three got too much term.  It's okay to trade them.  They didn't exactly do us favours by extending at fair market value and extra term.

[jjgallow]

26 minutes ago, flames for life said:

Who said BT hired Sutter.  One forgets that BT has people pulling his strings as well.  I find it interesting that Sutter was hired both times when the team was showing a level of progress and skill that could push into the playoffs.  In both cases, the next year showed significant regression.  The only difference was that Sutter was given the GM reins the first time, which gave him the power to design the team to his liking.  History showed it as a failure.  This time he was not given that power, but imo, had enough influence to cause turmoil up the management chain and down into the player’s psyche and eventually into their play.

I seriously wonder, given Sutter’s reputation and history with the Flames, if BT was directed to hire Sutter in spite of his opinion or concerns.

 

BT said that.

 

https://flamesnation.ca/news/brad-treliving-spoke-about-johnny-gaudreau-darryl-sutter-and-the-flames-locker-room-on-spittin-chiclets

 

“Well I had talked to him a few times over the years about coming in. At the time that I hired him, he was consulting and working with Anaheim, consulting with the coaches down there. I had gone to him before and it just wasn’t the right time for him. His farm here is about four hours from Calgary. I think he is an Alberta guy and this is where he should be at. When I went to him a year and a half ago, two years ago now, he was really interested and wanted a couple days to think about it and wanted to talk to his wife, Wanda. He made the decision to come. The amount of hours these guys put in, they’re all in. It’s a demanding job and he (Sutter) wanted to make sure he was wanting to do that again, because he is all in and certainly was. And we’re the benefactors for it because I think he’s done an unbelievable job for us, and rightly so was the coach of the year last year.”

[jjgallow]

12 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

There are three ways to build a team.

 

The best is through the draft.

 

The second best is through trades.

 

The third and the worst is through UFA.  If trading Kadri, Huberdeau, and Weegar causes UFAs to not sign here again, then that's actually great.  And it's not like Giordano who took a discount to extend with us... Trading Giordano after taking a discount would be a brutal move from all angles.  These three players we got last season was paid fair market value.  You can argue Kadri got $1-mil above market value.  And definitely all three got too much term.  It's okay to trade them.  They didn't exactly do us favours by extending at fair market value and extra term.

 

https://www.thespec.com/sports/no-handshake-from-kadri/article_3472c82d-8485-5de2-8a85-3ef649411338.html

 

"It was just that I felt like I didn't have to shake his hand.""

 

I was, instantly worried when we acquired him.

 

No matter what happens now, we're getting high draft picks.  Just comes down to what we do with them.

[cross16]

People really falling for a media driven story here. 
 

this whole “mass exodus” and things are poison is mostly crap imo. This is more about a team behind honest about where they stand that an organization that is rooted in issues.

 

the flames thought they had a core that could compete for a title so they did what they could to support it. They tried to piece it together for one more year to get an arena deal done and now they are understandably realizing the path wasn’t working. 
 

this is more about a natural evolution then it is about player revolt or unhappiness. 

[jjgallow]

5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

People really falling for a media driven story here. 
 

this whole “mass exodus” and things are poison is mostly crap imo. This is more about a team behind honest about where they stand that an organization that is rooted in issues.

 

the flames thought they had a core that could compete for a title so they did what they could to support it. They tried to piece it together for one more year to get an arena deal done and now they are understandably realizing the path wasn’t working. 
 

this is more about a natural evolution then it is about player revolt or unhappiness. 

 

I admit there's a lot of clickbait and I seem to be pissy today lol.

 

My preference would be to not blame the players, or the coach.  Really.

 

And I'm even okay with laying off BT since he isn't here.   The hate for Sutter triggers me, perhaps a little, for similar reasons.   He is just one piece in a larger system that, yes, includes an arena deal.

 

We can just hope that things progress better from here.

[flames for life]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

BT said that.

 

https://flamesnation.ca/news/brad-treliving-spoke-about-johnny-gaudreau-darryl-sutter-and-the-flames-locker-room-on-spittin-chiclets

 

“Well I had talked to him a few times over the years about coming in. At the time that I hired him, he was consulting and working with Anaheim, consulting with the coaches down there. I had gone to him before and it just wasn’t the right time for him. His farm here is about four hours from Calgary. I think he is an Alberta guy and this is where he should be at. When I went to him a year and a half ago, two years ago now, he was really interested and wanted a couple days to think about it and wanted to talk to his wife, Wanda. He made the decision to come. The amount of hours these guys put in, they’re all in. It’s a demanding job and he (Sutter) wanted to make sure he was wanting to do that again, because he is all in and certainly was. And we’re the benefactors for it because I think he’s done an unbelievable job for us, and rightly so was the coach of the year last year.”

I get the rhetoric, but it still doesn’t answer the unanswerable.  Was BT instructed to pursue Sutter no matter what, or did he choose to go on his own to get Sutter?  Of course the motivation to work in Alberta would be there because of family and farm, so on his part, pretty much a no-brainer.  The question remains, were there other options BT was looking at but roadblocks were put in place to narrow or eliminate coaches until no one but Sutter remained.

[jjgallow]

6 minutes ago, flames for life said:

I get the rhetoric, but it still doesn’t answer the unanswerable.  Was BT instructed to pursue Sutter no matter what, or did he choose to go on his own to get Sutter?  Of course the motivation to work in Alberta would be there because of family and farm, so on his part, pretty much a no-brainer.  The question remains, were there other options BT was looking at but roadblocks were put in place to narrow or eliminate coaches until no one but Sutter remained.

 

The thing about quotes like this is not just the fact that BT directly clarified that he chose to hire Sutter.

 

It's how highly he spoke of  him, on multiple occasions.

 

If you didn't want Sutter there, you have to be expert-level two-face to say those things and not mean them at all.

 

At the end of the day, he did what he did and he said what he said and if he was lying about it, that's even worse.

[cross16]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

The thing about quotes like this is not just the fact that BT directly clarified that he chose to hire Sutter.

 

It's how highly he spoke of  him, on multiple occasions.

 

If you didn't want Sutter there, you have to be expert-level two-face to say those things and not mean them at all.

 

At the end of the day, he did what he did and he said what he said and if he was lying about it, that's even worse.

yes he would definitely be the first GM in history to do something on behalf of the owners and take a positive PR stance about it. 
 

 

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

yes he would definitely be the first GM in history to do something on behalf of the owners and take a positive PR stance about it. 

 

I get that.   Still feel it's worse though.

[cross16]

Right how dare an employee of an organization go out of his way to protect said organization. 
 

is it worse that he had to do it in the first place but your looking at the wrong person to pin that on. 
 

Listen not everyone has to like Treliving or the job he did. His record of performance is up for debate. But I don’t think what is up for debate is Treliving lead this organization with dignity, class and was a great steward of the franchise. Pretty brutal some of the garbage being dumped on him on his way out, pretty much all of was not his fault IMO

[phoenix66]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

The thing about quotes like this is not just the fact that BT directly clarified that he chose to hire Sutter.

 

It's how highly he spoke of  him, on multiple occasions.

 

If you didn't want Sutter there, you have to be expert-level two-face to say those things and not mean them at all.

 

At the end of the day, he did what he did and he said what he said and if he was lying about it, that's even worse.

Tbh..  I still don't fully buy the " he left because of Sutter " .. bit . That has never been said except by media ..

We know he was offered an extension same time as Sutter ..but turned it down . They tried to resign him again , he not only turned it down , he quit .

I fully believe it was over autonomy and /or money .. 

For all we know truthfully, he may have been fighting to keep Sutter .he was in the exit meetings ..  it would have been really easy to wait for the internal reviews to be done to make his stand on Sutter staying or going after that . I find it still extremely hard to boeve the team under Maloney suddenly did a total 180 after BT had left ... we really don't know ..

I'm no doubts that once the core changed , Sutter was no longer the right coach for this team. I can be sold on that..  but he's gone , so why aren't these players all suddenly ok to stay?   There's more to it all .. and I truthfully believe a ton of it is/was  media driven 

 

I have no problem believing Tre played a large part in bringing Sutter in 

[jjgallow]

25 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Right how dare an employee of an organization go out of his way to protect said organization. 
 

is it worse that he had to do it in the first place but your looking at the wrong person to pin that on. 
 

Listen not everyone has to like Treliving or the job he did. His record of performance is up for debate. But I don’t think what is up for debate is Treliving lead this organization with dignity, class and was a great steward of the franchise. Pretty brutal some of the garbage being dumped on him on his way out, pretty much all of was not his fault IMO

 

I dunno I don't have any personal vendetta against Treliving or anyone else in the organization, I also see a lot of garbage being dumped on Sutter, and I don't think that's right.   Certainly if garbage is to be dumped on Sutter said garbage should also be dumped on BT and/or the owners.

 

I'm also fine with not dumping any garbage.  Or ...maybe dumping garbage entirely on the owners,  but I'm not there yet.   Until I am,  kindergarten rules.   I like how Sutter just keeps his mouth shut through all of this and maybe a better policy than allegedly saying things that are not true.  Never been a fan of "people in positions of power have justifications for lying, honesty is for the common  folk ".

[cross16]

There is no reason to dumb garbage on Sutter because this isn't all his fault either. He didn't do a good job last year, and I think even he'd admit that, but this isn't his fault either. If you want to point at anyone it's Edwards IMO. 

 

The point in all of this should be we don't need to assign blame because this is not about players wanting out. As I understand it the only player who "wants out" is Hanifin and it's because he wants to play  in the US, closer to home/family. 

Toffoli is about contract. He wanted a big term and the Flames don't want to go there so they are far apart, thus the trade rumor. 

Backlund is open to staying but i've also heard he isn't wanting to take a discount. He also isn't sure the team can win the next few years (think most would agree with him) and he wants to play for a cup. 

Lindholm is very open to staying but again it's a really tricky contract. I think Lindholm wants to cash in and I think the Flames are reluctant to give another max deal. I think Lindholm also isn't sure about committing here for 8 years knowing the team may not compete. 

 

I believe this is as much driven by the team as it is players so yes if the angle is Sutter created this mess than I would say that is false and equally as bad as pointing the finger at Trevling. 

 

I'm beating a dead horse here but i'm going to continue, this is about so much more than just a natural progression of a roster than it is about 1 or 2 people. That's media driven IMO. 

[oldschoolplayer]

11 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Players sure are embarrassing themselves right now.  Fine by me, I'm down for a rebuild.

 

Looks like cancer to me though.

 

90% of coach firings are to appease actual player problems.   This is not looking like an exception right now.

 

 

I know several on here have pointed out strategically why Sutter was making bench mistakes.  They revolved around 2 basic themes:

1.   Not playing youth

2.   Line decisions

 

The way I see it:

1.   Our youth wasn't that good after years of BT decimating our pipeline.   Sutter did not see it as his job to turn rocks into diamonds.  I tend to agree.  Our one great hope was an extremely small 25 year old who was not able to withstand AHL playoff pressures and failed to come through for his minor league team when he was needed. 

For this, I blame BT.  And sure, possibly the owners, we'll find out soon.

 

2.   Sutter is one of the smartest hockey minds on the planet.  He is beyond criticism of line choices honestly.  Nobody who thinks they could do better actually could.   Did he do weird things?   Yes.  Were there reasons?  You better believe there were.

A valid reason for firing Sutter would have been if he was the problem in the dressing room.    But it's becoming pretty clear now that we have a big handful of overpaid players who were the problem.   And continue to be after he's gone. 

For this, I blame BT.  And sure, possibly the owners, we'll see soon.

 

Now that the level of dysfunction is becoming more clear in the offseason and also independent of Sutter, I am...astounded he got us anywhere near the playoffs.   I am also fine with his departure, I highly suspect he is too good of a coach for the rebuild we need to do.

I'm with you 100%.

[oldschoolplayer]

10 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

So, as an example, why did we miss the playoffs?

 

If you look at the stats and pick one reason, it's goaltending/defence.  Very clear.

 

So, a highly intelligent coach will try and coach their team into solving that issue.  Not PP.

It was mentioned on here that defence is a team thing.  That's how Sutter tried to coach it.

Result was we got a bunch of player agents whining that their guy couldn't practice 3 on 3.

 

The fact that the players vocally refused to go along with this and made a big deal about not being able to practice powerplay all day, is......   astounding.

Exactly. BS. I would have moved everybody who wouldn't play for Sutter