WHO ARE THE CALGARY FLAMES???

[cross16]

I think i've made it pretty well known here my feelings on Geoff Ward. I think he is a very poor head coach and there is quite a bit of blame his way for this season.

 

That being said, at the same time the purpose of this post was to point out that 4 years later we are seeing the same theme so it prompts the question of how much coaching is to blame. 

 

Is it the coaches responsibility to have players emotionally ready to play? Not IMO

Is it the coaches fault that once one bad things happens to this club they seem to fold? Not IMO

Is it the coaches fault that this team cannot understand simple situational awareness (ie Milan Lucic don't dump soft backhand pass in the neutral zone) ? Not IMO

Is it the coaches job this team likes to put passes in guys feet? Not IMO. 

 

There is a lot a coach fan fix yes in terms of systems, deployment, schemes etc. Ward is failing bad in all of those areas but I'm not sure that's really the crux of the issue and for he can't solve what is really the problem. 

 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I think i've made it pretty well known here my feelings on Geoff Ward. I think he is a very poor head coach and there is quite a bit of blame his way for this season.

 

That being said, at the same time the purpose of this post was to point out that 4 years later we are seeing the same theme so it prompts the question of how much coaching is to blame. 

 

Is it the coaches responsibility to have players emotionally ready to play? Not IMO

Is it the coaches fault that once one bad things happens to this club they seem to fold? Not IMO

Is it the coaches fault that this team cannot understand simple situational awareness (ie Milan Lucic don't dump soft backhand pass in the neutral zone) ? Not IMO

Is it the coaches job this team likes to put passes in guys feet? Not IMO. 

 

There is a lot a coach fan fix yes in terms of systems, deployment, schemes etc. Ward is failing bad in all of those areas but I'm not sure that's really the crux of the issue and for he can't solve what is really the problem. 

 

 

If the coach would start with the things he has control over, that may go a long way to the team improving.

I have seen little adjustment whether we are winning (infrequent) or losing.

No, the coach doesn't tell the players to take their toys and go home if they have a bad shift.

 

I think it's going to be hard to get to the root cause of the issues.

The core was around for a great season followed by crapping the bed in the playoffs.

The coach was part of that regular season success, but is not following that playbook.

Or at least it seems that way.

 

I just can't figure out what is causing the team to play so poorly.

Dump and chase isn't working; fine, work on it or abandon it.

Passes aren't connecting, but it seems like the F are way to far up the ice to execute properly; why is it such a slow methodical process to get out?

That seems like some kind of strategy, so why are we doing that and accepting that?

 

[cross16]

16 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

If the coach would start with the things he has control over, that may go a long way to the team improving.

I have seen little adjustment whether we are winning (infrequent) or losing.

No, the coach doesn't tell the players to take their toys and go home if they have a bad shift.

 

I think it's going to be hard to get to the root cause of the issues.

The core was around for a great season followed by crapping the bed in the playoffs.

The coach was part of that regular season success, but is not following that playbook.

Or at least it seems that way.

 

I just can't figure out what is causing the team to play so poorly.

Dump and chase isn't working; fine, work on it or abandon it.

Passes aren't connecting, but it seems like the F are way to far up the ice to execute properly; why is it such a slow methodical process to get out?

That seems like some kind of strategy, so why are we doing that and accepting that?

 

 

yes there is no question Ward and the coaching staff could make many adjustments to this team (probably easier to just get a new coach but that's a different argument) and I think they would be in much better shape. I am still of the opinion that this is a very talented team and they should be much better this year, I put the bulk of that blame on Ward. The Flames need to activate dmen off the rush so it allows them to use hitch plays or weak side passes, increase their carry in % and dump their d zone coverage in favor of more zone. All of those things would help but this is what it boils down to for me.

 

Are we content with getting a new coach to fix the x/os, scheme and recover so they can maybe win a round or 2 in the playoffs?

Or do we take a step back and start to ask ourselves what is the problem, who is the problem and how do we fix it?

 

I'm in the later. 

[travel_dude]

48 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

yes there is no question Ward and the coaching staff could make many adjustments to this team (probably easier to just get a new coach but that's a different argument) and I think they would be in much better shape. I am still of the opinion that this is a very talented team and they should be much better this year, I put the bulk of that blame on Ward. The Flames need to activate dmen off the rush so it allows them to use hitch plays or weak side passes, increase their carry in % and dump their d zone coverage in favor of more zone. All of those things would help but this is what it boils down to for me.

 

Are we content with getting a new coach to fix the x/os, scheme and recover so they can maybe win a round or 2 in the playoffs?

Or do we take a step back and start to ask ourselves what is the problem, who is the problem and how do we fix it?

 

I'm in the later. 

 

I would be content with the latter.  But here we are 23 games into the year and still asking what the problem is.  I've seen no measurable adjustment to anything that isn't working.

It's hard to fathom that a player like Gio would fall back to a passive strategy on his own.  Or that Ras could not be shown tapes that show the options he has and get him to follow the guidance.  If those two are the problem, then you hold them accountable.  Change the pairs to get the type of setup you want.  If the F are blowing the zone to get ready for offense, then they have to be accountable too.  Bennett's lazy backhecking.  Monahan skating back slowly.    

 

The biggest reason to bring in a new coach is to identify the scheme, personnel required (scouting), and get it ready for next season, not just trying to scrape a win in the playoffs.

You get the plan in place, evaluate what you have according to that plan and fix the issues with the team by the off-season.  Going with the current coach implies he is part of the solution.  

 

 

[JTech780]

I agree with Versteeg, this team isn't fast, but their system really accentuates that lack of speed. This team plays slow, and when they don't generate any offense they get blamed for not working hard enough. I agree that this team needs a shake up, rebuild or retool. That being said the only reason they aren't in layoff spot right now, is because of Geoff Ward. 

[travel_dude]

28 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I agree with Versteeg, this team isn't fast, but their system really accentuates that lack of speed. This team plays slow, and when they don't generate any offense they get blamed for not working hard enough. I agree that this team needs a shake up, rebuild or retool. That being said the only reason they aren't in layoff spot right now, is because of Geoff Ward. 

 

So, who is telling Gio to hang back until the line change is done and the other team is completely set?

Is that Ward or Huska or Gio deciding that.

It's pretty fundamental.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, who is telling Gio to hang back until the line change is done and the other team is completely set?

Is that Ward or Huska or Gio deciding that.

It's pretty fundamental.

 

is it a product of aging or the coach? What has he done historically? Maybe it’s a change in coaching philosophy that is affecting his game and not his age? Probably his age though. 

[JTech780]

Flames' struggles, style of play and ways to fix their issues - Sportsnet.ca

 

Here is the full interview with Versteeg. Great stuff. 

 

Key points:

1. Stop letting teams set up their forecheck and get the puck moving up the ice quicker.

2. Stop sitting back and letting the other teams run their breakouts, go flush them out and force them to move the puck when they don't want to.

3. Set clearer roles for all the players on the team. The example he gave was Sam Bennett, he isn't a top 6 goal scorer, he is a bottom 6 guy, tell what is expected of him and have him go out play that role. Rhett mentioned that with Sutter you always knew what your role on the team was and that made it easier for guys.

 

I really like roles thing, and I think that has been missing here for awhile. Outside of Gaudreau and Monahan who are just out there to provide offense, what is everyone else's role on this team? I think you can see the struggle with guys like Tkachuk, Dube, Lindholm on not fully understanding what is expected of them out there all the time.

[cross16]

23 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Flames' struggles, style of play and ways to fix their issues - Sportsnet.ca

 

Here is the full interview with Versteeg. Great stuff. 

 

Key points:

1. Stop letting teams set up their forecheck and get the puck moving up the ice quicker.

2. Stop sitting back and letting the other teams run their breakouts, go flush them out and force them to move the puck when they don't want to.

3. Set clearer roles for all the players on the team. The example he gave was Sam Bennett, he isn't a top 6 goal scorer, he is a bottom 6 guy, tell what is expected of him and have him go out play that role. Rhett mentioned that with Sutter you always knew what your role on the team was and that made it easier for guys.

 

I really like roles thing, and I think that has been missing here for awhile. Outside of Gaudreau and Monahan who are just out there to provide offense, what is everyone else's role on this team? I think you can see the struggle with guys like Tkachuk, Dube, Lindholm on not fully understanding what is expected of them out there all the time.

 

Agreed. People like to talk about how the modern player is "soft" and has to be babysat and I don't agree, they just want this. They just want clear communication, expectations and rationale behind what is expected of them. They just are not going to go and play and do whatever just for the good of the team, they need to understand it and I see nothing wrong with that. 

 

I don't agree with all of what Versteeg said, but the theme is bang on the Flames don't play with enough pace and I do put a lot of that on the coaching staff. It doesn't make much sense either because again you've had situations this season where the Flames did play that way. They were quick to counter attack, they pressured to force plays and they forced the issue and they looked good doing it. Why they've abandoned that i'm not sure ill ever understand. 

 

 

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Flames' struggles, style of play and ways to fix their issues - Sportsnet.ca

 

Here is the full interview with Versteeg. Great stuff. 

 

Key points:

1. Stop letting teams set up their forecheck and get the puck moving up the ice quicker.

2. Stop sitting back and letting the other teams run their breakouts, go flush them out and force them to move the puck when they don't want to.

3. Set clearer roles for all the players on the team. The example he gave was Sam Bennett, he isn't a top 6 goal scorer, he is a bottom 6 guy, tell what is expected of him and have him go out play that role. Rhett mentioned that with Sutter you always knew what your role on the team was and that made it easier for guys.

 

I really like roles thing, and I think that has been missing here for awhile. Outside of Gaudreau and Monahan who are just out there to provide offense, what is everyone else's role on this team? I think you can see the struggle with guys like Tkachuk, Dube, Lindholm on not fully understanding what is expected of them out there all the time.

 

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Agreed. People like to talk about how the modern player is "soft" and has to be babysat and I don't agree, they just want this. They just want clear communication, expectations and rationale behind what is expected of them. They just are not going to go and play and do whatever just for the good of the team, they need to understand it and I see nothing wrong with that. 

 

I don't agree with all of what Versteeg said, but the theme is bang on the Flames don't play with enough pace and I do put a lot of that on the coaching staff. It doesn't make much sense either because again you've had situations this season where the Flames did play that way. They were quick to counter attack, they pressured to force plays and they forced the issue and they looked good doing it. Why they've abandoned that i'm not sure ill ever understand. 

 

 

I was  just listening to Strindberg close the day describing how he sees the team in practice and how he sees it in games. He says they look like a completely different team in practice and seem to play with pace and the plays they’re practicing are different. I can’t say what they do as I never get to watch, just that coming from him, he’s able to see a lot more practices than I do.

 

Are the players just folding under pressure or don’t know how to translate what they do in practice to in game situations?

[travel_dude]

31 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I was  just listening to Strindberg close the day describing how he sees the team in practice and how he sees it in games. He says they look like a completely different team in practice and seem to play with pace and the plays they’re practicing are different. I can’t say what they do as I never get to watch, just that coming from him, he’s able to see a lot more practices than I do.

 

Are the players just folding under pressure or don’t know how to translate what they do in practice to in game situations?

 

I don't really have a high opinion of that group.

I think that pair are really just saying anything to support the coach, because they are convinced it's the players.

They see the product on the ice and think it must be the players.

They admit they know nothing about playing pro hockey or coaching.

Breakout are a problem, slow movement of pucks are a problem, neutral zone a problem, bumpback a problem, passive D a problem.

 

The one thing they said that had merit was splitting Monahan and Gaudreau.

But the only reason why they want to do that is becuase they blame it (mostly) on them not scoring 5v5.

Must be their problem, not the game they are told to play.

 

 

 

 

 

[The_People1]

6 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Flames' struggles, style of play and ways to fix their issues - Sportsnet.ca

 

Here is the full interview with Versteeg. Great stuff. 

 

Key points:

1. Stop letting teams set up their forecheck and get the puck moving up the ice quicker.

2. Stop sitting back and letting the other teams run their breakouts, go flush them out and force them to move the puck when they don't want to.

3. Set clearer roles for all the players on the team. The example he gave was Sam Bennett, he isn't a top 6 goal scorer, he is a bottom 6 guy, tell what is expected of him and have him go out play that role. Rhett mentioned that with Sutter you always knew what your role on the team was and that made it easier for guys.

 

I really like roles thing, and I think that has been missing here for awhile. Outside of Gaudreau and Monahan who are just out there to provide offense, what is everyone else's role on this team? I think you can see the struggle with guys like Tkachuk, Dube, Lindholm on not fully understanding what is expected of them out there all the time.

 

Is Versteeg applying for the soon-to-be vacant head coaching jobs with the Flames?

[LouCifer]

I’m sure at practice our offense looks much more threatening against the passive defense we’ve implemented. Our forwards just don’t know what to do if the opposition doesn’t let us just waltz into their zone! 

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Is Versteeg applying for the soon-to-be vacant head coaching jobs with the Flames?

 

I'm assuming Gallant is in BC until he gets the call from Seattle.

TBH, I think all the coaching staff have to go, rebuild, re-tool or whatever.

You don't want anything that resembles the systems to remain reardless of what players remain. 

[sak22]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

I was  just listening to Strindberg close the day describing how he sees the team in practice and how he sees it in games. He says they look like a completely different team in practice and seem to play with pace and the plays they’re practicing are different. I can’t say what they do as I never get to watch, just that coming from him, he’s able to see a lot more practices than I do.

 

Are the players just folding under pressure or don’t know how to translate what they do in practice to in game situations?

It's the music man.  During practice its going all the time, and games it stops during play.  Maybe they all need to play with headphones like the kid in Hardball.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't really have a high opinion of that group.

I think that pair are really just saying anything to support the coach, because they are convinced it's the players.

They see the product on the ice and think it must be the players.

They admit they know nothing about playing pro hockey or coaching.

Breakout are a problem, slow movement of pucks are a problem, neutral zone a problem, bumpback a problem, passive D a problem.

 

The one thing they said that had merit was splitting Monahan and Gaudreau.

But the only reason why they want to do that is becuase they blame it (mostly) on them not scoring 5v5.

Must be their problem, not the game they are told to play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ya but, from them, forever. it has been you can’t split those two up, ever.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

ya but, from them, forever. it has been you can’t split those two up, ever.

 

Playoffs not withstanding, this season is the first time that they have not had magic.  The 960 boys look at playoffs as being why they should be split up.  I am only in favor of it to try some other things, but I don't suspect the lines are the answer at all.  When was the last time we saw a Gaudreau breakaway?  Forever, since the D won't move the puck with Gaudreau on the ice.  Transition consists of a pass to Gaudreau in the D-zone and he skates it up the ice with the little options.  Or they fire the pass up the boards with 50/50 chance of it turning into anything.  It's frustrating, especially on the no pessure slow breakout.  Dump it so we can get past the D, then it's out.  Bennett tries to go though 2-3 players without passing.  Backlund and Mangiapane are two of the few that can execute passes.  Tkachuk is not being hit wth passes very often with speed.

 

But I digress.

[dieselmarble]

18 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

is it a product of aging or the coach? What has he done historically? Maybe it’s a change in coaching philosophy that is affecting his game and not his age? Probably his age though. 

 

 

Like i said before he is getting too old, trade him while you can get something for him,, business decision not like the flames always do, lets keep him until he retires here. He is on a steep slide. too old period.

[cross16]

18 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I was  just listening to Strindberg close the day describing how he sees the team in practice and how he sees it in games. He says they look like a completely different team in practice and seem to play with pace and the plays they’re practicing are different. I can’t say what they do as I never get to watch, just that coming from him, he’s able to see a lot more practices than I do.

 

Are the players just folding under pressure or don’t know how to translate what they do in practice to in game situations?

 

This is the theme i keep seeing. Maybe it's not folding under pressure but this team does, and has for a while, reacted poorly to unfavorable situations. 

 

Why that is, your guess is as good as mine. I suspect it's part player, part coach but what % lies where is likely up for debate. 

[travel_dude]

37 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

This is the theme i keep seeing. Maybe it's not folding under pressure but this team does, and has for a while, reacted poorly to unfavorable situations. 

 

Why that is, your guess is as good as mine. I suspect it's part player, part coach but what % lies where is likely up for debate. 

 

What I don't get is why after scoring a big goal do they immediately play like they have a 5 goal lead and don't care?

We see Lucic score a big PP goal and basically his next shift it's a low percentage pass coming out of the zone.

We score a goal with the 2nd unit on.

First shift after?  11 seconds of top line, a minute of 3M and then Lucic's line.

 

On the surface it looks like they are fragile and can't get out of their own way.

But, the coach preaches waiting for opportunity.

Maybe it's just me, but how is scoring a PP goal then going back to the lack of urgency shown the rest of the game really a good idea?

If anything, we should be preaching put the foot to the floor.

Meaning, you just scored a goal, press them harder.

 

[dieselmarble]

They would be a pretty decent AHL team, well maybe.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

What I don't get is why after scoring a big goal do they immediately play like they have a 5 goal lead and don't care?

We see Lucic score a big PP goal and basically his next shift it's a low percentage pass coming out of the zone.

We score a goal with the 2nd unit on.

First shift after?  11 seconds of top line, a minute of 3M and then Lucic's line.

 

On the surface it looks like they are fragile and can't get out of their own way.

But, the coach preaches waiting for opportunity.

Maybe it's just me, but how is scoring a PP goal then going back to the lack of urgency shown the rest of the game really a good idea?

If anything, we should be preaching put the foot to the floor.

Meaning, you just scored a goal, press them harder.

 

 

I really don't like that kind of hockey, waiting for the opportunity. If you're not attacking, you're not creating your own chances. Maybe it's simantics, maybe he is trying to say something else? Like if you defend well you will get your chances? I like to think if you're forechecking and backchecking hard you're going to get going on the other way faster, and then creating. Plus getting the puck first, you're making the other team to have to react. If you're only reacting then you're letting the other team dictate the play.

[Thebrewcrew]

Saturday will tell you a lot about this team.

-Flames haven’t responded well after a game in which they lit up the scoreboard. We saw that Monday night.

 

-The Oilers embarrassed them a couple weeks ago. How do they respond to that? Do they start on time? Are they connected as a 5 man unit? Are passes crisp and accurate? Can they get clean zone exits?

 

Also keeping in mind that this is an Oiler team that will be grumpy, having been embarrassed by the Leafs. It won’t be easy

[MP5029]

Well with Sutter as the new coach this just may become the hardest working and tough to play against team again😊🤞

[pikey7883]

I previously posted in this thread that the team was lost and if the coach was removed they may feel unshackled and have a run away game sort of speak. I wonder if the players knew before last night that Ward was done and they actually played an uptempo game that suits their skill set? Of course I’m just surmising, lol.