Daryl Sutter and Flames

[sportbuzzard]

I am sick and tired of everyone piling on Daryl Sutter.
He has won 2 cups with LA and could have had 3, got the Flames to the finals in 2004. What has Trelving done? Overpaid for a lazy entitled player in Huberdeau and signed a player that doesn't care anymore because he has already won a cup. Do you think that Kadri came to Calgary to win another cup? Nope he is just cashing in. And for the winey Swedes like Lindholm and Backland, let them go. When did they have career years, under Sutter.  See how it works out for you boys.  

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, sportbuzzard said:

I am sick and tired of everyone piling on Daryl Sutter.
He has won 2 cups with LA and could have had 3, got the Flames to the finals in 2004. What has Trelving done? Overpaid for a lazy entitled player in Huberdeau and signed a player that doesn't care anymore because he has already won a cup. Do you think that Kadri came to Calgary to win another cup? Nope he is just cashing in. And for the winey Swedes like Lindholm and Backland, let them go. When did they have career years, under Sutter.  See how it works out for you boys.  

Please, feel free to expound on this most excellent post. You seem like you have a much better handle on things than the average fan. Enlighten us further,

[travel_dude]

I appreciate the opinion, but do we need a separate thread to discuss how you feel the coach is great, but the players and the GM suck?  There are enough threads for that.  BY no means does that mean you should not post, just keep in mind that people tend to post in the threads with the most discussion.  

[medatswhoP]

40 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

I appreciate the opinion, but do we need a separate thread to discuss how you feel the coach is great, but the players and the GM suck?  There are enough threads for that.  BY no means does that mean you should not post, just keep in mind that people tend to post in the threads with the most discussion.  

No we don't need another separate thread on Sutter, this is just frustration and understandable as we are all die hard fans, I would remove this thread and post this material in the many others discussing GM/Coach/Players.  Just my .05 cents , I'm keeping positive that come October we as fans will all be ready for another year of high expectations and positives not matter what happens on the ice or behind the bench wearing ties.

[travel_dude]

I'm not going to MOD this, just let the posters decide if they want to continue this narrow discussion.

[DirtyDeeds]

I find it amazing how 1 year Dutter can work magic with the Flames and win the division along with the Jack Adams while suddenly the next year he is old and antiquated methods are fail.  The major difference is the GM failed to keep the core of the better team together.

 

Chucky and Johnny were here for years before they put up that personal best line combo so why do we as fans expect the replacements to come in to a new team, with  a very new system, and get similar results????

 

They(Dutter and BT) told us that this team would have trouble scoring.

They told us this team would take some time to gel and get used to the system.

 

Dutters job is not to put the team together but rather play the team he thinks has  the best chance to win each game...

 

 

Maybe we have to give everyone a chance and a little time.

 

Getting  our new GM and the correct one(if we can find him) is the thing we have to put as priority. I don't think the Flames will hire a GM who demands his own coach right now. I don't see that in the cards at this time.

 

 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I find it amazing how 1 year Dutter can work magic with the Flames and win the division along with the Jack Adams while suddenly the next year he is old and antiquated methods are fail.  The major difference is the GM failed to keep the core of the better team together.

 

Chucky and Johnny were here for years before they put up that personal best line combo so why do we as fans expect the replacements to come in to a new team, with  a very new system, and get similar results????

 

They(Dutter and BT) told us that this team would have trouble scoring.

They told us this team would take some time to gel and get used to the system.

 

Dutters job is not to put the team together but rather play the team he thinks has  the best chance to win each game...

 

 

Maybe we have to give everyone a chance and a little time.

 

Getting  our new GM and the correct one(if we can find him) is the thing we have to put as priority. I don't think the Flames will hire a GM who demands his own coach right now. I don't see that in the cards at this time.

 

 

I was one that wasn't happy with the way they played last year. It was still a lot from the outside. But when they were top of the division I knew they were going for it and I jumped on the wagon...

 

 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I find it amazing how 1 year Dutter can work magic with the Flames and win the division along with the Jack Adams while suddenly the next year he is old and antiquated methods are fail.  The major difference is the GM failed to keep the core of the better team together.

 

Chucky and Johnny were here for years before they put up that personal best line combo so why do we as fans expect the replacements to come in to a new team, with  a very new system, and get similar results????

 

They(Dutter and BT) told us that this team would have trouble scoring.

They told us this team would take some time to gel and get used to the system.

 

Dutters job is not to put the team together but rather play the team he thinks has  the best chance to win each game...

 

 

Maybe we have to give everyone a chance and a little time.

 

Getting  our new GM and the correct one(if we can find him) is the thing we have to put as priority. I don't think the Flames will hire a GM who demands his own coach right now. I don't see that in the cards at this time.

 

Realistically, major retools take time to come together.  Sometimes, it takes 2 or 3 years (which is why it's always best to retool younger, not older).  Yet, the Flames exactly retooled older and there's no time to give.  These older core guys are going to age out of prime before the team gels.  Not to mention the coach is running up there in age as well.

 

I know many disagree with how much blame BT should take in Johnny leaving us for nothing but I do put most of the blame on BT.

 

Anyways though, I'm mentally and emotionally prepared for Sutter to be back next season.  He's just beginning his new deal so I doubt ownership wants to fire Sutter right now.  The new GM will be asked to work with Sutter at least for two years.

[conundrumed]

7 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Dutters job is not to put the team together but rather play the team he thinks has  the best chance to win each game...

 

This is where the criticism lives, and with merit.

Never shorten the bench, move Huberdeau to RW for a prolonged period etc.

It was honestly like watching obstinate personified. The team played exactly the same way all year, which was a personification of how it was coached. In a, "I know best and don't give a f#$% what anyone thinks" fashion imho.

So the coach needs to wear as much responsibility as the players, if not more. With the season on the line repeatedly, not one instance of shortening the bench. Plus, a whole year of not addressing the PP setup. He can't take credit for a good year and get a free pass for a lousy year. Add a GM needs to have some modicum of control over what his coach is doing, and that was clearly not the case.

Sutter is definitely not above reproach for this Satoshi Nakamotoshow.

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, conundrumed said:

This is where the criticism lives, and with merit.

Never shorten the bench, move Huberdeau to RW for a prolonged period etc.

It was honestly like watching obstinate personified. The team played exactly the same way all year, which was a personification of how it was coached. In a, "I know best and don't give a f#$% what anyone thinks" fashion imho.

So the coach needs to wear as much responsibility as the players, if not more. With the season on the line repeatedly, not one instance of shortening the bench. Plus, a whole year of not addressing the PP setup. He can't take credit for a good year and get a free pass for a lousy year. Add a GM needs to have some modicum of control over what his coach is doing, and that was clearly not the case.

Sutter is definitely not above reproach for this Satoshi Nakamotoshow.

 

Yeah I agree with all of the above.

 

I have thought about this and I agree that the criticisms of Sutter are valid.

 

It should be said though, that Sutter was very highly praised here until very recently, and that "blame the coach" is... a time honored tradition among teams entering rebuilds.

 

Seems we have decided on here not to blame BT, but rather the owners, I am not close enough to know if this is right or wrong.

Either way...

 

 

Sutter does share some of the blame.   But, I look forward to the "replacement coach #5", and their 20-games of winning before we drop off the next cliff into our very clear and inevitable rebuild.

[cross16]

15 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I find it amazing how 1 year Dutter can work magic with the Flames and win the division along with the Jack Adams while suddenly the next year he is old and antiquated methods are fail.  The major difference is the GM failed to keep the core of the better team together.

 

Chucky and Johnny were here for years before they put up that personal best line combo so why do we as fans expect the replacements to come in to a new team, with  a very new system, and get similar results????

 

They(Dutter and BT) told us that this team would have trouble scoring.

They told us this team would take some time to gel and get used to the system.

 

Dutters job is not to put the team together but rather play the team he thinks has  the best chance to win each game...

 

 

Maybe we have to give everyone a chance and a little time.

 

Getting  our new GM and the correct one(if we can find him) is the thing we have to put as priority. I don't think the Flames will hire a GM who demands his own coach right now. I don't see that in the cards at this time.

 

 

 

Well first off this assumes he "worked magic" last year. There were concerns about this last year too especially post playoffs (where he got out coached by a rookie head coach). 

 

But why do we assume a coaches performance year over year is the same? I don't think we saw the same Sutter this year as we did last year and many close to the team (including Warrener who use to play for him) pointed this out too. Last year he played the us against the world card and it worked. This year he had no such plan and IMO ended up over coaching the team by creating a negative atmosphere from the get go. He wasn't the same coach this year. I agree with not putting this all on Sutter, it's not all the coach but I think this narrative that he was fantastic last year and therefore shouldn't be looked at this year is false. Like many of the good players here, his performance slid. 

 

I would also be cautious about blaming the GM for losing the core as a means to absolve the head coach. Think he was very much a factor in the core not being here. 

[The_People1]

Bob Hartley did similar for us.  The one year we made the playoffs and upset the Canucks in the first round, Hartley had the whole team playing 110%.  Flames were rebuilding and had no star power so his motto was, "play hard and you get to play more".  It worked.  It felt like he built a new identity for the Flames again... But then, the following season he stopped.  He went back to playing favorites.  He destroyed everything good that he built the year before.  Flames missed the playoffs and he was fired.

 

It was perplexing as to why he found a winning formula and then stopped doing it and expected the same results.

[travel_dude]

40 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yeah I agree with all of the above.

 

I have thought about this and I agree that the criticisms of Sutter are valid.

 

It should be said though, that Sutter was very highly praised here until very recently, and that "blame the coach" is... a time honored tradition among teams entering rebuilds.

 

Seems we have decided on here not to blame BT, but rather the owners, I am not close enough to know if this is right or wrong.

Either way...

 

 

Sutter does share some of the blame.   But, I look forward to the "replacement coach #5", and their 20-games of winning before we drop off the next cliff into our very clear and inevitable rebuild.

 

Are we reallyt blaming the owners except for not allowing a mini rebuild?  They signed off on a trade of Tkachuk for very high value targeys that were in the window of their careers (much like Gaudreau was).  Many didn't agree with it and perhaps the owners are th ones that were too short sighted to deal with CAR's offer.  IT was a radical shift, but we end up with possibly just one player back.  

 

So, results.  Largely the same team.  A better D as a replacement for missing Kylington.  A top 6 C to add to the mix.  A top rated LW.  First win streak to start the season in like forever, and it's time to bag skate the team and change the mindset.  Huberdeau has visions of playing a top 6 role with our best C and probably our best finisher remaining.  That lasts 6 games or so.  Injury and replace him on the top line with Ruzicka.  Magic, but need to fix that player.  Drop him down the lineup until he loses the magic.  Then scratch for the rest of the year.  Play an inept 4th line like they are an energy line.  Roll 4.  Matchups are not important.  Chemistry is not important, just play where your performance defines you.  Only in the top 6 perhaps.  Define a young set of D as not being worth playing or keeping.  Trash young prospects because of size or impact playing a couple of games of limited minutes.  Play the starter only, when his performance at the end of the season suggests he's only playing average.  Let another goalie go cold to the point that his streak of games with points ends, then sit him again.  

 

Blame the coach is wrong because we have fired a bunch of them?  Rooney may not have been a good target for BT, but that was well before the Tkachuk trade.  Trading Monahan to sign Kadri may be horrible asset management (1st rounder) but he was broken for years.  If there was an option of keeping Monahan and flipping him at TDL, I would have been all ears.  Hard to sell any teams on Lucic.  There were several UFA's that I was interested in and several trades that came out of nowhere, but the die was cast with the coach.  We couldn't exactly get quality when all we had to trade was picks and prospects.  At least while we were trying to maintain the mantra of going for it.

 

Fire the whole lot of them.  Not one of them has had success this year in their respective areas.  Find a GM that will fill the coaching staff with a winning formula and find the players to fit that.  Staying with the same coaches likely means we have to trade 30% of the players.  

 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

Fire the whole lot of them.  Not one of them has had success this year in their respective areas.  Find a GM that will fill the coaching staff with a winning formula and find the players to fit that.  Staying with the same coaches likely means we have to trade 30% of the players.  

 

 

Sorry to truncate your post, the new forum software only shows the first few lines so that's why.

 

So, I'm not saying I'm happy with Sutter right now lol.    I won't die on that hill.

 

I'm just saying there isn't a coach in the world bad enough to be fully responsible for where we, and our contracts, and our prospects are currently at.

 

Is bigger.   You're angry.   I like it.   Everyone's angry, or, some version of it.

 

Good.  Should be.

 

"Fire the whole lot of them":    5 stars.

 

Point is, I'm totally cool with the coach human sacrifice ritual.   He's not gonna starve.

 

It won't be over then though.

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Sorry to truncate your post, the new forum software only shows the first few lines so that's why.

 

So, I'm not saying I'm happy with Sutter right now lol.    I won't die on that hill.

 

I'm just saying there isn't a coach in the world bad enough to be fully responsible for where we, and our contracts, and our prospects are currently at.

 

Is bigger.   You're angry.   I like it.   Everyone's angry, or, some version of it.

 

Good.  Should be.

 

"Fire the whole lot of them":    5 stars.

 

Point is, I'm totally cool with the coach human sacrifice ritual.   He's not gonna starve.

 

It won't be over then though.

 

I'm not sure what you mean "the new software only..." .

 

BTW, I am angry about the coaching.   PP points there.  No changes to strategy.

Goalies.  Can't blame the GAA and SA% on coaches, but what changes happened as a result of the EDM series?

As well, who's brilliant ideas were used when evaluating who should get the start?  

There were times that one was playing good and got sat.

Using Markstrom in the 1st of a B2B and the backup wins the 2nd game.

The odd time they got it right.

Lines.  I don't think you can fault the players for not performing in the wrong position.

Team.  I don't think you can fault Lucic for being useless.  

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm not sure what you mean "the new software only..." .

 

BTW, I am angry about the coaching.   PP points there.  No changes to strategy.

Goalies.  Can't blame the GAA and SA% on coaches, but what changes happened as a result of the EDM series?

As well, who's brilliant ideas were used when evaluating who should get the start?  

There were times that one was playing good and got sat.

Using Markstrom in the 1st of a B2B and the backup wins the 2nd game.

The odd time they got it right.

Lines.  I don't think you can fault the players for not performing in the wrong position.

Team.  I don't think you can fault Lucic for being useless.  

 

I support you in your anger.  

 

Just remember who hired Sutter and gave him the boat anchor contract.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I support you in your anger.  

 

Just remember who hired Sutter and gave him the boat anchor contract.

 

Owners?  And BT for the boat stoppers.

[jjgallow]

15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Owners?  And BT for the boat stoppers.

 

Dunno.  But I'm cool with that.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Dunno.  But I'm cool with that.

 

You won't be cool with this.

I am mad that the coach resulted in the GM leaving.

Sometimes you have a world class coach and the GM screwed things up so bad it was time.

Sometimes both are at fault and they both go.

Sometimes the coach is the one that messed up a good team and the GM takes the fall.

 

What we seem to have is case 3.

[cross16]

23 hours ago, The_People1 said:

Bob Hartley did similar for us.  The one year we made the playoffs and upset the Canucks in the first round, Hartley had the whole team playing 110%.  Flames were rebuilding and had no star power so his motto was, "play hard and you get to play more".  It worked.  It felt like he built a new identity for the Flames again... But then, the following season he stopped.  He went back to playing favorites.  He destroyed everything good that he built the year before.  Flames missed the playoffs and he was fired.

 

It was perplexing as to why he found a winning formula and then stopped doing it and expected the same results.

 

IMO it comes down to expectations. "Always earned never given" works really well when there are no outside expectations that your team is going to win anything because it becomes galvanizing message. Work hard and we'll prove them wrong (same card Sutter played last year) but once there are expectations that you are going to win that message becomes challenging. I worked 100% last year and we overachieved so now to achieve the next level I have to work what 110%? 120%? What's the message/communication on the days I don't have 100%? Couple that with behind the scenes you know coaches like Hartley/Sutter are really grinding on the players that once you stop overachieving its a team, or any losing sets in, it really highlights that at the end of the day my coach is just an Hash Rate.

 

My working theory anyway. Why i think you don't see a lot of coaches start and finish a rebuild. The coach who gets you to that consistent level is almost never the one who keeps you there because the message has to change and in some cases the coach does too. Catch 22 though because that same coach got the success doing it his way so what's his motivation to change?

 

Why i think that even though I agree Sutter needs to change the way he coaches I don't think he will. 

[travel_dude]

I can't believe we are still talking about Hartley.  But I guess that is par for the course.  We have had successive coaches that have one year of success and the next year failed.  Or in Gully's case failed, then got us a round in the playoffs.  Or Ward that had neither.  from the outside, it looked like the coach turned nasty after their first full season.  

 

Sutter had a good team to work with in 21/22 and got as far as goaltending and injuries would take the team.

I felt there was things he could have adjusted that might have changed the EDM series.

That series exposed our weakness of the 4th line.

 

Follow that up with the same decision making, plus trying to beat into a team the need for 100% every game, and you likely see some start to give up.  It's fine if you see the results, for awhile.  When all the hard work sees you fighting for wins because of silly coaching decisions, then you really have to question the effectiveness of that style.  I was not in the room, so I can only guess that players rolled their eyes sometimes after the coach's comments.  At times it seemed the team was more comfortable playing in front of Vladar because they knew that he would likely make enough saves if they scored a timely goal.  Whereas with Marksrom they figured they needed to recover from an early goal against and gripped their sticks a bit much.  And Sutter would be preaching a 3-2 league and greasy goals and shot volume.

[tmac70]

The reasoning as to why we keep going through coaches reminds me of Goldilocks and the three bears. There either too soft to hard, and they can never find just the right. Then we have the minions that think they know the right way but have never done anything in their lives putting forth lame-arse arguments for the roster we should have player usage, yes  I would be one as well, lol. Win the division one year don't make the playoffs the next, this is a CGY franchise it's been this way forever. It's easy to sit here and spitball what one would do because we are all experts and know more than the people in charge. For those who believe the owners need to change then strike them a check for $855 million, lol, its so easy to spend other people's money. Those of you who think that there isn't an owner of a team that does have any say or input into what happens with a club for hires and trades are foolish. There are NO  GMs allowed full autonomy of a club where the team's owner doesn't have some form of final say or input with the hiring trades or signings. 

 

Is Sutter staying or is he going no idea, IMHO the longer this goes on the worse it would be for DS. The next steps have to be done correctly or this will only get worse. What troubles me with all of this is the players, where is their accountability?  IMHO I simply can't see that a coaching change instantly creates a better product or effort on the ice, can't see it. Will players have a bounce back year 100% why, we have a boatload that need new contracts, there are your incentives. Every time its contracts year motivation increases from the year previous. This same team WOULD be drastically better solely on that which is frustrating at best 

 

 

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

The reasoning as to why we keep going through coaches reminds me of Goldilocks and the three bears. There either too soft to hard, and they can never find just the right. Then we have the minions that think they know the right way but have never done anything in their lives putting forth lame-arse arguments for the roster we should have player usage, yes  I would be one as well, lol. Win the division one year don't make the playoffs the next, this is a CGY franchise it's been this way forever. It's easy to sit here and spitball what one would do because we are all experts and know more than the people in charge. For those who believe the owners need to change then strike them a check for $855 million, lol, its so easy to spend other people's money. Those of you who think that there isn't an owner of a team that does have any say or input into what happens with a club for hires and trades are foolish. There are NO  GMs allowed full autonomy of a club where the team's owner doesn't have some form of final say or input with the hiring trades or signings. 

 

Is Sutter staying or is he going no idea, IMHO the longer this goes on the worse it would be for DS. The next steps have to be done correctly or this will only get worse. What troubles me with all of this is the players, where is their accountability?  IMHO I simply can't see that a coaching change instantly creates a better product or effort on the ice, can't see it. Will players have a bounce back year 100% why, we have a boatload that need new contracts, there are your incentives. Every time its contracts year motivation increases from the year previous. This same team WOULD be drastically better solely on that which is frustrating at best 

 

 

 

Seeing that every team struggles to find and keep a coach, I don't think it's a fairy tale.

You are insulting a lot of people here with no idea of what they have done, so please refrain from doing this.

It's a discussion board, so keep that in mind, just because you don't agree with them.

 

Motivation is difficult to define.  Studies show that monetary reward is below a lot of other things.

If all you do is show up for a paycheck, then you won't enjoy much in your life.

 

When I read things like the following, I am left to wonder if this is a toxic work environment:

"Sources say several key players made it abundantly clear in their exit interviews with Maloney and Treliving that the environment in which they are working is untenable."

That sounds toxic to me.  I have worked in such environments and it comes from the top down.  Surefire way to have talent want to leave.  Tkachuk, Gudbranson and Jarnkrok walked.  Tkachuk would have known the environment in FLA (from Bennett).  Guddy got a good offer elsewhere.  Was made fun of for taking a long time to have his tongue sewed back on during a game.  Jarnkrok's cousin is a Flame, but I guess he had no interest here?  

 

We really don't know how the team as a whole feels about the coach.  The owners GAVE Sutter a 2 year extension over what the GM was going to offer.  The rumors of players undecided about their future as a Flame.  Possibly this is all smoke.  Or the fire is raging.

[DirtyDeeds]

On 4/23/2023 at 12:23 PM, cross16 said:

 

Well first off this assumes he "worked magic" last year. There were concerns about this last year too especially post playoffs (where he got out coached by a rookie head coach). 

 

But why do we assume a coaches performance year over year is the same? I don't think we saw the same Sutter this year as we did last year and many close to the team (including Warrener who use to play for him) pointed this out too. Last year he played the us against the world card and it worked. This year he had no such plan and IMO ended up over coaching the team by creating a negative atmosphere from the get go. He wasn't the same coach this year. I agree with not putting this all on Sutter, it's not all the coach but I think this narrative that he was fantastic last year and therefore shouldn't be looked at this year is false. Like many of the good players here, his performance slid. 

 

I would also be cautious about blaming the GM for losing the core as a means to absolve the head coach. Think he was very much a factor in the core not being here. 

He obviously worked magic the previous year, he won the division, made the playoffs, had multiple player have personal best years and won the Jack Adams doing that. It was a huge swing for the better from the previous coach(s).

 

While he is not blameless (there is plenty blame for everyone). I was not saying BT losing the core absolved him at all.

 

Who could have predicted Markstrom would have a year like this coming off a 2nd in Vesna voting season? He had 9 shutouts last season... Hell even with the struggles of our new roster pickups if we had half of those shutouts we would be in the playoffs this season.

 

I don't buy the "we against the world" comparison. both BT and Dutter understood that the loss of Johnny and the loss of Chucky would mean drastic changes. They tried to prepare us by telling us they were a marginal playoff team and that we would be hard pressed to score goals. Both predictions proved to be true unless you think they were just covering their butts.

 

None of us can say what was going on behind the scenes. Owners and executives have to take a huge part of this blame too. I was under the impression that Dutter was an Owner/Executive hire even though BT made the original announcement. We had to do something and Dutter brought structure to the team systems.

 

 

Now we have Bean saying our team is fine and they are not even allowed to say rebuild word. Really??? That can't be the take/conclusion all the yes people have come to is it? I want some of those drugs / kool-aid they are taking.

 

 

[cross16]

22 hours ago, tmac70 said:

The reasoning as to why we keep going through coaches reminds me of Goldilocks and the three bears. There either too soft to hard, and they can never find just the right. Then we have the minions that think they know the right way but have never done anything in their lives putting forth lame-arse arguments for the roster we should have player usage, yes  I would be one as well, lol. Win the division one year don't make the playoffs the next, this is a CGY franchise it's been this way forever. It's easy to sit here and spitball what one would do because we are all experts and know more than the people in charge. For those who believe the owners need to change then strike them a check for $855 million, lol, its so easy to spend other people's money. Those of you who think that there isn't an owner of a team that does have any say or input into what happens with a club for hires and trades are foolish. There are NO  GMs allowed full autonomy of a club where the team's owner doesn't have some form of final say or input with the hiring trades or signings. 

 

Is Sutter staying or is he going no idea, IMHO the longer this goes on the worse it would be for DS. The next steps have to be done correctly or this will only get worse. What troubles me with all of this is the players, where is their accountability?  IMHO I simply can't see that a coaching change instantly creates a better product or effort on the ice, can't see it. Will players have a bounce back year 100% why, we have a boatload that need new contracts, there are your incentives. Every time its contracts year motivation increases from the year previous. This same team WOULD be drastically better solely on that which is frustrating at best 

 

 

 

 

I agree that there is not full autonomy. An owner has every right to be involved especially before they cut a big check. 

 

But there is involvement and then there is meddling or overriding. I don't thin it's a fine line and it's becoming more and more clear which one is happening in Calgary.

 

Good owners know when to be involved and when to back off and let hockey people make hockey ops decision. I don't' think that is what is happening here and what people are getting at with wanting more autonym for GMs.