Goaltending

[jjgallow]

9 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't think you will find many that will dispute the notion of starting Vladar more.

Sutter has a rendency on being hard on young guys when they make mistakes.

He rarely calls them out in the media.

But he remembers.

Wasn't impressed with DV coming in for the VAN game and getting beat up.

"He's the backup, supposed to be ready to come in".

I really only think that came up because the press seemed to be harping on Marky.

And DV came in cold and got rocked.

 

TBH, I just think it was a bit of lack of trust.  

Vladar had to do B2B's with Marky out and didn't look great.

Or so it seemed Sutter thought.

"He has to make that save,".

 

So, as much as we want him to get more starts and run with it, Sutter is standing there.

We need the W.  You are the backup.

Can you deliver?

 

Very hard to fault Sutter as a coach.

 

He's shown that you can win a cup overplaying your 25 year old starter (Jonathan Quick).

 

Basically did the same Kipper at 26 (it was in), although only for half a season which imho made the difference.

 

Unsurprisingly he hasn't had the same kind of luck with 30-something goalies and has killed off a lot of prospects in the process.

 

I blame BT, and this is yet another reason I didn't love the Markstrom acquisition (not actually Markstrom's fault).

 

You know he's gonna do it.

 

He's gonna do it.

 

You give him a 31 year old starter he's gonna overplay that 31 year old starter.

 

Don't give Sutter 30 year old goalies.   Give him a 25 year old and 24 year old and say "go nuts".   That's what he's won his cups with anyway.

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Very hard to fault Sutter as a coach.

 

He's shown that you can win a cup overplaying your 25 year old starter (Jonathan Quick).

 

Basically did the same Kipper at 26 (it was in)

 

Unsurprisingly he hasn't had the same kind of luck with 30-something goalies and has killed off a lot of prospects in the process.

 

I blame BT, and this is yet another reason I didn't love the Markstrom acquisition (not actually Markstrom's fault).

 

You know he's gonna do it.

 

He's gonna do it.

 

You give him a 31 year old starter he's gonna overplay that 31 year old starter.

 

Don't give Sutter 30 year old goalies.   Give him a 25 year old and 24 year old and say "go nuts".   That's what he's won his cups with anyway.

 

So, looking back at the last 12 cup winners, how many were 26 year olds or younger?

Kuemper, Holtby, MAF (when he had a hand in it), Quick (2014), Crawford (2013 and 15), Thomas

None of them

26 or younger?

Vasilevskiy (x2), Binnington, Murray, Quick (2012)

 

Binnington was not the goalie that played most of the season.

Murray and MAF split one playoffs and Murray played all but two in one set.

Murray did not play much of his winning season.

Vasilevskiy's starts in cup winning seasons were 52 and 42, both shorter seasons. 

 

So, there is a difficult balance between overplaying the starter to get a better seed and tiring them out.

57 starts seems to be the sweet spot, though some have played as much as 69.

 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, looking back at the last 12 cup winners, how many were 26 year olds or younger?

Kuemper, Holtby, MAF (when he had a hand in it), Quick (2014), Crawford (2013 and 15), Thomas

None of them

26 or younger?

Vasilevskiy (x2), Binnington, Murray, Quick (2012)

 

Binnington was not the goalie that played most of the season.

Murray and MAF split one playoffs and Murray played all but two in one set.

Murray did not play much of his winning season.

Vasilevskiy's starts in cup winning seasons were 52 and 42, both shorter seasons. 

 

So, there is a difficult balance between overplaying the starter to get a better seed and tiring them out.

57 starts seems to be the sweet spot, though some have played as much as 69.

 

 

I think there's a typo in your ages it's not quite making sense, but I think what you're getting is something like 5/12 were 26 or younger.

 

I should point out that this is actually pretty high, considering the average starter age in the NHL.

 

I've often felt that goaltending is the one position if any where there is some "seniority" to it and you have to build up a history to get a real chance.    IMHO younger goalies are better than they are credited for.

 

 

Anyway.   Your point about overplaying the goalie.  Totally agree.   

 

The ideal situation is to have two starters, and play them 50/50.  I agree it's a tough balance.  But our method has always been pretty extreme and self defeating.   IMHO the solution is to not only give the coach two good goalies, but two youngish goalies.   That is, if your coach is Sutter.   It's what he's had the most success with.

 

Sorry if I just circled back to  your previous point.   My arguement is rather Sutter specfic, I'm not trying to eliminate 30 year old goalies from the game.   And also I think he's less inclined to overplay younger goalies because they don't have the track record that makes him overplay them.

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

I think there's a typo in your ages it's not quite making sense, but I think what you're getting is something like 5/12 were 26 or younger.

 

 

Don't think so.  Just saying that young goalies aren't always the solution.

Binnington and Murray won as newcomers to the team.

Murray won the next time as a starter or 1A playing 49 games.

Vasilevskiy won in condensed seasons.

 

It's not going to help much having a younger starter playing 60+ games.

So, no to give Sutter a young goalie and go nuts.

It worked once for him.

No better than a 30+ goalie doing the same.

 

50/32 or 52/30 is about all you should be committing to.

Agee doesn't matter.

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Don't think so.  Just saying that young goalies aren't always the solution.

Binnington and Murray won as newcomers to the team.

Murray won the next time as a starter or 1A playing 49 games.

Vasilevskiy won in condensed seasons.

 

It's not going to help much having a younger starter playing 60+ games.

So, no to give Sutter a young goalie and go nuts.

It worked once for him.

No better than a 30+ goalie doing the same.

 

50/32 or 52/30 is about all you should be committing to.

Agee doesn't matter.

 

It worked 3 times for him (it was in), However, yes, only one of those times he overplayed the goalie.

 

Believe you me I am not advocating overplaying any goalies.  I am totally with you on that in principal.

 

 

I think you just have one of the ages wrong in your earlier post.  I haven't had a chance to figure out where the typo is, it just doesn't read right.  but I get the essence of it.

 

**Age matters lol.   But I would agree that it doesn't make overplaying ok

[robrob74]

27 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

It worked 3 times for him (it was in), However, yes, only one of those times he overplayed the goalie.

 

Believe you me I am not advocating overplaying any goalies.  I am totally with you on that in principal.

 

 

I think you just have one of the ages wrong in your earlier post.  I haven't had a chance to figure out where the typo is, it just doesn't read right.  but I get the essence of it.

 

**Age matters lol.   But I would agree that it doesn't make overplaying ok

 

unless you're Martin Brodeur 

[travel_dude]

28 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

I think you just have one of the ages wrong in your earlier post.  I haven't had a chance to figure out where the typo is, it just doesn't read right.  but I get the essence of it.

 

 

Quck calc:

Kuemper over 30

Holtby 29-ish

Quick (in 2013-14) was 27 going on 28

MAF (2016-17) 32

Crawford  (2012-13 and 2014-15) 28-29, 30-31

Thomas 37

 

All over 26.

Does that meet your approval?

 

[jjgallow]

32 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Quck calc:

Kuemper over 30

Holtby 29-ish

Quick (in 2013-14) was 27 going on 28

MAF (2016-17) 32

Crawford  (2012-13 and 2014-15) 28-29, 30-31

Thomas 37

 

All over 26.

Does that meet your approval?

 

 

 

yeah yeah sorry was just the way I read "None of them".  I see what you were after now.

[travel_dude]

Just now, jjgallow said:

 

 

yeah yeah sorry was just the way I read "None of them".  I see what you were after now.

 

Hey, it's fun to discuss.  I should have jumped to a new paragraph.

[JTech780]

Looks like we lost our AHL goalie coach. 

[conundrumed]

Nice boost for Speer. Gets to stay in Cali.

Guess we need a new one.

[Thebrewcrew]

Looks like the Flames will be making a concerted effort to dial back Markstrom's work load. 

 

I like the call to start Vladar tonight. He played very well on the road last year, especially against good teams. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Looks like the Flames will be making a concerted effort to dial back Markstrom's work load. 

 

I like the call to start Vladar tonight. He played very well on the road last year, especially against good teams. 

 

I think it's a move to mess with the Oilers.  Starting their top guy against the guy they feasted on in the playoffs.  The final BOA regular season and game 1 or playoffs had something like 12 goals against in two games.  But the side effect is that the team needs to step up defense to win this and not defer to the goalie to get it done.  Vladar is excellent on HD chances and breakaways.  He doesn't go down early exposing the top half.  And the Oiler have no real book on him.  The plus is that it gives Marky almost a week between starts

[LouCifer]

I like this move. Marky’s got a good hold on most of the NHL but he’s struggled against the Oil. Vladar has shown he can be lights out on any given night against any given team. Win or lose, I like the call here. 

[The_People1]

9 hours ago, LouCifer said:

I like this move. Marky’s got a good hold on most of the NHL but he’s struggled against the Oil. Vladar has shown he can be lights out on any given night against any given team. Win or lose, I like the call here. 

 

Yups.  We all wondered if Vladar should've played against the Oilers in the playoffs.  After tonight's win, maybe Sutter wouldn't hesitate this coming playoffs.  

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yups.  We all wondered if Vladar should've played against the Oilers in the playoffs.  After tonight's win, maybe Sutter wouldn't hesitate this coming playoffs.  

 

To be fair, Marky played lights out against the NHL as a whole.

A grueling 7 game series against Dallas.

Struggled against one team where you knew PP was going to impact the results.

If anything, I would have given him game 2 off to reset.

 

[conundrumed]

 

[conundrumed]

$2.2 per. Tidy piece of business!

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

$2.2 per. Tidy piece of business!

 

Good deal.

Now have a potential starter locked up for 3 years.

He could just take the reins and be the man.

[JTech780]

Interesting to see what that means for Wolf. Do you use him as a potential trade chip? Or do they believe it will still be 2-3 years before he is ready to make the jump?

 

Honestly I could see either be an option. 

[sak22]

53 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Interesting to see what that means for Wolf. Do you use him as a potential trade chip? Or do they believe it will still be 2-3 years before he is ready to make the jump?

 

Honestly I could see either be an option. 

I think there are options, but I don't think a keep or trade decision on Wolf needs to be this year.  If Vladar grows over the next 2 years maybe you can sell him in that final year if a team views him as a starting option.  A lot of options, but more importantly a lot of time to let things play out.  It may only be 2 games but in no way would I stay Wolf's progression is stalling down there.

[flames for life]

7 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I think there are options, but I don't think a keep or trade decision on Wolf needs to be this year.  If Vladar grows over the next 2 years maybe you can sell him in that final year if a team views him as a starting option.  A lot of options, but more importantly a lot of time to let things play out.  It may only be 2 games but in no way would I stay Wolf's progression is stalling down there.

I think it may be easier to think that Vladar will be groomed for starter role with Wolf learning the nhl game as backup.  Markstrom is aging and will be mid 30’s toward the end of his contract.  Vladar is great coverage in case of injury, and Calgary’s goalie depth allows lots of fluidity up and down the team lines.

Vladar himself stated he looked at Markstrom as a friend, but also a mentor and teacher.  Sounds like a great extension for a retiring goalie, when the time comes!!

[cross16]

Flames clearly banking on that 4mill or more raise to the cap. 
 

I like the flexibility it gives you with the depth and time frame to let things sort out. It’s a little higher AAV than I would have ideal liked and if the cap doesn’t go ok by much I won’t like the cap position it leave them with. 

[Thebrewcrew]

Really like the signing.

 

It's hard to find a backup goalie for 2.2 in UFA, not to mention with the upside Vladar has. It's also very tradeable if need be.

 

I'm not worried for Wolf. He will be up when he's ready. There will be injuries in net at some point and he will get a chance. Also worth noting that Corey Crawford played 5 seasons in the AHL and 255 games, Jimmy Howard spent parts of 6 seasons in the AHL. Goalies always take a while to develop. If Wolf needs three seasons with the Wranglers, so-be-it

[LouCifer]

Super stoked about this signing!!! Way to go Brad!!! Woohoo!!!