Flames 22/23 Lineup

[cross16]

18 hours ago, tmac70 said:

So what in that statement is incorrect. He is a good player and has struggled. I will agree the gone for Satoshi Nakamoto comment was funny, and out of line with his injury we found out later. If no one wants the truth than why interview the man When asked a question he provides a truthful answer. If that hurts their feelings simple fix play better. Frankly Hubie has been a disappointment thus far as is Weegar, however I do belive they will elevate their games once they get use to the system.  I love Sutters press confernace because at least your going to be provided a truthfull answer. If comments like this have a huge impact mentally on anyone in that room, we are doomed.  Poor players fold under pressure, good players strive to be better and great players rise to the occassion. Sutter has been just as hard on Ruzicka and he has started to perform. We will soon see if Hubie rises to the occassion as everyone is hoping

 

 

A new team, new city, new system, new teammates and I see a player working hard to get it figured out and I just don't think all of that warrants negativity. I would understand it if Huberdeau wasn't working out there but I think he was (too hard quite frankly). I don't really like jabs at players in the media anyway but I just really don't like the consistent negativity towards a player in that situation. 

 

It also feels selective. Lindholm was playing worse to start the season but he was praised and Huberdeau blamed. LIkes to rip on the depth D but in fact it's really Hanifin and Anderson who are letting you down. 

 

It's been a much more negative Sutter than it was last year and that worries me. I hope i'm overreacting but Sutter has a shelf life and I just really hope he isn't resorting to this because he played all his chips last year. 

[The_People1]

Huberdeau-Backlund is working so let's keep that together for a few more games.

[conundrumed]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

Huberdeau-Backlund is working so let's keep that together for a few more games.

But can we swap Lewis out?

[B123]

I think we should try Coleman with Backs and Hubie

[The_People1]

On 11/16/2022 at 1:40 PM, conundrumed said:

But can we swap Lewis out?

 

On 11/16/2022 at 6:25 PM, B123 said:

I think we should try Coleman with Backs and Hubie

 

Ya Lewis can't keep up.  Huberdeau - Backlund - Dube might work best.

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

Ya Lewis can't keep up.  Huberdeau - Backlund - Dube might work best.

 

The problem I have with Lewis on that line is a pass to him results in nothing.  Backlund is a skilled passer as is Hubey, so what's the point if you have no finisher.  Considering the high number of HD chances against, the defensive side isn't working either.  

[JTech780]

The one thing that doesn’t work is having Huberdeau pass to RHS. His centers have been lefties. So I would like to see him with Kadri and Mangipane a bit more.

[tmac70]

Just looking at stats but when you look at GA for our goalies and plus/minus of the group in front it validates the eye test. Last season Anderson and Hanifin were huge in the plus catagory and this season in second with the worst plus minus on hte team. 

Minus leaders

1) Kadri -7

2) Anderson/Hanifin/ Mags -6

3) Lucic -5

4) Dube -3 

 

Goaltending

Markstrom .887or 3 goals a game 

Vldar .881 or 3.33 goals a game 

 

Whats the point of this? Kadri a new guy is -7 and Weegar, Huberdeau are either 0 or +2, 

Kadris line is the worst line on the club paired with Anderson and Hanifin on D is a disaster waiting to happen. 

Lucis -5 Kadri -7 Mags -6

Anderson-6 and Hanfin -6 

 

Add that mess along with Satoshi Nakamototy goal tending and  this is what we get. 

[conundrumed]

What even is this team? Can we call this stupid line setup out yet? There's only one cook in the kitchen. You'd think there's 10.

Forget goaltending, I can just look at the lines and, "yup, we're gonna lose".

Waaaay overthinking it.

[travel_dude]

57 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

What even is this team? Can we call this stupid line setup out yet? There's only one cook in the kitchen. You'd think there's 10.

Forget goaltending, I can just look at the lines and, "yup, we're gonna lose".

Waaaay overthinking it.

 

Bottom 6 in the top 6?

Recipe for disaster.

Lucic anywhere near your top C's?

(shakes head)

 

I don't really have a problem with Ruzie playing in the top 6, but he's not yet a top line player.

First 6 games, 2nd line crushing it chances-wise, but top line with kinks.

4th line scoring more than expected.

Next bunch of games go to a weird setup which didn't work.

Next bunch have 4th line grinders on key lines with key players.

 

Seems pretty simple.

Top 9 player types play in top 9.

4th line player play less minutes on the freakin' 4th line.

Give Hubey 17+ minutes per game.

Try a few combos of players, but get the 4th line players outa there.

[Heartbreaker]

12 hours ago, The_People1 said:

Ya Lewis can't keep up.  Huberdeau - Backlund - Dube might work best.

 

Even if that's true about Lewis, I don't see Dube as the solution. He's got no finish, as evidenced by his four points in 17 games (1 goal). Everyone seems to think he's going to break out, but think that he is what he is. What you see is what you get.

 

Love.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

Even if that's true about Lewis, I don't see Dube as the solution. He's got no finish, as evidenced by his four points in 17 games (1 goal). Everyone seems to think he's going to break out, but think that he is what he is. What you see is what you get.

 

Love.

 

It's funny that he looked better with Bread and Kadri, but not really scoring.

I would tend to keep Ruzie in the top 6, since he is fitting in.

I would be more comfortable with Coleman-Backlund-Dube and figure out the rest of the lines.

[taz89]

Is it possible that the players are just not onboard anymore with Sutter's system?  IDK, just seems weird to fall apart like this when you had such a great season last year.  Yeah i know, totally different team with these new players. I get it, but maybe these new players are just not on board.  I guess time will tell, hopefully we don't start another losing streak here.

[travel_dude]

31 minutes ago, taz89 said:

Is it possible that the players are just not onboard anymore with Sutter's system?  IDK, just seems weird to fall apart like this when you had such a great season last year.  Yeah i know, totally different team with these new players. I get it, but maybe these new players are just not on board.  I guess time will tell, hopefully we don't start another losing streak here.

 

Hate to agree with Eric Francis, but we lost our best zone entry player - Gaudreau.

You see that struggle with the PP.

Once we get in the zone with possession, we tend to dominate.

I think it was the end of the 1st where they showed 7 minutes in the O-zone and 4 minutes in the D zone.

 

If anyone is PO'd, I would look to Dube.

He's been criticized since Sutter got here.

I don't know what he needs to do to win favor, but he doesn't seem to be there.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

Even if that's true about Lewis, I don't see Dube as the solution. He's got no finish, as evidenced by his four points in 17 games (1 goal). Everyone seems to think he's going to break out, but think that he is what he is. What you see is what you get.

 

Love.

 

I agree, Dube can't finish.  Been saying it for years.

 

But Dube has higher offensive IQ and better speed to keep up with Huberdeau-Backlund.  Dube just has to get open, get a pass, and then pass it back.  Lewis is a block on the ice in the offensive zone.

 

I get Sutter's thinking.  A good line needs:

 

1 shooter

1 passer

1 guy to win board battles

 

Lewis is suppose to play the 3rd role but can't keep up.  He's also older and stamina is questionable.  Choices on RW are limited.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, taz89 said:

Is it possible that the players are just not onboard anymore with Sutter's system?  IDK, just seems weird to fall apart like this when you had such a great season last year.  Yeah i know, totally different team with these new players. I get it, but maybe these new players are just not on board.  I guess time will tell, hopefully we don't start another losing streak here.

 

Nah that's far from the case.  The system is good.  The system is not why Markstrom let's in beachballs from the corner of the Blueline.  The system is not the reason for missed D assignments.  Mange is not sniping this year.  Huberdeau not meshing well with anyone yet.  The players have to make the plays.  It's not about the system.

[travel_dude]

31 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I agree, Dube can't finish.  Been saying it for years.

 

But Dube has higher offensive IQ and better speed to keep up with Huberdeau-Backlund.  Dube just has to get open, get a pass, and then pass it back.  Lewis is a block on the ice in the offensive zone.

 

I get Sutter's thinking.  A good line needs:

 

1 shooter

1 passer

1 guy to win board battles

 

Lewis is suppose to play the 3rd role but can't keep up.  He's also older and stamina is questionable.  Choices on RW are limited.

 

 

Situation - Sutter seems to be of the opinion that Dube isn't cutting it.

We can't seem to find the right fit with the top 6 players and are using Hubey on a 3rd line.

BT is said to be looking for a top 6 (or top 9 at least) winger.

 

So, the answer is relatively simple.

Trade Dube for a top 6 player.

It's not like Dube is a finisher, and I believe Backlund is more passer than shooter.

That would give the opportunity to balance the lines a bit:

 

Mangiapane-Lindholm-Toffoli

Huberdeau-Kadri-RW

Ruzie-Backlund-Coleman

 

Maybe the top line doesn't work, so swap Mange and Ruzie.

But that 2nd line craves a good winger to round it out.

3rd line is either what we saw of Mange's most time last season or Ruzie getting a bump.

And improving the defensive side of his game.  He adds a bigger body to the line too.

 

[Thebrewcrew]

Dube is shooting 4% right now. He scored 18 goals last year. The goals are going to come.

[Horsman1]

On 10/12/2022 at 11:03 AM, JTech780 said:

Man Treliving did a lot of really good work this offseason, so I hate to nitpick, but Lewis starting the season on the 3rd line speaks to a lack of depth.

 

To be fair I think he was hoping for a young guy or Milano to step up and take the job, but nobody did.

 

We can talk about Sutter trusting vets and not putting young players in positions to succeed, but earning the time is part of how Sutter gets this team to play to a certain identity. That identity is what leads him to be a successful coach and it is what was lacking from this team for a lot of years. So maybe we give up some skill at the bottom of the lineup to have more work ethic, but that all goes with the identity of the team.

 

Hopefully Treliving can find a top 9 winger soon.

is he even trying. not sure tre knows how to build a team

 

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Dube is shooting 4% right now. He scored 18 goals last year. The goals are going to come.

 

He scored 8 of those in the last 9 games of the year.

Not to be that critical, but he has 25 shots in 16 games.

So one of two problems; not enough shots per game or not enough quality to score on more of them.

Not sure which I believe at this point.

 

The trade suggestion is more to the fact that we aren't scoring enough.

Not enough snipers.

[robrob74]

19 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

He scored 8 of those in the last 9 games of the year.

Not to be that critical, but he has 25 shots in 16 games.

So one of two problems; not enough shots per game or not enough quality to score on more of them.

Not sure which I believe at this point.

 

The trade suggestion is more to the fact that we aren't scoring enough.

Not enough snipers.

 

in the games I've seen, team enters the zone, shoot from the top of the faceoff circle, play dies and a whistle happens. There's no movement or crisscrossing and creating havoc. Either the other team is defending well or there's no substance to the players or no substance to the system. Even last year and the years before, we'd shoot from the perimeter, plays would die and go the other way, defend and transition back and do the same. We'd have possession, have great possession numbers, great shot volume numbers, and for me and my eye test, low quality chances.
 

And it seems to be the same, trying for perfect shots from bad angles and saveable. I'm still frustrated with the lack of 2nd and 3rd chance opportunities. I don't think that's the system as much as the players not willing to go into those areas. Could be system?
 

Sutter wants shots, and to me, shots for shots doesn't cut it. We need shots that generate more scoring chances.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

in the games I've seen, team enters the zone, shoot from the top of the faceoff circle, play dies and a whistle happens. There's no movement or crisscrossing and creating havoc. Either the other team is defending well or there's no substance to the players or no substance to the system. Even last year and the years before, we'd shoot from the perimeter, plays would die and go the other way, defend and transition back and do the same. We'd have possession, have great possession numbers, great shot volume numbers, and for me and my eye test, low quality chances.
 

And it seems to be the same, trying for perfect shots from bad angles and saveable. I'm still frustrated with the lack of 2nd and 3rd chance opportunities. I don't think that's the system as much as the players not willing to go into those areas. Could be system?
 

Sutter wants shots, and to me, shots for shots doesn't cut it. We need shots that generate more scoring chances.

 

I'm not about to look at a previous team and compare.

Sutter may want possession and shot volume, but he doesn't want perimeter shots.

His biggest complaint has been "unwilling to go to hard areas".

While he said that 40 shots should win, he also talked about needing to finish.

Call it SH% or quality or just getting greasy goals when others aren't going in.

Sutter (rightly) pointed out that some guys just won't go to the hard areas.

I would say that few go directly to the net with the puck.

Few get in there to fight for rebounds.

I won't name them, but you can probably figure it out.

Last year it was Johnny.

 

Anyway, we should be seeing a tweaked lineup tonight, more balanced:

Ruzie-Lindy-Toffee

Mange-Kadri-Dube

Hiberdeau-Nacklund-Coleman

Lucic-Lewis-Ritchie

 

Sutter eems to be seeing Hubey's game coming around, so this may just be temporary.

He might not like ubey with Kadri, and I believe that playing with Lindy limits his options.

Lets see if these lines stick for a game.

[redfire11]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Ruzie-Lindy-Toffee

Mange-Kadri-Dube

Hiberdeau-Nacklund-Coleman

Lucic-Lewis-Ritchie

Finally

[cross16]

On 11/18/2022 at 1:33 PM, taz89 said:

Is it possible that the players are just not onboard anymore with Sutter's system?  IDK, just seems weird to fall apart like this when you had such a great season last year.  Yeah i know, totally different team with these new players. I get it, but maybe these new players are just not on board.  I guess time will tell, hopefully we don't start another losing streak here.

 

There are no signs of that to me. They are playing to the system on pretty much a nightly basis. The defensive struggles really come to down to a combination of goaltending (probably the biggest honestly) and individual breakdowns. The key different for me so far in terms of the 5 on 5 play this year versus last year is they are generating less in terms of scoring chances and high danger chances. The volume is there but the quality isn't but that has a lot to do with the talent drain they experienced and a few guys, namely Mang, off to really slow starts. 

 

the only thing I would wonder about in terms of coaching is how the messaging is being delivered. I am seeing a team that is a bit too afraid to make mistakes, especially in key points of a game. On Tkachuks' tying goal the d was almost at the faceoff dot on the zone entry and that kind of stuff didn't happen last year, at least not very often. This year's team didn't has not yet captured the swagger that last year's team had.

 

Not necessarily the fault of the coaching staff, but just given how negative Sutter seems in the media this year vs last it makes me wonder how the message is being delivered. Think one thing to remember is last year's team wasn't supposed to be very good, this year's is. 

 

 

 

[robrob74]

I don't want to be too negative this year. I've had issues with the scoring depth the past few years. I get the whole Mange scored this and Dube scored that. They can be shut down though if and when other teams care to play good D. 
 

the last few years a lot of Flames players don't like going to the dirty areas. It seems to be a

trend that is continuing. How do they get to the scoring chances that generate more chances than one?