Daryl Sutter and Flames

[travel_dude]

14 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

He obviously worked magic the previous year, he won the division, made the playoffs, had multiple player have personal best years and won the Jack Adams doing that. It was a huge swing for the better from the previous coach(s).

 

While he is not blameless (there is plenty blame for everyone). I was not saying BT losing the core absolved him at all.

 

Who could have predicted Markstrom would have a year like this coming off a 2nd in Vesna voting season? He had 9 shutouts last season... Hell even with the struggles of our new roster pickups if we had half of those shutouts we would be in the playoffs this season.

 

I don't buy the "we against the world" comparison. both BT and Dutter understood that the loss of Johnny and the loss of Chucky would mean drastic changes. They tried to prepare us by telling us they were a marginal playoff team and that we would be hard pressed to score goals. Both predictions proved to be true unless you think they were just covering their butts.

 

None of us can say what was going on behind the scenes. Owners and executives have to take a huge part of this blame too. I was under the impression that Dutter was an Owner/Executive hire even though BT made the original announcement. We had to do something and Dutter brought structure to the team systems.

 

 

Now we have Bean saying our team is fine and they are not even allowed to say rebuild word. Really??? That can't be the take/conclusion all the yes people have come to is it? I want some of those drugs / kool-aid they are taking.

 

 

 

Where I think Sutter failed was in his denial of making changes in a game or after a bad one.  Or not recognizing when something was working.  Goalies sucked, but we didn't shorten the bench at all?  Roll 4 lines?  I made the observation that at the end of every PP, we would start the 4th line.

That is normally the time when a team coming off a PK pushes back and has key players out there to counter.

We won 5 of 6, to start the season but needed to changes the lines?

Yet we saw an underperforming Huberdeau playing on the wrong wing for 40+ games.

 

The players have a huge responsibility for the season's results.  We scored something like 30 less goals this season.  We lost two 40 goal guys and managed that.  Not giving them a pass for that.  We had 44 more goals against this year.  

 

But I would suggest that a team will more likely follow specific coaching methods if those methods are proving successful, even if it takes awhile to see success  They did last year, and players bought in until the failure of the playoffs.  Maybe they were okay for the first half of this year, but we saw the struggles getting worse and nothing really changed.  Sutter benched Lucic for 3 games later this season, yet he promoted him to top 6 after that.  We can argue about the effectiveness of Duehr, Ruzicka, Phillips and Pelletier, but in critical season deciding games, they were left out of discussion.  Lucic with 43 PIM and Lewis 18 this season.  -13 and -7 for the season.  

 

Whoever the coach is next season, there can't be such a big disconnect between the coach and GM.  We lost players due to that this season.  And there apears to be a rift between 1/2 of the team and the coach.  Sort it out.

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

 

I agree that there is not full autonomy. An owner has every right to be involved especially before they cut a big check. 

 

But there is involvement and then there is meddling or overriding. I don't thin it's a fine line and it's becoming more and more clear which one is happening in Calgary.

 

Good owners know when to be involved and when to back off and let hockey people make hockey ops decision. I don't' think that is what is happening here and what people are getting at with wanting more autonym for GMs. 

Some say the owners hired DS and then there is interviews with Trevling stating that he and Daryl had a conversation for years before he hired him. I don't have as good a pulse on the situation as you may but from what I see on the surface this was a Trevling hire, with the owner's backing and blessings. I see ownership involved at certain points but there are things that have transpired with Tre that indicate he does or did have more decision power than we think. Also, we did go through a rebuild with Tre as we had JG as a franchise guy, 3 top 6 picks as well. The owner's mandate is just to get in which creates the just average attitude, of what we have been for decades. 

 

Trevling left us with no franchise players, 2 really bad contracts, a prospect pool that is very slim, and 6 UFAs that need to be dealt with, unhappy staff, players, and distention among players and coaches. The fact that it's being spun that his departure is because of Sutter IMHO is ridiculous, could it have been part of the reason, no one will ever know.  

 Sutter and the players don't get a pass either, there is lots of blame to go around. We can all agree Sutter needs to change his ways, methods, and tactics, as the players need to be better as well. Personally, if the players are given the chance to redeem themselves then Sutter should be as well.  Everyone should be given a short leash, specific instructions next season, and a good slap of get the F over it and move on, it is like adult day cares for Christ's sake. Grown men make millions acting like children, it is just to bad that this pent-up aggression was not focused on the opposition more than each other.  

[cross16]

24 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Some say the owners hired DS and then there is interviews with Trevling stating that he and Daryl had a conversation for years before he hired him. I don't have as good a pulse on the situation as you may but from what I see on the surface this was a Trevling hire, with the owner's backing and blessings. I see ownership involved at certain points but there are things that have transpired with Tre that indicate he does or did have more decision power than we think. Also, we did go through a rebuild with Tre as we had JG as a franchise guy, 3 top 6 picks as well. The owner's mandate is just to get in which creates the just average attitude, of what we have been for decades. 

 

Trevling left us with no franchise players, 2 really bad contracts, a prospect pool that is very slim, and 6 UFAs that need to be dealt with, unhappy staff, players, and distention among players and coaches. The fact that it's being spun that his departure is because of Sutter IMHO is ridiculous, could it have been part of the reason, no one will ever know.  

 Sutter and the players don't get a pass either, there is lots of blame to go around. We can all agree Sutter needs to change his ways, methods, and tactics, as the players need to be better as well. Personally, if the players are given the chance to redeem themselves then Sutter should be as well.  Everyone should be given a short leash, specific instructions next season, and a good slap of get the F over it and move on, it is like adult day cares for Christ's sake. Grown men make millions acting like children, it is just to bad that this pent-up aggression was not focused on the opposition more than each other.  

 

Rather than try and respond individually I will just point out that there is a pattern here and the pattern goes above the GM and the head coach. That patterns if one of deals being rejected by ownership, coaches being decided upon not by GMs, parameters being restrictive, and hockey based decision being made not by hockey ops. This patterns goes back to the days of Darryl Sutter being the GM. 

So all i'll say if people choose to lay it all on Treliving they can but just prepare yourself to blame the next GM when he behaves the same way. 

 

I also don't think anyone with any insight into the situation has framed this as Treliving left because of Sutter. A factor yes but not the sole reason, that's fans talking. 

[Heartbreaker]

33 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

... We can all agree Sutter needs to change his ways, methods, and tactics...

 

Abridged to highlight the specific point, and not have it get lost below the fold.

 

If you need a coach to change everything, it's probably a lot less painful to just change the coach.

 

Love.

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

Abridged to highlight the specific point, and not have it get lost below the fold.

 

If you need a coach to change everything, it's probably a lot less painful to just change the coach.

 

Love.

 

I wonder if Brunette would be a good replacement.

ABS.

[tmac70]

26 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

Abridged to highlight the specific point, and not have it get lost below the fold.

 

If you need a coach to change everything, it's probably a lot less painful to just change the coach.

 

Love.

 Perfect then who's next that we can fire in a year? 

 

38 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Rather than try and respond individually I will just point out that there is a pattern here and the pattern goes above the GM and the head coach. That patterns if one of deals being rejected by ownership, coaches being decided upon not by GMs, parameters being restrictive, and hockey based decision being made not by hockey ops. This patterns goes back to the days of Darryl Sutter being the GM. 

So all i'll say if people choose to lay it all on Treliving they can but just prepare yourself to blame the next GM when he behaves the same way. 

 

I also don't think anyone with any insight into the situation has framed this as Treliving left because of Sutter. A factor yes but not the sole reason, that's fans talking. 

Can you absolutely confirm that Sutter was hired by the owners and not Trevling, because there seem to be conflicting stories on this? 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

Some say the owners hired DS and then there is interviews with Trevling stating that he and Daryl had a conversation for years before he hired him. I don't have as good a pulse on the situation as you may but from what I see on the surface this was a Trevling hire, with the owner's backing and blessings. I see ownership involved at certain points but there are things that have transpired with Tre that indicate he does or did have more decision power than we think. Also, we did go through a rebuild with Tre as we had JG as a franchise guy, 3 top 6 picks as well. The owner's mandate is just to get in which creates the just average attitude, of what we have been for decades. 

 

You aren't going to be able to turn up absolute proof of any owners here making decisions.  Seeing that Bean called Johnny Hockey during the final negotiation suggests that he was involved a little more than just giving blessings.  The trade of Tkachuk implies that the only option was to replace a franchise player with something close to that.  

 

19 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Perfect then who's next that we can fire in a year? 

 

How many coaching choices paid for the best available?

Hartley - nope

Gully - hardly

Peters - not from what I understood, besides we didn't fire him, he was forced to resign due to Alieu situation.

Sutter - mid-season replacement, so hard to tell if there even was a search

[cross16]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

Can you absolutely confirm that Sutter was hired by the owners and not Trevling, because there seem to be conflicting stories on this? 

 

I can't say that for certain no. But i will say that all of the smoke around it is that it was an ownership call. Does that mean ownership called Sutter directly or just told Treliving "we'll give you the budget for Sutter and no one else" I don't know but I don't believe Sutter was who Treliving wanted. 

 

The only conflicting story is Treliving on splitting chiclets saying he was talking to Darryl Sutter for a while before the hired him which is actually already pretty well known. But at the same time what do you expect him to say? " I don't like this guy but my boss made me hire him?". Can accuse Treliving of a few things but being a respectful and professional voice for the organization was never one of them. 

 

I was also referring to past scenarios as well. Was reported at the time that Sutter didn't want to fire Keenan but the owners did. This isn't the first time this has come up. 

[jjgallow]

Man,

 

You know what we should do to voice our displeasure?  We should spell Sutter's name wrong right in the title of the post.

 

Then keep bumping the thread.   But, like, about Hartley.

 

Can we do that?

[travel_dude]

46 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Man,

 

You know what we should do to voice our displeasure?  We should spell Sutter's name wrong right in the title of the post.

 

Then keep bumping the thread.   But, like, about Hartley.

 

Can we do that?

 

The spelling was thanks to the OP.

I prefer the Dutter reference as well as Butter for his brother.

 

 

[DirtyDeeds]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

Man,

 

You know what we should do to voice our displeasure?  We should spell Sutter's name wrong right in the title of the post.

 

Then keep bumping the thread.   But, like, about Hartley.

 

Can we do that?

Are you thinking all we fell for the Trolls' 1st post thingy? Lets incite the Flames Masses?

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Are you thinking all we fell for the Trolls' 1st post thingy? Lets incite the Flames Masses?

 

Something like the opposite of that maybe.   I think it's super important to remind new posters that they are new.   That's the only way to get explosive growth here.

 

All the vets stepped up to the plate and it started a thread lol

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Something like the opposite of that maybe.   I think it's super important to remind new posters that they are new.   That's the only way to get explosive growth here.

 

All the vets stepped up to the plate and it started a thread lol

 

Well, it seems that if a thread is started, they will come.  Mt best efforts to ignore it and let it die fell apart quickly.

I suppose it a better (misspelled) name for a thread than Flames # Coach.

[jjgallow]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, it seems that if a thread is started, they will come.  Mt best efforts to ignore it and let it die fell apart quickly.

I suppose it a better (misspelled) name for a thread than Flames # Coach.

 

As long as the thread isn't about defense lol

[travel_dude]

6 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

As long as the thread isn't about defense lol

 

Or maybe another Blow up? one.

[tmac70]

Just watch Bowness'e interview after their series loss to Vegas......Maybe he should be hung out like Sutter for his comments. What troubles me in today's world is everyone wants the truth but simply can't handle the truth, because when it's provided you are the bad guy. I did see an interview on Sportsnet with a basketball player, for the Bucks who gave a great answer to one of the reporters about the season being a disappointment. It was a great insight into the process and what winning is all about. He talks about the process of winning and the steps to winning and losing is a big part of that, which sounds very similar to what we hear. 

 

Been also hearing that some contract players are going to boycott if Sutter is back, for that reason alone I hope they bring him back. If you can't fight through adversity IMHO tells me all I need to know about you as an individual. 

[conundrumed]

45 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Been also hearing that some contract players are going to boycott if Sutter is back, for that reason alone I hope they bring him back. If you can't fight through adversity IMHO tells me all I need to know about you as an individual. 

Without question. Unfortunately, they're talking out of their Hash Rate with empty threats. I'd call them on it every single time if I were GM. "Good. Maybe talk to the PA first, I'm sure they'll love the idea and not lose their Satoshi Nakamoto on you. Breach your contract, see where that takes your career".

[tmac70]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Without question. Unfortunately, they're talking out of their Hash Rate with empty threats. I'd call them on it every single time if I were GM. "Good. Maybe talk to the PA first, I'm sure they'll love the idea and not lose their Satoshi Nakamoto on you. Breach your contract, see where that takes your career".

I am fine with employees or players having rights but this is going beyond ridiculous. As a business owner, this is the issue, you now have inmates running the asylum. If it's not life-changing life-threatening or life alternating then get over yourself. If the players have the ability to say I am taking my bat and ball and going home, there has to be something the CBA or contract that can release them from it to protect the owners. This also should be an eye-opener for Sutter, with some veteran players. The younger guys are willing to do what it takes but the veterans want a cozy work environment, no effort, and maximum pay, there not winning material there whiners. Possibly could be some good comes out of this as the cream will rise to the top and you can remove the curds. 

[cross16]

What a bunch of BS. 

 

Maybe people just don't want to work in a toxic environment. Maybe people realize that working in said environment is not conducive to maximizing their skill and potential. so just because they are not prepard to sit there and take it from some just because they are the "coach" we have to belittle them. Completely and utter crap IMO. 

 

Nazim Kadri just got finished playing for Jared Bednar, one of the best coaches in the league IMO and coming off a cup win. Pretty good leader to follow. Personally if he is seeing issues with Sutter, based on who he just worked for, i'd be listening to Kadri. 

 

PS - no one is going to boycott so let's be serious here. Stop inventing problem and situations that don't exist. They'll ask for trades and then it's up to the new GM to handle that. Think we'd be surprised at how many trade requests actually get asked for across the league. 

[conundrumed]

56 minutes ago, cross16 said:

What a bunch of BS. 

 

Maybe people just don't want to work in a toxic environment. Maybe people realize that working in said environment is not conducive to maximizing their skill and potential. so just because they are not prepard to sit there and take it from some just because they are the "coach" we have to belittle them. Completely and utter crap IMO. 

 

Nazim Kadri just got finished playing for Jared Bednar, one of the best coaches in the league IMO and coming off a cup win. Pretty good leader to follow. Personally if he is seeing issues with Sutter, based on who he just worked for, i'd be listening to Kadri. 

 

PS - no one is going to boycott so let's be serious here. Stop inventing problem and situations that don't exist. They'll ask for trades and then it's up to the new GM to handle that. Think we'd be surprised at how many trade requests actually get asked for across the league. 

It was reported. By Dreger I believe.

Per Dreger:

“We can tell by the exit interviews, and from the public outpouring the Calgary Flames players in their exit interviews with the media, that they were fully expecting change,” Dreger said. “And there are lower-level rumblings, and I’m not going to mention the players here, that there are some players who are willing to not come back, even under contract, if Darryl is still on the bench of the Calgary Flames. That feels a bit extreme, but that seems to be the direction in Calgary.”

 

PS - Kadri is the last guy I'd listen too. If that isn't a selfish player, I don't know what is.

[The_People1]

31 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

It was reported. By Dreger I believe.

Per Dreger:

“We can tell by the exit interviews, and from the public outpouring the Calgary Flames players in their exit interviews with the media, that they were fully expecting change,” Dreger said. “And there are lower-level rumblings, and I’m not going to mention the players here, that there are some players who are willing to not come back, even under contract, if Darryl is still on the bench of the Calgary Flames. That feels a bit extreme, but that seems to be the direction in Calgary.”

 

PS - Kadri is the last guy I'd listen too. If that isn't a selfish player, I don't know what is.

 

Wow, I hope Sutter comes back behind the bench then.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

PS - no one is going to boycott so let's be serious here. Stop inventing problem and situations that don't exist. They'll ask for trades and then it's up to the new GM to handle that. Think we'd be surprised at how many trade requests actually get asked for across the league. 

 

I would be surprised if the number of players who really hate Sutter and want out is more than five.  There are players clearly enjoying playing under him, like Toffoli, Lewis, Zadorov, etc.  The team blossomed under Sutter two seasons ago so I assume all of those players had a great time.  It's the new comers like Kadri, Huberdeau, etc who couldn't adjust and starts whining.  Trade them both.

[cross16]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

It was reported. By Dreger I believe.

Per Dreger:

“We can tell by the exit interviews, and from the public outpouring the Calgary Flames players in their exit interviews with the media, that they were fully expecting change,” Dreger said. “And there are lower-level rumblings, and I’m not going to mention the players here, that there are some players who are willing to not come back, even under contract, if Darryl is still on the bench of the Calgary Flames. That feels a bit extreme, but that seems to be the direction in Calgary.”

 

PS - Kadri is the last guy I'd listen too. If that isn't a selfish player, I don't know what is.

 

If your going to hang on what Dreger says sure I guess. I wouldn't but to each their own. 

 

But also should point out that requesting a trade doesn't mean boycott. I fully expect players will ask for trades, doesn't mean they'll get it. 

 

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would be surprised if the number of players who really hate Sutter and want out is more than five.  There are players clearly enjoying playing under him, like Toffoli, Lewis, Zadorov, etc.  The team blossomed under Sutter two seasons ago so I assume all of those players had a great time.  It's the new comers like Kadri, Huberdeau, etc who couldn't adjust and starts whining.  Trade them both.

 

I think that is a poor assumption

[tmac70]

10 hours ago, cross16 said:

What a bunch of BS. 

 

Maybe people just don't want to work in a toxic environment. Maybe people realize that working in said environment is not conducive to maximizing their skill and potential. so just because they are not prepard to sit there and take it from some just because they are the "coach" we have to belittle them. Completely and utter crap IMO. 

 

Nazim Kadri just got finished playing for Jared Bednar, one of the best coaches in the league IMO and coming off a cup win. Pretty good leader to follow. Personally if he is seeing issues with Sutter, based on who he just worked for, i'd be listening to Kadri. 

 

PS - no one is going to boycott so let's be serious here. Stop inventing problem and situations that don't exist. They'll ask for trades and then it's up to the new GM to handle that. Think we'd be surprised at how many trade requests actually get asked for across the league. 

Is not the same thing occurring with Sutter now? Strange how the media fans people on this forum have ZERO issue trashing him and that's acceptable. IMHO that is a bunch of BS. So it's fine if someone is a department head but not an employee. So one year was top of the world to the bottom of the manure pile the next, it's all on the coach? It's most likely been uncomfortable for Sutter and his family but that's okay now.  Did Bowness belittle his players after the Vegas series, by saying it was an embarrassment and disgrace on how the top players played?  Was Kadri great this year, hell no, the guy was useless for the last half of the year, the CHI game was the epitome of his attitude. If Kadri is your leader in that room, that's some low-level leadership.   So based on your summary Toffoli, Lewis, Lucic, and Coleman have no value in their leadership based on their accomplishments, or is it that because their coaches don't hold a candle to Bednar and Kadri's accomplishments? As I have said multiple times, I am not defending Sutter, but if what he did was so utterly inappropriate and disgusting was is it acceptable for it to happen to him

[conundrumed]

13 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

If your going to hang on what Dreger says sure I guess. I wouldn't but to each their own. 

 

But also should point out that requesting a trade doesn't mean boycott. I fully expect players will ask for trades, doesn't mean they'll get it. 

 

 

I think that is a poor assumption

"A trade or I'm not coming to camp, although we have a contract" doesn't sound like a trade request.

Kadri playing for Bednar means Kadri knows something is weak. I would put all of my money on MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, Makar and their great dmen being the difference between us and them, not Sutter vs Bednar.

Not saying this emanated from Kadri(although I'm alluding to it), but it sure didn't take a lot of viewings for me to feel pain for that signing. If only Monahan had have stayed healthy, we'd have had no use for the league's most overrated 2C telling us what's up.