Goaltending

[conundrumed]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I am concerned that we move on from Vladar too soon.  Has one year left ending as a RFA with arbitration rights.

Same. But also with Wolf's progression.

[JTech780]

Wolf had an amazing year, no doubt, but let's see if he can follow it up with another strong start in the AHL. I am not worried if he has to play another season in the A. He will get more games there than as the backup to Markstrom.

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Same. But also with Wolf's progression.

 

3 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Wolf had an amazing year, no doubt, but let's see if he can follow it up with another strong start in the AHL. I am not worried if he has to play another season in the A. He will get more games there than as the backup to Markstrom.

 

I'm in that boat too.  Landlocked, but in that boat.

Wolf is very young by goalie standards.

As good as he has been, he's not NHL ready IMHO.

He might be the next Saros, but that guy was in his 2nd year when he got the call as a backup.

10-8-3 record.  Not great.

In an emergency situation, it might make sense to start him.

Otherwise, let him dominate this year in the AHL.

There's no shame in that and he will be close to the dev staff.

Assuming that's a good thing.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

I wasn't that impressed with Warner.  Since the team will be in Calgary, they should be able to closely monitor the backup situation this year.  A couple in the pipeline.  Is Sergeev eligible to play in the AHL, being drafted out of US hockey?

 

My understanding of Sergeev is that he is still committed to playing at UCONN in the NCAA next year and has no plans on changing that commitment. 

 

52 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Happy for him, Hope he does well.

The real question is what are we going to do about Wolf? We love prospects exceeding expectations, but are we looking at a traffic jam? How do you balance 3 goalies and you don't want to get rid of any of them?

Vladar has exceeded what we paid. Do we turn it into profit in a trade?

So many questions. Are we just putting Wolf on the shelf in the A?

It's a nice problem to have, but I think it's decision time.

Wolf has hit every achievement he can. We have to keep him moving forward imo.

Else he stagnates due to availability of an NHL spot.

Thoughts?

 

I'd be surprised if much changes as I think this is actually lined up pretty well. Vladar has one more year, where he is dirt cheap, before he is RFA and then Wolf has 1 more year after that at another cheap salary so Flames look well positioned to have affordability at their back up spot which is likely going to be pretty important to them given the construction of their roster. 

 

I would hope they would want Chechelev back in at least the ECHL/AHL fold next year so I would imagine they would look for a 3rd option. Some on an NHL deal that can move up and down and give them some more depth. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

My understanding of Sergeev is that he is still committed to playing at UCONN in the NCAA next year and has no plans on changing that commitment. 

 

Yeah, forgot about that.

[The_People1]

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Happy for him, Hope he does well.

The real question is what are we going to do about Wolf? We love prospects exceeding expectations, but are we looking at a traffic jam? How do you balance 3 goalies and you don't want to get rid of any of them?

Vladar has exceeded what we paid. Do we turn it into profit in a trade?

So many questions. Are we just putting Wolf on the shelf in the A?

It's a nice problem to have, but I think it's decision time.

Wolf has hit every achievement he can. We have to keep him moving forward imo.

Else he stagnates due to availability of an NHL spot.

Thoughts?

 

Trade Markstrom for Chabot.

[Thebrewcrew]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

I wasn't that impressed with Warner.  Since the team will be in Calgary, they should be able to closely monitor the backup situation this year.  A couple in the pipeline.  Is Sergeev eligible to play in the AHL, being drafted out of US hockey?

 

7 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

I believe he was drafted out of Russia, but then had an issue with his contract and ended up playing in the USHL as Calgary was trying to find a spot for him. That being said he can play in the AHL next year, though I would probably start him in the ECHL and see how he progresses from there.

Sergeev is going to play college hockey at UConn for this upcoming season. Been playing in North America for the past three seasons.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

Sergeev is going to play college hockey at UConn for this upcoming season. Been playing in North America for the past three seasons.

 

Yes, Cross reminded me of that.

 

[conundrumed]

On 6/20/2022 at 12:43 PM, JTech780 said:

Wolf had an amazing year, no doubt, but let's see if he can follow it up with another strong start in the AHL. I am not worried if he has to play another season in the A. He will get more games there than as the backup to Markstrom.

If he has another strong start I think we have to get him some reps in the NHL. My concern is that he can plateau in the AHL and we should keep him pushing. I guess we'll see his readiness at camp. But he's done everything so far, why stop him?

Vasilevskiy was 20-21 getting NHL looks and took over. Not saying that's Wolf, I just don't like the potential to stagnate him, rather than drive him harder.

We all know goalies are weird.

Gilroy, California.lol Who knew that's where you find goalies? Garlic Capital of the World.

[travel_dude]

49 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

If he has another strong start I think we have to get him some reps in the NHL. My concern is that he can plateau in the AHL and we should keep him pushing. I guess we'll see his readiness at camp. But he's done everything so far, why stop him?

Vasilevskiy was 20-21 getting NHL looks and took over. Not saying that's Wolf, I just don't like the potential to stagnate him, rather than drive him harder.

We all know goalies are weird.

Gilroy, California.lol Who knew that's where you find goalies? Garlic Capital of the World.

 

He may not be happy about moving from the gangland Stockton to Calgary, but at least he can wear red.

 

To your point, he will get a start or two if there is some roster flexibility or we have an injury.

As happy as he must have been with his AHL rookie season, I imagine he was frustrated.

Having a bad game wreck his numbers.

Not getting a shutout, even when he had one going to the last minutes of play.

Finally getting one in the playoffs.

 

I'm not as concerned about his skill translating to the NHL.

His size is what worries me right now.

He's listed at 156 pounds.

That's Matthew Phillips weight.

As long as we have guys that would put out out of the game if you touched Wolf, then okay.

He needs to bulk up a bit, IMHO.

[jjgallow]

I hear a lot of talk about how Vladar could be the odd man out if Wolf steps up and is given a chance in the NHL.

 

Question...

 

What...if....  Vladar steps things up, Markstrom drops a notch....

 

then...what?

 

Reason I ask is that I can see Vladar, who has steadily improved,  clocking in at around .915 this year, from his .906 last year.  Remember he's still 2 years younger than when we found Kipper.  

 

I can also see Markstrom returning to his more usual .910 (or under).  He ain't getting younger.

 

Everyone seems to be assuming that Markstrom > Vladar is a steady state.

 

So what if it's not, and we have Vladar and Markstrom neck and neck, with Wolf pushing from the AHL?

 

[conundrumed]

Then we'd have a very good problem on our hands. That is something to address when it actually happens.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Then we'd have a very good problem on our hands. That is something to address when it actually happens.

 

[travel_dude]

12 hours ago, jjgallow said:

I hear a lot of talk about how Vladar could be the odd man out if Wolf steps up and is given a chance in the NHL.

 

Question...

 

What...if....  Vladar steps things up, Markstrom drops a notch....

 

then...what?

 

Reason I ask is that I can see Vladar, who has steadily improved,  clocking in at around .915 this year, from his .906 last year.  Remember he's still 2 years younger than when we found Kipper.  

 

I can also see Markstrom returning to his more usual .910 (or under).  He ain't getting younger.

 

Everyone seems to be assuming that Markstrom > Vladar is a steady state.

 

So what if it's not, and we have Vladar and Markstrom neck and neck, with Wolf pushing from the AHL?

 

 

How did you come to the conclusion his usual is 910 or worse?  Is that based on one season where he posted a 904?  Had a concussion didn't he.  Maybe instead of worrying about the decline of a 32 year old, worry about lessening his starts to the point we aren't burning him out.  

 

Offhand, I can think of 4 other goalies aged 32 or older that put up number similat to him.

[conundrumed]

16 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Without question.

I want it all, and I want it now.lol

[jjgallow]

34 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

How did you come to the conclusion his usual is 910 or worse?  Is that based on one season where he posted a 904?  Had a concussion didn't he.  Maybe instead of worrying about the decline of a 32 year old, worry about lessening his starts to the point we aren't burning him out.  

 

Offhand, I can think of 4 other goalies aged 32 or older that put up number similat to him.

 

Thank you for backing me up on him being too old.  I didn't want to say it all by myself, you know how people get.

 

Not directly answering your question but noteworthy:   He was still fully in the AHL at Vladar's age, and didn't have a decent NHL season until he was 3 years older than Vladar is now.    So there's some perspective on why I haven't given up on Vladar yet.     Annoys me when I read various articles about Vladar being washed up or it being his last season here.   Wouldn't surprise me but that doesn't make it wise.

 

To answer your question directly, my mistake.  His average isn't .910.  It's .911.  I was way off.

   Specifically where I got that info is any stats tracking site for hockey in the world.

 

   With regards to the "or worse" part, I'm talking about his professional playoff record.

 

 

So..

 

With regards to lessening his starts, that's kind of what I was getting at.   And yes this organization bascally wasted Kipper's prime not figuring this out and continues to do so in this "new era".    Did it get us a better playoff position?   Probably.   Did it matter?  With how we played against Dallas, no.

 

Totally with you on lessening the starts.   And yes, this is basically a key component to a real cup run.   Although imho we're a season too late for that.

[conundrumed]

The fun part is having competent G after sooo long of none.

Wolf, Sergeev, Chechelev in the pipeline.

We're sitting pretty solid at G. If the goal is to be elite all over the ice, prepare to be sorely disappointed.

Finding stats to support the argument that Vladar good/Markstrom bad is far from being substantiated.

Markstrom was a very worthy Vezina finalist last year.

It really was a year of, "who is our MVP"? between Markstrom and JG.

Ironically, Tanev's injury exposed us, big time. Not ironically, we go out and get Weegar, and a 24 yr old Meloche, who may grow into a Tanev. Particularly when Tanev's your new teacher. But Tanev goes down again, they're putting pieces in place so it's not such a huge drop. Why did Edmonton keep scoring from where Tanev usually is? Totally exposed his absence. That affects Markstrom too. You know how it will be played, and then you don't. 

[phoenix66]

11 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

The fun part is having competent G after sooo long of none.

Wolf, Sergeev, Chechelev in the pipeline.

We're sitting pretty solid at G. If the goal is to be elite all over the ice, prepare to be sorely disappointed.

Finding stats to support the argument that Vladar good/Markstrom bad is far from being substantiated.

Markstrom was a very worthy Vezina finalist last year.

It really was a year of, "who is our MVP"? between Markstrom and JG.

Ironically, Tanev's injury exposed us, big time. Not ironically, we go out and get Weegar, and a 24 yr old Meloche, who may grow into a Tanev. Particularly when Tanev's your new teacher. But Tanev goes down again, they're putting pieces in place so it's not such a huge drop. Why did Edmonton keep scoring from where Tanev usually is? Totally exposed his absence. That affects Markstrom too. You know how it will be played, and then you don't. 

I'm with you on the Tanev part.. hopefully the add of Weegar can improve that, we really didn't have a proper plan in place that allowed for the absence of him.. add to that we've only had them for 2 years ..Markstrom and Tanev have known each other's styles for way longer than that so no surprise it affected Markstrom

 

In terms of the goalies , I get the sense they don't see Vladar as a short term thing.. Sutter wasn't exactly cherry picking his starts . He had some good games against some top teams and showed well .. if Vladar wants to steal the job Sutter doesn't care about paychecks 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

Not directly answering your question but noteworthy:   He was still fully in the AHL at Vladar's age, and didn't have a decent NHL season until he was 3 years older than Vladar is now.    So there's some perspective on why I haven't given up on Vladar yet.     Annoys me when I read various articles about Vladar being washed up or it being his last season here.   Wouldn't surprise me but that doesn't make it wise.

 

 

Ahh, the AHL argument.  ON two teams in the NHL but played in the AHL.  Wasn't he the starter in FLA when he was 22?  You know the lockout year.  Vladar made his backup debut (more than just 5 games) as a 24 year old.  Markstrom went to VAN for Luongo and was depth begind the great Eddie Lack and Miller.  Became the full backup at 26.

 

So, your observations are clouded a bit.  

 

Suffice to say that we have two capable NHL goalies right now.  Chances are both have above average starter numbers this year.  

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Ahh, the AHL argument.  ON two teams in the NHL but played in the AHL.  Wasn't he the starter in FLA when he was 22?  You know the lockout year.  Vladar made his backup debut (more than just 5 games) as a 24 year old.  Markstrom went to VAN for Luongo and was depth begind the great Eddie Lack and Miller.  Became the full backup at 26.

 

So, your observations are clouded a bit.  

 

Suffice to say that we have two capable NHL goalies right now.  Chances are both have above average starter numbers this year.  

 

The intent wasn't really to bash Markstrom to the point that he needed defending, more to point out that we have some real potential in Vladar, and it would be silly to give up on him at this stage.   If he tanks this year that's different, but a little early for some of the talk I've seen.

 

Anyway I have to bash Markstrom to refute you and I'm just not feeling in the mood for that right now.

 

Again like I said, Markstrom was an AHL goaltender at 24, emerging from that around 26, wasn't trying to do a full lifetime assessment, we all know Markstrom was a slightly more highly rated prospect and Vladar slightly more a late bloomer, doesn't matter, isn't relevant to the fact that Vladar at 24 is doing quite well.   I don't think we should count him out.   As a late bloomer yes he needs to put up this year, but until he fails to do that I think there's a lot of potential.

 

I also am looking forward to seeing what Wolf does in the odd Flames game and...you never know...potentially more.

 

 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

Sutter wasn't exactly cherry picking his starts .

And he wasn't exactly easy on him in the media scrums.

That tells me that Vladar is going to be good. Typical Daryl stuff. Deflect everything away from young players. He's very good at it.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

The intent wasn't really to bash Markstrom to the point that he needed defending, more to point out that we have some real potential in Vladar, and it would be silly to give up on him at this stage.   If he tanks this year that's different, but a little early for some of the talk I've seen.

 

Anyway I have to bash Markstrom to refute you and I'm just not feeling in the mood for that right now.

 

Again like I said, Markstrom was an AHL goaltender at 24, emerging from that around 26, wasn't trying to do a full lifetime assessment, we all know Markstrom was a slightly more highly rated prospect and Vladar slightly more a late bloomer, doesn't matter, isn't relevant to the fact that Vladar at 24 is doing quite well.   I don't think we should count him out.   As a late bloomer yes he needs to put up this year, but until he fails to do that I think there's a lot of potential.

 

I also am looking forward to seeing what Wolf does in the odd Flames game and...you never know...potentially more.

 

 

 

So, you are willing to make the statement:

Not directly answering your question but noteworthy:   He was still fully in the AHL at Vladar's age, and didn't have a decent NHL season until he was 3 years older than Vladar is now.    So there's some perspective on why I haven't given up on Vladar yet.     Annoys me when I read various articles about Vladar being washed up or it being his last season here.   Wouldn't surprise me but that doesn't make it wise.

 

Call him an AHL goalie at age 24, yet he was a 1a/1b goalie in the lockout year.  Traded to a team deep with goaltending.  No wonder he took another year in the AHL.  Was in NHL at age 25, not 3 years older than Vladar.

 

Your original premise was correct that Vladar is a good goalie prospect and potential starter at some point.  But I noticed that you said nothing about Markstrom in this thread this season until you bring up your impresion that Marky takes a step back.  I think you can pump up Vladar without suggesting Markstrom couldn't do well until much older.

 

Anyway, argue about it, don't argue about it.  Doesn't really matter.  If you are right this season, you will let everyone know.  If you are wrong you might say something positive after the playoffs.

[jjgallow]

30 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, you are willing to make the statement:

Not directly answering your question but noteworthy:   He was still fully in the AHL at Vladar's age, and didn't have a decent NHL season until he was 3 years older than Vladar is now.    So there's some perspective on why I haven't given up on Vladar yet.     Annoys me when I read various articles about Vladar being washed up or it being his last season here.   Wouldn't surprise me but that doesn't make it wise.

 

Call him an AHL goalie at age 24, yet he was a 1a/1b goalie in the lockout year.  Traded to a team deep with goaltending.  No wonder he took another year in the AHL.  Was in NHL at age 25, not 3 years older than Vladar.

 

Your original premise was correct that Vladar is a good goalie prospect and potential starter at some point.  But I noticed that you said nothing about Markstrom in this thread this season until you bring up your impresion that Marky takes a step back.  I think you can pump up Vladar without suggesting Markstrom couldn't do well until much older.

 

Anyway, argue about it, don't argue about it.  Doesn't really matter.  If you are right this season, you will let everyone know.  If you are wrong you might say something positive after the playoffs.

 

 

That's not fair, I said lots about Markstrom after his playoff performance...

 

..

 

.

 

I never meant to leave him out lol

 

Markstrom was an AHL goalie at 24, yes, but that wasn't intended to be an insult, it was meant to provide some perspective on Vladar who very much has starter potential with some incremental improvements. 

 

Vladar also had a tough time getting games in with Markstrom having a career year,  so they had that in common too at 24.  It wasn't unique to anyone.

 

I am saving "I told you so" for when Ortio makes his comeback 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

On 7/31/2022 at 4:20 PM, jjgallow said:

 

 

That's not fair, I said lots about Markstrom after his playoff performance...

 

..

 

.

 

I never meant to leave him out lol

 

Markstrom was an AHL goalie at 24, yes, but that wasn't intended to be an insult, it was meant to provide some perspective on Vladar who very much has starter potential with some incremental improvements. 

 

Vladar also had a tough time getting games in with Markstrom having a career year,  so they had that in common too at 24.  It wasn't unique to anyone.

 

I am saving "I told you so" for when Ortio makes his comeback 

As much as arguing which goalie was where at what age means as much as Eric Francis in a media scrum, the bolded is what needs to be addressed.........but wont. Flames goaltending history is filled with stories of feast or famine, this being a feast time has the organization repeating the IMHO mistakes of the past.  Not only does the team have a veznia worthy starter but also a seemingly very competent backup who could handle a bigger workload.  Match that with a very promising prospect pool and the organization has NEVER been in this position.

 

I fully believe alot of Markys playoff performance was fatigue driven, this seems like an easy fix but sadly I dont have the faith that change is coming in that regard.  That being said, I realize almost every goalie feels they can play better under a heavy workload but the performance falloff and potential injury risk is not worth it.

 

 

[travel_dude]

24 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

As much as arguing which goalie was where at what age means as much as Eric Francis in a media scrum, the bolded is what needs to be addressed.........but wont. Flames goaltending history is filled with stories of feast or famine, this being a feast time has the organization repeating the IMHO mistakes of the past.  Not only does the team have a veznia worthy starter but also a seemingly very competent backup who could handle a bigger workload.  Match that with a very promising prospect pool and the organization has NEVER been in this position.

 

I fully believe alot of Markys playoff performance was fatigue driven, this seems like an easy fix but sadly I dont have the faith that change is coming in that regard.  That being said, I realize almost every goalie feels they can play better under a heavy workload but the performance falloff and potential injury risk is not worth it.

 

 

 

I don't think you will find many that will dispute the notion of starting Vladar more.

Sutter has a rendency on being hard on young guys when they make mistakes.

He rarely calls them out in the media.

But he remembers.

Wasn't impressed with DV coming in for the VAN game and getting beat up.

"He's the backup, supposed to be ready to come in".

I really only think that came up because the press seemed to be harping on Marky.

And DV came in cold and got rocked.

 

TBH, I just think it was a bit of lack of trust.  

Vladar had to do B2B's with Marky out and didn't look great.

Or so it seemed Sutter thought.

"He has to make that save,".

 

So, as much as we want him to get more starts and run with it, Sutter is standing there.

We need the W.  You are the backup.

Can you deliver?