Flames 22/23 Lineup

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, JTech780 said:

My problem becomes who comes out of the top 9 to bring a guy up from the AHL? For me the issue isn’t so much who is in the top 9 it’s more how do we get more out of the talent that is already there. There is plenty of talent in that top 9. I could see an argument for adding a legit top 6 RW, but I am not sure that Phillips is that guy right now, he could be for sure. 
 

I think that Treliving needs to keep looking for upgrades via trades. Find another shooter.

 

If you are gonna make a trade, trade from surplus.

And trade when the season is still young.

Jarnkrok/Carperter were bad trades and meant burying Ruzicka last season.

 

If we are gonna make a trade for a RW, then we need to send out a winger that isn't fitting in.

Dube is about the only player in the top 9 that comes to mind.

He has value.  He is underperforming for us.  It "seems" that him and Mangiapane are in the same role.

Neither is a playmaker.  Neither is a power forward.  Kadri played best with a power forward.

 

If you go the route of bringing up an AHL player, then Lucic should be victim #1 and Lewis #2.

If that means the AHL player bumps down say Dube, then you have a reasonable 4th line.

Dube-Lewis-Ritchie

Or if you keep Lucic in, then it's Lucic-Dube-Ritchie.

The goal should be improve the overall team.

Sitting one of the 4th line guys helps.

[cross16]

I would understand and agree with the idea of it's more about getting players going than adding. We can talk additions all we want but if guys like Kadri, Mang, Huberdeau etc don't play like they should it wont' matter. 

 

However, personally think it's irresponsible planning to focus so much on external adds when you've got 3 of the top scorers in the AHL. That 100% should be tried first, especially considering we are talking about 2 former first round picks here. 

 

I think there is always a "don't know until you try" element to development because they are human beings after all. Sure Phillips is short and might not be able to handle the physical game but why not let him try and maybe he proves you wrong? Is Pelletier a great shooter no but what if he can make others better due to his intelligence/work ethic? Can Zary improve you defensively and free up other lines?

 

This is where Sutter frustrates me. He labels and pigeon holes players too much IMO. A perfect opportunity doesn't often presents itself and other organizations aren't waiting for perfect opportunities to give their younger players a chance. 

 

[robrob74]

47 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

My problem becomes who comes out of the top 9 to bring a guy up from the AHL? For me the issue isn’t so much who is in the top 9 it’s more how do we get more out of the talent that is already there. There is plenty of talent in that top 9. I could see an argument for adding a legit top 6 RW, but I am not sure that Phillips is that guy right now, he could be for sure. 
 

I think that Treliving needs to keep looking for upgrades via trades. Find another shooter.

 

i don't think a shooter is the problem. I think the team has a lot of shooters and just not guys getting them the puck in shooter areas. Something about the flow of the game is off. I don't think it has to do with shooting. I think it is easy to say they aren't scoring as a group. 
 

Mangiapane is a shooter

Toffoli is a shooter

Lindholm is a shooter (2-way)

Ruzicka is a shooter

is Dube a shooter? 
Kadri is probably a shooter?
 

Huberdeau is a playmaker

Backlund shooter/playmaker

 

Coleman a straight edge worker

Lewis is a worker.

Lucic is a worker.

Rooney is a worker. 
 

we have two, maybe three playmakers. The team needs to get shots in traffic and get to scoring areas and not just shoot to shoot. I think shooting with a purpose is different. This is why I'm getting frustrated with the team and the system. 

 

[robrob74]

8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I would understand and agree with the idea of it's more about getting players going than adding. We can talk additions all we want but if guys like Kadri, Mang, Huberdeau etc don't play like they should it wont' matter. 

 

However, personally think it's irresponsible planning to focus so much on external adds when you've got 3 of the top scorers in the AHL. That 100% should be tried first, especially considering we are talking about 2 former first round picks here. 

 

I think there is always a "don't know until you try" element to development because they are human beings after all. Sure Phillips is short and might not be able to handle the physical game but why not let him try and maybe he proves you wrong? Is Pelletier a great shooter now but what if he can make others better due to his intelligence/work ethic? Can Zary improve you defensively and free up other lines?

 

This is where Sutter frustrates me. He labels and pigeon holes players too much IMO. A perfect opportunity doesn't often presents itself and other organizations aren't waiting for perfect opportunities to give their younger players a chance. 

 

 

At the deadline you said the team needed to add another playmaker. I don't know if adding another shooter will help. I get the idea is to add offence, but I think getting to your point, if those guys aren't producing at their expected levels then it could be a moot point.... I think it's vital to get another playmaker and hopefully speed to add pace to the game. I think a lot of the time the team looks a bit off and disorganized. 
 

 

[JTech780]

7 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I would understand and agree with the idea of it's more about getting players going than adding. We can talk additions all we want but if guys like Kadri, Mang, Huberdeau etc don't play like they should it wont' matter. 

 

However, personally think it's irresponsible planning to focus so much on external adds when you've got 3 of the top scorers in the AHL. That 100% should be tried first, especially considering we are talking about 2 former first round picks here. 

 

Oh I think don't get me wrong I am absolutely fine with bringing up a player from the AHL, and maybe guys like Dube and Mangiapane need that motivation and threat to their ice time. I just think it is a big ask for a rookie to come up and fix the offence on the NHL team, I know that's not what you are saying, but that seems to be the pressure that would be put on whoever they call up by the market.

 

Maybe having Pelletier come up and having Dube sit for a few games would be good for both players. I also think putting Mangiapane with Backlund and Coleman might be the best way to get him back on track.

[cross16]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

At the deadline you said the team needed to add another playmaker. I don't know if adding another shooter will help. I get the idea is to add offence, but I think getting to your point, if those guys aren't producing at their expected levels then it could be a moot point.... I think it's vital to get another playmaker and hopefully speed to add pace to the game. I think a lot of the time the team looks a bit off and disorganized. 
 

 

 

I don't see this the same way as you do and I don't think the lack of a playmaker is the problem. They added Kadri, who is a very good playmaker so now they have a high end one for both lines in their top 6. On top of the fact that Mangiapane is a dual threat as is Backs. 

 

They are generated high volumes and a decent amount of quality but they've just don't bury them. They are one of the worse shooting teams in the NHL this season. 

 

I think the lack of pace in their game is not due to a lack of playmakers it's due to a lack of cohesion and too many turnovers. 

[JTech780]

16 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

i don't think a shooter is the problem. I think the team has a lot of shooters and just not guys getting them the puck in shooter areas. Something about the flow of the game is off. I don't think it has to do with shooting. I think it is easy to say they aren't scoring as a group. 
 

Mangiapane is a shooter

Toffoli is a shooter

Lindholm is a shooter (2-way)

Ruzicka is a shooter

is Dube a shooter? 
Kadri is probably a shooter?
 

Huberdeau is a playmaker

Backlund shooter/playmaker

 

Coleman a straight edge worker

Lewis is a worker.

Lucic is a worker.

Rooney is a worker. 
 

we have two, maybe three playmakers. The team needs to get shots in traffic and get to scoring areas and not just shoot to shoot. I think shooting with a purpose is different. This is why I'm getting frustrated with the team and the system. 

 

 

I think they are getting plenty of chances and plenty of shots, they just don't have enough guys who are going to beat you clean with a shot. I mean the other side might be to find an element we lost with Tkachuk which is to get someone who can do a lot of dirty work in front of the net. In Sutter's system you need players willing to go hard to the net and bang in rebounds, I just don't think there is enough of that in the top 9.

 

I think if Dube wants to be successful he should be looking at Coleman as the type of player he needs to be everyday. 

[travel_dude]

22 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I would understand and agree with the idea of it's more about getting players going than adding. We can talk additions all we want but if guys like Kadri, Mang, Huberdeau etc don't play like they should it wont' matter. 

 

However, personally think it's irresponsible planning to focus so much on external adds when you've got 3 of the top scorers in the AHL. That 100% should be tried first, especially considering we are talking about 2 former first round picks here. 

 

I think there is always a "don't know until you try" element to development because they are human beings after all. Sure Phillips is short and might not be able to handle the physical game but why not let him try and maybe he proves you wrong? Is Pelletier a great shooter no but what if he can make others better due to his intelligence/work ethic? Can Zary improve you defensively and free up other lines?

 

This is where Sutter frustrates me. He labels and pigeon holes players too much IMO. A perfect opportunity doesn't often presents itself and other organizations aren't waiting for perfect opportunities to give their younger players a chance. 

 

 

Yes, I think the entire fanbase is a little miffed about lack of graduating forwards from 2018 onward.

Every team has prospects, and we are loathe to try them.

If the team was stacked, then I would understand.

But we have a 4th line that gets owned in games.

I think at one point, the 4th line was 10 chances against and 1 for.

On the road that can happen, but should be cause for concern that you are playing them too much.

Would rather a tired Backlund than a slightly winded Lucic.

 

This isn't the same as Baertschi getting healthy scratched for lacklustre effort.

This is about making use of the depth you drafted.

If they can cut it, you have the next wave.

If they can't at least you see what you lack.

Phillips may not work, but what a story if he did.

Two other first rounders playing pretty high level not being used.

 

 

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, JTech780 said:

 

I think they are getting plenty of chances and plenty of shots, they just don't have enough guys who are going to beat you clean with a shot. I mean the other side might be to find an element we lost with Tkachuk which is to get someone who can do a lot of dirty work in front of the net. In Sutter's system you need players willing to go hard to the net and bang in rebounds, I just don't think there is enough of that in the top 9.

 

I think if Dube wants to be successful he should be looking at Coleman as the type of player he needs to be everyday. 

 

and I guess we are missing that guy that can bang in rebounds that can fight to the front of the net. 
 

I know in beer league, it's different, but if I have a 2-on-1 and no real shot, I'll shoot for the opposite pad ice level to get the rebound to the other guy. I just don't see simple stuff like that. I get goalies are better in the NHL but some teams do that to get more chances. 

[The_People1]

22 hours ago, Heartbreaker said:

I got really excited about that tweet, and tried to verify it, and I found this - which is pretty interesting, too.

 

 

Love.

 

Let's sign Coronato later this year and end this drought.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Oh I think don't get me wrong I am absolutely fine with bringing up a player from the AHL, and maybe guys like Dube and Mangiapane need that motivation and threat to their ice time. I just think it is a big ask for a rookie to come up and fix the offence on the NHL team, I know that's not what you are saying, but that seems to be the pressure that would be put on whoever they call up by the market.

 

Maybe having Pelletier come up and having Dube sit for a few games would be good for both players. I also think putting Mangiapane with Backlund and Coleman might be the best way to get him back on track.

 

None of these guys are pro rookies, just NHL rookies.  At some point every player is one.  Ruzicka is a relative rookie on this team and is almost the top goal scorer.  He has off nights.  And he's less consistent a player than Phillips is and Pelletier has become.  Sutter complains about getting to the dirty areas, but every team needs to snipe goals as well. 

 

Anyway, not really disagreeing with you, just suggesting that big guys aren't the only ones to score big goals.  A guy leading the AHL in goals has to be doing something right.  

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Let's sign Coronato later this year and end this drought.

 

He's a dark horse for the Hobie right now.  Has played so few games compared to the league.

The good thing is the NCAA not bad for developing players.

If it's this season, fine.

Another year wouldn't kill it.

But i get your point.

 

The thing is, if you are trying to convince a player to sign away their education, you need to show that you play signed players.  Not just send them to the AHL.

[cross16]

58 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Yes, I think the entire fanbase is a little miffed about lack of graduating forwards from 2018 onward.

Every team has prospects, and we are loathe to try them.

If the team was stacked, then I would understand.

But we have a 4th line that gets owned in games.

I think at one point, the 4th line was 10 chances against and 1 for.

On the road that can happen, but should be cause for concern that you are playing them too much.

Would rather a tired Backlund than a slightly winded Lucic.

 

This isn't the same as Baertschi getting healthy scratched for lacklustre effort.

This is about making use of the depth you drafted.

If they can cut it, you have the next wave.

If they can't at least you see what you lack.

Phillips may not work, but what a story if he did.

Two other first rounders playing pretty high level not being used.

 

 

 

I'm not really miffed about that. No 1st, 2nd or 3rd rounder in 2018 and no 2nd rounder in 2019 will do that to you. 2020 is too early to judge IMO especially when you consider COVID and the fact that the Flames were very good (and healthy) last year. Not many good teams out there have players on their roster from those draft years either so it's very much a flawed point IMO. 

 

The frustration for me lies in the fact that the offence isn't clicking right now, you've clearly got a depth issue at forward and 3 of the top scorers are just sitting there in the AHL. Draft position/year isn't really relevant to me. 

 

 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

and I guess we are missing that guy that can bang in rebounds that can fight to the front of the net. 
 

I know in beer league, it's different, but if I have a 2-on-1 and no real shot, I'll shoot for the opposite pad ice level to get the rebound to the other guy. I just don't see simple stuff like that. I get goalies are better in the NHL but some teams do that to get more chances. 

 

 

I don't disagree with your theory I just think it's more of an attitude /execution thing and not so much a lacking skillset. You can add as many playmakers as you want but ultimately someone's got to go to the net. Someone has to win that net battle and someone's got to screen/tip. Those are all things this team should be better at but I think the mindset just isn't there yet. 

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I'm not really miffed about that. No 1st, 2nd or 3rd rounder in 2018 and no 2nd rounder in 2019 will do that to you. 2020 is too early to judge IMO especially when you consider COVID and the fact that the Flames were very good (and healthy) last year. Not many good teams out there have players on their roster from those draft years either so it's very much a flawed point IMO. 

 

The frustration for me lies in the fact that the offence isn't clicking right now, you've clearly got a depth issue at forward and 3 of the top scorers are just sitting there in the AHL. Draft position/year isn't really relevant to me. 

 

 

 

Regardless of what round they were drafted, what I have been seeing on twitter and opinion pieces is a lot of grumbling about players not being tried at all.  Whether they are high picks or not, many teams have played players from 2019 and 2020 draft years.  Maybe the term graduating is the wrong one to use.  How about "trying out" a player? 

 

Last year was a year where we didn't have many injuries, but we still managed to look outside for players.  Two players at TDL and we send out 3 picks.    

[sak22]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Regardless of what round they were drafted, what I have been seeing on twitter and opinion pieces is a lot of grumbling about players not being tried at all.  Whether they are high picks or not, many teams have played players from 2019 and 2020 draft years.  Maybe the term graduating is the wrong one to use.  How about "trying out" a player? 

 

Last year was a year where we didn't have many injuries, but we still managed to look outside for players.  Two players at TDL and we send out 3 picks.    

This is where the fanbase becomes impossible to please.  Call up Zary to replace Lewis and when he produces like a typical 4th liner complain that he shouldn't be developed as a 4th liner, went down that road with Backlund, Bennett, Jankowski.  Now in hindsight we are complaining that we gave up picks at the TDL, whereas if we stood pat or tried prospects that would've been criticized at the time.  I don't know, I'm a big supporter of calling up a kid, but still want to see them given a legit shot to get decent minutes as opposed to the Dylan Holloway treatment up north.

[robrob74]

27 minutes ago, sak22 said:

This is where the fanbase becomes impossible to please.  Call up Zary to replace Lewis and when he produces like a typical 4th liner complain that he shouldn't be developed as a 4th liner, went down that road with Backlund, Bennett, Jankowski.  Now in hindsight we are complaining that we gave up picks at the TDL, whereas if we stood pat or tried prospects that would've been criticized at the time.  I don't know, I'm a big supporter of calling up a kid, but still want to see them given a legit shot to get decent minutes as opposed to the Dylan Holloway treatment up north.

 

I agree. But it would be good to get a point where you can use call ups instead of trades at the deadline. 

[redfire11]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

This is where Sutter frustrates me. He labels and pigeon holes players too much IMO. A perfect opportunity doesn't often presents itself and other organizations aren't waiting for perfect opportunities to give their younger players a chance. 

Totally agree with this. You take chances when things are not going good. Sutter maybe needs to look around the league and see that "old school" id being replaced.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

This is where the fanbase becomes impossible to please.  Call up Zary to replace Lewis and when he produces like a typical 4th liner complain that he shouldn't be developed as a 4th liner, went down that road with Backlund, Bennett, Jankowski.  Now in hindsight we are complaining that we gave up picks at the TDL, whereas if we stood pat or tried prospects that would've been criticized at the time.  I don't know, I'm a big supporter of calling up a kid, but still want to see them given a legit shot to get decent minutes as opposed to the Dylan Holloway treatment up north.

 

I agree in theory but I think there is opportunity for young players to come here and play. They are looking for more than just 4-5 mins a game worth of help I think. 

[Thebrewcrew]

in the NFL, Washington is playing a QB named Taylor Heinicke. He's not a particularly talented player, but his team loves him. Since he began starting for them, the rest of the team has played significantly better. It's not because of his talent, he just brings an infectious energy.

 

Now to relate it to the Flames, I think that's what you'd be hoping for if they went with a recall. Something to get this team excited, because it doesn't look like a team that's having much fun. If the Flames were to recall a Zary or Pelletier and the rookie gets the "solo lap" in warmups, it could give the team some much needed energy. I think that's more what you'd be looking for with a recall, more-so than that kid to come up and produce big time. Give the team some energy and for the players that aren't producing, it's a wake-up call.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

This is where the fanbase becomes impossible to please.  Call up Zary to replace Lewis and when he produces like a typical 4th liner complain that he shouldn't be developed as a 4th liner, went down that road with Backlund, Bennett, Jankowski.  Now in hindsight we are complaining that we gave up picks at the TDL, whereas if we stood pat or tried prospects that would've been criticized at the time.  I don't know, I'm a big supporter of calling up a kid, but still want to see them given a legit shot to get decent minutes as opposed to the Dylan Holloway treatment up north.

 

Somewhere in the middle really.

What frustrated me about Carpenter was there wasn't anything screaming playoff player.

Not a Cogliano or such.

The net result of that trade was we had to send down Ruzie in his last waiver exempt season.

Sutter had worked him to the point of "getting it".

Was supposed to start that game following TDL.

 

What gets me is we use Lewis on a 2nd or 3rd line and that's not okay.

I would prefer not to use a Zary or whatever on the 4th line unless it's a line of those types of players.

As it is we have to shelter Lucic at times.

A 4th line of top 6 AHL player?

Maybe they get a little crushed, but they are not there to play Lucic style.

I get it that's not our identity.

Grind down a shift as opposed to trying top score.

 

I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong.

But we are only ever looking at one answer.

Who knopws what the alternative looks like or how they do.

[travel_dude]

Just now, Thebrewcrew said:

in the NFL, Washington is playing a QB named Taylor Heinicke. He's not a particularly talented player, but his team loves him. Since he began starting for them, the rest of the team has played significantly better. It's not because of his talent, he just brings an infectious energy.

 

Now to relate it to the Flames, I think that's what you'd be hoping for if they went with a recall. Something to get this team excited, because it doesn't look like a team that's having much fun. If the Flames were to recall a Zary or Pelletier and the rookie gets the "solo lap" in warmups, it could give the team some much needed energy. I think that's more what you'd be looking for with a recall, more-so than that kid to come up and produce big time. Give the team some energy and for the players that aren't producing, it's a wake-up call.

 

Give a lifetime AHL player his first NHL goal and watch what happens.

Much like the NFL player, they want more.

But anyway, this isn't going anywhere unless Sutter or BT reads the forum.

Or we fall so far back, it doesn't matter.

[sak22]

17 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

in the NFL, Washington is playing a QB named Taylor Heinicke. He's not a particularly talented player, but his team loves him. Since he began starting for them, the rest of the team has played significantly better. It's not because of his talent, he just brings an infectious energy.

 

Now to relate it to the Flames, I think that's what you'd be hoping for if they went with a recall. Something to get this team excited, because it doesn't look like a team that's having much fun. If the Flames were to recall a Zary or Pelletier and the rookie gets the "solo lap" in warmups, it could give the team some much needed energy. I think that's more what you'd be looking for with a recall, more-so than that kid to come up and produce big time. Give the team some energy and for the players that aren't producing, it's a wake-up call.

That is also a situation of addition by subtraction, Carson Wentz was truly awful and from many accounts not an overly likeable guy in the rooms he was in.  Do give credit though as that team has only been getting negative attention for the mess that is their owner. 

[Thebrewcrew]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

That is also a situation of addition by subtraction, Carson Wentz was truly awful and from many accounts not an overly likeable guy in the rooms he was in.  Do give credit though as that team has only been getting negative attention for the mess that is their owner. 

Commanders are such a joke. See the Sean Taylor "statue"? Their on-field performance has been strange, because Heinicke is playing at a similar level to Zach Wilson. That's the benefit of winning and not being the 2nd overall pick in NY, I suppose. 

[The_People1]

17 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

He's a dark horse for the Hobie right now.  Has played so few games compared to the league.

The good thing is the NCAA not bad for developing players.

If it's this season, fine.

Another year wouldn't kill it.

But i get your point.

 

The thing is, if you are trying to convince a player to sign away their education, you need to show that you play signed players.  Not just send them to the AHL.

 

Yes sign him. Play him.  Give him the 10 games to burn one year to entice him to commit to the Flames. He is what we need come April.  A RHS RW with offense.