Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[phoenix66]

After reading your above comments I have to agree with JJ when he said:

 

 

I just dont get the extreme other view that Bob would still be here if BT had just gotten him a better goalie. Anybody who thinks our only isdue this year was goaltending needs to give their heads a shake.

We covered up team problems for years with a goalie..what did it get us...how many years of first round exits??

The goal is not to make the playoffs, its to win a cup

Goaltending is not the reason we lost to Anaheim last year, our team wasnt good enough..if anything goaltending kept us in it.

You could argue they gave bob a chance to prove his way works..it did for one year until teams adapted and exposed our system.

Bottom line BT is the GM...he decides what players we employ..its his right to determine what style of team he wants on the ice, its the coaches job to ice that team.

Whst hapoens to a player that doesnt do what the coach wants? He gets benched or cut and nobody goes up in arms. Many a player has floundered in one system then thrived on a different team. This is no different...bob unfortunately could not fit into BTs system, and did not have the ammo to convince otherwise

[DirtyDeeds]

Engelland was a move to make the team a bit tougher on the backend.  The cost should really be the only issue.  As a 6/7 D, he provides that.  Are you going to blame his usage on BT?

 

Personally I think BH's use of Engelland was close to exceptional. When Gio was hurt he filled in top Pairing or wherever he was placed and with just about anyone. He brought some toughness when no other DMan did.

 

Baertschi - the kid wanted out.  He didn't see eye to eye with Hartley.  I don't see him performing any better than he did on the Flames, though.  Still just a complementary piece.  

 

A coach asking a player to play a 2 way game is now a coach's fault? If this is the new thinking let's just dissolve the game now... pack up and move on to women's hockey where there is no feelings hurt and no contact..

 

Brossoit?  Really?  Why are you going there?  Not a BT decision.  Anyway, he has less NHL games than Ortio and still hasn't proved anything.  May be a backup this season in EDM, but I believe they are still looking for a backup.

 

Goaltending - hard to dispute the results.  You commented many times on how Hartley misused Ortio, so I'm not sure why you are coming down on BT now.  The biggest fail on BT's part was believing that Ramo was going to provide stellar goaltending.  Failure to trade Hiller, yes, but he did attempt to move him in the summer.

 

He is coming down on BT because BT was at fault for the crap goaltending trio situation that was the problem most of last year. Everyone knows it, BT admitted he did it wrong and just because the rumoured Hillar deal fell through does not absolve BT for failing. 

 

Moving GlenX was a positive move.  He was an expiring contract with declining play.  The team did just fine without him.  Moving Russell and Hudler this year was also a positive.  Both players had underwhelming results prior to TDL.  Both were thought to be wanting a raise.  We were out of the playoff prior to TDL and 9-8-3 after.  

 

Expectation may not have risen, but you at least expect to be in the top 2/3 of the league, not bottom 5.  Players like Wideman, Hudler, Bouma having great numbers, plus adding a possession player like Frolik and a top 4 defender like Hamilton would give you belief that we are better than a bottom 5 team.  

Everyone was thinking pretty much that we made 2nd round into the playoffs, so the addition of Hamilton and Frolik was an upgrade. Everyone bought into this thinking at the time. WE WERE ALL PRETTY MUCH WRONG. I was among them.

 

Lots of posters around here also said we overachieved too, we did. Most everyone ignored that fact, because we found 2 shiney new toys that were going to take us to the promised land and greater heights... Just about all of us were wrong in those expectations....... 

 

The Flames didn't meet those new expectations and the team under achieved, more in line where they should have been in the first place, considering the crap goaltending we had coming out of the gate.

[DirtyDeeds]

I just dont get the extreme other view that Bob would still be here if BT had just gotten him a better goalie. Anybody who thinks our only isdue this year was goaltending needs to give their heads a shake.

 

Goaltending was our biggest issue this year. You seem to be the only one who does not fully understand the implications of the crap goaltending we got coming out of the gate. Sure we had other issues, all teams have some issues but the goaltending lost us a chance the playoffs. To be fair Ramo got us back into playoff position at about Christmas but the team never kept us on track after that.

 

We covered up team problems for years with a goalie..what did it get us...how many years of first round exits??

Goaltending got us the playoffs back then. Goaltending is what let us down getting there this season.

 

The goal is not to make the playoffs, its to win a cup

 

Actually the goal for every team is first  to make the playoffs. Can't win a cup if you don't make the playoffs. In a cap world making the playoffs has to be the primary goal for regular season.

 

 

Goaltending is not the reason we lost to Anaheim last year, our team wasnt good enough..if anything goaltending kept us in it.

Are you saying our goaltending that didn't lose us the 2nd round to Anaheim last year, was good enough this year? Go compare the stats please and come back and tell me the goaltending was good enough this year....

You could argue they gave bob a chance to prove his way works..it did for one year until teams adapted and exposed our system.

Bottom line BT is the GM...he decides what players we employ..its his right to determine what style of team he wants on the ice, its the coaches job to ice that team.

Whst hapoens to a player that doesnt do what the coach wants? He gets benched or cut and nobody goes up in arms. Many a player has floundered in one system then thrived on a different team. This is no different...bob unfortunately could not fit into BTs system, and did not have the ammo to convince otherwise

Two different unrelated points. Baer was benched and asked to play a 2 way game. He did not respond and was sent down. He then demanded a trade. He hasn't thrived in another system.

[travel_dude]

Everyone was thinking pretty much that we made 2nd round into the playoffs, so the addition of Hamilton and Frolik was an upgrade. Everyone bought into this thinking at the time. WE WERE ALL PRETTY MUCH WRONG. I was among them.

 

Lots of posters around here also said we overachieved too, we did. Most everyone ignored that fact, because we found 2 shiney new toys that were going to take us to the promised land and greater heights... Just about all of us were wrong in those expectations....... 

 

The Flames didn't meet those new expectations and the team under achieved, more in line where they should have been in the first place, considering the crap goaltending we had coming out of the gate.

 

Re: Engelland - I think I was defending BT's signing of Engelland, not saying BH was fired for his usage.  If BH was able to get that much out of Engelland, then both made good choices.

 

Re: Baertschi - I think I basically said that Baertschi asked for a trade, and that he did no better on the Canucks.  Whether he disagreed with Hartley or felt picked on is not important.  End of story, time to move on.

 

Re: Goaltending - BT put 3 goalies at BH's disposal.  How they were used is on Hartley.  As it turned out, the two goalies BT expected better out of were the two that finished the season with the best results.   

[phoenix66]

 

Goaltending was our biggest issue this year. You seem to be the only one who does not fully understand the implications of the crap goaltending we got coming out of the gate. Sure we had other issues, all teams have some issues but the goaltending lost us the playoffs. To be fair Ramo got us back into playoff position at about Christmas but the team never kept us on track after that.

No, I freely admit goaltending was an issue...ill even conceded our biggest one, im just not of the same mindset that it was our ONLY issue..and by putting that shiny new toy in net would have made everything else ok

It woukdnt change the fact that BH coaching style hangs goalies out to dry, that top teams can easily exploit it. All ive ever mainly pointed out is that when your team needs goalies to steal games or youre gonna lose...something is wrong, and its not the goalie.

Flames fans got so used to a goaltending covering up flaws in a system, that we cant recognize the difference when bad goaltending exposes a bad system.

[DirtyDeeds]

No, I freely admit goaltending was an issue...ill even conceded our biggest one, im just not of the same mindset that it was our ONLY issue..and by putting that shiny new toy in net would have made everything else ok

It woukdnt change the fact that BH coaching style hangs goalies out to dry, that top teams can easily exploit it. All ive ever mainly pointed out is that when your team needs goalies to steal games or youre gonna lose...something is wrong, and its not the goalie.

Flames fans got so used to a goaltending covering up flaws in a system, that we cant recognize the difference when bad goaltending exposes a bad system.

Kipper did not cover up a bad system. He covered up a poor team. He allowed a lesser team to achieve goals that they would not normally attain had they had average or poor goaltending.

 

Go back and listen to Lanny's interview when he made those comments. He suggested that Kipper masked a poor team not a poor system.

[jjgallow]

 I think we are making way too much of it..

 

 

I know this might be a bit out of your original context, and my apologies for that....

 

But....the coach Did get fired, and we've got threads on Keegan Kanzig that are longer...so the chatter is understandable, imho...

I really liked Bob, but I definitely understand why he was let go. What I don't understand, though, is how they'll do so much better next year without a lot of roster turnover - that I anticipate will not occur until the following season when a lot of contracts expire. The shortcomings of the player personnel have been discussed at length, but I still have a hard time understanding the timing of this decision.

Love.

 

Well put....basically what I tried to say (with lots and lots of words), condensed into a few short, clear sentences with way better grammar, lol.

[phoenix66]

Kipper did not cover up a bad system. He covered up a poor team. He allowed a lesser team to achieve goals that they would not normally attain had they had average or poor goaltending.

 

Go back and listen to Lanny's interview when he made those comments. He suggested that Kipper masked a poor team not a poor system.

 

 

Same difference-- too many people are asking for better goaltending to mask up a Bad team then.. yes the goaltending needs to be fixed, nobody disputes that .. but they think it will make it all better .

 

BT went and got improved players.. they were used sparingly and poorly 

 

Outside of those 2 new players.. we had basically the same team that went to round 2 the year before.. what changed?

 

Our team was not ready to start the season.. who's that on ?

Our team could no longer mount 3rd period comebacks because teams knew our playbook..who's that on ?

Players from the farm sat and ate popcorn who , we would find out later , were valuable contributors, whos that on ?

Our goaltenders played horribly and nothing was done to change a defensive system to atone for bad goaltending..whos that on ??

 

The only thing i pin on BT , and he pins it on himself too.. was not getting better goaltenders.. which I could see him making the reasonable judgement call that they should have been at least as good as they were the year before.. so he used his ammo to get Hamilton instead

 

 

in the big scheme of things, the system was a bigger problem than just the goaltending 

[DirtyDeeds]

Same difference-- too many people are asking for better goaltending to mask up a Bad team then.. yes the goaltending needs to be fixed, nobody disputes that .. but they think it will make it all better .

 

BT went and got improved players.. they were used sparingly and poorly 

 

Outside of those 2 new players.. we had basically the same team that went to round 2 the year before.. what changed?

 

Our team was not ready to start the season.. who's that on ?

Our team could no longer mount 3rd period comebacks because teams knew our playbook..who's that on ?

Players from the farm sat and ate popcorn who , we would find out later , were valuable contributors, whos that on ?

Our goaltenders played horribly and nothing was done to change a defensive system to atone for bad goaltending..whos that on ??

 

The only thing i pin on BT , and he pins it on himself too.. was not getting better goaltenders.. which I could see him making the reasonable judgement call that they should have been at least as good as they were the year before.. so he used his ammo to get Hamilton instead

 

 

in the big scheme of things, the system was a bigger problem than just the goaltending 

Like I said, JJ was right you should be BT media guy.

 

You can try and spin things any way you like, but goaltending was the biggest problem with our team this season, not systems. If you get the same level of goaltending(easily last in the whole league) out of the gate again next year I don't care what system you have in place the Flames will fail to make the playoffs again.

 

In the big scheme of things(making the playoffs) goaltending was the biggest, main reason, most likely and had the most effect on our "not making the playoffs". Much more than any other reason you care to debate as to why.

 

Our "poor goaltending" is the single largest reason why the goaltending thread is now 250 pages long. 

 

[cross16]

I really liked Bob, but I definitely understand why he was let go. What I don't understand, though, is how they'll do so much better next year without a lot of roster turnover - that I anticipate will not occur until the following season when a lot of contracts expire. The shortcomings of the player personnel have been discussed at length, but I still have a hard time understanding the timing of this decision.

Love.

 

 

I know this might be a bit out of your original context, and my apologies for that....

 

But....the coach Did get fired, and we've got threads on Keegan Kanzig that are longer...so the chatter is understandable, imho...

 

Well put....basically what I tried to say (with lots and lots of words), condensed into a few short, clear sentences with way better grammar, lol.

 

Why is it you think this move was made so the Flames would get better immediately?

 

if you don't think you have the right coach why would wait? I know I've heard people say well give him another year and see if it turns around, or let him start the season and then just fire him if it doesn't work but really what is the point? Quite frankly I think that is irresponsible and stupid to start the season with a coach that you don't believe in almost waiting for him to be fired. I get that is not what either of you are saying specifically but its come up and I just do not understand it.

 

I don't think you fire a coach so you can just get better next year, you fire a coach and bring in your guy so you can continue to get better every year. I dont' think anyone, including Treliving/Burke is making the case that with a new coach suddenly the Flames will be great next year. I personally believe that with a different system (one that can cut down the chances against) and league average goaltening this is a playoff team next year and now can at least continue to build towards a contender. I do not think Hartley was building this team towards being a contender and in fact was taking it the opposite direction. You cannot contend for a cup IMO in today's NHL if you are going to be a bottom tier team in puck possession. 

[travel_dude]

Was is it you think this move was made so the Flames would get better immediately?

 

if you don't think you have the right coach why would wait? I know i've heard people say well give him another year and see if it turns around, or let him start the season and then just fire him if it doesn't work but really what is the point? Quite frankly I think that is irresponsible and stupid to start the season with a coach that you don't believe in almost waiting for him to be fired. I get that is not what either of you are saying specifically but its come up and I just do not understand it.

 

I don't think you fire a coach so you can get beter next year, you fire a coach and bring in your guy so you can continue to get better every year. I dont' think anyone, including Treliving/Burke is making the case that with a new coach suddenly the Flames will be great next year. I personally believe that with a different system (one that can cut down the chances against) and league average goaltening this is a playoff team next year and now can at least continue to build towards a contender. I do not think Hartley was building this team towards being a contender and in fact was taking it the opposite direction. You cannot contend for a cup IMO in today's NHL if you are going to be a bottom tier team in puck possession. 

 

I tend to agree with what you are saying, in that we have a team capable of being better with the right coach.  Some improvements in special teams, possession, and reducing scoring chances will do wonders for a team that was 11th in goals for.  Possession may sound like a weak argument, but if you gain the puck, then dump it, you spend the rest of the shift trying to get it back.  I can't remember the number of shifts of our top line was spend trying to get the puck back.  Usually by that point, all they have left is to dump it themselves.  

 

I think you can fix most of the problems we have without turning over a lot of players or making this a boring team to watch.  

[Heartbreaker]

Was is it you think this move was made so the Flames would get better immediately?

 

if you don't think you have the right coach why would wait? I know i've heard people say well give him another year and see if it turns around, or let him start the season and then just fire him if it doesn't work but really what is the point? Quite frankly I think that is irresponsible and stupid to start the season with a coach that you don't believe in almost waiting for him to be fired. I get that is not what either of you are saying specifically but its come up and I just do not understand it.

 

I don't think you fire a coach so you can get beter next year, you fire a coach and bring in your guy so you can continue to get better every year. I dont' think anyone, including Treliving/Burke is making the case that with a new coach suddenly the Flames will be great next year. I personally believe that with a different system (one that can cut down the chances against) and league average goaltening this is a playoff team next year and now can at least continue to build towards a contender. I do not think Hartley was building this team towards being a contender and in fact was taking it the opposite direction. You cannot contend for a cup IMO in today's NHL if you are going to be a bottom tier team in puck possession. 

 

I mostly agree with what you're saying. All I'm saying is that new coach or not, there is some roster turnover that needs to happen before this team is a contender, and I suspect that most of that will happen at the end of next season. If they have a guy that they like, I definitely think that they should bring him in, but that we need to keep our expectations in check. 

 

Love. 

[jjgallow]

Re: Engelland - I think I was defending BT's signing of Engelland, not saying BH was fired for his usage.  If BH was able to get that much out of Engelland, then both made good choices.

 

Re: Baertschi - I think I basically said that Baertschi asked for a trade, and that he did no better on the Canucks.  Whether he disagreed with Hartley or felt picked on is not important.  End of story, time to move on.

 

Re: Goaltending - BT put 3 goalies at BH's disposal.  How they were used is on Hartley.  As it turned out, the two goalies BT expected better out of were the two that finished the season with the best results.   

 

On Engelland....it's the contract.   that contract.   There's nothing to make that better.  Other than a Stanley Cup.  And even then I still think it might be questioned, lol.

 

On Baertschi and Ortio and goaltending....   Yeah.   You're right... BH had me Fuming at Various points these last two seasons.   I fully admit to that.    But, in the end, the handling of those situations comes down to the GM.   Just like Treliving said, "goaltending is on him".   And, no matter who bested who....I'll even include Ortio in that....(despite some of my BH grudges on the reasons):

 

"Best Results" should not be mixed into any conversations about this season's goaltending.

[cross16]

Specifically with Treliving, I really think fans need to realize how lucky we have it right now. Treliving is one of the best young GMs in the game and there is no doubt in my mind in the next 2-3 seasons we will be talking about him as one of THEE best GMs in the game. 

 

All GMs make mistakes. Stan Bowman signed Bryan Bickell to a multi year deal at 4 mill plus and now can't move him. He traded Patrick Sharp and basically received nothing in return. 

Dean Lombardi - Locked up Dustin Brown to a terrible contract. In fact he's saddled his team with a few pretty bad contracts. 

 

Everyone makes mistakes, you just need to limit them, keep them as small as you can and bat well above average. Treliving has done all of that so far as the GM. Obviously this coaching hire is really important, but so far he's given me nothing but confidence he will hire a good coach.

 

Not to mention, the real "negatives" people keep harping on are deals he signed his first offseason here. People forget, he was the GM for 2 months. the likelihood that those are guys HE really wanted is small. Very high probability that guys like Raymond and Engelland were already on the radar for the Flames and he signed off on it. 

[MAC331]

I mostly agree with what you're saying. All I'm saying is that new coach or not, there is some roster turnover that needs to happen before this team is a contender, and I suspect that most of that will happen at the end of next season. If they have a guy that they like, I definitely think that they should bring him in, but that we need to keep our expectations in check. 

 

Love. 

Yes we all have to remember the personel we have here now are some Feaster some BT. This rebuild started 2 years ago with BT and BB just before with Feaster. Change takes time and I'm not so sure Feaster and Hartley's time here was very measured. Any GM has to live with the contracts in place but with the rapid learning achieved by some of the young core the time to unload some of the support players has arrived a year early. This year BT should be trying to unload Wideman, Stajan, Raymond and Bollig if he can.

[jjgallow]

if you don't think you have the right coach why would wait?

 

Well you wouldn't.   You're absolutely right about that.    And you would hope Treliving's thinking long term.    But it didn't honestly sound that way, and that's my concern.

 

 

Again, I like your explanation a lot better than Treliving's explanation.  You should have fired him instead

 

So, we Lose guys like Hudler, Glencross, Russell, even Smid...              (mostly all good moves)

 

Add projects like Hamilton....Bennett   (don't get me wrong, excited for both of their futures)...

 

And ....expect better puck posession?   because...he ...picked up Frolik?  I guess?  and signed Engelland?

 

Did he think our puck possession last year was all from Gaudreau and Monahan, and all their experience?

 

What concerns me, is that Treliving actually expected a year-over-year improvement from the team he iced.   A team that is probably worse than last year's, when it was originally deemed by most to be the worst in the league.

 

The lack of perspective concerns me.   

[phoenix66]

Like I said, JJ was right you should be BT media guy.

 

You can try and spin things any way you like, but goaltending was the biggest problem with our team this season, not systems. If you get the same level of goaltending(easily last in the whole league) out of the gate again next year I don't care what system you have in place the Flames will fail to make the playoffs again.

 

In the big scheme of things(making the playoffs) goaltending was the biggest, main reason, most likely and had the most effect on our "not making the playoffs". Much more than any other reason you care to debate as to why.

 

Our "poor goaltending" is the single largest reason why the goaltending thread is now 250 pages long. 

 

 

 

It baffles me how you continue to argue when somebody is agreeing with you , perhaps my words are too big..  let me try again..

 

YES..Our Goaltending Sucked last year

YES..it was probably the biggest contributor to Reason we missed the playoffs

 

where we disagree heavily is the goal being to make the playoffs, it is not .. the goal is to win a cup, we tried squeaking in for years, and got bounced every time but one.

 

YES BT may have gotten us a better goalie and allowed us to squeak in and get bounced again 

I'm not defending, protecting  saying that our goalies did a good job, they did not - am just saying that how our system played in front of them did not do them any favors

 

I concede agree with ALL the comments that say our goaltending was an issue, what i do not agree with is the belief that this is all on BT like many here want to say and not on BH

 

many are fast to point out that "BT even agreed Goalie was an issue"  but fail to remember that "so was play in front of the Goalie" 

 

 

pointing out that much of last season is on Bob is not being a PR guy for BT

[phoenix66]

 

On Engelland....it's the contract.   that contract.   There's nothing to make that better.  Other than a Stanley Cup.  And even then I still think it might be questioned, lol.

 

On Baertschi and Ortio and goaltending....   Yeah.   You're right... BH had me Fuming at Various points these last two seasons.   I fully admit to that.    But, in the end, the handling of those situations comes down to the GM.   Just like Treliving said, "goaltending is on him".   And, no matter who bested who....I'll even include Ortio in that....(despite some of my BH grudges on the reasons):

 

"Best Results" should not be mixed into any conversations about this season's goaltending.

 

 

 

agree with most of it.. tho i still believe Engelland can earn that contract if used better and more frequently in roles he was sometimes given .

 

I think it was your previous post, but it should be noted , it was Feaster who lost Brossoit.. not BT

[cross16]

Well you wouldn't.   You're absolutely right about that.    And you would hope Treliving's thinking long term.    But it didn't honestly sound that way, and that's my concern.

 

 

Again, I like your explanation a lot better than Treliving's explanation.  You should have fired him instead

 

So, we Lose guys like Hudler, Glencross, Russell, even Smid...              (mostly all good moves)

 

Add projects like Hamilton....Bennett   (don't get me wrong, excited for both of their futures)...

 

And ....expect better puck posession?   because...he ...picked up Frolik?  I guess?  and signed Engelland?

 

Did he think our puck possession last year was all from Gaudreau and Monahan, and all their experience?

 

What concerns me, is that Treliving actually expected a year-over-year improvement from the team he iced.   A team that is probably worse than last year's, when it was originally deemed by most to be the worst in the league.

 

The lack of perspective concerns me.   

 

The team last year was deemed worse in the league because no one knew the impact Gaudreau/Mony were going to have. If you take last year's team preseason and then add in the impact Gaudreau had there is no way anyone would have picked them as one of the worst teams in the leaague. If you are operating under the pretense that last years team should have been one of the worst teams in the league I would argue you are operating under a false pretence. Yes, most predicted it but most also didn't predict Gaudreau for the Calder. That alone would have lifted them out of the bottom. 

 

The Flames acutally did imrpove their posession numbers from last year to this year, but again stop focussing so much on last year. Every year Hartley has been the coach they've finished in the bottom 5 of possession. Also consider this, Toronto, Winnipeg, Carolina, and Montreal ALL had better possession numbers than the Flames. You aren't seriously going to argue that those 4 teams are better than the Flames are you? Even if you want to argue Wpg, Carolina and Montreal as better than the Flames (I wouldn't but i'll leave you to it if you want) the Leafs? The leafs can be above average in puck possession with their garbage roster and the Flames with a pretty decent roster have to be bottom 5?

 

Coaching was absolutely a problem for the Flames last year and was going to be going forward. I don't see how you think Treliving is only thinking short term but that's up to to you to decide. You can't contend playing the type of hockey the Flames were playing. 

[travel_dude]

On Engelland....it's the contract.   that contract.   There's nothing to make that better.  Other than a Stanley Cup.  And even then I still think it might be questioned, lol.

 

On Baertschi and Ortio and goaltending....   Yeah.   You're right... BH had me Fuming at Various points these last two seasons.   I fully admit to that.    But, in the end, the handling of those situations comes down to the GM.   Just like Treliving said, "goaltending is on him".   And, no matter who bested who....I'll even include Ortio in that....(despite some of my BH grudges on the reasons):

 

"Best Results" should not be mixed into any conversations about this season's goaltending.

 

I have a harder time with Raymond's than I do with Engelland's.  At the time, we were in need of cap dollars to reach the floor. Doesn't excuse the contract but makes it more understandable.  I doubt he had to bid that high otherwise.

 

I can only assign part of the goaltending blame to BT.  Yes, he created the "competition" for finding the best.  Yes, he put the coach in a situation that gave him too many options.  I applaud BT for taking ownership.  He could easily have fired the goaltending coach.  

 

Best Results - I laugh at this.  In a season of negatives, Ramo played some of his best hockey after he "won" the starter role.  He was instrumental in the Flames going on an 11 game winning streak.  I wonder what we would be saying if Ramo wasn't injured and Hiller never played a game.  Would Ortio and Ramo have made us closer to a playoff team?  

[phoenix66]

 

 

Add projects like Hamilton....Bennett   (don't get me wrong, excited for both of their futures)...

 

 

 

 

 

i do also disagree with calling Hamilton a Project.. guy played great, big minutes alongside a future hall of famer, he should have been used better from the start. Yes, he had a learning curve, but it's not like we didn't have a sampling of his potential in areas he was scarcely used.

[AlbertaBoy12]

i do also disagree with calling Hamilton a Project.. guy played great, big minutes alongside a future hall of famer, he should have been used better from the start. Yes, he had a learning curve, but it's not like we didn't have a sampling of his potential in areas he was scarcely used.

If hamilton and bennett are projects, I dont even wanna know what mangiapane or arnold are. I would agree with you on hamilton, him making mistakes is no different then gio or brodie making mistakes, just hamiltons mistakes were a little worse. Obviously hamilton had some miscues in the D zone but I dont think that makes him a project by any stretch. 

[jjgallow]

The team last year was deemed worse in the league because no one knew the impact Gaudreau/Mony were going to have.

 

...

 

Best Results - I laugh at this.

 

Sorry to cut the rest of your post off.  Just short for time, nothing more.

 

Mony performed exactly as projected last year, he was absolutely a known.    

 

Johnny added 24 goals (and caused a good number too with rookie style defensive lapses).  

 

Fantastic performance for a rookie.  NOT, however, the difference maker between last and 2nd round of the playoffs.

 

Hudler, Russell, Brodie, Gio (when healthy) all had career years.  Among others.    I don't think this is something we should have to debate.

 

 

Nor do I think we should have to debate our goaltending "successes".  I do not even see the value in entertaining a conversation about "how well" our goaltending went, or how it just needed to be tweaked.

[cross16]

Sorry to cut the rest of your post off.  Just short for time, nothing more.

 

Mony performed exactly as projected last year, he was absolutely a known.    

 

Johnny added 24 goals (and caused a good number too with rookie style defensive lapses).  

 

Fantastic performance for a rookie.  NOT, however, the difference maker between last and 2nd round of the playoffs.

 

Hudler, Russell, Brodie, Gio (when healthy) all had career years.  Among others.    I don't think this is something we should have to debate.

 

 

Nor do I think we should have to debate our goaltending "successes".  I do not even see the value in entertaining a conversation about "how well" our goaltending went, or how it just needed to be tweaked.

 

Considering I never said anything about goaltending i would agree. I'm leaving it alone as my thoughts on goaltending I think you know full well by now as you and I have discussed it.

 

Gio and Brodie were not unexpected as even before last year they were emerging as great Dmen. Last year they moved into elite category but IMO that not a surprise. Hudler had a career year on the back of Mony/Johnny IMO and the emergence of Johnny turned what should have been an OK 2nd line into one of the top lines in the NHL. That alone is going to carry you out of the bottom 5 IMO. I'm not saying ti should have been enough to be a playoff team, i'm just saying you keep harping that last year's team should have been close to 30th and I don't agree, not when you factor in Johnny/Mony. Mony's progression is extremely rare so arguing tha we should have expected 30 goals and 60 points is very optimistic.

 

either way, that is not the main point I am trying to make and I don't want to get into a argument or semantics. My point is you do not necessarily need to drastically improve your skill in order to create more puck possession. As teams like Carolina and Toronto have shown you can increase puck possession simply by brining in a coach who will implement a more puck possession style of play. So yes, it is realistic of Treliving to expect his team to get better every year and it is reasonable for him to expect that they shouldn't be in the bottom 5 in terms of puck possession, or special teams for that matter. 

[xstrike]

On Engelland....it's the contract.   that contract.   There's nothing to make that better.  Other than a Stanley Cup.  And even then I still think it might be questioned, lol.

I'm not the biggest Engelland fan, but he's not been terrible when moved into the top 4 this year. Could the contract be better? Yes. Is it MayRay bad? No. I'm ok with it. I don't like it but I don't hate it.

 

In the big scheme of things(making the playoffs) goaltending was the biggest, main reason, most likely and had the most effect on our "not making the playoffs". Much more than any other reason you care to debate as to why.

Here's a fun mental exercise. Put our goaltenders onto a current playoff team for this regular season. Does that team make the playoffs still? Is it the system or is it the goaltending?