Call Ups

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

But there is time. Rushing it gets us nowhere. Not ready is not ready. Why force it when you don't have to?

 

The only reason why there is time is lack of injuries in the F corp.

No, we don't need Phillips right now.

Pelletier is showing he belongs in the top 9 so far.

Duehe looks like a Hathaway type that can play in a few roles.

Ruzie can play 4th line or better.

 

I just don't want to be again in the situation where we only move up Lucic if we had an injury.

We lost Huberdeau and used Ruzie on the top line.  That was fine.  It worked.

Lucic in the top 6 is and was not a solution.

 

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Phillips is a work in progress.  Not sure if there was enough runway to really know where he is.  It's not like the Flames are so convincingly awesome in the top 6 that I wouldn't take a longer look.  I saw some decent shifts from him as well as some meh ones.  Sutter may have even given him a plan to work on in the AHL.  Anyway, we have new fish to fry.

 

The reality is that you can't have Pelletier, Ruzicka, and Phillips up in the top 6 on any given night.  One or two may belong there.  One may play there way up to that point in a game.  Let's see how these two work out.  

 

I  watched most of the Wranglers games. First off with Zary, Pelts and Wolf its not IF they make it, its when. Phillips is good at the AHL skilled, good hockey IQ but he needs guys that drive the play or opens ice for him. Lately however the opposition have focused on better coverage he has been vertically invisible.  Its obvious that his size is a deterient but he also isn't going to make you get out of your seat type when he has the puck either. Zary drives the play and will be effective in the future once he gets some strength on him.I do think that Hubie Kadri and Pelts will be effective after the break.

 

Really our issue is going to be next year. We are going to need guys like Zary, Rozie, Pelts, Duher will need to step up their level of play for next year. Slowly working them in now sets up for a better team next year. This club will need lower cap guys to carry some of the load next season. 

[travel_dude]

52 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

I  watched most of the Wranglers games. First off with Zary, Pelts and Wolf its not IF they make it, its when. Phillips is good at the AHL skilled, good hockey IQ but he needs guys that drive the play or opens ice for him. Lately however the opposition have focused on better coverage he has been vertically invisible.  Its obvious that his size is a deterient but he also isn't going to make you get out of your seat type when he has the puck either. Zary drives the play and will be effective in the future once he gets some strength on him.I do think that Hubie Kadri and Pelts will be effective after the break.

 

Really our issue is going to be next year. We are going to need guys like Zary, Rozie, Pelts, Duher will need to step up their level of play for next year. Slowly working them in now sets up for a better team next year. This club will need lower cap guys to carry some of the load next season. 

 

It's why I voice concern about the use of the call ups.  It doesn't always come from just looking good in camp.

We have played poorly against weaker teams.  Would like to see young guys used more in those situations.

CHI was two games that the vets did not look good.

They came back in one, but were run over early.

Those two games were not the only ones I can think of.

 

Since you have likely seen the three ply on a line, let me ask you this.

Would a line of Pelts-Zohorna-Phillips be able to do something in the NHL as a 4th line?

 

 

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

It's why I voice concern about the use of the call ups.  It doesn't always come from just looking good in camp.

We have played poorly against weaker teams.  Would like to see young guys used more in those situations.

CHI was two games that the vets did not look good.

They came back in one, but were run over early.

Those two games were not the only ones I can think of.

 

Since you have likely seen the three ply on a line, let me ask you this.

Would a line of Pelts-Zohorna-Phillips be able to do something in the NHL as a 4th line?

 

 

In short No. They make a good line in the AHL but I just think Pelts and Phillips are not 4th line guys in the NHL nor should they bve slotted there.  I get the concept but Phillips and Pelts are either top 6 on this club or nothing. This is the only spot up for grabs right now.  The perfect 4th liner is Duher, although he won't play once Rithie comes back.  One thing as I mentioned with Zohorna he stands out at the AHL level, he is really good on Face off's, creates space uses his speed and has some skill. When you wathc him you think this guy is going to be great at the NHL, but he is just meh when he gets there. 

[jjgallow]

So here's why I prefer blame the GM (or higher) rather than the players or coach,..

 

The coach's job really is to win now.   Even if you're rebuilding, that's still the coach's job.

 

 

Sutter does his job well.  Always has.

 

 

Want callups?    Sutter didn't sign Lucic, Sutter didn't create a cap problem, Sutter didn't put together an NHL team and an AHL team both made up almost entirely of left wingers.

 

As frustrating as it is, I think Sutter is doing his job until the moment the new kids have a better chance of winning.   I don't think we're there yet.

 

 

Is the situation ideal?  No.  It's aweful.  But I don't think that's Sutter's domain.

[The_People1]

10 hours ago, conundrumed said:

My ex-boss, who is also a close friend, his son played with Stuart in Regina. To this day, Brad Stuart had the most lethal shot anyone had ever seen. It is zero wonder he was a high pick. He also ripped his passes, which were more often than not too hot to handle. Biggest knock on him. When 25mph would suffice, he's sending it 60mph.

I don't know if it still applies, but some contracts used to be micro-focused right down to your turnovers. If you're getting the puck and rifling a pass off of a teammates stick, it's not your turnover.

Hard to believe, but I've heard that story a few times about Dmen. It was a stat used against them in contract negotiations, and even a clause in some cases.

Take that for what it's worth, but I've heard that from a few different directions. Unsure if I heard that with Stuart, but same era. I just can't remember. The name triggered me, so I think probably.

I know that's bizarre, but yeah, I have no doubt that it was a thing. I have a few different sources about that.

 

Kek reminds me of that time Bennett won a puck along the right boards and had Jankowski completely wide open streaking down the slot.  Bennett takes aim and then rifles a hard pass to Jankowski. Unfortunately, Jankowski was LHS and the pass was made 70mph 3-feet to Jankowski's right side.  The puck goes out the zone and all the way to our end of the rink.

 

I don't think Bennett's passing has improved too much in FLA.

[The_People1]

11 hours ago, sak22 said:

This does not exist though.  There isn't a coach out there that takes a job to lose and risk never getting a head coaching job again, and I think most successful rebuilds you will point to go through 2-3 head coaches.  Sutter's tenure in San Jose is one of the more recent examples of a coach taking on a rebuild and getting to see it through.  Sutter took over a team that had 62 points and drafted Marleau 2nd overall, he made the playoffs the first year with 78 points which wouldn't qualify these days and that team got better each year, not cup good but they were drafting Marleau and Stuart who were good players but not Stamkos and Hedman or Crosby and Malkin.

 

Exists... I felt Bob Hartley was this coach.  But the coach has to come into a situation where he understands fully the direction of his team and doesn't have any illusions about it.

 

I'm not saying the coach intentionally lose games but he places experiences above the actual W.

 

It's also on the GM to make sure he doesn't give this coach options so he has no choice but to play the young kids.

 

These coaches don't last and they know it.  They know the situation they were getting themselves into.  They will take the job because there are only 32 jobs in the NHL.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

What's the climate in the 'peg? Does everyone want "all in"?

The majority seem to think this should be the time to make a splash at TDL and go for it but there doesnt seem to be a decisive target.  Some want Johnathon Toews ($ retained) for the hometown connection and pedigree.  Barbashev and Tarasenko also come up but that would only happen if the Blues are too far out by the deadline.  Dadinov and Hoffman have also come up.  A pure rental makes sense if they truely want to re sign PLD this summer.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

27 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

So here's why I prefer blame the GM (or higher) rather than the players or coach,..

 

The coach's job really is to win now.   Even if you're rebuilding, that's still the coach's job.

 

 

Sutter does his job well.  Always has.

 

 

Want callups?    Sutter didn't sign Lucic, Sutter didn't create a cap problem, Sutter didn't put together an NHL team and an AHL team both made up almost entirely of left wingers.

 

As frustrating as it is, I think Sutter is doing his job until the moment the new kids have a better chance of winning.   I don't think we're there yet.

 

 

Is the situation ideal?  No.  It's aweful.  But I don't think that's Sutter's domain.

Flames are in less of a cap problem than most of the league.........this year. If the likes of Looch, Ritchie and Lewis get re signed for next season thats all Sutter.

[redfire11]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Pelts-Zohorna-Phillips

Why not Pelts-Ruzicca -Duhr

 

I would add Lewis on a one year for next season

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

The majority seem to think this should be the time to make a splash at TDL and go for it but there doesnt seem to be a decisive target.  Some want Johnathon Toews ($ retained) for the hometown connection and pedigree.  Barbashev and Tarasenko also come up but that would only happen if the Blues are too far out by the deadline.  Dadinov and Hoffman have also come up.  A pure rental makes sense if they truely want to re sign PLD this summer.

Dadonov is a really nice add on the down-low for someone imo. I'd have liked him for the Flames ever since he left Fla. NTC and all.lol

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Flames are in less of a cap problem than most of the league.........this year. If the likes of Looch, Ritchie and Lewis get re signed for next season thats all Sutter.

 

I know what you mean, but, it literally would be BT.   BT hired Sutter too, so there's that  (different thread though).

 

If the Wranglers go far in the playoffs those guys are going to have sky-high values and if BT decides to keep all his vets past their expiry, that is on him whether these guys get called up or not.   They'll still be able to showcase their value in the playoffs.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the lack of callups, I don't.   I just don't point the finger at Sutter for this, as it was set up this way.

[travel_dude]

9 hours ago, tmac70 said:

In short No. They make a good line in the AHL but I just think Pelts and Phillips are not 4th line guys in the NHL nor should they bve slotted there.  I get the concept but Phillips and Pelts are either top 6 on this club or nothing. This is the only spot up for grabs right now.  The perfect 4th liner is Duher, although he won't play once Rithie comes back.  One thing as I mentioned with Zohorna he stands out at the AHL level, he is really good on Face off's, creates space uses his speed and has some skill. When you wathc him you think this guy is going to be great at the NHL, but he is just meh when he gets there. 

 

What is a 4th line these days?

It's not a slow dump in line.

Forget about what you want to call them, what would you expect to see from the trio in the NHL?

One would expect the same as they play in the AHL, with a lot harder competition.

They aren't sheltered in the AHL, so you may want to in the NHL.

They do with our current 4th line, as best they can.

 

We have defensive C's on the top and 3rd line now.

You could give them good starts.

 

Anyway, all I was getting at was trying to get an opinion from someone that sees them play as a line.

It won't happen, but I was interested what they might be like as a line in the NHL.

 

[conundrumed]

10 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Flames are in less of a cap problem than most of the league.........this year. If the likes of Looch, Ritchie and Lewis get re signed for next season thats all Sutter.

That hurt my head.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I know what you mean, but, it literally would be BT.   BT hired Sutter too, so there's that  (different thread though).

 

If the Wranglers go far in the playoffs those guys are going to have sky-high values and if BT decides to keep all his vets past their expiry, that is on him whether these guys get called up or not.   They'll still be able to showcase their value in the playoffs.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the lack of callups, I don't.   I just don't point the finger at Sutter for this, as it was set up this way.

I still believe Sutters hiring came from higher up and once BT is gone Sutter will have a big say in who replaces him.  And I dont think think it will be anyone with any kind of pedigree that wont let Sutter call the shots.  Good or bad this will be a Sutter team more and more.

[jjgallow]

26 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I still believe Sutters hiring came from higher up and once BT is gone Sutter will have a big say in who replaces him.  And I dont think think it will be anyone with any kind of pedigree that wont let Sutter call the shots.  Good or bad this will be a Sutter team more and more.

 

Maybe you're right, dunno.

 

I like Sutter.   Not for callups, don't like him for that.   And I hate him as a GM.  That's not his thing.

 

But, if they do give him that kind of control maybe I'll get my rebuild lol, worked last time

[CheersMan]

1 hour ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I still believe Sutters hiring came from higher up and once BT is gone Sutter will have a big say in who replaces him.  And I dont think think it will be anyone with any kind of pedigree that wont let Sutter call the shots.  Good or bad this will be a Sutter team more and more.

[cross16]

13 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Exists... I felt Bob Hartley was this coach.  But the coach has to come into a situation where he understands fully the direction of his team and doesn't have any illusions about it.

 

I'm not saying the coach intentionally lose games but he places experiences above the actual W.

 

It's also on the GM to make sure he doesn't give this coach options so he has no choice but to play the young kids.

 

These coaches don't last and they know it.  They know the situation they were getting themselves into.  They will take the job because there are only 32 jobs in the NHL.

 

He was not.

Good teacher yes but make no mistake he pushed them hard to win. It's why he was let go. 

[sak22]

1 hour ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I still believe Sutters hiring came from higher up and once BT is gone Sutter will have a big say in who replaces him.  And I dont think think it will be anyone with any kind of pedigree that wont let Sutter call the shots.  Good or bad this will be a Sutter team more and more.

Why would Sutter want to wait 2.5 seasons to get his guy?  I think we've done too much stereotyping of Sutter based on what he says, I think he knows he can't have a team full of Mike Ricci's, Trevor Lewis or Stephane Yelle's, I think he speaks highly of those type guys in the media because he appreciates what they bring and knows they won't get as much credit for overall team success and won't get paid the big bucks.  We choose to remember Sutter GM V.1 for his trading of picks (which given how most of the 1sts were used, maybe a fault would be not trading more for bigger returns),and the old vets like McCarty, Nolan, and Bertuzzi.  But those were all low cost acquisitions, some of the ones with higher costs were Mike Cammalleri and Alex Tanguay, and not necessarily a high cost guy but Kristian Huselius, none of those guys fit the bill as Sutter type players, neither were Tony Amonte or Jeff Friesen but those were guys he coached before and brought back as a GM (although we wish he didn't).  You could be right, but I don't think were just going to give up all skill for size and grit.

[travel_dude]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I know what you mean, but, it literally would be BT.   BT hired Sutter too, so there's that  (different thread though).

 

If the Wranglers go far in the playoffs those guys are going to have sky-high values and if BT decides to keep all his vets past their expiry, that is on him whether these guys get called up or not.   They'll still be able to showcase their value in the playoffs.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the lack of callups, I don't.   I just don't point the finger at Sutter for this, as it was set up this way.

 

The guys like Ritchie and Lewis were after-thoughts for the most part.

BT signed Rooney (a mistake for the type of team he came from).

The Neal for Lucic thing was selling the owners of a less expensive contract.

Simplest thing would be to have bought Neal out, but that's a lot of money.

At least Lucic is a character guy that gets fans going in a positive way.

And to the owners, it saves something like $4M.

 

What was expected at camp by BT was that at least one prospect would make the team.

Sutter gave him the cut list and BT needed to figure out how to make it happen.

Newly signed Meloche was gone and so was Valimaki.

That's not on BT, it's on the players and the coach.

Sutter's comments from last year were that Mackey was more NHL ready.

Even if he didn't live up to it this year, that view was being held.

Kylington put a crimp on the GM's ability to call up players.

Had to dance to get players up at times.

 

So, it comes down to the coach to use the players he's given or not to use them.

What I find odd is that before Phillips was called up, Sutter went on a rant about the player's size.

When he came up, he sat, he played, he sat then was sent down.

Pelletier was used the same way, though he showed more of a NHL game.

Zohorna and Duehr both came up and were used rather quickly.

Duehr sat out so that Pelletier could stay in the lineup.

Ruzie sat out initially.

This while using Lucic in a top 6 role.

 

 

Anyway, this is going off on a tangent.  We should probably be trying out players at the NHL level.

If we need them during a playoff run, we would need to call them up before the deadline.

Otherwise, they are in the AHL until the Wranglers are done.

Untested/unproven players could be a difference maker, but throwing them in a game 7 isn't really wise.

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

35 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

As far as conspiracy theories go its not that outlandish. Granted I also believe theres usually a level of behind the curtain shenanigans going on in most things nowadays.  Hockey included.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

30 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Why would Sutter want to wait 2.5 seasons to get his guy?  I think we've done too much stereotyping of Sutter based on what he says, I think he knows he can't have a team full of Mike Ricci's, Trevor Lewis or Stephane Yelle's, I think he speaks highly of those type guys in the media because he appreciates what they bring and knows they won't get as much credit for overall team success and won't get paid the big bucks.  We choose to remember Sutter GM V.1 for his trading of picks (which given how most of the 1sts were used, maybe a fault would be not trading more for bigger returns),and the old vets like McCarty, Nolan, and Bertuzzi.  But those were all low cost acquisitions, some of the ones with higher costs were Mike Cammalleri and Alex Tanguay, and not necessarily a high cost guy but Kristian Huselius, none of those guys fit the bill as Sutter type players, neither were Tony Amonte or Jeff Friesen but those were guys he coached before and brought back as a GM (although we wish he didn't).  You could be right, but I don't think were just going to give up all skill for size and grit.

In all honesty the whole idea was touched on by an analyst a few months ago and at the time it didnt seem that improbable. I think alot of it stem from an apparent longer leash on some players than others which ties in to the utilization of the younger guys. Sutter has his type of player which a team needs to a degree but should it be at the cost of call up opportunity? Now that Ritchie is cleared to return will he be back in the line up right away and at whos expense? 

[tmac70]

9 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

What is a 4th line these days?

It's not a slow dump in line.

Forget about what you want to call them, what would you expect to see from the trio in the NHL?

One would expect the same as they play in the AHL, with a lot harder competition.

They aren't sheltered in the AHL, so you may want to in the NHL.

They do with our current 4th line, as best they can.

 

We have defensive C's on the top and 3rd line now.

You could give them good starts.

 

Anyway, all I was getting at was trying to get an opinion from someone that sees them play as a line.

It won't happen, but I was interested what they might be like as a line in the NHL.

 

Like I said I get where your coming from. The best spot for Pelts right now is with Hubie and Kadri, the same I would say with Phillips. Both are top 6 guys but I just see the Flames giving more levy to Pelts than Phillips. 

 

What we have seen is Duher fits your bottom line, he's been effective in that role. Zohorna was good for 2 games and crap after. Whats missing is not key line combinations its a top 6 winger and a Dman IMHO. I think this team if it ever starts to click could be a threat but those are the largest holes. Currently we don't have that elite winger in the AHL or world class Dman. I think that Zary and Pelts play for this team. I see them as similar versions to Dube good enough but not great. 

 

The only ones that I could see a higher expectaions from are Porier and Wolf, but they both need some growth as well

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

In all honesty the whole idea was touched on by an analyst a few months ago and at the time it didnt seem that improbable. I think alot of it stem from an apparent longer leash on some players than others which ties in to the utilization of the younger guys. Sutter has his type of player which a team needs to a degree but should it be at the cost of call up opportunity? Now that Ritchie is cleared to return will he be back in the line up right away and at whos expense? 

 

If they decide to call back up Pelletier (no reason why they wouldn't), the most likely to come out is Ruzicka.  After that, it would be Ritchie followed by Lucic.  The leash is long, so they get promoted when they play well enough and sent to 4th line if not.  Ruzie is struggling to contribute at 5v5 on the 4th line, but he's quite good on the PP.  I also would say that Ruzie has been as good as Lewis on faceoffs.  Actually about 4% better.

[conundrumed]

18 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Like I said I get where your coming from. The best spot for Pelts right now is with Hubie and Kadri, the same I would say with Phillips. Both are top 6 guys but I just see the Flames giving more levy to Pelts than Phillips. 

 

What we have seen is Duher fits your bottom line, he's been effective in that role. Zohorna was good for 2 games and crap after. Whats missing is not key line combinations its a top 6 winger and a Dman IMHO. I think this team if it ever starts to click could be a threat but those are the largest holes. Currently we don't have that elite winger in the AHL or world class Dman. I think that Zary and Pelts play for this team. I see them as similar versions to Dube good enough but not great. 

 

The only ones that I could see a higher expectaions from are Porier and Wolf, but they both need some growth as well

Having not watched the Wranglers...has removing Pelletier dragged Phillips' O-game down? His stat lines look way down.