GM Craig Conroy

[Thebrewcrew]

9 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

 

Toffoli yes but I think, this may change depending on our perspective, he got lucky with Lindholm. From everything I have heard and be let to believe they put a huge contract on the table for him one that was an overpay IMO. Lindholm chose he didn't want to be here and they moved on. 

 

Not to say that means Conroy hasn't done well, just that I don't give him credit for the Lindholm decision as that one was made for him. 

That's fair.

 

With Lindholm, I think the Flames were conscious on dollars. Friedman says they were at least 1m apart. Even at 64m, the Flames likely dodged a bullet. At least, Conroy dug his heels in and didn't go to 72m. 

[phoenix66]

Good article ..sums up what we all figured ..no tank happening , retool.on the fly.

Make sense the bigger deals he wants a player that plays now ...a prospect or 2 and futures ...

 

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Good article ..sums up what we all figured ..no tank happening , retool.on the fly.

Make sense the bigger deals he wants a player that plays now ...a prospect or 2 and futures ...

 

Well not in all cases will we get roster players like Kuz coming back.

We will likely be trading 2 D in the next couple of weeks.

You can't really trade a Tanev for a yonger Tanev.

You can perhaps trade a D for a C or a winger.

Maybe at Zary stage if you are lucky.

I doubt we see anyone coming back older than 25, unless it's a cap dump.

In which case we get an asset for taking it.

[redfire11]

5 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Good article ..sums up what we all figured ..no tank happening , retool.on the fly.

Make sense the bigger deals he wants a player that plays now ...a prospect or 2 and futures ...

 

 

 

 

When the goal is Mediocrity then tanking is out of the question.

[cross16]

Think the flames can make a good team out of what they have and what they can acquire. 

 

can they become a contender? Im pretty skeptical. Going to have to get real lucky in the draft. 

[robrob74]

41 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Think the flames can make a good team out of what they have and what they can acquire. 

 

can they become a contender? Im pretty skeptical. Going to have to get real lucky in the draft. 

 

not that other teams are giving up "Iginla's" to shoot for a cup now, but it'll take sacrifice, more on the Flames side to acquire the level of prospect that can make that happen. It's why it's so hard to do. 
 

I do wonder if building through the draft to be solid in every position can help the team be really good, instead of middling. I'm thinking, no holes, but no elite talent. With that though, the holes would be true #1D/C's.

[phoenix66]

8 hours ago, redfire11 said:

When the goal is Mediocrity then tanking is out of the question.

I know it's been been to death but tanking is a crapshoot ... You can win the lottery and end up up with Yakupov.. or be totally brutal and lose out on McDavid ..so much is out of a teams control..  but building the right culture is controllable..

Players like Getzlaf and others  were mid to late round picks .. it comes down to drafting and scouting .. 

 

The very fact they even are entertaining the idea of moving Markstrom shows the mentality has shifted away from the one that saw us hold an Iggy for way too long.. 

BT likey would have given Lindholm the extra mill or whatever it is he wanted to get him to stay here .. Conroy values the desire to be here over the paycheck .. 

Culture shift... He has the right idea 

[sak22]

I still don't think tanking is often an organizational strategy for most teams no matter what people suggest, at least most of the teams who've successfully risen from the bottom up to the top.  Personally I don't mind hearing the GM say losing is never the goal.  At the same time, I don't think we will see the team make midseason moves to avoid finishing in the bottom next year.   I do believe cultures of losing do exist and are extremely difficult to break.

[cberg]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

I know it's been been to death but tanking is a crapshoot ... You can win the lottery and end up up with Yakupov.. or be totally brutal and lose out on McDavid ..so much is out of a teams control..  but building the right culture is controllable..

Players like Getzlaf and others  were mid to late round picks .. it comes down to drafting and scouting .. 

 

The very fact they even are entertaining the idea of moving Markstrom shows the mentality has shifted away from the one that saw us hold an Iggy for way too long.. 

BT likey would have given Lindholm the extra mill or whatever it is he wanted to get him to stay here .. Conroy values the desire to be here over the paycheck .. 

Culture shift... He has the right idea 

Agree with the tanking comment, because of the lottery it is still luck.  The ONLY way to fully control your rebuild and "guarantee" success is to be exceptional at drafting and development, and finding gems that other teams are overlooking.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

3 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

I know it's been been to death but tanking is a crapshoot ... You can win the lottery and end up up with Yakupov.. or be totally brutal and lose out on McDavid ..so much is out of a teams control..  but building the right culture is controllable..

Players like Getzlaf and others  were mid to late round picks .. it comes down to drafting and scouting .. 

 

The very fact they even are entertaining the idea of moving Markstrom shows the mentality has shifted away from the one that saw us hold an Iggy for way too long.. 

BT likey would have given Lindholm the extra mill or whatever it is he wanted to get him to stay here .. Conroy values the desire to be here over the paycheck .. 

Culture shift... He has the right idea 

That is the shift that needed to happen. Going back to Conroys statement pre season and by Colemans recent quote the environment in the lockerroom starts with filling it with people who want to be here. It already seems to be turning for the better, just need to see how it holds up after all is said and done post TDL.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

I know it's been been to death but tanking is a crapshoot ... You can win the lottery and end up up with Yakupov.. or be totally brutal and lose out on McDavid ..so much is out of a teams control..  but building the right culture is controllable..

Players like Getzlaf and others  were mid to late round picks .. it comes down to drafting and scouting .. 

 

The very fact they even are entertaining the idea of moving Markstrom shows the mentality has shifted away from the one that saw us hold an Iggy for way too long.. 

BT likey would have given Lindholm the extra mill or whatever it is he wanted to get him to stay here .. Conroy values the desire to be here over the paycheck .. 

Culture shift... He has the right idea 

 

problem is, oilers were Satoshi Nakamoto at drafting past the first round and our strength has been beyond the first round as a drafting team

[cross16]

5 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

I know it's been been to death but tanking is a crapshoot ... You can win the lottery and end up up with Yakupov.. or be totally brutal and lose out on McDavid ..so much is out of a teams control..  but building the right culture is controllable..

Players like Getzlaf and others  were mid to late round picks .. it comes down to drafting and scouting .. 

 

The very fact they even are entertaining the idea of moving Markstrom shows the mentality has shifted away from the one that saw us hold an Iggy for way too long.. 

BT likey would have given Lindholm the extra mill or whatever it is he wanted to get him to stay here .. Conroy values the desire to be here over the paycheck .. 

Culture shift... He has the right idea 

 

Not trying to make it sound like i'm criticizing Conroy but I really don't believe this is quite true. I know Elliotte said it and I do think they traded proposals but ultimately I think Lindholm isn't here because he didn't want to be here. I do think there was a gap in value but I think that gap was intentionally high because Lindholm wasn't going to stay. 

 

So i'm not sure there is a culture shift yet. Ultimately the success of trying to re tool on the fly comes down to whether or not  you can get a steal in the draft. If they cannot then your in for more mediocrity, regardless of what you do with your culture. 

 

I don't think you can win a cup without Elite talent and several elite pieces. For me it's not tanking vs not tanking it's how do you get those elite pieces if you are not drafting in the top 5. Flames will once again try to buck the trend and try to see if it can work. 

[robrob74]

6 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Not trying to make it sound like i'm criticizing Conroy but I really don't believe this is quite true. I know Elliotte said it and I do think they traded proposals but ultimately I think Lindholm isn't here because he didn't want to be here. I do think there was a gap in value but I think that gap was intentionally high because Lindholm wasn't going to stay. 

 

So i'm not sure there is a culture shift yet. Ultimately the success of trying to re tool on the fly comes down to whether or not  you can get a steal in the draft. If they cannot then your in for more mediocrity, regardless of what you do with your culture. 

 

I don't think you can win a cup without Elite talent and several elite pieces. For me it's not tanking vs not tanking it's how do you get those elite pieces if you are not drafting in the top 5. Flames will once again try to buck the trend and try to see if it can work. 

on top of that, a Gaudreau type won't get through to the 4th round again. 
 

It's those players that might be passed on due to things like Russian and may not come over... sometimes a Pastranak or 2nd round talent like in Dallas's case happen, but can be harder to find. Credit to them but I guess that's still luck and development.

[sak22]

35 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

problem is, oilers were Satoshi Nakamoto at drafting past the first round and our strength has been beyond the first round as a drafting team

I would say of 4 #1's they got 1 elite talent, 2 really good players who aren't the best players from their draft, 1 complete bust.  Can really say even with their firsts they exceeded in 3 players (McDavid, Draisaitl and Bouchard), bad luck with Klefbom, but the rest of their first rounders during their time at the bottom they could've done better on.  But yes they also did bad in other rounds, made some really bad trades and awful signings.

[sak22]

27 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

on top of that, a Gaudreau type won't get through to the 4th round again. 
 

It's those players that might be passed on due to things like Russian and may not come over... sometimes a Pastranak or 2nd round talent like in Dallas's case happen, but can be harder to find. Credit to them but I guess that's still luck and development.

I think you'll still get the odd Gaudreau or others, I think more guys in recent years like Yamamoto or Caufield who might've been slighted previously get picked in the first round partially because of Gaudreau.  But your always going to get players who aren't as developed at 18, it could be either physically or with maturity.  But the word elite wouldn't be that way if they weren't rare to begin with.

[travel_dude]

57 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

on top of that, a Gaudreau type won't get through to the 4th round again. 
 

It's those players that might be passed on due to things like Russian and may not come over... sometimes a Pastranak or 2nd round talent like in Dallas's case happen, but can be harder to find. Credit to them but I guess that's still luck and development.

 

As the only player that is elite?  Not unless you have high level players on their game.  Perhaps our best team was the one that lost to COL in round one.  2nd best lost to EDM.  Coaching and player letdowns led to both of those exits.  Who is to say what the results would have been with a win in either series.

 

A retool comes in several forms.  

Trade for picks and young prospects; crap shoot on selections and development.

Trade for players and picks and prospect, well you are re-tooling the current team as well.

You may not see the results right away and you may not see them work.

It depends if you trade a Tkachuk for a Necas.

Or a Erat for a Forsberg.

[redfire11]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

As the only player that is elite?  Not unless you have high level players on their game.  Perhaps our best team was the one that lost to COL in round one.  2nd best lost to EDM.  Coaching and player letdowns led to both of those exits.  Who is to say what the results would have been with a win in either series.

 

A retool comes in several forms.  

Trade for picks and young prospects; crap shoot on selections and development.

Trade for players and picks and prospect, well you are re-tooling the current team as well.

You may not see the results right away and you may not see them work.

It depends if you trade a Tkachuk for a Necas.

Or a Erat for a Forsberg.

or Hull for Ramage

[travel_dude]

25 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

or Hull for Ramage

 

That helped 2 teams win cups, did it not?

Took awhile for Dallas to win it, but then again we traded him to STL.

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

That helped 2 teams win cups, did it not?

Took awhile for Dallas to win it, but then again we traded him to STL.

 

wasn't that Dallas team more of a Niewy thing? 

[redfire11]

50 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

That helped 2 teams win cups, did it not?

Took awhile for Dallas to win it, but then again we traded him to STL.

Just saying in regards to NJD's you need to trade very good prospects (when you have an abundance) to get players that can push your team forward. Like the Hull trade we lost but Ramage was a beast his 2nd playoff year and was an important factor in the SC win.

[cross16]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

on top of that, a Gaudreau type won't get through to the 4th round again. 
 

It's those players that might be passed on due to things like Russian and may not come over... sometimes a Pastranak or 2nd round talent like in Dallas's case happen, but can be harder to find. Credit to them but I guess that's still luck and development.

I don’t think it’s fair to say a Gaudreau type won’t last. Draft steals or diamonds like that happen all the time and for many different reasons 

 

it’s just statistically far less likely than drafting from the lottery. 

[jjgallow]

26 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I don’t think it’s fair to say a Gaudreau type won’t last. Draft steals or diamonds like that happen all the time and for many different reasons 

 

it’s just statistically far less likely than drafting from the lottery. 

 

Even when they do occur though,  they are even more rarely playoff winning types.   Gaudreau was a regular season miracle.

 

Getting cup winners in those rounds also happens.   But literally is another level more rare

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

I don’t think it’s fair to say a Gaudreau type won’t last. Draft steals or diamonds like that happen all the time and for many different reasons 

 

it’s just statistically far less likely than drafting from the lottery. 

 

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Even when they do occur though,  they are even more rarely playoff winning types.   Gaudreau was a regular season miracle.

 

Getting cup winners in those rounds also happens.   But literally is another level more rare

 

you probably understand what I meant there, but I think Gaudreau's size is more the reason for where he was drafted opposed to his ability. We heard that many teams salivated over him but they were all gambling on when to bite. They knew the talent was there but just didn't know if it would translate.

 

but it is hard to determine who would nowadays that deep in the draft. 
 

Kucherov was a Flames' guy but they gambled too. They were high on him but didn't know which rounds and we took Wotherspoon instead. Imagine if they gambled on him instead of going their safe pic?

[cross16]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

you probably understand what I meant there, but I think Gaudreau's size is more the reason for where he was drafted opposed to his ability. We heard that many teams salivated over him but they were all gambling on when to bite. They knew the talent was there but just didn't know if it would translate.

 

but it is hard to determine who would nowadays that deep in the draft. 
 

Kucherov was a Flames' guy but they gambled too. They were high on him but didn't know which rounds and we took Wotherspoon instead. Imagine if they gambled on him instead of going their safe pic?

 

I picked up on it yeah. I'm just saying that whether it's size, nationality, whatever I think there are always diamonds available. 

 

But it's getting harder and harder I agree. 

[travel_dude]

24 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

you probably understand what I meant there, but I think Gaudreau's size is more the reason for where he was drafted opposed to his ability. We heard that many teams salivated over him but they were all gambling on when to bite. They knew the talent was there but just didn't know if it would translate.

 

but it is hard to determine who would nowadays that deep in the draft. 
 

Kucherov was a Flames' guy but they gambled too. They were high on him but didn't know which rounds and we took Wotherspoon instead. Imagine if they gambled on him instead of going their safe pic?

 

Well call that an extreme fail.

Picked the guy that played with Seth Jones.

We seem to have issues in the 2nd round:

 

McDonald (Demko)

Wotherspoon, Granlund (Kucherov)

Kuznetsov (nobody to date)

Parsons (no real standouts)

Hunter SMith (Montour, Dvorak)