Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[travel_dude]

I think its pretty fair to say that if BT doesn't sign engelland the flames don't make the playoffs so I dont' think is fair to call that a bad signing at all. i get most fans dont like him and i get the "advanced stats" arn't in his favor but perosnally i like him and think he is a very good fit here. yes his AAV is a bit too high but thats FA, and the fact is the Flames need top 6 NHL dman which I think englelland clealry is.

 

Raymond, i liked the player, didn't like the term and still don't like the term. i get why they signed him but i don't get the 3rd year. Could have stomached 2 years but the 3rd was tough. Not a great signing by BT but not an awful one teither. I like the Bolig trade personally. wish they gave up a 4th instead of a 3rd and i thought the 3rd price tag was a tad too high bu i also like what he brought, and continues to bring, to a young team.

 

Treliving IMO has yet to really make a glaring mistake. he's made little ones here and there that "Might" hurt the club in 2-3 years time but nothing super glaring which is what i like about him. sure we can argue he overpaid for someone here, or gave too much term there, but i don't think there is a big red X marking any of his transactions so far.

 

This probably isn't the place for it, but the reason the Flames made the playoffs was that the first line was the highest scoring line in the NHL for the month of March.  Having Engelland meant that Brodie had to play with Engelland not on his normal side. 

 

Saying that, BT managed to get us above the cap floor.  The term and AAV for both Raymond and Engelland is going to hurt the most, come year 3.

[cross16]

This probably isn't the place for it, but the reason the Flames made the playoffs was that the first line was the highest scoring line in the NHL for the month of March.  Having Engelland meant that Brodie had to play with Engelland not on his normal side. 

 

Saying that, BT managed to get us above the cap floor.  The term and AAV for both Raymond and Engelland is going to hurt the most, come year 3.

 

The reason i say that though is who takes the minutes for Gio? You would have one of Schlemko, Potter, or proabably wotherpsoon who all would have had to play significant minutes. i'm not sure the Flames get in if thats the case.

 

Not saying Englelland was the main reason or a primary reason, but i think what he added to the flames depth defiently helped them make the playoffs. i think people are already forgetting just how shallow this d core was prior to the start of last season.

[kehatch]

Making the playoffs doesn't justify bad contracts. Yes we needed defensive depth to survive the loss of Giordano. But that doesn't mean we needed to pay too much to sign Engelland.

[cross16]

Making the playoffs doesn't justify bad contracts. Yes we needed defensive depth to survive the loss of Giordano. But that doesn't mean we needed to pay too much to sign Engelland.

 

 

Sorry kehatch but this makes no sense to me. the pont of the game is to win so if signing a player helps you win in what way is that a bad deal? i would agree if the Flames went way above market to sign him but they didn't. I've read from more then one source that were several teams in on Englelland all offering similar money.

 

i get you don't like him and i do so we will never see eye to eye and thats fine i just don't understand this view. I think if you fill a need by paying someone market value and that player helps you win then you've done a good job. Is it a good contract? no but that doesnt' automatically make it a bad one IMO.

[conundrumed]

 

Not saying Englelland was the main reason or a primary reason, but i think what he added to the flames depth defiently helped them make the playoffs. i think people are already forgetting just how shallow this d core was prior to the start of last season.

I've gotta say cross, you haven't wavered on Engelland like ever.

I have a ton, but there you are, being so grounded again!

Engelland has a lot of limitations, but he also just walked onto a crappy team last year not knowing what to expect.

We far exceeded expectations, and you're right. It would be pretty indignant to think Engelland deserves zero credit.

Paid too much, but really, likely only $0.5mil too much.

I considered Engelland "waiting for Wotherspoon", and in reality, we're still waiting.

For me at least, it's time to cut him a little slack.

I never mind saying I'm wrong, just need convincing.

Thanks!

[Flame111]

With a Cap Crunch coming thought it would be worthwhile to gauge how people felt about BT's contracts. 

Term and $ matter. So you may not like the cost of a signing but because the term is so short it doesn't really matter or vice-versa...

 

Grade away   

 

 

 

Signings / Waivers:

 

2014

 

Mason Raymond - 3yrs @ 3.15

Jonas Hiller - 2yrs @ 4.5

Deryk Engelland - 3yrs @ 2.9 

Devon Setoguchi - 1yr @ 1.75

Kris Russell - 2 years @ 2.6 million 

Joe Colburne - 2 yrs 1.275

Joni Ortio  - 2 yrs @ 600K

T.J Brodie - 5 yrs @ 4.65

Potter - 1 yr @ 700K

Diaz - 1yr @ 750K 

David Schlemko  (waivers)

 

( Coach Hartley to a multi-year deal )

 

2015

 

Mikael Backlund - 3 years @ 3.75

Michael Frolik - 5 years @ 4.3 

Dougie Hamilton - 6 years @ 5.75

Karri Ramo - 1 year @ 3.8

Lance Bouma - 3 years @ 2.2

Josh Jooris - 1 year @ 975K

Paul Byron - 1 year @ 900K

[conundrumed]

I have a hard time criticizing his moves at this point. The hindsight thing on his deals last year to reach the floor pretty much goes out the window when put in context.

3 years of Raymond I wasn't very fond of, but I wouldn't have taken Raymond period. But the cap floor and filling positions...

My only real criticism is likely hindsight also. If you aren't sure where the prospects are at, keep the deals to a max term of 2 yrs.

The 3 yr terms from last yr are in the way now, I believe. We're heading into camp with <2mil in cap after signing Ferland should no other moves be made.

Hiller: underrated signing. Finding consistency in net was a big boon for us last yr. It took 4.5, it worked imho.

Brodie: stellar signing. Brodie was in the midst of a great season, good term at very fair value.

Russell: it became a value signing due to Russell. This year will show more.

Ortio: low $$ for a 1-way in the 2nd yr. Crafty signing.

The rest of 2014: Again, circumstance was an issue.

2015

Backlund: This is a proper bridge deal. Fair value. Between confidence and IR, Backlund has an opportunity to give us a great return on a interim 2nd and solid 3C.

Hamilton: I believe this is as cheap as he could possibly come. Love the deal, love the term, love the NTC doesn't kick in until year 5. Another crafty signing.

Frolik: By Tre's own account, this was the sole FA target, no plan B. I think the $$$ are a bit high, but if you're the GM and think, "this player will really help us", you've likely weighed what needed weighing. I view it as a "wait and see" signing.

Ramo: 1 yr @ $3.8 when we can afford it. Glad we have the same tandem another yr.

Bouma: 3 at $2.2 is okay for OUR BEST bottom 6 winger, but he has to be that.

Jooris/Byron: Great utility(at worst) for under a mil each.

 

All in all, I'm really happy and see our GM puts in a ton of work crafting up some contracts that work for everyone.

Past his 1st year and getting to know what he has, I love his work.

Mixing in "show me" deals with Nakladl, Morrisson, Byron, Jooris is a plan I really like also.

I find it hard to be critical at this point.

[cccsberg]

I have a hard time criticizing his moves at this point. The hindsight thing on his deals last year to reach the floor pretty much goes out the window when put in context.

3 years of Raymond I wasn't very fond of, but I wouldn't have taken Raymond period. But the cap floor and filling positions...

My only real criticism is likely hindsight also. If you aren't sure where the prospects are at, keep the deals to a max term of 2 yrs.

The 3 yr terms from last yr are in the way now, I believe. We're heading into camp with <2mil in cap after signing Ferland should no other moves be made.

Hiller: underrated signing. Finding consistency in net was a big boon for us last yr. It took 4.5, it worked imho.

Brodie: stellar signing. Brodie was in the midst of a great season, good term at very fair value.

Russell: it became a value signing due to Russell. This year will show more.

Ortio: low $$ for a 1-way in the 2nd yr. Crafty signing.

The rest of 2014: Again, circumstance was an issue.

2015

Backlund: This is a proper bridge deal. Fair value. Between confidence and IR, Backlund has an opportunity to give us a great return on a interim 2nd and solid 3C.

Hamilton: I believe this is as cheap as he could possibly come. Love the deal, love the term, love the NTC doesn't kick in until year 5. Another crafty signing.

Frolik: By Tre's own account, this was the sole FA target, no plan B. I think the $$$ are a bit high, but if you're the GM and think, "this player will really help us", you've likely weighed what needed weighing. I view it as a "wait and see" signing.

Ramo: 1 yr @ $3.8 when we can afford it. Glad we have the same tandem another yr.

Bouma: 3 at $2.2 is okay for OUR BEST bottom 6 winger, but he has to be that.

Jooris/Byron: Great utility(at worst) for under a mil each.

 

All in all, I'm really happy and see our GM puts in a ton of work crafting up some contracts that work for everyone.

Past his 1st year and getting to know what he has, I love his work.

Mixing in "show me" deals with Nakladl, Morrisson, Byron, Jooris is a plan I really like also.

I find it hard to be critical at this point.

Pretty much agree, every signing was well thought out and reasonable in context of the team needs and prospect knowledge at the time. Even with the current space crunch, a couple key trades and we're fine even with several prospects forcing their ways onto the team.

[Flame111]

Signings / Waivers:

 

2014

 

Mason Raymond - 3yrs @ 3.15 - F (This is now a problem contract / although perhaps defendable at the time it is now clearly an F contract mainly because of term.

Jonas Hiller - 2yrs @ 4.5 - B+ (Addressed emergency G situation and although a little high in costs / UFA market price)

Deryk Engelland - 3yrs @ 2.9 - F (Bad contract and signing - )

Devon Setoguchi - 1yr @ 1.75-

Kris Russell - 2 years @ 2.6 million - B+ 

Joe Colburne - 2 yrs 1.275 - B

Joni Ortio  - 2 yrs @ 600K - A

T.J Brodie - 5 yrs @ 4.65 - A+ 

Potter - 1 yr @ 700k

Diaz - 1yr @ 750K 

David Schlemko  (waivers) - A very good pick-up for free

 

( Coach Hartley to a multi-year deal )

 

2015

 

Mikael Backlund - 3 years @ 3.75 - B+ (Good term, good dollars and a solid player (only concern is injury history)

Michael Frolik - 5 years @ 4.3 - B (Little high in price and term but also this is what happens on the UFA market - fills hole on RW)

Dougie Hamilton - 6 years @ 5.75 - A+ (Could not be better - cost below all estimates and a top pairing player is locked up for term) 

Karri Ramo - 1 year @ 3.8 A (Covers the G need for the next season - gets high grade because of 1 year term) 

Lance Bouma - 3 years @ 2.2 C- (Overpay and too long of term / other options were available) 

Josh Jooris - 1 year @ 975K - A - good term and cost

Paul Byron - 1 year @ 900K - A - good term and cost

[cccsberg]

Signings / Waivers:

 

2014

 

Mason Raymond - 3yrs @ 3.15 - F (This is now a problem contract / although perhaps defendable at the time it is now clearly an F contract mainly because of term.

Jonas Hiller - 2yrs @ 4.5 - B+ (Addressed emergency G situation and although a little high in costs / UFA market price)

Deryk Engelland - 3yrs @ 2.9 - F (Bad contract and signing - )

Devon Setoguchi - 1yr @ 1.75-

Kris Russell - 2 years @ 2.6 million - B+ 

Joe Colburne - 2 yrs 1.275 - B

Joni Ortio  - 2 yrs @ 600K - A

T.J Brodie - 5 yrs @ 4.65 - A+ 

Potter - 1 yr @ 700k

Diaz - 1yr @ 750K 

David Schlemko  (waivers) - A very good pick-up for free

 

( Coach Hartley to a multi-year deal )

 

2015

 

Mikael Backlund - 3 years @ 3.75 - B+ (Good term, good dollars and a solid player (only concern is injury history)

Michael Frolik - 5 years @ 4.3 - B (Little high in price and term but also this is what happens on the UFA market - fills hole on RW)

Dougie Hamilton - 6 years @ 5.75 - A+ (Could not be better - cost below all estimates and a top pairing player is locked up for term) 

Karri Ramo - 1 year @ 3.8 A (Covers the G need for the next season - gets high grade because of 1 year term) 

Lance Bouma - 3 years @ 2.2 C- (Overpay and too long of term / other options were available) 

Josh Jooris - 1 year @ 975K - A - good term and cost

Paul Byron - 1 year @ 900K - A - good term and cost

It's funny how intertwined a GM is with players' future performance versus the realities of a situation at the time of a signing. Looking at Raymond as an example he was signed as a very fast 20 goal scorer who finally got his game back on track with the TML, and a local boy coming home. For what he offered not a bad deal at all at the time, especially considering the hole he was filling for the newly rebuilding Flames, also helping them get to the Cap floor. If rated then, probably a B rating as a signing. A year later, after he struggled with injuries and scoring with the Flames, and especially after getting passed by upcoming prospects who over-performed reasonable expectations, the signing looks bad and he looks excess but still 2 years remaining on the contract.

That's the nature of the game, and the fickle fans with short memories who only want to hear about the here and now. But strange non-the-less. As far as BT goes he's done really well so far. Now let's get Ferland and Giordano signed and a couple players moved out and then let's bring on the Young a Stars Tournamentin Penticton.....

[robrob1974]

It's funny how intertwined a GM is with players' future performance versus the realities of a situation at the time of a signing. Looking at Raymond as an example he was signed as a very fast 20 goal scorer who finally got his game back on track with the TML, and a local boy coming home. For what he offered not a bad deal at all at the time, especially considering the hole he was filling for the newly rebuilding Flames, also helping them get to the Cap floor. If rated then, probably a B rating as a signing. A year later, after he struggled with injuries and scoring with the Flames, and especially after getting passed by upcoming prospects who over-performed reasonable expectations, the signing looks bad and he looks excess but still 2 years remaining on the contract.

That's the nature of the game, and the fickle fans with short memories who only want to hear about the here and now. But strange non-the-less. As far as BT goes he's done really well so far. Now let's get Ferland and Giordano signed and a couple players moved out and then let's bring on the Young a Stars Tournamentin Penticton.....

I was extremely happy when the Leafs signed Raymond because it meant the rumours of the Flames signing him didnt come to fruition.

After a "good year" with Toronto, they didnt sign him.

When we rumoured to be in on him again, i was begging us not to sign him. Never liked the guy, i have always thought he was too soft and a glider. I never wanted him and i fully regretted it when it happened and do now.

I remember a lot were excited to sign him though. He doesnt offer enough for me.

[redfire11]

One thing that BT has disappointed me is in the NTC's with the new signings. Hamilton, Frolik, Raymond, Stajan. With the threat of being traded it keeps the players honest.

[travel_dude]

One thing that BT has disappointed me is in the NTC's with the new signings. Hamilton, Frolik, Raymond, Stajan. With the threat of being traded it keeps the players honest.

Frolik and Stajan are limited/modified NTC.

Dougie is limited NTC in year 5 and 6.

Big deal.

[conundrumed]

It's funny how intertwined a GM is with players' future performance versus the realities of a situation at the time of a signing. Looking at Raymond as an example he was signed as a very fast 20 goal scorer who finally got his game back on track with the TML, and a local boy coming home. For what he offered not a bad deal at all at the time, especially considering the hole he was filling for the newly rebuilding Flames, also helping them get to the Cap floor. If rated then, probably a B rating as a signing. A year later, after he struggled with injuries and scoring with the Flames, and especially after getting passed by upcoming prospects who over-performed reasonable expectations, the signing looks bad and he looks excess but still 2 years remaining on the contract.

That's the nature of the game, and the fickle fans with short memories who only want to hear about the here and now. But strange non-the-less. As far as BT goes he's done really well so far. Now let's get Ferland and Giordano signed and a couple players moved out and then let's bring on the Young a Stars Tournamentin Penticton.....

Alternatively, I hated the Raymond signing. "He's a good Cochrane boy", yada-yada.

I didn't like signing him at the time, I don't like it now.

Raymond's right up there with Burrows for being a whiny little chunk of whatev..

Might be your team, sure ain't mine.

Raymond alone can change my opinion. But it'll involve not cheating up-ice on the effort, which I honestly wonder if he's capable.

Hopefully he proves me wrong, but terribly unlikely.

[robrob1974]

One thing that BT has disappointed me is in the NTC's with the new signings. Hamilton, Frolik, Raymond, Stajan. With the threat of being traded it keeps the players honest.

Stajan was signed by Burke, no?

[cross16]

Its basically impossible these days to sign a high profile player without a NTC. That's just the market you operate in now so if Treliving and the Flames refuse to use NTCs or NMCs then they won't be getting many guys to come and player here. Its unfortuate becuase i agree they should be sparce but thats not the marketplace.

 

Having said like, like someone just mentioned, they are typically limited NTCs and that i'm fine with. As long as you have the flexability to trade a player to at least a handfull of teams iwthout their consent its enough to keep yourself from being backed ino a corner.

[travel_dude]

Its basically impossible these days to sign a high profile player without a NTC. That's just the market you operate in now so if Treliving and the Flames refuse to use NTCs or NMCs then they won't be getting many guys to come and player here. Its unfortuate becuase i agree they should be sparce but thats not the marketplace.

 

Having said like, like someone just mentioned, they are typically limited NTCs and that i'm fine with. As long as you have the flexability to trade a player to at least a handfull of teams iwthout their consent its enough to keep yourself from being backed ino a corner.

 

Mostly you save cap dollars by giving an NTC to a player.  It doesn't prevent a trade, but gives them a feeling of security as long as they enjoy playing here.  NMC are worse; can't demote the player.

[cross16]

i'm not even sure you really save much $ anymore i just think its part of the package. I think you use to save money but now they are so common place its just assumed that if you are a big target you need to be talking the right language and that means a NTC. I bet some players now don't even initiate converstions unless one is in there.

[Wreckening]

Well with the signing of Gio this just puts a capper on a terrific off season by Treliving in my opinion. Lots of talk was that it was going to take 8 or 9 million to extend him and Treliving comes up with this. Brilliant. 

[kehatch]

Well with the signing of Gio this just puts a capper on a terrific off season by Treliving in my opinion. Lots of talk was that it was going to take 8 or 9 million to extend him and Treliving comes up with this. Brilliant. 

 

He is really knocking it out of the park with his top end players.  The Brodie, Giordano, and Backlund extensions were great.  The Frolik signing was good value.  The Hamilton acquisition and signing was a game changer.  

[travel_dude]

He is really knocking it out of the park with his top end players.  The Brodie, Giordano, and Backlund extensions were great.  The Frolik signing was good value.  The Hamilton acquisition and signing was a game changer.  

 

This season's challenges will determine his true value.  He has done things so far that few GM's are capable of, but trimming the roster and various expiring contracts are the big challenge now.  2015/16 is not a do-or-die season to eliminate the bad contracts, but finding a taker for Engelland and Raymond will be crucial next season.  Buyout is the last resort, but at least those guys only will have one season remaining.

[cccsberg]

This season's challenges will determine his true value.  He has done things so far that few GM's are capable of, but trimming the roster and various expiring contracts are the big challenge now.  2015/16 is not a do-or-die season to eliminate the bad contracts, but finding a taker for Engelland and Raymond will be crucial next season.  Buyout is the last resort, but at least those guys only will have one season remaining.

Trades:  A- (Hamilton, Shore, Kylington, Reinhart, Bollig, Baertchi)

Home Run winner(s), Toughness, moved Redundant/Disgruntled pieces...

 

UFA signings: B+ (Hiller, Ramo, Morrison, Nakladal, Engelland, Setoguchi, Raymond, Diaz, Schlemko, Hathaway, Frolik)

Meeting Cap Floor, Toughness, Scoring, D Depth & Upgrading Possession.  Underestimated Prospect Readiness.  

 

RFA signings: B+ (Bouma, Jooris, Byron, Agostino, Van Brabant)

Solid signings at good Cap rates

 

Prospect Signings: A (Carroll, Kylington, Kanzig)

Advancing potential key prospects

 

Contract Extensions: A+ (Giordano, Backlund, TJ Brodie, Hamilton, Ortio)

Core pieces for LT at Under Market Value

 

Prospect Advancement: A- (Jooris, Ferland(?), Gaudreau, Bennett, Granlund, Shore, Ortio)

 

Clearing Roster Spots: C+ (Potter, McGratton, Setoguchi)

Limited movement, dramatically more REQUIRED.

 

Drafting: A (Bennett, McDonald, Smith, Hickey, Carroll, Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane...)

 

Cap Management: B+

Resisted overpaying vets except for Engelland, has a definite visible pathway forward to sign key Core pieces in the next two years. 

 

Overall I'd say BT has done an outstanding job his first full year on the job.  The one area of "weakness" has been clearing roster spots for emerging prospects which also happens to be his current most pressing need. He has a plethora of options for the team at all positions but may be hindered by too many guys, and too many contracts.  He currently needs to lose 2-3 contracts just for the status quo with limited prospect graduations, and even more should Hathaway, Poirier, Wotherspoon, Ortio and etc make a solid case for full-time NHL come Training Camp.  If no trades are made prior to season opening, several vets likely to be Waived (and potentially lost for nothing), and you plug the Prospect Pipeline when several players are prepped and ready to emerge.  

 

This was a foreseeable need last Summer and unfortunately Raymond and Setoguchi were added, though secondary scoring was an issue at the time and Jooris had not yet emerged.  This Summer it has become Critical and definitely needs to be addressed asap.

[robrob1974]

I wouldn't say clearing roster spots for emerging prospects is a weakness. Something this organization has preached over the last year is not rushing prospects. There is no harm in developing players in the AHL. It is after all a development league.

Some would say, the NHL is not the ideal place to develop your players.

If we weren't in a rebuild, does anyone think monahan would have still played his rookie year the season he did? Or would he have played a year later?

I think a year later.

I think they did make room for prospects. They made room for Jooris when Jooris forced their hand. In the end Granlund wasn't fully developed. Ferland didn't look ready until the playoffs.

We have to ask, where do the prospects project career wise and should they develop on the third line if they're capable of it even though they project top6? Can the be regular contributors?

[cccsberg]

I wouldn't say clearing roster spots for emerging prospects is a weakness. Something this organization has preached over the last year is not rushing prospects. There is no harm in developing players in the AHL. It is after all a development league.

Some would say, the NHL is not the ideal place to develop your players.

If we weren't in a rebuild, does anyone think monahan would have still played his rookie year the season he did? Or would he have played a year later?

I think a year later.

I think they did make room for prospects. They made room for Jooris when Jooris forced their hand. In the end Granlund wasn't fully developed. Ferland didn't look ready until the playoffs.

We have to ask, where do the prospects project career wise and should they develop on the third line if they're capable of it even though they project top6? Can the be regular contributors?

Well they have made some space, but not enough.  We currently have 3-4 excess bodies with no spots available, and that's not including any more prospects graduating.  The excess is including Ferland, Shore, Granlund and Ortio so I guess if you are of the view they are not ready then you would be fine with the current situation.  I think they are, and Raymond, Bollig, Engelland( Nakladal coming in...) and Jones are being 'gifted' spots others deserve.  

 

I guess we will see come TC, and whether Poirier, Wotherspoon and Hathaway, plus the aforementioned can force their way onto the team or not.  From what we saw last year, not likely, barring massive numbers of LT injuries like last year which finally gave Jooris the chance he had already earned.

[kehatch]

I wouldn't say clearing roster spots for emerging prospects is a weakness. Something this organization has preached over the last year is not rushing prospects. There is no harm in developing players in the AHL. It is after all a development league.

Some would say, the NHL is not the ideal place to develop your players.

If we weren't in a rebuild, does anyone think monahan would have still played his rookie year the season he did? Or would he have played a year later?

I think a year later.

I think they did make room for prospects. They made room for Jooris when Jooris forced their hand. In the end Granlund wasn't fully developed. Ferland didn't look ready until the playoffs.

We have to ask, where do the prospects project career wise and should they develop on the third line if they're capable of it even though they project top6? Can the be regular contributors?

 

I agree the Flames have walked the talk re "always earned, never given". This includes giving roster spots to prospects that have earned it.  But you can't deny that we have too many players either.  

 

At goal we have three waiver eligible guys on one-way contracts.  If Ortio pushes the issue they are going to have to figure out something.  Especially since they want Gilles to get starts in the AHL.  On D we added Hamilton without losing anyone.  Right now we will be sitting 3+ million on the bench to be our 7D.  It is going to be really tough for Morrison, Wotherspoon, or Nakladel to make the roster even if they earn it in camp.  At forward we added Frolik and Bennett without losing anyone.  Guys with NHL experience like Ferland and Granlund will have trouble making the opening night roster let alone hopefuls like Agostino, Hathaway, and Poirier.  

 

That isn't to say there isn't opportunity.  They might park a vet in the AHL or clear a spot via trade.  There is also opportunity when injury strikes.  But the roster is really full right now make the Flames a really tough team to make.  That is a legitimate concern on a team going through a rebuild.