Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[CheersMan]

Best head coached in the NHL do not finish deal last in goals against

Best head coaches in the NHL do not finish dead last in special teams

Best head coaches in the NHL do not have back to back seasons where their team is in the bottom 3rd for scoring chances against and high danger scoring chances against. 

Best head coaches in the NHL do not continuously have a bottom tier team in terms of possession metrics. 

 

You can like Hartley and respect the job he did that is all fine but to cal him one of the best head coaches in the NHL is pretty ludicrous IMO. he got the Jack Adams because he got his team to over achieve for a year, not because he is a great coach IMO. Unfortunately the Jack Adams no longer rewards the best coach it rewards the coach who got his team to overachieve the most.

 

If you need league average goaltending in order to turn your team into slightly below league average you've got other issues. goaltending alone would not have fixed everything with this team. 

 

Coaches don’t stop pucks, goaltenders do.

The last three years has been a continual dismantling of the team, every move or trade was done with an eye on the future.  Do you think specialty teams, scoring chances and possession metrics would suffer under those circumstances? 

That’s correct, BH is the reigning Jack Adams winner and he will make a difference on the next team he lands in.

[cross16]

The pro ranks are a delicate balance of timing and the talent levels you are dealing with as a coach. What were TOR statistics this year and they have the best coach in hockey as an example.

Hartley has had his periods of success and likely has believers he is capable of coaching at the NHL, to say he isn't an NHL coach is ludicrous. He will land on his feet somewhere, I just hope we get a coach that can advance this group of players from the time he walks in the door.

 

First of all I did not say he is not an NHL head coach I said to suggest he is one of the best in the league is pretty ludcarious because nothing supports it.  People are going to respond and say he won the Jack Adams so therefore he must be one of the best coaches and I do not agree. The Jack Adams is more about who got their team to over achieve the most and there is no question the Flames over achieve last season.

 

sure let's look at Toronto, keeping in mind IMO Calgary is far more talented than the Leafs were this season.

Leafs had 17 fewer goals against.

Leafs were the better puck possession team. 

They were the better team on the PK to the tune of 7%

The Leafs gave up fewer scoring chances

The Leafs gave up almost 90 fewer high danger scoring chances than the Flames did.

And for good measure and to loss some water on the response of "well the Flames got no goaltending" the Leafs team save percentage was a whopping 1.2% better than the Flames.

 

The only metric the Flames were better than the Leafs in was their PP and even that was by less than 2% with a much more talented team. Babcock did a much better job with the Leafs last year than Hartley did with the Flames. 

[cross16]

Coaches don’t stop pucks, goaltenders do.

The last three years has been a continual dismantling of the team, every move or trade was done with an eye on the future.  Do you think specialty teams, scoring chances and possession metrics would suffer under those circumstances? 

That’s correct, BH is the reigning Jack Adams winner and he will make a difference on the next team he lands in.

 

Bringing in Hamilton was an eye on the future? Frolik? Yes goaltending was bad, but you are ignoring the fact that it wasn't just goaltending, the Flames are bad in multiple major statistics especially defensively. 

 

Keep in mind that while the roster has seen the talent level upgraded the Flames have seen very little improvement in things like scoring chances against, high danger scoring chances against and puck possession. There are team with far less talent that are better off than the Flames are in all of those metrics.

 

Case in point the Leafs. to your point, should the Leafs not have been the worst team in all major statistics becuase what team saw more change? instead they were better than the Flames in basically every major category.

 

Hartley is a fine person, an ok coach and he did what he was brought here to do. He oversaw a rebuild and kept a standard in place but to argue his some great coach that the Flames are making a mistake firing is not supported by any evidence. I actually will be a bit surprised if Hartley gets another NHL head coaching job unless Therrien is fired. I can't see him going anywhere else but Montreal.

[MAC331]

First of all I did not say he is not an NHL head coach I said to suggest he is one of the best in the league is pretty ludcarious because nothing supports it.  People are going to respond and say he won the Jack Adams so therefore he must be one of the best coaches and I do not agree. The Jack Adams is more about who got their team to over achieve the most and there is no question the Flames over achieve last season.

 

sure let's look at Toronto, keeping in mind IMO Calgary is far more talented than the Leafs were this season.

Leafs had 17 fewer goals against.

Leafs were the better puck possession team. 

They were the better team on the PK to the tune of 7%

The Leafs gave up fewer scoring chances

The Leafs gave up almost 90 fewer high danger scoring chances than the Flames did.

And for good measure and to loss some water on the response of "well the Flames got no goaltending" the Leafs team save percentage was a whopping 1.2% better than the Flames.

 

The only metric the Flames were better than the Leafs in was their PP and even that was by less than 2% with a much more talented team. Babcock did a much better job with the Leafs last year than Hartley did with the Flames. 

I would argue that we were not much better than the Leafs overall and ended up where we belonged given the lack of goaltending when the team needed it. Hartley's failure for me has always been the constant experimenting with his pairings and forward lines constantly. In the end I think he would be a better coach with a more veteran experienced team not a rebuilding one.

[redfire11]

BT knew who he was going to hire before firing Hartley.  Gelinas was not firedso you can most likely predict the next coach by his ties with Gelinas.

Still feel it's Boudreau as he just became available.

[CheersMan]

Bringing in Hamilton was an eye on the future? Frolik? Yes goaltending was bad, but you are ignoring the fact that it wasn't just goaltending, the Flames are bad in multiple major statistics especially defensively. 

 

Keep in mind that while the roster has seen the talent level upgraded the Flames have seen very little improvement in things like scoring chances against, high danger scoring chances against and puck possession. There are team with far less talent that are better off than the Flames are in all of those metrics.

 

Case in point the Leafs. to your point, should the Leafs not have been the worst team in all major statistics becuase what team saw more change? instead they were better than the Flames in basically every major category.

 

Hartley is a fine person, an ok coach and he did what he was brought here to do. He oversaw a rebuild and kept a standard in place but to argue his some great coach that the Flames are making a mistake firing is not supported by any evidence. I actually will be a bit surprised if Hartley gets another NHL head coaching job unless Therrien is fired. I can't see him going anywhere else but Montreal.

 

The TML were dead last in the entire league for the only stat that matters “WINS”.

[AlbertaBoy12]

The TML were dead last in the entire league for the only stat that matters “WINS”.

yea cause we were so far ahead of them in the wins category with a much better team.

[cross16]

The TML were dead last in the entire league for the only stat that matters “WINS”.

 

And the Flames were 5th last with what I would call far more talented team than the Leafs....The managed to win a whole 6 more games than the worst team in the league and team that depleted its roster for the 2nd half....

 

And Hartley is one of the best coach in the league how?

[CheersMan]

And the Flames were 5th last with what I would call far more talented team than the Leafs....The managed to win a whole 6 more games than the worst team in the league and team that depleted its roster for the 2nd half....

 

And Hartley is one of the best coach in the league how?

 

I’m not going to dig through meaningless stats to try to support BH qualities and attributes.  If you failed to see what BH has brought to this team then it’s pointless to try to even explain it.

[cross16]

I’m not going to dig through meaningless stats to try to support BH qualities and attributes.  If you failed to see what BH has brought to this team then it’s pointless to try to even explain it.

 

I know what he has brought to the team. He established a working culture and a baseline for a team going through a rebuild. He helped instill some very good habits in a young team. He did some good things.

 

I have never once said he was a terrible coach or that he brought nothing to the team i've actually said the contrary. However, sometimes you arn't a good fit for a team going forward and that where the Flames are with Hartley. As treliving said today Hartley got the Flames as far as he could and now it's time for someone else more qualified, IMO, to take them to the next level. Doesn't mean Hartley didn't leave some positive impact on the team, just wasn't the right guy going forward. 

[phoenix66]

BT knew who he was going to hire before firing Hartley.  Gelinas was not firedso you can most likely predict the next coach by his ties with Gelinas.

Still feel it's Boudreau as he just became available.

Any time a coach is fired its either a) all the assistants snd the new guy hires his own or they let the new guy decide the fate of the assistants

The likely only reason Cloutier was let go too is they come as a set. It allows Bob to take him where he goes

[phoenix66]

I know what he has brought to the team. He established a working culture and a baseline for a team going through a rebuild. He helped instill some very good habits in a young team. He did some good things.

 

I have never once said he was a terrible coach or that he brought nothing to the team i've actually said the contrary. However, sometimes you arn't a good fit for a team going forward and that where the Flames are with Hartley. As treliving said today Hartley got the Flames as far as he could and now it's time for someone else more qualified, IMO, to take them to the next level. Doesn't mean Hartley didn't leave some positive impact on the team, just wasn't the right guy going forward.

I see it like pitchers in baseball. You have your starters who go as deep as they can, middle relief and set up guys then your closer who shuts it down.

In his day, keenan was a closer..he took the team that was close and took them to the finals

Terry crisp was a closer

Hartley for the most part is a starter... he set the foundation, got the kids going, taught them work ethic and responsibility...all great things and qualities in a coach

Now we need the middle relief guy...take that work ethic and get them playing a better system, if the rebuild goes as planned the coach we are about to hire likely wont be our cup coach

So basically by saying hartley had to go, or saying hes not the guy goung forward isnt a knock on him, he did a great job here...just time to bring in the middle relief guy

[DirtyDeeds]

BT just used one of his cat lives with the Hartley firing.  He’s one step closer to the exit door as well, tic-toc, tic-toc.

I agree. He could have kept this card for next season either early on, if the start was slow again, or end of next season when BH's contract expired.

 

I don't think this move is a bad one because it just hurries up the process. Whether he is successful in finding the right coach is a new ballgame.

[DirtyDeeds]

Hartley has the Jack Adams and he has "The Ring". Average or just fair coaches don't have "The Ring". I doubt whoever replaces him will have "The Ring"

 

I won't go more into my thoughts about whether I thought he was good or a top coach because it really doesn't matter now.

 

BT said he was a good coach. BT seems to be the God around the Flames so Bob Hartley must be a good coach. Just not the coach he thinks we should have.

 

Well BT you had better get us some goaltending or the next coach won't fare any better.

[kehatch]

I said it in another thread, but this wasn't just about the roster or the success of Hartley. Treliving wants the Flames to play a certain way and the players to be deployed in a certain way. Hartley and Treliving clearly didn't see it the same way so there is a split.

Hartley has also had an expiry date everywhere he has coached in the NHL. You don't have to read that hard between the lines to see he was starting to lose the room.

Neither is necessarily an indictment of his ability as a coach.

[Heartbreaker]

And the Flames were 5th last with what I would call far more talented team than the Leafs....The managed to win a whole 6 more games than the worst team in the league and team that depleted its roster for the 2nd half....

 

It's true! JVR scraped his knee, and was deactivated. It was a joke in TO this year. 

 

Love. 

[420since1974]

I said it in another thread, but this wasn't just about the roster or the success of Hartley. Treliving wants the Flames to play a certain way and the players to be deployed in a certain way. Hartley and Treliving clearly didn't see it the same way so there is a split.

Hartley has also had an expiry date everywhere he has coached in the NHL. You don't have to read that hard between the lines to see he was starting to lose the room.

Neither is necessarily an indictment of his ability as a coach.

 

 

 

Re: Expiry Dates

 

"The average shelf life of an NHL coach is about 2.4 years. "

http://www.jewelsfromthecrown.com/2016/4/27/11499460/should-the-los-angeles-kings-extend-darryl-sutter-contract

 

"NHL coaches average three years on the job "

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/story/2012-02-29/managers-coaches-tenure/53376918/1

[CheersMan]

I agree. He could have kept this card for next season either early on, if the start was slow again, or end of next season when BH's contract expired.

 

I don't think this move is a bad one because it just hurries up the process. Whether he is successful in finding the right coach is a new ballgame.

 

With the subtraction of Russell, Jones, Hudler, Ramo(?), Colborne(?) plus (?) we will arguably be worse off next season regardless of who the coach is.  Russell’s replacement is no better, Jones and Hulder will not be replaced by an external equivalent because their $’s will be eaten up by JHG and Monahan.  Colborne may have priced himself out of here as well.  Ortio may be back, but that’s not an improvement.  I don’t see Ramo back either and his replacement may not be much better.

 

BH was towing the franchise line.  We heard him countless times say “We are Investing in the Kids”……..that means ice time, making mistakes and learning on the job while our GM gets the complimentary players in place.

 

The Flames had BH signed for another year, I would have preferred if they had stayed with him, then re-evaluate the relationship after next season. 

 

I don’t buy this BS that Hartley’s shelf life came to an end either.  BH had the player’s attention, they respected and played for him (see Russells and Bouma’s bruises).  The last player that didn’t never lasted long (O’Brien?).

 

I think the specialty team excuse is BS as well.  People can look at all the stats they want but specialty teams comes down to out working the other team, plain and simple.  Even though our players were said to be in league top shape, I’m not so sure BH had the personnel to consistently out work other teams.

   

I don’t see next season as being our year either, still too many bad $’s tied up in the wrong players.  The year after we should be looking good.  I believe BT prematurely and un-necessarily removed a very good coach too soon.  He has now placed a huge amount of pressure on himself to reach the playoffs next season.  If he thought missing this year was a huge failure, then missing next season will be failure x 3.  IMO, BT played his “Trump Card” too soon.

[Da4RealDeal]

I have to disagree with somethings, Russell's replacement is a huge improvement. He plays way more physical, and most of all doesn't allow the other team to take as many shots as Russell. He is way cheaper and still has room for improvement. 

 

There were many times last year the CH split lines up once they had one game without scoring. He played the wrong goalie so often like he was trying to lose. 

 

There are a few guys we will not see back but I belie they will keep Colburne.

 

I don't think losing BH is going to hurt us at all. I welcome the change. 

[MAC331]

With the subtraction of Russell, Jones, Hudler, Ramo(?), Colborne(?) plus (?) we will arguably be worse off next season regardless of who the coach is.  Russell’s replacement is no better, Jones and Hulder will not be replaced by an external equivalent because their $’s will be eaten up by JHG and Monahan.  Colborne may have priced himself out of here as well.  Ortio may be back, but that’s not an improvement.  I don’t see Ramo back either and his replacement may not be much better.

 

BH was towing the franchise line.  We heard him countless times say “We are Investing in the Kids”……..that means ice time, making mistakes and learning on the job while our GM gets the complimentary players in place.

 

The Flames had BH signed for another year, I would have preferred if they had stayed with him, then re-evaluate the relationship after next season. 

 

I don’t buy this BS that Hartley’s shelf life came to an end either.  BH had the player’s attention, they respected and played for him (see Russells and Bouma’s bruises).  The last player that didn’t never lasted long (O’Brien?).

 

I think the specialty team excuse is BS as well.  People can look at all the stats they want but specialty teams comes down to out working the other team, plain and simple.  Even though our players were said to be in league top shape, I’m not so sure BH had the personnel to consistently out work other teams.

   

I don’t see next season as being our year either, still too many bad $’s tied up in the wrong players.  The year after we should be looking good.  I believe BT prematurely and un-necessarily removed a very good coach too soon.  He has now placed a huge amount of pressure on himself to reach the playoffs next season.  If he thought missing this year was a huge failure, then missing next season will be failure x 3.  IMO, BT played his “Trump Card” too soon.

Bit presumptuous don't you think. Colborne hasn't priced himself yet at all. Hudler and Jones, you honestly think these two are irreplaceable ? there is nothing to say Ortio remains and come on I think we should be able to improve on Ramo.

BT is trying to make this team better and if he wants them to play a different way then I believe the change is warranted. This is just the beginning because BT has a lot of work ahead of himself.

[travel_dude]

With the subtraction of Russell, Jones, Hudler, Ramo(?), Colborne(?) plus (?) we will arguably be worse off next season regardless of who the coach is.  Russell’s replacement is no better, Jones and Hulder will not be replaced by an external equivalent because their $’s will be eaten up by JHG and Monahan.  Colborne may have priced himself out of here as well.  Ortio may be back, but that’s not an improvement.  I don’t see Ramo back either and his replacement may not be much better.

 

BH was towing the franchise line.  We heard him countless times say “We are Investing in the Kids”……..that means ice time, making mistakes and learning on the job while our GM gets the complimentary players in place.

 

The Flames had BH signed for another year, I would have preferred if they had stayed with him, then re-evaluate the relationship after next season. 

 

I don’t buy this BS that Hartley’s shelf life came to an end either.  BH had the player’s attention, they respected and played for him (see Russells and Bouma’s bruises).  The last player that didn’t never lasted long (O’Brien?).

 

I think the specialty team excuse is BS as well.  People can look at all the stats they want but specialty teams comes down to out working the other team, plain and simple.  Even though our players were said to be in league top shape, I’m not so sure BH had the personnel to consistently out work other teams.

   

I don’t see next season as being our year either, still too many bad $’s tied up in the wrong players.  The year after we should be looking good.  I believe BT prematurely and un-necessarily removed a very good coach too soon.  He has now placed a huge amount of pressure on himself to reach the playoffs next season.  If he thought missing this year was a huge failure, then missing next season will be failure x 3.  IMO, BT played his “Trump Card” too soon.

 

A couple of points...

 

The team is really only down Hudler from last season.  He will be replaced.  Jones was nothing special.  Russell for Jokipakka is not that much of a loss.  He wasn't able to handle bigger guys in the D-zone.  We will be down 2 or 3 goalies, but they all had forgettable seasons.  Whoever we get for a starter will be infinitely better than the goalie circus we had.

 

Ortio was one of those kids that was supposed to be allowed to make mistakes.  Well that didn't happen.  What about Bennett?  Didn't exactly get much PP time did he?

 

Specialty teams.  Interesting that you think it was 100% on the players.  No responsibility on the coaches?  What systems did they rely on?  Dump and chase to regain possession.  Or give it to Johnny.  Teams adjust to that.  How about D-zone coverage?  

 

I wouldn't use Bouma and Russell's bruises as proof that BT had the room.  Bouma plays that way because that is what he knows and how he has to, to be in the league.  

 

How many years did you want to wait?  Hartley had 3 years with one year not in the bottom 5.  

[conundrumed]

A couple of points...

 

The team is really only down Hudler from last season.  He will be replaced.  Jones was nothing special.  Russell for Jokipakka is not that much of a loss.  He wasn't able to handle bigger guys in the D-zone.  We will be down 2 or 3 goalies, but they all had forgettable seasons.  Whoever we get for a starter will be infinitely better than the goalie circus we had.

 

Ortio was one of those kids that was supposed to be allowed to make mistakes.  Well that didn't happen.  What about Bennett?  Didn't exactly get much PP time did he?

 

Specialty teams.  Interesting that you think it was 100% on the players.  No responsibility on the coaches?  What systems did they rely on?  Dump and chase to regain possession.  Or give it to Johnny.  Teams adjust to that.  How about D-zone coverage?  

 

I wouldn't use Bouma and Russell's bruises as proof that BT had the room.  Bouma plays that way because that is what he knows and how he has to, to be in the league.  

 

How many years did you want to wait?  Hartley had 3 years with one year not in the bottom 5.  

I'm with cheers, this year was a testament to how "good" this team actually is.

Not very.

Goal was Treliving's fault and still is. The rest of the roster is too.

"he took the team as far as he could. He took YOUR team as far as god almighty could.

[kehatch]

I'm with cheers, this year was a testament to how "good" this team actually is.

Not very.

Goal was Treliving's fault and still is. The rest of the roster is too.

"he took the team as far as he could. He took YOUR team as far as god almighty could.

Treliving inherited a team in a rebuild. I think your expectations are way out of alignment if you think a lack of success is Treliving fault.

The Flames have explained why they terminated Hartley and it wasn't because of standings results. Your way to hung up on the standings. If the coach isn't a fit he isn't a fit.

[conundrumed]

Treliving inherited a team in a rebuild. I think your expectations are way out of alignment if you think a lack of success is Treliving fault.

The Flames have explained why they terminated Hartley and it wasn't because of standings results. Your way to hung up on the standings. If the coach isn't a fit he isn't a fit.

Well at least I know what I'm hung up on now. I thought it was the roster.

How's the kool-aid, is it Black and Blue?

[kehatch]

Well at least I know what I'm hung up on now. I thought it was the roster.

How's the kool-aid, is it Black and Blue?

If you think I drink the koolaid then clearly you aren't familiar with my posts. But the reality is the Flames are rebuilding and getting bent out of shape over a poor season is silly.