GM Craig Conroy

[cross16]

I just don't think you hit home runs at the TDL anymore because teams are just not moving top prospects. I think if you are looking for reasons to dislike this move it probably comes back to misplaced expectations. 

 

I've said all along I expected the Horvat return for LIndholm and I would say they got a bit better than that. The first Van got was more valuable but Conroy's quantity approach I think makes up for it IMO. 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

I just don't think you hit home runs at the TDL anymore because teams are just not moving top prospects. I think if you are looking for reasons to dislike this move it probably comes back to misplaced expectations. 

 

I've said all along I expected the Horvat return for LIndholm and I would say they got a bit better than that. The first Van got was more valuable but Conroy's quantity approach I think makes up for it IMO. 

 

Right and so, did Conroy wait too long?

 

In my opinion, he should've blown it up at the end of last season.  I know hindsight is 20/20 and maybe we had to go through the motions for ownership to realize this wasn't a good team.  In any event, the results were so predictable.  Anyone could've seen it coming.

 

A wasted year.  This season could've been what next season would be.  And we would be one year earlier into the end of the rebuild.  But now we just getting started.

 

In terms of Lindholm specifically, he was worth more in the summer than he was now.

[phoenix66]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Right and so, did Conroy wait too long?

 

In my opinion, he should've blown it up at the end of last season.  I know hindsight is 20/20 and maybe we had to go through the motions for ownership to realize this wasn't a good team.  In any event, the results were so predictable.  Anyone could've seen it coming.

 

A wasted year.  This season could've been what next season would be.  And we would be one year earlier into the end of the rebuild.  But now we just getting started.

 

In terms of Lindholm specifically, he was worth more in the summer than he was now.

I find it's all a catch 22... But safe to say if he had gotten an offer that blew him away earlier he'd have taken it..as well he was a new gm he was likely being tested with anvils ..

 

Top teams will give up 1st rounders .. yes they are later picks but they are also more willing to give up prospects and players useful to a "retooling" team like Calgary.. 

 

Offseason up to the draft it's all about draft picks and salary dumping .. a lottery team like Anaheim, Chicago etc..arent moving their first rounder for a 28 yr old ufa ..or even a 27 yr old with a year left ..and they likely have better prospects but those are valuable too .. 

 

 

I was a proponent of doing it early just for the simple reason is what if they were on a heater holding a playoff spot would they have the desire to do what needed to be done..but luckily that's not the case here .. 

 

I believe he's been holding firm on his asking prices and in this case Vancouver is the one that finally cracked and met it 

[robrob74]

28 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Right and so, did Conroy wait too long?

 

In my opinion, he should've blown it up at the end of last season.  I know hindsight is 20/20 and maybe we had to go through the motions for ownership to realize this wasn't a good team.  In any event, the results were so predictable.  Anyone could've seen it coming.

 

A wasted year.  This season could've been what next season would be.  And we would be one year earlier into the end of the rebuild.  But now we just getting started.

 

In terms of Lindholm specifically, he was worth more in the summer than he was now.

 

The writing was on the wall once Gaudreau and Tkachuk left, and then we sent Monahan for Kadri to try remain competitive. I get you can't know Huberdeau wasn't going to fit, but the trade off of Monahan for Kadri is a big pay and could hurt the organization for a long time. That still remains to be seen, but the Flames deserve it if it becomes the worst case scenario. 

[sak22]

31 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Right and so, did Conroy wait too long?

 

In my opinion, he should've blown it up at the end of last season.  I know hindsight is 20/20 and maybe we had to go through the motions for ownership to realize this wasn't a good team.  In any event, the results were so predictable.  Anyone could've seen it coming.

 

A wasted year.  This season could've been what next season would be.  And we would be one year earlier into the end of the rebuild.  But now we just getting started.

 

In terms of Lindholm specifically, he was worth more in the summer than he was now.

Was he?  I don't know, I'd take what the Flames got over what the Sens got for Debrincat, I like this return more than the Dubois return, Karlsson wasn't a great return, we were underwhelmed at the time with the Toffoli trade.  Hard to know if there were better moves in the summer when we don't know what existed but have our minds clouded with our own thoughts.

[kehatch]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

I just don't think you hit home runs at the TDL anymore because teams are just not moving top prospects. I think if you are looking for reasons to dislike this move it probably comes back to misplaced expectations. 

 

I've said all along I expected the Horvat return for LIndholm and I would say they got a bit better than that. The first Van got was more valuable but Conroy's quantity approach I think makes up for it IMO. 

 

I have been pretty clear in my opinion that Conroy waited to long to trade his best pieces. If he traded Lindholm in the summer we would likely have received more value and not be facing another middle of the road draft pick. 

 

That said, I think the return is decent. It's just not as much as you would like when trading your top center. Especially one that was recently a 30 goal scorer and Selke finalist. 

[robrob74]

18 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

I have been pretty clear in my opinion that Conroy waited to long to trade his best pieces. If he traded Lindholm in the summer we would likely have received more value and not be facing another middle of the road draft pick. 

 

That said, I think the return is decent. It's just not as much as you would like when trading your top center. Especially one that was recently a 30 goal scorer and Selke finalist. 

 

Ya, and the Flames still had the ability to retain salary for other teams to add to the return, and Lindholm should have had higher marketability last offseason.

[sak22]

3 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

I have been pretty clear in my opinion that Conroy waited to long to trade his best pieces. If he traded Lindholm in the summer we would likely have received more value and not be facing another middle of the road draft pick. 

 

That said, I think the return is decent. It's just not as much as you would like when trading your top center. Especially one that was recently a 30 goal scorer and Selke finalist. 

Like what?  Please give some proof.  I didn't notice a huge summer of activity, the Debrincat trade was pretty underwhelming for the Sens, Dubois didn't provide a ton of futures for the Jets.  Again we are going off the crap people believed like Columbus would pay up their Hash Rate to get Lindholm to pair with Johnny, did they even offer anything?  If they were desperate for a C, why not a plan B.  The hockey world didn't revolve around the Flames, if teams were willing to pay a premium for a player, they would've moved on to another target, nobody did but you gain traction once the season starts because teams know their shortcomings, example Colorado tried going the cheap route by taking Johanson from the Preds, it hasn't worked and thus they became interested during the season.  But I think teams will always look for the low cost solutions in the offseason and will get more aggressive once the season starts and you see where your team stacks against the competition. 

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

Like what?  Please give some proof.  I didn't notice a huge summer of activity, the Debrincat trade was pretty underwhelming for the Sens, Dubois didn't provide a ton of futures for the Jets.  Again we are going off the crap people believed like Columbus would pay up their Hash Rate to get Lindholm to pair with Johnny, did they even offer anything?  If they were desperate for a C, why not a plan B.  The hockey world didn't revolve around the Flames, if teams were willing to pay a premium for a player, they would've moved on to another target, nobody did but you gain traction once the season starts because teams know their shortcomings, example Colorado tried going the cheap route by taking Johanson from the Preds, it hasn't worked and thus they became interested during the season.  But I think teams will always look for the low cost solutions in the offseason and will get more aggressive once the season starts and you see where your team stacks against the competition. 

 

Both guys were pending RFAs with their teams backed into a corner. They still got comparable returns. Lindholm was a 27 year old C a year removed from a 42 goal selke caliber season, and he was on one of the best contracts in the NHL. The Flames had the option to retain salary increasing his value even further. 

 

I get the market was tight due to cap constraints. But in this case that should have increased Lindholms value as he was a top 6 C available for 3m in cap space. Conroy was trying to sign him which is why he didn't trade him. 

 

Again, the return was fine. It just wasn't the home run you hope it is when trading your top C. 

[cross16]

On 2/1/2024 at 4:55 PM, kehatch said:

 

Both guys were pending RFAs with their teams backed into a corner. They still got comparable returns. Lindholm was a 27 year old C a year removed from a 42 goal selke caliber season, and he was on one of the best contracts in the NHL. The Flames had the option to retain salary increasing his value even further. 

 

I get the market was tight due to cap constraints. But in this case that should have increased Lindholms value as he was a top 6 C available for 3m in cap space. Conroy was trying to sign him which is why he didn't trade him. 

 

Again, the return was fine. It just wasn't the home run you hope it is when trading your top C. 

I don’t get the argument behind why he could have hit a home run in the summer. It sounds like they had more suitors after him now than in the summer and the Canucks sure wouldn’t have been interested in the summer. I don't think it’s fair to assume he nets more in the summer. 
 

yes the flames were trying to sign him but I don’t think that means if another teams GM was making a big pitch Conroy would have said no. 

and for the same reasons you suggest he had more value are the same why it made sense for the flames to make a push to retain him. 
 

if the flames wanted to hit a home run with this they needed to move him in 2022. 

[sak22]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

 

Both guys were pending RFAs with their teams backed into a corner. They still got comparable returns. Lindholm was a 27 year old C a year removed from a 42 goal selke caliber season, and he was on one of the best contracts in the NHL. The Flames had the option to retain salary increasing his value even further. 

 

I get the market was tight due to cap constraints. But in this case that should have increased Lindholms value as he was a top 6 C available for 3m in cap space. Conroy was trying to sign him which is why he didn't trade him. 

 

Again, the return was fine. It just wasn't the home run you hope it is when trading your top C. 

They were RFA's but a year away, they had the luxury of working with the team to find a team they were going to sign long term, I don't think Lindholm had ever hinted to wanting to go one place or another he just seemed to want to get paid and the returns aren't really comparable.  Ottawa got a similar type of player in Kubalik, a D level prospect a late 1st and a 4th.  Winnipeg got one older player, one player slightly younger, a 22 year old trending bust and a 2nd, the only homerun there is getting rid of Dubois and letting someone else pay him.  Kuzmenko was less than a year removed from 74 points and was a cap dump, that is the reality of the hard cap is the past becomes irrelevant very fast. 

 

If your trying to sell me Lindholm last summer I'm not pushing in all my chips on a guy with a 20 point decline, eating salary does nothing to me because I still have to look to signing him for the back 9 of his career, if I'm unloading some of my best cheap assets I need more than 1 year.  That's a summer GM mindset, sure maybe you can lure Tampa with retained salary, but what do they even have left to offer. 

 

I just don't see many homeruns these days, its just like MLB before the Babe.

[travel_dude]

So, from a GM perspective, Connie has done a few things:

- claimed Greer

- waived and lost Ruzicka

- traded Lindholm for a lot of pieces, including 2 picks in 2024

- traded Toffoli for a good, younger player and a 3rd (Suniev - doing well UMass-Amherst)

- signed Sharky to a 3 year deal

- traded Zadorov for a 3rd in 2026

 

I may have missed some good or bad things, but this was the main things I think of.

The Lindholm trade should suggest that he trades some of the remaining UFA's.

How he fills the holes on the roster is another thing I will pay attention to.

It's not Sutter calling the shots.

 

[The_Tribal Chief]

i like thought how Conroy Trades He Gets the Most Value out of the player he is trading and for a rookie Gm that is pretty decent imo

[phoenix66]

On 2/1/2024 at 4:55 PM, kehatch said:

 

Both guys were pending RFAs with their teams backed into a corner. They still got comparable returns. Lindholm was a 27 year old C a year removed from a 42 goal selke caliber season, and he was on one of the best contracts in the NHL. The Flames had the option to retain salary increasing his value even further. 

 

I get the market was tight due to cap constraints. But in this case that should have increased Lindholms value as he was a top 6 C available for 3m in cap space. Conroy was trying to sign him which is why he didn't trade him. 

 

Again, the return was fine. It just wasn't the home run you hope it is when trading your top C. 

It's easy to say he should have done it then or any time.. but if we look at what we know ..

.. Conroy knew at the start of the season Lindholm wasn't going to be resigned 

- it was a foregone conclusion hanifin wanted out and wanted to play for an American team (this stance appears to have since changed )

- Backlund needed to be sold on staying..

 

 

This makes it was safe to say Connie's phone was always on and he was always listening.. it's also very clear he has a price tag on all these players and hes stubborn about moving on it ..

 

Safe to summarize .. it any team had a better offer or met his price tag these players would have been moved already.. so to say he missed the boat is just speculative..but the facts would say the offers we all think should have been there just weren't 

 

It's on record bt was trying to lowball Conroy this year for both zadorov and tanev..(eating half salary on both..the same mid prospects and another late first ) ..kudos on Conny for sticking to his guns ..

The Bruins were hot for Lindy but didn't have the means to match what Vancouver gave 

Just before the deal went down he went back to every interested tesm.and gave them one last chance to beat it ...  He's not scared to trade within the division so every argument for not getting the best deal available is gone 

[cberg]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:58 PM, kehatch said:

 

I have been pretty clear in my opinion that Conroy waited to long to trade his best pieces. If he traded Lindholm in the summer we would likely have received more value and not be facing another middle of the road draft pick. 

 

That said, I think the return is decent. It's just not as much as you would like when trading your top center. Especially one that was recently a 30 goal scorer and Selke finalist. 

Time will tell how we did, but just like the Sharangovich trade we might be massively surprised by the time the season ends or a year goes by... This trade could be even great JUST for Kuzmenko, if he meshes with Huberdeau, the PP comes to life and Kuzmenko re-signs...  If we end up signing, both the D prospects and they become NHLers, possibly elite for Bruzkewski, and get NHLers for both picks, this would not only be a massive Flames win but could be transformational.  That would be long odds, but the bottom line is Lindholm wasn't re-signed, and unless you were happy with the Gaudreau scenario, it's a "win" any way you look at it.  Let's get 3-4 more trades down in the next month and then I'll be very happy.

[jjgallow]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:58 PM, kehatch said:

 

I have been pretty clear in my opinion that Conroy waited to long to trade his best pieces. If he traded Lindholm in the summer we would likely have received more value and not be facing another middle of the road draft pick. 

 

That said, I think the return is decent. It's just not as much as you would like when trading your top center. Especially one that was recently a 30 goal scorer and Selke finalist. 

 

Ultimately you're right, and when Conroy was first hired I gave it the "wait and see" allowance.   When we approached the start of the season I got a bit concerned.   When asset values started dropping it was "here we go again".

 

But, if we zoom out, Imho we are like 6-8 years too late to trade pieces.   It's a problem that preceded Conroy, and a problem he most certainly inherited.

 

What we can say, is that at least he got the job done.  And the return was pretty great considering Lindholm's struggles.    Many here felt it would be impossible for it to ever happen in this organization.   For that, I give him full marks.

[cross16]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:13 PM, The_People1 said:

 

Right and so, did Conroy wait too long?

 

In my opinion, he should've blown it up at the end of last season.  I know hindsight is 20/20 and maybe we had to go through the motions for ownership to realize this wasn't a good team.  In any event, the results were so predictable.  Anyone could've seen it coming.

 

A wasted year.  This season could've been what next season would be.  And we would be one year earlier into the end of the rebuild.  But now we just getting started.

 

In terms of Lindholm specifically, he was worth more in the summer than he was now.

 

If by this you mean summer of 2022 i would agree. I don't think his value has changed much since last summer, and likely at all. 

 

And I don't see how trading Lindholm in the summer would have altered their current standings much given how poorly he's played. 

[MP5029]

Gotta say Conroy is trending into a GM much like Sackic and Yzerman 

[LouCifer]

5 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Gotta say Conroy is trending into a GM much like Sackic and Yzerman 

Kent Hughes is also writing the book on winning trades and asset management… I hope Conroy is trending and taking notes there as well. 

[travel_dude]

6 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Gotta say Conroy is trending into a GM much like Sackic and Yzerman 

 

1 hour ago, LouCifer said:

Kent Hughes is also writing the book on winning trades and asset management… I hope Conroy is trending and taking notes there as well. 

 

I am reserving judgement until after the Hanifin and Tanev situations are concluded.

He's gotten value for two players that were needing deals.

He's got two more that are immediate YELLOW ALERT.

Kylington is too soon to worry about but the plan needs to be ready come TDL.

Can't let him walk.  He's a low mileage player with years left.

 

[Thebrewcrew]

6 hours ago, LouCifer said:

Kent Hughes is also writing the book on winning trades and asset management… I hope Conroy is trending and taking notes there as well. 

I've been impressed with his work thus far.

 

He turned Toffoli, Zadorov and Lindholm into nine assets. 

 

It appears that he's been a shrewd negotiator. Really conscious of term and dollars with Lindholm and Toffoli, in particular.

[jjgallow]

On 2/11/2024 at 5:47 AM, MP5029 said:

Gotta say Conroy is trending into a GM much like Sackic and Yzerman 

 

I'll also reserve judgement along with @travel_dude.   But he's impressed me so far.

 

Yeah.  If it were me, i would have blown it up as soon as I had the ability to do so.  lol.  And so would have many regulars on here.

 

But, he has waited for the right deals and shown patience and excellent negotiation skills.    In the long run, that's what you want.    That's how you build great teams and keep them great.

 

At the end of the day, none of us know when he had the ability to make his moves.   All we know, is that no other previous recent GM had that ability, and somehow he was able to do it.   So, he has succeeded where past GMs have failed.

 

The draft:  Last year was not great imho.   It's too early to call, I know, but Honzek needs to jump a whole level for it to make sense.     Looking at it now, maybe the only highlight I am seeing is Yegorev, who has jumped a level since being drafted.     He might need his own thread soon if he keeps it up.

 

I need to see two things:   His moves into the trade deadline, and this summer's draft.

 

I'll reserve my judgement potentially up until the draft, if the trade deadline goes well.

[cross16]

14 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I've been impressed with his work thus far.

 

He turned Toffoli, Zadorov and Lindholm into nine assets. 

 

It appears that he's been a shrewd negotiator. Really conscious of term and dollars with Lindholm and Toffoli, in particular.

 

 

Toffoli yes but I think, this may change depending on our perspective, he got lucky with Lindholm. From everything I have heard and be let to believe they put a huge contract on the table for him one that was an overpay IMO. Lindholm chose he didn't want to be here and they moved on. 

 

Not to say that means Conroy hasn't done well, just that I don't give him credit for the Lindholm decision as that one was made for him. 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

 

Toffoli yes but I think, this may change depending on our perspective, he got lucky with Lindholm. From everything I have heard and be let to believe they put a huge contract on the table for him one that was an overpay IMO. Lindholm chose he didn't want to be here and they moved on. 

 

Not to say that means Conroy hasn't done well, just that I don't give him credit for the Lindholm decision as that one was made for him. 

 

 

You could give him credit for the trade. I agree that he wanted to sign him, as it was probably an ownership directive, to stay competitive. But he got decent deals in both the Toffoli and Lindholm deals. Albeit, I was hoping for more in the Toffoli deal. 

 

Maybe trades will be his strength, but who knows about what he does with re-signs? I think those and the draft will be what is key to keeping the team competitive. I hope he continues with the re-sign/want to be here (but lose the overpay, as I think the Flames are typically treat their players well), and trade out ones that don't. 

[cross16]

2 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

You could give him credit for the trade. I agree that he wanted to sign him, as it was probably an ownership directive, to stay competitive. But he got decent deals in both the Toffoli and Lindholm deals. Albeit, I was hoping for more in the Toffoli deal. 

 

Maybe trades will be his strength, but who knows about what he does with re-signs? I think those and the draft will be what is key to keeping the team competitive. I hope he continues with the re-sign/want to be here (but lose the overpay, as I think the Flames are typically treat their players well), and trade out ones that don't. 

 

He did a solid trade I agree. As I said it wasn't meant as a criticism or critique just stating i'm not sure it's fair to give him credit for sticking to a price on Lindholm when Lindholm would be here (and on a pricy contract) if he had of wanted to be. 

 

As i've said for a while I think Conroy is off to a solid start. Biggest strength being he hasn't panicked and he has stuck with his convictions of what he feels his players are worth. I like that trait. 

 

Just trying to be fair in the analysis.