Call Ups

[conundrumed]

What are we waiting for, exactly?

Or maybe, why do we have prospects? If they are only there in case of injury to our star-studded roster, why not trade half of them for picks?

I know that is frustration speaking, but AHL prospects generally don’t walk in and tear a hole in the NHL, but they have to start somewhere, or are we raising career AHLers?

When Adam Ruzicka starts looking like one of your legit scoring threats, maybe it’s time to give him an ex-AHL linemate and let them make mistakes.

What do we have to lose at this point? Come the new year, this league gets even stingier.

At that point, you’ve waited too long.

Is it worth sticking with this to see if it bares fruit?

[cross16]

It's a good question and I don't get it either. You are seeing a team that could sure use some extra speed, a jolt and some scoring and you are sitting on 3 of the top scorers in the NHL. The logic is getting really really hard to support. 

 

And honestly don't give me the "ya but they may only play 4th line" argument as I don't buy that. First the Flames 4th line is garbage as it is and when you have a coach who wants to roll lines that's a problem, so if a young player can help there then let him. In addition to that I don't buy this argument that players can't develop there. Mang came up, played 4th line, was a really positive element and then moved his way up the lineup. It's just on the coaching staff to make sure they play at least there 5-8 mins but I would argue that 5-8 mins of ice time in the NHL is going to better develop the likes of Phillips, Zary and Pelletier more than continuing to play in the A. All 3 of those guys have shown that they can handle that so it's time for the next step. 

 

No matter the prospect there is always going to be development at the NHL level. I think the whole "the NHL is not a development league" is one of the biggest farces in the sport. 

 

The lack of playing young players is just one of the tradeoffs you get with Sutter and I get that, but I'm really surprised at the level of favoritism he is showing to certain elements/players of the team this season. Sutter is intentional so i can buy that it's part of the bigger plan but I have a level of concern about it for sure.  

[travel_dude]

Ruzicka is already looking like a guy that will score 20 this year, and that's on a defensive line or with your best C.

Dube and Mangiapane look good for a game or two, then go back to sleep.  Kadri doesn't look like a threat out there.

I know I am picking on that line, but it seems poorly constructed with two wingers that are getting knocked over.

Mangiapane looked great with Backlund, but we aren't willing to consider it.

 

Why did I mention that?  Because a Phillips or Pelletier may encounter the same issues here.

But, should you mix it up a bit, there is no reason why Rozie and Kadri couldn't support a player like Phillips.

You get a guy willing to go through a wall playing with skilled players.

The alternate universe puts Dube on the 4th line, but I would rather see Dube than Lucic at LW or Lewis at C.

Rooney is in the doghouse, but he's not the worst player on the team.

Waive him and get him playing again.

Bring up Phillips to play with Kadri and Rozie.

Figure out whether Mangiapane or Hiberdeau should play with Lindy and Toffee.

 

I tend to agree that scoring sucks and we aren't getting better.

The lines is half the problem.

We have good structure, but the shot volume is not the only goal.

Players are preached to get it on net and go to the dirty areas.

That's fine but is forcing a bad shot instead of looking for a better one.

 

Our entire 4th line could be replaced by Pelletier-Zary-Phillips with no loss of productivity.

We lose some grit and "leadership" but also are able to compete.

Instead of 8-12 minutes of fumbling and the occasional thunderous hit, we see 100% compete.

All the prospects are used to the altitude and are shining.

We have gotten too old and are not bringing on the next wave.

[flames for life]

32 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Ruzicka is already looking like a guy that will score 20 this year, and that's on a defensive line or with your best C.

Dube and Mangiapane look good for a game or two, then go back to sleep.  Kadri doesn't look like a threat out there.

I know I am picking on that line, but it seems poorly constructed with two wingers that are getting knocked over.

Mangiapane looked great with Backlund, but we aren't willing to consider it.

 

Why did I mention that?  Because a Phillips or Pelletier may encounter the same issues here.

But, should you mix it up a bit, there is no reason why Rozie and Kadri couldn't support a player like Phillips.

You get a guy willing to go through a wall playing with skilled players.

The alternate universe puts Dube on the 4th line, but I would rather see Dube than Lucic at LW or Lewis at C.

Rooney is in the doghouse, but he's not the worst player on the team.

Waive him and get him playing again.

Bring up Phillips to play with Kadri and Rozie.

Figure out whether Mangiapane or Hiberdeau should play with Lindy and Toffee.

 

I tend to agree that scoring sucks and we aren't getting better.

The lines is half the problem.

We have good structure, but the shot volume is not the only goal.

Players are preached to get it on net and go to the dirty areas.

That's fine but is forcing a bad shot instead of looking for a better one.

 

Our entire 4th line could be replaced by Pelletier-Zary-Phillips with no loss of productivity.

We lose some grit and "leadership" but also are able to compete.

Instead of 8-12 minutes of fumbling and the occasional thunderous hit, we see 100% compete.

All the prospects are used to the altitude and are shining.

We have gotten too old and are not bringing on the next wave.

Sounds familiar.  I think I’ve been singing this song for a couple of weeks now!!

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, flames for life said:

Sounds familiar.  I think I’ve been singing this song for a couple of weeks now!!

 

It's an identity change and would be hard to do, let alone the cap/roster implications.

Only possible to call up 2 right now and that's if you waive Rooney and Mackey (not likely).

Kylington is burning a spot and cap but can't do anything about that.

Will have to waive Mackey at some point as it is.

 

[conundrumed]

How will any of our prospects evolve with zero chance in the NHL? Teams, and good teams (e.g NYR) have 3rd lines of prospects. Coach them.

This is getting ridiculous. Nobody is driving anything We have a bunch of forwards afraid to make a mistake because demotion comes right now.

So everyone is gripping their stick in fear.

When we’ve been bad in the past, it’s looked like everyone is having zero fun.

We’re bad again, and everyone looks like they’re having zero fun.

I’m totally pissed at Sutter. He’s being a total dick.

Try a new tactic, you Cryptography.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

How will any of our prospects evolve with zero chance in the NHL? Teams, and good teams (e.g NYR) have 3rd lines of prospects. Coach them.

This is getting ridiculous. Nobody is driving anything We have a bunch of forwards afraid to make a mistake because demotion comes right now.

So everyone is gripping their stick in fear.

When we’ve been bad in the past, it’s looked like everyone is having zero fun.

We’re bad again, and everyone looks like they’re having zero fun.

I’m totally pissed at Sutter. He’s being a total dick.

Try a new tactic, you Cryptography.

 

There isn't even a line that has chemistry from last year.

3 players that either weren't here last year or played so few games.

Toffoli rarely, if ever, played with Lindholm.

Dube and Mange never played together with positive results, think they played with Monahan for that stint.

The 4th line is consistent.  Consistently getting owned.

 

Lucic and Lewis are such great leaders in the room, maybe they should try coaching.

Even with a short bench, they were getting owned.  4-7 minutes for that group.

1 shot on net for the entire line.

I would prefer 8-10 minutes of a guy working his butt off to score than huffing and puffin to hold the zone.

It ain't working.

 

I hate to say it, but the biggest threat to score out there every shift is Rozie.

Him and Toffoli are the ones most likely to get a hard shot on net.

We have prospects that could come in and provide some kind of spark.

Let them show the stale guys what it takes to stay in the lineup.

You could have Zary and Pelletier with Ritchie if you like.

Defensively it's better than what we have.

Offensively, it ices a threat to score.

But it can't be done unless you sit the vets.

 

You want to give a top 6 AHL player a top 6 spot?

So be it, it's not entirely working.

The downside is that it says "miss a shift and you get 4th line".

The better thing is that you show something you get rewarded.

 

 

[travel_dude]

Salim Valji asked Sutter about the AHL players and specifically Phillips:

 

[conundrumed]

Maybe he should send Lewis down there for his opinion.

[travel_dude]

Just now, conundrumed said:

Maybe he should send Lewis down there for his opinion.

 

I would be inclined to send down both Lewis and Rooney but that solves nothing unless you actually call somebody up.

Maybe a C for the 4th line that can win a faceoff?

Or a winger that does more than look like a guard dog on a leash.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

How will any of our prospects evolve with zero chance in the NHL? Teams, and good teams (e.g NYR) have 3rd lines of prospects. Coach them.

This is getting ridiculous. Nobody is driving anything We have a bunch of forwards afraid to make a mistake because demotion comes right now.

So everyone is gripping their stick in fear.

When we’ve been bad in the past, it’s looked like everyone is having zero fun.

We’re bad again, and everyone looks like they’re having zero fun.

I’m totally pissed at Sutter. He’s being a total dick.

Try a new tactic, you Cryptography.

 

He is a good coach and I know it feels "convenient" to try and blame the coach especially one who was the Jack Adams winner last year but I fully agree with this. 

 

IMO, Sutter has been part of the problem this year. 

[cross16]

27 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Salim Valji asked Sutter about the AHL players and specifically Phillips:

 

 

 

This is a good example of what Conundrumed and I are talking about. Like seriously what is this answer? I don't expect a coach to give me the plan or even be honesty necessarily but this answer (and many of his during pressers this year) just makes him seem so pissy and juvenile. 

 

I don't believe, and haven't for a while, that Phillips will get a shot under Sutter and I'm honestly not that mad about it as I actually think there is some logic to it. But you don't need to throw shade at prospects or the idea of calling them up in the process. 

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

 

This is a good example of what Conundrumed and I are talking about. Like seriously what is this answer? I don't expect a coach to give me the plan or even be honesty necessarily but this answer (and many of his during pressers this year) just makes him seem so pissy and juvenile. 

 

I don't believe, and haven't for a while, that Phillips will get a shot under Sutter and I'm honestly not that mad about it as I actually think there is some logic to it. But you don't need to throw shade at prospects or the idea of calling them up in the process. 

 

TSN is very much a controversy based reporting bunch.  I get why he is pissy with TSN, but he comes off that way with most of the reporters.

Few even bother asking the hard questions.  But this question is exactly what needs to be asked.  The answer shows the bias.  He also doesn't like questions about specific players.  They (Wranglers) are a team.  And he believes that the team isn't good enough for the NHL.  No kidding.  But that's not the same as specific players.       

 

If they are not willing to ever give Phillips a shot, trade him for someone that may get a chance.  Or use him as a sweetener in a bigger trade.  But I also don't think this is only Phillips.  Pelletier is viewed in the same light because he had a lesser camp, playing away from the roster players.  I think Sutter likes Zary but is not ready to bring him up.  

 

The Jack Adams thing is a bit of recentcy bias.  He was a great coach for that team, but never really got on them for being unwilling to go to the net.  The [playoffs exposed that.  Not that I am complaining about that team, but we have turned into a team that needs to battle to score a single goal.  What does Sutter say about last night?  The guys that need to finish didn't.  Perhaps the dirty areas are not the only places to score from.  Perhaps the line combos don't match the need.      

 

 

[cross16]

39 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

TSN is very much a controversy based reporting bunch.  I get why he is pissy with TSN, but he comes off that way with most of the reporters.

Few even bother asking the hard questions.  But this question is exactly what needs to be asked.  The answer shows the bias.  He also doesn't like questions about specific players.  They (Wranglers) are a team.  And he believes that the team isn't good enough for the NHL.  No kidding.  But that's not the same as specific players.       

 

If they are not willing to ever give Phillips a shot, trade him for someone that may get a chance.  Or use him as a sweetener in a bigger trade.  But I also don't think this is only Phillips.  Pelletier is viewed in the same light because he had a lesser camp, playing away from the roster players.  I think Sutter likes Zary but is not ready to bring him up.  

 

The Jack Adams thing is a bit of recentcy bias.  He was a great coach for that team, but never really got on them for being unwilling to go to the net.  The [playoffs exposed that.  Not that I am complaining about that team, but we have turned into a team that needs to battle to score a single goal.  What does Sutter say about last night?  The guys that need to finish didn't.  Perhaps the dirty areas are not the only places to score from.  Perhaps the line combos don't match the need.      

 

 

 

Maybe but I would suspect he isn't worth anything in trade and he'll be a UFA this summer so he'll have a chance to go wherever he wants anyway. 

[jjgallow]

I think the anger in here is healthy and I'm glad to see it.

 

Much good came from moving our AHL team here.  Truth is, the Flames have always been this dumb.  Especially under Sutter.  But now it's right in front of us.

 

Two things to get angry about:

 

1.  Phillips should be given a shot.  I'm going to be completely honest, I think Sutter is actually right, and he will fail.
        He should be given a shot though anyway, or traded to a team that will give him one.  Anything less than this is unprofesisonal.

 

2.   Yes. they've been off to a good start, but the truth is, we don't have much down there.  I really don't see any of them cracking the NHL except maybe  Wolf, Phillips and Poirier.

           That Doesn't mean they won't crack the NHL. Zary, Pelletier cold take it up another notch and make it.

 

       Bottom line, I know lots of people will want to argue about the talent level there but it also wouldn't hurt if we didn't trade away all our picks and make horrible short-term decisions on the regular.   If a player is Really good enough, even Sutter can't stop them.

[Thebrewcrew]

It's ignorance and arrogance from Sutter. Set in his ways.

 

This team is filled with "Sutter players". The team is, at best, a WC team. You'd think they'd be open to something different, because this isn't working.

 

Look at Lucic. He has 0 goals in 23 games. Going back to last season he hasn't scored in 45 games. 7pts in 45 games. I can almost guarantee that Phillips/Pelletier/Zary would produce you more than 7a in over half of a season. But they don't play a "role". Although at this point I would really question what Lucic's role is on this team.

 

On top of it, I absolutely hate the message that it sends to the prospects. You have a player leading the AHL in points, but apparently that's not good enough. Then what is?

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

It's ignorance and arrogance from Sutter. Set in his ways.

 

This team is filled with "Sutter players". The team is, at best, a WC team. You'd think they'd be open to something different, because this isn't working.

 

Look at Lucic. He has 0 goals in 23 games. Going back to last season he hasn't scored in 45 games. 7pts in 45 games. I can almost guarantee that Phillips/Pelletier/Zary would produce you more than 7a in over half of a season. But they don't play a "role". Although at this point I would really question what Lucic's role is on this team.

 

On top of it, I absolutely hate the message that it sends to the prospects. You have a player leading the AHL in points, but apparently that's not good enough. Then what is?

 

The way he answers that kind of question is troubling.  I don't know what he means, but I know what it sounds like.

The AHL is a different league and scoring there is not the same.

The answer is missing about two or three more points, but Sutter doesn't finish his thoughts at times.

He gets pissy and thinks people are questioning his usage, which they are.

Hates armchair GMs.

 

That does not mean that you can;t do the same in the NHL.

And I think he gets that.

He has a real problem with non vets of a certain age.

He talks about Mange and Dube without mentioning bames.

Says the vets know what they need to do and don't need reminding.

They may need to be better (Kadri), but they know that.

Says the young guys need to be constantly reminded.

[conundrumed]

Hmmm…

 

[travel_dude]

^^^^^^

It's funny how last year under Sutter, Kylington impressed Sutter enough to win a full time job.

It came down to Kylington vs Valimaki.

One guy looked 100% ready in camp and the other tentative.

Still got games in early on, but once Zaddy proved he was worth it, Valimaki was dumped.

That was 21/22.

22/23 I can't tell you if he was given much of a chance in camp or not.

End result he was waived.

 

On the surface, Sutter appears to not pump up players unless they are NHL regulars.

Or had a camp that they blew away the other choices.

It should come as no surprise that prospects are not here.

Play them with only AHL players in camp.

When they don't score hatties, then they belong in the AHL.

Because AHL is not NHL.

[LouCifer]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Hmmm…

 

I find it hard to read too much into this quote, it’s got that woe is me tone to it. What exactly is Valimaki’s character like? Is Valimaki the type that pushes himself? Or is he the type that rests on his talent alone? Is he the type that sets goals and targets to achieve? Or is he the type that believes he deserves things due to his skill and draft pedigree? Did Valimaki have to earn his keep growing up or is he a product of the “everyone gets a participation ribbon” generation? How has he responded to the unfortunate injuries that delayed and derailed his trajectory - is he wallowing in it or is he fighting to get back?
 

Every coach is different. Sutter is demanding and doesn’t throw compliments around to stroke the needs of people’s egos. But, regardless of Sutter, it was obvious that Kylington was willing to do what it took to be on the team, and Valimaki did nothing on the ice to prove he belonged in the lineup. You can call it sulking, you can call it unfair, you can call it “negative energy”… at the end of the day I call it BS. Hopefully he figures it out and doesn’t squander his opportunity to play in the NHL. 

[conundrumed]

I read it more as being told everything you’re doing wrong without balancing it with positives. Just guessing.

It’s a trend…Sutter rarely says anything good about young players or prospects.

Once you’re 30, have won a cup and are now lousy in your twilight he’ll pump your tires. Until then, he’s kind of an idiot.

Everyone motivates differently.

Sutter’s tactics are becoming a bygone era.

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

^^^^^^

It's funny how last year under Sutter, Kylington impressed Sutter enough to win a full time job.

It came down to Kylington vs Valimaki.

One guy looked 100% ready in camp and the other tentative.

Still got games in early on, but once Zaddy proved he was worth it, Valimaki was dumped.

That was 21/22.

22/23 I can't tell you if he was given much of a chance in camp or not.

End result he was waived.

 

On the surface, Sutter appears to not pump up players unless they are NHL regulars.

Or had a camp that they blew away the other choices.

It should come as no surprise that prospects are not here.

Play them with only AHL players in camp.

When they don't score hatties, then they belong in the AHL.

Because AHL is not NHL.

Yup!

[CheersMan]

11 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I read it more as being told everything you’re doing wrong without balancing it with positives. Just guessing.

It’s a trend…Sutter rarely says anything good about young players or prospects.

Once you’re 30, have won a cup and are now lousy in your twilight he’ll pump your tires. Until then, he’s kind of an idiot.

Everyone motivates differently.

Sutter’s tactics are becoming a bygone era.

Valimaki was coddled here for 4 years and was unable to crack the top 7.

If your tire continues to leak air after 4 years, its best to replace it.

How long did it take good young dmen like Makar or Fox to grab the reins of opportunity?

Maybe somebody here has the time to look back at all the Suter teams and tally/ list the countless young players that succeeded under his wing.

[cross16]

I'm happy for Valimaki. He deserved a fresh shot and i'm glad it's working for him. I thought he was solid last night and by all accounts he's been decent this year. 

 

I say this a lot but you get trade offs when you hire Sutter, and to an extent all coaches. Sutter's way can work for some, mostly veterans though, and it isn't going to work for others because exactly how Valimaki outlines he isn't going to pull you aside an give you extra attention/motivation. I don't think it's fair to call Sutter negative but I also don't really think he modifies his style to different players, you get Sutter and only Sutter. I don't personally think that's the way to coach in the modern game and I think what Valimaki is saying should be considered as learning for the organization. 

 

but at the same time I also think it's worth pointing out that while i'm happy for Valimaki he isn't exactly lightning the world on fire in Arizona so it's not like I think this lead to a major loss. I just think the Flames and Sutter should consider his feedback and perhaps learn from it. They are going to need young players and prospects to make a difference here soon. 

[travel_dude]

37 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I'm happy for Valimaki. He deserved a fresh shot and i'm glad it's working for him. I thought he was solid last night and by all accounts he's been decent this year. 

 

I say this a lot but you get trade offs when you hire Sutter, and to an extent all coaches. Sutter's way can work for some, mostly veterans though, and it isn't going to work for others because exactly how Valimaki outlines he isn't going to pull you aside an give you extra attention/motivation. I don't think it's fair to call Sutter negative but I also don't really think he modifies his style to different players, you get Sutter and only Sutter. I don't personally think that's the way to coach in the modern game and I think what Valimaki is saying should be considered as learning for the organization. 

 

but at the same time I also think it's worth pointing out that while i'm happy for Valimaki he isn't exactly lightning the world on fire in Arizona so it's not like I think this lead to a major loss. I just think the Flames and Sutter should consider his feedback and perhaps learn from it. They are going to need young players and prospects to make a difference here soon. 

 

Sutter mentioned that he uses different methods depending on the player, but I think his personality rubs some the wrong way.

Gaudreau talks about his words after a game winning OT goal in the playoffs; nice goal.  That's about it.

I think Sutter has a problem with individual vs team success.

You could be a standout, but the line sucked, so you all suck.

You do well, the whole line is doing well, so you are all playing good.

 

That may be the case when it's positive stuff.

You could be on a line that sucks and you haven't raised the line up, then you don't deserve anything.

Or you are paid to score and you don't.  If you are a vet, get better.  If a young player, not going to hard areas.

 

Of course, I am basing this on public comments.  I don't see the real Sutter at practices.

He could be great in the room, but his bench persona makes that doubtful.

 

The team is trending in the right direction, then has a weird night.

For the most part, we are seeing a team that is in stage 2 of team developing.

4th line is killing us, but I don't know how much that infects the rest of the lines.

Are the D getting burnt from having to cover for them?

Does momentum shift so much that it's hard to get it back?

If so, why are we shooting ourselves in the foot and playing them?