General NHL Stuff

[The_People1]

47 minutes ago, sak22 said:

 

Steep price for a rental when you are on the outside looking in.  Islanders will need to sign him to make it a good trade.

 

It's the standard going price.  1st round pick + NHL player + prospect.

 

Beauvillier is in that mold of a Mangiapane/Dube except not as good.  2nd/3rd liner material here.

 

Raty was good in under-18 but he's all wheels and nothing else.  Not sure if he's improved since.  I could see Raty not being a full time NHLer.

 

That first round pick in this year's draft is the prize.  Supposed to be a deep draft so VAN will need to use this pick to find their next Horvat.

[The_People1]

53 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

No doubt they will sign him.

I like Raty and Beauvillier.

Other than the fact that VAN wasn't going to be able to sign him, this is not a great trade.

Not sure what VAN is even doing.

Did they want a tear down or re-tool.

This has bits of both.

 

This is the trade they should've made last season with JT Miller.  Especially since Miller is said to have issues with coaches and divide locker rooms.  They would be able to keep Horvat this year.  Anyways, the Canucks are said to be entertaining offers for all players except Pettersson.  So even Hughes and Demko could possibly be on the move if teams are willing to pay the price.

[cross16]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

This is the trade they should've made last season with JT Miller.  Especially since Miller is said to have issues with coaches and divide locker rooms.  They would be able to keep Horvat this year.  Anyways, the Canucks are said to be entertaining offers for all players except Pettersson.  So even Hughes and Demko could possibly be on the move if teams are willing to pay the price.

 

The thought process here is so crazy. Sign a 29 year old player, despite the fact your trade offers are likely better than what you got today, to a 7 year deal and in the end you deal your 27 year old captain who is actually the better player? And you are telling your fans you don't want to rebuild?

 

Think the Canucks have replaced the Oilers are the worst run franchise in NHL. Crazy amount of incompetency going on there right now. 

[cross16]

It is a decent return, but not great. It really hinges on Raty IMO who I don't really like as a prospect. He's got some skill, when he wants to use it, but I don't like his IQ and I find him too much of a perimeter player. If he can fix that then the Canucks likely like this deal and could love it if they hit on the pick. 

 

I use to like Beaullivier but his game has gone south. Barely top 9 rigth now and expensive to boot. Canucks should get to work on hoping he can get some chemistry with Miller or Pettersen and then flip him. 

 

Unprotected pick in 2024 and at the rate the Islanders are going I wouldn't be surprised if that picks is top 10. 

[conundrumed]

It's a pretty anti-climactic trade. The only real drama is what the pick will be. 25% retained so Horvat = Beauvillier money.

A rental for a non-playoff team makes no sense, so I wonder if Lou was done with the players he packaged.

It's a nice get for NYI if Horvat signs with them at maybe $8-8.5.

The pick is an outlier. Definitely a wait and see trade for now.

I think everyone's confused by it. Aka the 2 oldest guys in the league made a trade.lol

I'm sure Rutherford saw where other offers started.

I think the most interesting thing for me right now is where does Horvat's market value go from here.

If I'm his agent I'm talking him to FA or NYI's have 8 x $9.

Horvat's a great player outside of the contract year escapades.

*Conspiracy theory: In contract years teammates do their damnedest to inflate your stats. A back-rubbing consortium.

[sak22]

With the Islanders the question is at what point do they take the keys away from the old man, now likely going on year 4 in a row without a 1st round pick, although 2 of the previous were rentals they did manage to sign them but neither are really significant pieces now, and add in Romanov who is a pretty meh player himself.  Even if they keep Horvat does he he move any needles for that team in that division and conference, add in that Bo Horvat is not a player I want to be negotiating with this year.  Even when the Islanders had their runs to the conference finals I never felt they were close as a team.

[CheersMan]

I think this deal looks okay for NYI. It cost them a 1^st plus a career 18 goal scorer making $4.2M, but they gain Horvat, a career 27 goal leader. Lou has $16.3M in cap space next year to sign Horvat, a backup GT and a depth dman, no problem. The year after more money comes off the books for Lou. The NYI are presently in the same spot in the Eastern Conference as CGY is in the Western Conference, just on the outside looking in. Not a bad add for a final push this season and ideally the next 7-8 years. Lou looks to be in pretty good shape. I've always thought TOR made the wrong choice in keeping the young bean-counter over Lou. I also see why VAN said goodbye, they are cash strapped for a few years yet and they have been hanging onto a lot of dead money year after year. Luongo just came off the books this year and he’s been gone since 2014. Thank you Mike Gillis.

[conundrumed]

10 hours ago, CheersMan said:

I think this deal looks okay for NYI. It cost them a 1^st plus a career 18 goal scorer making $4.2M, but they gain Horvat, a career 27 goal leader. Lou has $16.3M in cap space next year to sign Horvat, a backup GT and a depth dman, no problem. The year after more money comes off the books for Lou. The NYI are presently in the same spot in the Eastern Conference as CGY is in the Western Conference, just on the outside looking in. Not a bad add for a final push this season and ideally the next 7-8 years. Lou looks to be in pretty good shape. I've always thought TOR made the wrong choice in keeping the young bean-counter over Lou. I also see why VAN said goodbye, they are cash strapped for a few years yet and they have been hanging onto a lot of dead money year after year. Luongo just came off the books this year and he’s been gone since 2014. Thank you Mike Gillis.

Wasn't Lou NJ's GM that traded the Horvat pick for Schneider? Stay around long enough and everything goes full circle.

I like the move by NYI, if they actually secure a good top 6 C, but 2 things:

How much does he re-sign for? I'd put him and Larkin the same, $8-8.5 maybe. Both will want $9 x 8.

And what will that 1st rder be? Beauvillier and Raty are pretty much whatever.

But if NYI get a bonafide, at very worst, 2C and signed for $8 x 8 that's a solid pick-up. Beauvillier covers half of year 1.

[conundrumed]

How on earth does the all-star weekend get fixed? The parody that is the skills competition is in serious need of sketch-writers. The whole breakaway thing is god awful. Does anybody laugh? It's so bad.

Just go back to trick shots or something. It's so gaudy and cringe. Do all charmed-life people have senses of humour that are about as interesting as canned bread?

Holy unwatchable.

Hardest commentator job in sports: Make this interesting. Hire pro comedians to commentate.

It's trying to be a circus or a carnival, not sure which one because it fails so hard.

"It's for kids". Okay, whose 9yo understands Miami Vice references? It's so bad on so many levels.

Are they actually serious thinking this is remotely entertaining for anyone?

It even fails at parody, now that's saying something.

[CheersMan]

21 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

How on earth does the all-star weekend get fixed? The parody that is the skills competition is in serious need of sketch-writers. The whole breakaway thing is god awful. Does anybody laugh? It's so bad.

Just go back to trick shots or something. It's so gaudy and cringe. Do all charmed-life people have senses of humour that are about as interesting as canned bread?

Holy unwatchable.

Hardest commentator job in sports: Make this interesting. Hire pro comedians to commentate.

It's trying to be a circus or a carnival, not sure which one because it fails so hard.

"It's for kids". Okay, whose 9yo understands Miami Vice references? It's so bad on so many levels.

Are they actually serious thinking this is remotely entertaining for anyone?

It even fails at parody, now that's saying something.

Who was the German dude that took 15 shot attempts to hit 4 targets? Poor guy was out there all alone with nobody's coat tail to hang onto.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

32 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

How on earth does the all-star weekend get fixed? The parody that is the skills competition is in serious need of sketch-writers. The whole breakaway thing is god awful. Does anybody laugh? It's so bad.

Just go back to trick shots or something. It's so gaudy and cringe. Do all charmed-life people have senses of humour that are about as interesting as canned bread?

Holy unwatchable.

Hardest commentator job in sports: Make this interesting. Hire pro comedians to commentate.

It's trying to be a circus or a carnival, not sure which one because it fails so hard.

"It's for kids". Okay, whose 9yo understands Miami Vice references? It's so bad on so many levels.

Are they actually serious thinking this is remotely entertaining for anyone?

It even fails at parody, now that's saying something.

I tried watching a bit last night but cmon..... a dunk tank? Now that these off ice pageantry events are a thing, you'll never see an all star weekend in a place like Winnipeg, Calgary or Minnesota anymore (not like Winnipeg was ever going to be awarded one anyway). I've always had issues with some aspects of the ASG/skills comp but the more circus acts it adds the worse it gets and the league is so ignorant or clueless about what the fans like it will only get worse.

 

I dont really follow other sports, are the other leagues doing the same thing?

[conundrumed]

Just now, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I tried watching a bit last night but cmon..... a dunk tank? Now that these off ice pageantry events are a thing, you'll never see an all star weekend in a place like Winnipeg, Calgary or Minnesota anymore (not like Winnipeg was ever going to be awarded one anyway). I've always had issues with some aspects of the ASG/skills comp but the more circus acts it adds the worse it gets and the league is so ignorant or clueless about what the fans like it will only get worse.

 

I dont really follow other sports, are the other leagues doing the same thing?

MLB players actually care abou the home run derby. NBA players actually care about the slam dunk competition.

There is nothing the NHL players care about. Target shooting, hardest shot maybe, but it's nowhere near the same level.

[sak22]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

MLB players actually care abou the home run derby. NBA players actually care about the slam dunk competition.

There is nothing the NHL players care about. Target shooting, hardest shot maybe, but it's nowhere near the same level.

I think the derby has become a one and done with a lot of players, but when the players are in it they are definitely trying to crush the ball, and the dunk contest has become a rookie and sophomore event, but it provides a great showcase for them so few pass it up.  Personally I'm quite over the whole weekend, loved it as a kid but that was when it was really the only stage for Gretzky vs. Lemieux, and getting to see players you don't always see on TV.  But I think the event is more for the kids.  So if the kids enjoy this and get more into the game than its a good thing for the league.  My only wish is back to a 2 team format, I don't know if the quality of the 3 on 3 games is good or bad, as I haven't watched since this format, but how about making it for players who deserve it and quite frankly on most years lately the goalies on the Pacific division have been poor, Skinner is not an all-star this year, and the Flames have sent 2 goalies under this format to the game in the past Smith and Rittich and neither of them really deserved it where Markstrom was last year and got snubbed.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

30 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I think the derby has become a one and done with a lot of players, but when the players are in it they are definitely trying to crush the ball, and the dunk contest has become a rookie and sophomore event, but it provides a great showcase for them so few pass it up.  Personally I'm quite over the whole weekend, loved it as a kid but that was when it was really the only stage for Gretzky vs. Lemieux, and getting to see players you don't always see on TV.  But I think the event is more for the kids.  So if the kids enjoy this and get more into the game than its a good thing for the league.  My only wish is back to a 2 team format, I don't know if the quality of the 3 on 3 games is good or bad, as I haven't watched since this format, but how about making it for players who deserve it and quite frankly on most years lately the goalies on the Pacific division have been poor, Skinner is not an all-star this year, and the Flames have sent 2 goalies under this format to the game in the past Smith and Rittich and neither of them really deserved it where Markstrom was last year and got snubbed.

I've always had the issue that the skills comps like fastest skater and hardest shot are only fastest and hardest of the invites. Could Stone have the hardest shot league wide? We'll never know.  Why wasn't McJesus in the fastest skater category and I'm sure there are others that may be even faster. Every team does their own skills comp so its not like the data isnt there, leave the game and the fan experience (meet and greet, dunk tank stuff) for the stars and leave the actual skills comp to those who may not otherwise ever get a chance to participate in something like this.

[Thebrewcrew]

NYI is confounding.

 

They have a phenomenal goalie. But they are an incredibly average team.

 

There's so much term on that roster. With the Horvat signing, they currently have 12 players with at least 3 years of term left. Tough to improve an aging team without much coming off the books.

 

Not sure why they gave Ross Johnston a 4yr deal. The money is low enough that it can be buried, it's just confusing that he would get 4yrs at all, coming off a 3yr deal previously. Not to mention a 6yr contract for their 4th line C in Cizikas. 

 

As others have said, NYI hasn't picked in the 1st since 2019. They're right in the mix with PIT and WSH in terms of being very thin in prospects. Again, not a great spot to be for an aging team.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

NYI is confounding.

 

They have a phenomenal goalie. But they are an incredibly average team.

 

There's so much term on that roster. With the Horvat signing, they currently have 12 players with at least 3 years of term left. Tough to improve an aging team without much coming off the books.

 

Not sure why they gave Ross Johnston a 4yr deal. The money is low enough that it can be buried, it's just confusing that he would get 4yrs at all, coming off a 3yr deal previously. Not to mention a 6yr contract for their 4th line C in Cizikas. 

 

As others have said, NYI hasn't picked in the 1st since 2019. They're right in the mix with PIT and WSH in terms of being very thin in prospects. Again, not a great spot to be for an aging team.

 

Ya agree the NYI roster looks so average.  Looks like four 2nd lines basically.  The addition of Horvat should help Barzal greatly as he's been carrying their offense by himself.  They need more of these moves to ship out mid-tier guys because they have too many of them.

[Thebrewcrew]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya agree the NYI roster looks so average.  Looks like four 2nd lines basically.  The addition of Horvat should help Barzal greatly as he's been carrying their offense by himself.  They need more of these moves to ship out mid-tier guys because they have too many of them.

They clearly tried to avoid a Tkachuk situation with Barzal. He had a 10m QO on the table this summer.

 

Instead Lou gave him 9.1x8. Barzal had the phenomenal 85pt rookie season, but has been a 60pt player ever since. It's a big gamble.

 

Guess that's the downfall of having an 80yr old GM. He doesn't really care as it's gonna be someone else's issue.

[The_People1]

34 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

They clearly tried to avoid a Tkachuk situation with Barzal. He had a 10m QO on the table this summer.

 

Instead Lou gave him 9.1x8. Barzal had the phenomenal 85pt rookie season, but has been a 60pt player ever since. It's a big gamble.

 

Guess that's the downfall of having an 80yr old GM. He doesn't really care as it's gonna be someone else's issue.

 

Horvat is arguably the most talented linemate Barzal has ever had.  There's potential for Gaudreau - Monahan type of setup as Barzal moves to RW with Horvat at Center.  Time will tell but I think Barzal trends back towards a 85-point player.

[sak22]

If this years Horvat is going to be the guy going forward then 8.5 is a steal.  If this year is a blip and he is only a 50-60 player than that going to be a nightmare.  If Horvat is getting that we should be worried what Lindholm will be asking.

[The_People1]

55 minutes ago, sak22 said:

If this years Horvat is going to be the guy going forward then 8.5 is a steal.  If this year is a blip and he is only a 50-60 player than that going to be a nightmare.  If Horvat is getting that we should be worried what Lindholm will be asking.

 

At what price should we trade Lindholm?

[sak22]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

At what price should we trade Lindholm?

I wouldn't consider anything without a top prospect and 1st rounder, and that would be to even begin a conversation.  The Horvat trade is somewhat a template in that both players are C at the same age, but Lindholm is better.  My guess would be that they will try negotiating in the summer and see where that goes, personally I would see if you can get a haul but I don't know if that is in the cards as he is a Sutter fav.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

If this years Horvat is going to be the guy going forward then 8.5 is a steal.  If this year is a blip and he is only a 50-60 player than that going to be a nightmare.  If Horvat is getting that we should be worried what Lindholm will be asking.

 

16 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

At what price should we trade Lindholm?

 

Hasn't Kadri already set the bar for the new deal?

Younger than Kadri, but the peak is similar.

New deal is probably in the 7.5M and up range.

So, would that be crazy for our current only #1?

[sak22]

42 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

Hasn't Kadri already set the bar for the new deal?

Younger than Kadri, but the peak is similar.

New deal is probably in the 7.5M and up range.

So, would that be crazy for our current only #1?

If the team is setting a bar at 7.5 then its goodbye Lindholm, he isn't taking .5 mil more than Kadri when he is significantly younger and with the exception of 1 year has been more productive the last 5 years.  Then add in the Selke nod, and the fact he plays all situations, I don't see him getting less than Horvat.  If Lindholm signs for anything close to 7.5 it is because he loves being here, I don't know if he does that much.

[conundrumed]

6 hours ago, sak22 said:

If the team is setting a bar at 7.5 then its goodbye Lindholm, he isn't taking .5 mil more than Kadri when he is significantly younger and with the exception of 1 year has been more productive the last 5 years.  Then add in the Selke nod, and the fact he plays all situations, I don't see him getting less than Horvat.  If Lindholm signs for anything close to 7.5 it is because he loves being here, I don't know if he does that much.

Totally agree. Horvat sets the bar, as will Larkin. Definitely $8.5 x 8 range.

Need to see where the cap is headed. He's worth it with a decent cap jump. It'll be the going rate and might as well do it early before that rate gets bigger. We're never going to like the rates, but those are the rates.

Yzerman bargains as hard as BT does, so Larkin will definitely set the tone. It's going to be $8.5 x 8, so get used to that number. That is Lindholm's value, like it or not.

[travel_dude]

11 hours ago, sak22 said:

If the team is setting a bar at 7.5 then its goodbye Lindholm, he isn't taking .5 mil more than Kadri when he is significantly younger and with the exception of 1 year has been more productive the last 5 years.  Then add in the Selke nod, and the fact he plays all situations, I don't see him getting less than Horvat.  If Lindholm signs for anything close to 7.5 it is because he loves being here, I don't know if he does that much.

 

I did say the 7.5 and up range.  I do find the extension discussion for Lindholm difficult.  He was underpaid during his stay here, but his contract was based on previous performance.    As far as the going rate for his age/performance?  He will be 30 his first season under a new contract.  An 8 year deal can mitigate the early years cost with lower actual when he is 36 and 37.  Horvat will be 2 years younger and Larkin 2 years younger when they start their new contract seasons.  

 

The benefit for him will be that Backlund's deal expires at the same time and the cap is likely to go up a little more than it will this year.