WHO ARE THE CALGARY FLAMES???

[rickross]

We’ve seen many iterations of the Calgary Flames over the years. From the stout defensive minded days of the Suter regime, where we only scored when Iggy scored. To the rebuilding “Heartbreak Kids” under Bob Hartley and more recently  the short lived stints with Gulutzan and Bill Peters. 
 

In recent years this team has had an identity crisis. We had one the highest rated defensive groups at one point but the team struggled defensively. 2 years ago this team won the Western division, only to be embarrassed in the 1st rd. 
 

We’ve all bared witness to the inconsistencies of this team, failure to play full 60 mins games, lacklustre goaltending and the lack of pushback have plagued this team for years. So just WHO are the Calgary Flames? Are they contenders or pretenders? Does this team even have an identity? If it does...what is it? What or who does this team have to become before they can contend for the Stanley Cup?

 

Let’s chop it up!

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

39 minutes ago, rickross said:

We’ve seen many iterations of the Calgary Flames over the years. From the stout defensive minded days of the Suter regime, where we only scored when Iggy scored. To the rebuilding “Heartbreak Kids” under Bob Hartley and more recently  the short lived stints with Gulutzan and Bill Peters. 
 

In recent years this team has had an identity crisis. We had one the highest rated defensive groups at one point but the team struggled defensively. 2 years ago this team won the Western division, only to be embarrassed in the 1st rd. 
 

We’ve all bared witness to the inconsistencies of this team, failure to play full 60 mins games, lacklustre goaltending and the lack of pushback have plagued this team for years. So just WHO are the Calgary Flames? Are they contenders or pretenders? Does this team even have an identity? If it does...what is it? What or who does this team have to become before they can contend for the Stanley Cup?

 

Let’s chop it up!

I think the idea that a team needs an identity is overrated, unless you count consistency as an identity.  For a continuation from the last few years we've already seen very few games where there is 3 periods of continuous effort or the ability to adjust to changes in play style. I dont know if it's the mgmt, coaching, or the players but until that changes the idea of an identity is a non-issue.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I think the idea that a team needs an identity is overrated, unless you count consistency as an identity.  For a continuation from the last few years we've already seen very few games where there is 3 periods of continuous effort or the ability to adjust to changes in play style. I dont know if it's the mgmt, coaching, or the players but until that changes the idea of an identity is a non-issue.

 

I guess that depends on what you define as identity. I agree that sometimes the idea of "identity" from fans is too simplistic. Thinks like hard working, fast, tough etc are not really an identity they are necessities. 

 

But I think every team needs a blueprint on how they think their team can play and be successful. Do we need to be that slow down the game, tight defensive and limit opportunities team, are we going to be fast/aggressive and counter attack etc etc. You can't be all of these things at once and be successful, you need to mold what you have into an identity that works for the team so that you know what success looks like for your team and know what you can fall back on when times get tough. That's identity to me and it's absolutely critical to team success and to me it falls on the head coach. The number 1 job of any head coach is setting the identity and then getting players to follow suit and stick to that identity. 

 

This is a big question for the Flames right now and I think it's 100% a fair one because for me there is no identity right now. Right now I see a team that wants to be a little bit of everything. They want to be tough when they need to be, fast when they need to be, good defensively when they need to be, aggressive when they need to be, passive and shut down when it warrants it. Problem is when you try to just be good at a lot of things you wind up with either confusion, or just being average. Kind of sums up the Flames for me since Ward took over. 

 

I'm critical of Ward, but at the same time I do think it's important to look at the circumstances he took this job under. The fact that the flames don't' appear to have an identity is not cause for concern yet but the clock is starting to run on that one. 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I guess that depends on what you define as identity. I agree that sometimes the idea of "identity" from fans is too simplistic. Thinks like hard working, fast, tough etc are not really an identity they are necessities. 

 

But I think every team needs a blueprint on how they think their team can play and be successful. Do we need to be that slow down the game, tight defensive and limit opportunities team, are we going to be fast/aggressive and counter attack etc etc. You can't be all of these things at once and be successful, you need to mold what you have into an identity that works for the team so that you know what success looks like for your team and know what you can fall back on when times get tough. That's identity to me and it's absolutely critical to team success and to me it falls on the head coach. The number 1 job of any head coach is setting the identity and then getting players to follow suit and stick to that identity. 

 

This is a big question for the Flames right now and I think it's 100% a fair one because for me there is no identity right now. Right now I see a team that wants to be a little bit of everything. They want to be tough when they need to be, fast when they need to be, good defensively when they need to be, aggressive when they need to be, passive and shut down when it warrants it. Problem is when you try to just be good at a lot of things you wind up with either confusion, or just being average. Kind of sums up the Flames for me since Ward took over. 

 

I'm critical of Ward, but at the same time I do think it's important to look at the circumstances he took this job under. The fact that the flames don't' appear to have an identity is not cause for concern yet but the clock is starting to run on that one. 

 

He's been here for a year as HC.

The leadership group needs to stop talking about what they needed to do nd work with Ward to identify the strategies.

And implement.

If Gio is leading by example, then what is he showing?

Tanev blocks everything he gets in front of, but is anyone else?

He's working with Valimaki, but I think that's not the entire problem out there.

Ras is getting away from what he excelled in.

 

I thought the PP in the last two minutes of the game was a complete failure.

Dump and chase.

Throw Gio out there because he is an offensive star?

No thought to how to manage the last two minutes, no time out to plan.

Maybe one chance that was bobbled and one extra pass that deflected out of the zone. 

[pikey7883]

I know that I’m only a fan, and I don’t know what they talk about behind closed doors or the strategies and game planning they are trying to put in place. But to me, they look like a team that needs to pay at a fast pace, when the wheels start to come off the game and the play becomes frenetic, that when we see our “Good Players” excel. 
The issue with this is when the game is moving at this pace and the 4th line in particular, and lately the 3rd as well get caught out there, they get hemmed in and get exploited. Which makes the coach game plan differently (IMO), which is the opposite way to coach. Your play has to be dictated by the guys that put points on the board not by the ones that fall behind. At this point in time we are a very good balanced 3 line team, and the coach might need to run it that way until something changes. Force the GM to make changes, or bring up the young guys who can play like that.

And I do think they are trying to trend the team in that direction based on who they have been drafting. 

[rickross]

2 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I think the idea that a team needs an identity is overrated, unless you count consistency as an identity.  For a continuation from the last few years we've already seen very few games where there is 3 periods of continuous effort or the ability to adjust to changes in play style. I dont know if it's the mgmt, coaching, or the players but until that changes the idea of an identity is a non-issue.

Identity is tough to define. Perhaps a team doesn’t need an identity title but I’d believe they absolute need a play style and philosophy. This is what molds a team’s identity imo. I believe with Hartley even they had a motto of “Always taken , never given” or something along those lines. It was a simple way to create a workmen like philosophy and that group battled (especially in the 3rd periods lol). It’s not the perfect recipe but Atleast it provides some direction. I feel as though this team has been wondering aimlessly for years now. 

[rickross]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

He's been here for a year as HC.

The leadership group needs to stop talking about what they needed to do nd work with Ward to identify the strategies.

And implement.

If Gio is leading by example, then what is he showing?

Tanev blocks everything he gets in front of, but is anyone else?

He's working with Valimaki, but I think that's not the entire problem out there.

Ras is getting away from what he excelled in.

 

I thought the PP in the last two minutes of the game was a complete failure.

Dump and chase.

Throw Gio out there because he is an offensive star?

No thought to how to manage the last two minutes, no time out to plan.

Maybe one chance that was bobbled and one extra pass that deflected out of the zone. 

This is my concern as well.  Ward isn’t a new HC anymore. Furthermore he’s been an assistant coach for almost 3 yrs now. He shouldn’t still need time to figure out this team. This team doesn’t seem to have any true blueprint Atleast not one that’s worked in some time. Under Peters in his 1st year we were a very fast, skilled team that would cause teams to turnover pucks and we’d make them pay for it. That lasted ones season, then poof ....this team is nowhere near that level of play right now. They brought in Lucic to be tougher, we’ve implanted youth in the lineup in Mangiapne and Dube, we seemed to have great goaltending now with Markstrom but it’s all yet to click. And it hasn’t in some time. As u said we keep hearing the vets and management talk us up but no results. I do feel it’s imperative to play with a defined style or philosophy , you KNOW when your playing the Lightening or the Golden Knights...there’s a definite identity how they play and defend every game. With Calgary it changes from play to play , period to period and game to game. There consistently inconsistent 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

53 minutes ago, rickross said:

Identity is tough to define. Perhaps a team doesn’t need an identity title but I’d believe they absolute need a play style and philosophy. This is what molds a team’s identity imo. I believe with Hartley even they had a motto of “Always taken , never given” or something along those lines. It was a simple way to create a workmen like philosophy and that group battled (especially in the 3rd periods lol). It’s not the perfect recipe but Atleast it provides some direction. I feel as though this team has been wondering aimlessly for years now. 

Which is where consistency comes in.  If the by product of consistency is an identity then great.  I just dont buy in to the identity need because whatever identities the team may have had since '04 has resulted in nothing.

[sak22]

2 hours ago, rickross said:

Identity is tough to define. Perhaps a team doesn’t need an identity title but I’d believe they absolute need a play style and philosophy. This is what molds a team’s identity imo. I believe with Hartley even they had a motto of “Always taken , never given” or something along those lines. It was a simple way to create a workmen like philosophy and that group battled (especially in the 3rd periods lol). It’s not the perfect recipe but Atleast it provides some direction. I feel as though this team has been wondering aimlessly for years now. 

The more distanced I am from the Hartley era the less I appreciate it.  I feel that he benefited in favor by making one playoffs and not being last in either year which most here expected.  I think the always taken, never given is generally going to work anywhere when most of the roster is on ELC's or you get UDFA's like Josh Jooris, or vets trying to capitalize on an expanded role for another pay day, that said I do like that approach over gifting a first rounder top minutes.  But guys like Russell were celebrated by the old school guys for blocking shots, but why did he need to block so many shots?  Comeback wins last year almost had the same feeling around here as an overtime loss,  if I had a nickel every time someone posted "full 60" after a comeback win, I'd have enough for a roll of nickels.  Under Hartley some of those games they looked like an AHL team for 50 minutes and only played well for 10 and got the W, we treated those wins differently because they were unexpected.  Also seemed like teams like St. Louis, Anaheim, LA and SJ (with the exception of that one year) dominated them almost every game.  It was a fun era I guess because expectations were low, but I don't think anything more of the Hartley era other than slightly beating expectations, still a lot of bad hockey played those days.

[rickross]

6 minutes ago, sak22 said:

The more distanced I am from the Hartley era the less I appreciate it.  I feel that he benefited in favor by making one playoffs and not being last in either year which most here expected.  I think the always taken, never given is generally going to work anywhere when most of the roster is on ELC's or you get UDFA's like Josh Jooris, or vets trying to capitalize on an expanded role for another pay day, that said I do like that approach over gifting a first rounder top minutes.  But guys like Russell were celebrated by the old school guys for blocking shots, but why did he need to block so many shots?  Comeback wins last year almost had the same feeling around here as an overtime loss,  if I had a nickel every time someone posted "full 60" after a comeback win, I'd have enough for a roll of nickels.  Under Hartley some of those games they looked like an AHL team for 50 minutes and only played well for 10 and got the W, we treated those wins differently because they were unexpected.  Also seemed like teams like St. Louis, Anaheim, LA and SJ (with the exception of that one year) dominated them almost every game.  It was a fun era I guess because expectations were low, but I don't think anything more of the Hartley era other than slightly beating expectations, still a lot of bad hockey played those days.

We weren’t a good team under Bob Hartley. Trailing nearly every game into the 3rd is a sign the team was not good.  It was bad hockey made exciting by last minute comebacks and the fact the Flames draft picks were finally panning out in Gaudreau, Monny and a rookie Bennett. 
 

It feels as though the Flames never properly transitioned out of the rebuild. Initially they refused to even call it that , so with an ever changing team and with rotating coaches every 2 yrs ,it’s as if were stuck in this perennial rebuild and not really going anywhere. 

[sak22]

12 minutes ago, rickross said:

We weren’t a good team under Bob Hartley. Trailing nearly every game into the 3rd is a sign the team was not good.  It was bad hockey made exciting by last minute comebacks and the fact the Flames draft picks were finally panning out in Gaudreau, Monny and a rookie Bennett. 
 

It feels as though the Flames never properly transitioned out of the rebuild. Initially they refused to even call it that , so with an ever changing team and with rotating coaches every 2 yrs ,it’s as if were stuck in this perennial rebuild and not really going anywhere. 

I think the problem is we did it without the right materials.  In a way we picked the wrong years to suck like 2014 and didn't suck enough in 2013 to get a MacKinnon, Barkov or Jones.  The overachievement in 2015 cost them a chance for McDavid, Eichel or Marner.  Add in that Feaster did very little in his 3 drafts outside of Monahan and Gaudreau.  Some of the pieces were very good to great, adding in a late bloomer like Gio and we hit the average-good team in a quick fashion but lacked the right pieces to elevate from average-good to great.  Which is the dilemma that Treliving is in, too good to draft those players, too difficult to trade for those players, and the elite ones that hit the market like Tavares don't even give them a thought to come here.  Tough spot to be in, but still room for growth with many of the guys thats why I remain cautiously optimistic with this team.

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, rickross said:

We’ve seen many iterations of the Calgary Flames over the years. From the stout defensive minded days of the Suter regime, where we only scored when Iggy scored. To the rebuilding “Heartbreak Kids” under Bob Hartley and more recently  the short lived stints with Gulutzan and Bill Peters. 
 

In recent years this team has had an identity crisis. We had one the highest rated defensive groups at one point but the team struggled defensively. 2 years ago this team won the Western division, only to be embarrassed in the 1st rd. 
 

We’ve all bared witness to the inconsistencies of this team, failure to play full 60 mins games, lacklustre goaltending and the lack of pushback have plagued this team for years. So just WHO are the Calgary Flames? Are they contenders or pretenders? Does this team even have an identity? If it does...what is it? What or who does this team have to become before they can contend for the Stanley Cup?

 

Let’s chop it up!

 

Matvei Michkov

Connor Bedard

Kaden Galatiuk

Roman Turcotte

 

The identity of the current Flames, and more specifically current Flames management is not much now, but they will historically be known as the group that inadvertently ended up putting a Flames Jersey on one or more of the names above (as well as others we don't know of yet).

 

The Stanley Cup is making its way back to our Great City.

 

But we have another rebuild ahead of us to get there, and that rebuild will be what current players and management will be known for.

 

Patience.  Gonna need  it.

[MP5029]

Well I’d say they have the identity of being a weak team (mentality), skilled physically.

 

what they need and the only thing champs need is will power...Tachuck type but you need a team like that not just one guy...our successful years have been hard working playing for every inch of ice every second of every game...hard work, grit and determination makes that happen.

 

again what we see is a skilled group that folds under pressure...not saying skill is need too but we have too much flash and not enough dash on this team.

 

[cross16]

The "always earned never given" is a good example of what I'm referring to. to me that is not an identity that's a mantra or a rallying cry a coach can use as part of the vision but identity needs to be more than that. Every team needs to work hard, that's a given, the identity has to be how are we going to play and what style of play is going to make us effective. When I watch a team play I look for their identity being defined in when they play well and then also what happens when they break down. 

 

I may not have always agreed with it but I actually don't think there has been an identity problem until now and with this coaching staff. Outside of Jim Playfair I felt every coach since Sutter had an identity, even if the team results weren't great. Identity does not equal results as a lot go into it but this is the first team in quite a while where I can't tell you what this coach wants his team to be. 

[rickross]

To be Frank (even though I’m rick ha!) the identity of this team is 1st round exits. That’s essentially what the Flames are known for. 

[jjgallow]

10 minutes ago, rickross said:

To be Frank (even though I’m rick ha!) the identity of this team is 1st round exits. That’s essentially what the Flames are known for. 

 

That's unfair, they don't always make the playoffs.

[rickross]

40 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Well I’d say they have the identity of being a weak team (mentality), skilled physically.

 

what they need and the only thing champs need is will power...Tachuck type but you need a team like that not just one guy...our successful years have been hard working playing for every inch of ice every second of every game...hard work, grit and determination makes that happen.

 

again what we see is a skilled group that folds under pressure...not saying skill is need too but we have too much flash and not enough dash on this team.

 

Such a frail minded team! One bad play and it just seems to completely suck the life and focus out of this team. It’s been like that for some time now , it’s the same story every time “Flames fail in the face of adversity”. 
 

I know it’s early in the season but I already don’t trust whatever mental space they are in. I know the team tries, but it’s usually to no avail. There is no killer instinct to this team and we’ve seen time and time again the inability of this team to regroup when it matters most 

[rickross]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

That's unfair, they don't always make the playoffs.

Yet another sign of just how inconsistent they’ve been. They’re either not making the playoffs or if they do they get bounced by the 1st round. 

[travel_dude]

I think the identity is being pushed by the media.

Eric Francis polarizing the fanbase.

Stories about Johnny or Monahan.

MSM telling everyone and directing the questions towards their own belief of the identity.

 

EDM - fast team that scores at will, best top 6 in the league, generational player, Orange Crush, honerable compaired to CGY, bla, bla, bla 

CGY - no stars except a little guy who doesn't want to play here, aging D-man, coach killer, home of the Douchebag Tkachuk, little talent, trying to be tough

 

It's like sometimes we read the press and play the game the media wants.

Stories about Tkachuk, play accoring to media script (Kassian fight, Doughty nonsense, Draisaitl whinning about All Star game) by not playing hockey.

Stories about how great Mike Smith is and we play like that's the only way we can break out.

 

Maybe it comes from media availability, and the questions get into the player's heads.

Can we ask more stupid questions before or during a game?

Lead the answer with your stupid questions.

[medatswhoP]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

I think the identity is being pushed by the media.

Eric Francis polarizing the fanbase.

Stories about Johnny or Monahan.

MSM telling everyone and directing the questions towards their own belief of the identity.

 

EDM - fast team that scores at will, best top 6 in the league, generational player, Orange Crush, honerable compaired to CGY, bla, bla, bla 

CGY - no stars except a little guy who doesn't want to play here, aging D-man, coach killer, home of the Douchebag Tkachuk, little talent, trying to be tough

 

It's like sometimes we read the press and play the game the media wants.

Stories about Tkachuk, play accoring to media script (Kassian fight, Doughty nonsense, Draisaitl whinning about All Star game) by not playing hockey.

Stories about how great Mike Smith is and we play like that's the only way we can break out.

 

Maybe it comes from media availability, and the questions get into the player's heads.

Can we ask more stupid questions before or during a game?

Lead the answer with your stupid questions.

I agree with this post completely, Flames literally don't have an identity except for negative attributes.

Anyone that discusses the Flames look at the chithead Tkachuk, they all hate him, but would love him on their team.

Flames used to have an identity of "Never quit", or "Never give up", but not anymore.

This team has two major issues (yes there are some small ones) but they are:

#1 Not enough pucks at the net, whether poor or high quality there is not enough pucks in the zone towards the net. (They look like Europe type hockey out there)

#2 Powerplay, this year is brutal every team knows coming in they all rush the blue line dump it back and try to skate it through as one unit. 

(Personally I wish they would dump the puck in more).

Identity will not change until we rack up more in the win column, regardless of the hatred of Tkachuk.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, medatswhoP said:

I agree with this post completely, Flames literally don't have an identity except for negative attributes.

Anyone that discusses the Flames look at the chithead Tkachuk, they all hate him, but would love him on their team.

Flames used to have an identity of "Never quit", or "Never give up", but not anymore.

This team has two major issues (yes there are some small ones) but they are:

#1 Not enough pucks at the net, whether poor or high quality there is not enough pucks in the zone towards the net. (They look like Europe type hockey out there)

#2 Powerplay, this year is brutal every team knows coming in they all rush the blue line dump it back and try to skate it through as one unit. 

(Personally I wish they would dump the puck in more).

Identity will not change until we rack up more in the win column, regardless of the hatred of Tkachuk.

 

I would suggest that the PP is one thing that is working.

Less games than every other team, but good for 4th in the league so far.

We have seen scoring from different locations, but I agree they still don;t have the easy tap ins like the Oilers get.

That is due to good passes down low.

[robrob74]

6 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Matvei Michkov

Connor Bedard

Kaden Galatiuk

Roman Turcotte

 

The identity of the current Flames, and more specifically current Flames management is not much now, but they will historically be known as the group that inadvertently ended up putting a Flames Jersey on one or more of the names above (as well as others we don't know of yet).

 

The Stanley Cup is making its way back to our Great City.

 

But we have another rebuild ahead of us to get there, and that rebuild will be what current players and management will be known for.

 

Patience.  Gonna need  it.

 

nope! I agree with what you’re saying as Gaudreau and possibly Monahan will not be here. We will be a one line team when that happens as there’s not a contingency plan yet. Where I don’t agree is that they will be willing to suck enough to get that low for the better players. 
 

we needed another suck year and luck at the lottery. 
 

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I would suggest that the PP is one thing that is working.

Less games than every other team, but good for 4th in the league so far.

We have seen scoring from different locations, but I agree they still don;t have the easy tap ins like the Oilers get.

That is due to good passes down low.

I think teams are starting to figure out the PP. it is starting to get stale. I think they will still score but it’s looking easier to shut down. I think they need to look at the set up. It could have been that it was the first few games and the Canucks or Jets but how they passed and set up was so quick and constant movement. The movement seems a lot slower. I would love to see them put Lindholm over in a shooting position. Trade the sides both Gaudreau and Lindholm are on. That way both Lindholm and Gaudreau are in a position to shoot or pass. Lindholm has a quick release. Why waste it like they did on that great pass. While waiting to get it on his forehand the goalie had the split second to get into position to make the save...

 

the threat isn’t as dangerous as is. 
 

i think the lack of tap ins are because we don’t set up in the area for it. And teams collapse onto Monahan to take away his tap ins. 
 

 

[jjgallow]

52 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

nope! I agree with what you’re saying as Gaudreau and possibly Monahan will not be here. We will be a one line team when that happens as there’s not a contingency plan yet. Where I don’t agree is that they will be willing to suck enough to get that low for the better players. 
 

we needed another suck year and luck at the lottery. 
 

 

 

what you say makes a lot of sense but I hope you're wrong because I need some kind of hope in my life lol.

 

Keep in mind that the Flames may actually start getting good picks as early as this year, and with the lotto, anything can happen.

 

Also a team can only follow the same pattern for so long before it starts surpassing the lifespan of whoever's instilling those patterns (ownership?)

[rickross]

After this Montreal game I still couldn’t tell you who the Flames are as team but I think we can all see who they are not