Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[MAC331]

I agree completely. The hardest thing is to get those gritty players that have enough skill to compete.

I honestly see next to none of that in our ranks. I believe "size" is kind of overrated because there are lots of avg sized guys in the league that play that way. Heck, you could also look at Gallagher and Marchand as undersized and play a hard game.

I see Jooris first coming in with it, and Hathaway too, but we need that in a higher skill level.

One thing I think we really lack is wingers that really go hard to the tough areas and know what to do when they get there.

I think the next coach has to coordinate these desired elements into each line and the defensive pairings. When you look at the C's we have in Monahan, Bennett and Backlund for the top 3 lines. Let's be honest, Gaudreau is a pickpocket who will never work the boards against anyone. Monahan is only so good along the boards, his strength is in the slots and cleaning up rebounds for goals. We need a RW who can clear some space, help Monahan on the forecheck and pot some goals. Who will this be, nobody in house right now ?

 

Determining who is our 2nd line is going to be important, right now I think Backlund C that line only because his line will be charged with playing against the opposition's top line and Bennett isn't ready for that yet. Defensively Backlund and Frolik works well together but wo would be the best LW for these two ? Shinkaruk maybe ?

 

I would like to see a line built around Bennett this coming season that could fully take over 2nd line duties in 2017/18. I would like to see what Ferland could do on LW and Pribyl on RW with Bennett.

 

A 4th line with Stajan out of the way could be a bunch of players, Bouma LW, Colborne C, Hathaway or Jooris RW

[phoenix66]

I think the next coach has to coordinate these desired elements into each line and the defensive pairings. When you look at the C's we have in Monahan, Bennett and Backlund for the top 3 lines. Let's be honest, Gaudreau is a pickpocket who will never work the boards against anyone. Monahan is only so good along the boards, his strength is in the slots and cleaning up rebounds for goals. We need a RW who can clear some space, help Monahan on the forecheck and pot some goals. Who will this be, nobody in house right now ?

 

Determining who is our 2nd line is going to be important, right now I think Backlund C that line only because his line will be charged with playing against the opposition's top line and Bennett isn't ready for that yet. Defensively Backlund and Frolik works well together but wo would be the best LW for these two ? Shinkaruk maybe ?

 

I would like to see a line built around Bennett this coming season that could fully take over 2nd line duties in 2017/18. I would like to see what Ferland could do on LW and Pribyl on RW with Bennett.

 

A 4th line with Stajan out of the way could be a bunch of players, Bouma LW, Colborne C, Hathaway or Jooris RW

I just posted this in the next coach thread too.This guy has a Treliving guy written all over him. Teacher,defense and power play development,possession. I did some other reading on him after this article. I would not be surprised if this is Treliving's guy

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/capitals-assistant-reirden-future-head-coach-nhl-184423412--nhl.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[MAC331]

I just posted this in the next coach thread too.This guy has a Treliving guy written all over him. Teacher,defense and power play development,possession. I did some other reading on him after this article. I would not be surprised if this is Treliving's guy

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/capitals-assistant-reirden-future-head-coach-nhl-184423412--nhl.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I saw that and yes he should be under consideration. Sounds like a good Battle of Alberta that could brew with him going against McClelland LOL. I like it.

[phoenix66]

I saw that and yes he should be under consideration. Sounds like a good Battle of Alberta that could brew with him going against McClelland LOL. I like it.

No kidding..he even used to play for the oilers haha

If he's responsible for the defense that elevated Holtby to looking that good I want him.

Holtby was already good, but I don't think it's coincidence he's become Elite in the last 2 years.

[conundrumed]

I think the next coach has to coordinate these desired elements into each line and the defensive pairings. When you look at the C's we have in Monahan, Bennett and Backlund for the top 3 lines. Let's be honest, Gaudreau is a pickpocket who will never work the boards against anyone. Monahan is only so good along the boards, his strength is in the slots and cleaning up rebounds for goals. We need a RW who can clear some space, help Monahan on the forecheck and pot some goals. Who will this be, nobody in house right now ?

 

Determining who is our 2nd line is going to be important, right now I think Backlund C that line only because his line will be charged with playing against the opposition's top line and Bennett isn't ready for that yet. Defensively Backlund and Frolik works well together but wo would be the best LW for these two ? Shinkaruk maybe ?

 

I would like to see a line built around Bennett this coming season that could fully take over 2nd line duties in 2017/18. I would like to see what Ferland could do on LW and Pribyl on RW with Bennett.

 

A 4th line with Stajan out of the way could be a bunch of players, Bouma LW, Colborne C, Hathaway or Jooris RW

I pretty much agree with you, but we're so jammed up to the cap pdq, if we can't shed some salaries we'll stagnate for another year.

I believe that's a real possibility. I think Shinkaruk had a decent audition, but I think he still needs more 3rd and 4th duty to ramp his D game up and see if he can find a consistent and effective style.

I'd like nothing more than Ferland really working his coordination this summer because he's close imo, he shouldn't have to be a goon but I believe that's what was asked of him.

Another thing we don't do is retaliate, like, at all, and if you don't push back, teams take advantage.

I'd liken Pribyl to Nakladl, in that you really have to let him adjust in the A, plus he'll be coming off surgery so I don't think there's a lot of realistic hope there.

A lot of this is why I scour the lower FA's for experienced grit. I'm not looking for an answer, just short-term transitions to look at style of play and show the young guys what hard work looks like.

I think of guys like Chimera and Fiddler that you might buy for a year on the cheap. Chimera will be 40 for god's sake, but he still has forechecking wheels, still potting 20, so it's not like I'm not thinking it through. Fiddler is 36 I believe, basically a journeyman career, but he'll do 50% at the dot and give you a lot of stability instead of Stajan.

These aren't solutions, but I believe our forwards need this kind of leadership on the 3-4 lines.

I think those kind of adds strengthen your locker room, scarred up old vets that have done it all, outside of Gio if Stajan is gone, they don't have that.

"Hey Chims, tell us what it was like playing against Phil Esposito!" lol Fiddler has drawn every C in the league, plays a hard game and could give Bennett a lot of insight.

Not solutions, but I think it's a good way to get your locker room of young kids a lot of perspective.

[MAC331]

I pretty much agree with you, but we're so jammed up to the cap pdq, if we can't shed some salaries we'll stagnate for another year.

I believe that's a real possibility. I think Shinkaruk had a decent audition, but I think he still needs more 3rd and 4th duty to ramp his D game up and see if he can find a consistent and effective style.

I'd like nothing more than Ferland really working his coordination this summer because he's close imo, he shouldn't have to be a goon but I believe that's what was asked of him.

Another thing we don't do is retaliate, like, at all, and if you don't push back, teams take advantage.

I'd liken Pribyl to Nakladl, in that you really have to let him adjust in the A, plus he'll be coming off surgery so I don't think there's a lot of realistic hope there.

A lot of this is why I scour the lower FA's for experienced grit. I'm not looking for an answer, just short-term transitions to look at style of play and show the young guys what hard work looks like.

I think of guys like Chimera and Fiddler that you might buy for a year on the cheap. Chimera will be 40 for god's sake, but he still has forechecking wheels, still potting 20, so it's not like I'm not thinking it through. Fiddler is 36 I believe, basically a journeyman career, but he'll do 50% at the dot and give you a lot of stability instead of Stajan.

These aren't solutions, but I believe our forwards need this kind of leadership on the 3-4 lines.

I think those kind of adds strengthen your locker room, scarred up old vets that have done it all, outside of Gio if Stajan is gone, they don't have that.

"Hey Chims, tell us what it was like playing against Phil Esposito!" lol Fiddler has drawn every C in the league, plays a hard game and could give Bennett a lot of insight.

Not solutions, but I think it's a good way to get your locker room of young kids a lot of perspective.

The difference in part with our thoughts is I still see Bennett more so as our 3rd line C so having Shinkaruk on his LW is worth a try now. Pribyl you are likely correct that he starts and stays in AHL this initial year with some call ups later. Should this be the case then I think BT gets on the hunt for a RW. Sorry to say I'm not on the same wavelength with your Chimera or Fiddler idea. I would rather see them get a younger version like a Tom Wilson from WAS if possible.

[DirtyDeeds]

Exactly. It doesn't matter how much Hartley was getting out of the roster if he isn't coaching a style of game that the GM and President want.

I don't agree that Hartley was getting the most out of the roster. This roster is not a bottom 6 roster and Hartley failed by many metrics that have been discussed here. I also think he was losing the room as indicated by many rumors and by his shelf life with his other coaching gigs. You can blame the GM for the goalies sure, but those are the same goalies that got us to the second round a season ago. I hated Hartleys rotation and deployment of the goalies and I hated how he used Ortio. This is another situation where people are giving the coach a pass when they shouldn't.

But all of that is moot. If the coach isn't on the same page as the GM then you have a problem and you need a coaching change to fix it.

The problem with our goalies to start the year was not the deployment or rotation, but that they all played like elbowing. None of them even came close to .900 sv%.

 

As for Ortio, he was odd man out and only got a short time to prove himself and still failed miserably and was passed through waivers anyway. This was something BT did not want to do earlier in the year because he did not want anyone to claim him. That was the reason 3(Ortio in particular) were kept up on the Flames not some BH decision on rotation.

 

Things likely would have been different if Ortio had been sent down  early in the year, cleared waivers and waited for either Ramo or Hiller to fail and got the callup. At the very least he would have been playing and likely would have had some games under his belt  instead of sitting in the stands and sharing practice times with 2 other goalies.

 

Why do you guy keep pointing fingers at BH for the goalie situation when BT has already said that was on him and he screwed up? Maybe if you paid more attention to BT and his explanations you would understand this.

 

Like I said earlier.. It is so much easier to just dump all the problems for the team on the fired guy.

[phoenix66]

The problem with our goalies to start the year was not the deployment or rotation, but that they all played like elbowing. None of them even came close to .900 sv%.

 

 

 

Why do you guy keep pointing fingers at BH for the goalie situation when BT has already said that was on him and he screwed up? Maybe if you paid more attention to BT and his explanations you would understand this.

 

 

 

 

at the time of his demotion , Ramo had a .904 in his 2 (and only 2).. starts.. even if you factor in the washington game where he played mop up after Hiller got yanked-- he still had the highest SV% of all 3 tenders

 

and why do you keep twisting BT's words and leaving out the Key words?

 

BT took ownership of the Bodies.. meaning that he was responsible for BH having only  Ortio, Ramo and Hiller to choose from -- the play on the ice, the play in front of them , meaning also who played and when - was not owned by BT, he handed that right back to BH.. but you could keep describing it like BT owned the Play of the goalies.. this just is not what Bt said.

[conundrumed]

The difference in part with our thoughts is I still see Bennett more so as our 3rd line C so having Shinkaruk on his LW is worth a try now. Pribyl you are likely correct that he starts and stays in AHL this initial year with some call ups later. Should this be the case then I think BT gets on the hunt for a RW. Sorry to say I'm not on the same wavelength with your Chimera or Fiddler idea. I would rather see them get a younger version like a Tom Wilson from WAS if possible.

There is nothing wrong with difference of opinion. Bennett is our 3C for now, because we really don't have the parts to settle into his style.

I expect most aren't on my wavelength on Fiddler and Chimera. Not a big deal. But I have to ask, do you not think a young roster needs that? The 4 remaining teams right now rely on vet presence. We need at least some imho.

[travel_dude]

There is nothing wrong with difference of opinion. Bennett is our 3C for now, because we really don't have the parts to settle into his style.

I expect most aren't on my wavelength on Fiddler and Chimera. Not a big deal. But I have to ask, do you not think a young roster needs that? The 4 remaining teams right now rely on vet presence. We need at least some imho.

Chimera and Beagle are two players that can bring it.  They are infinitely better than Bollig.  I'm not sure how long Chimera can play at that level.  37 and still productive?

 

Fiddler's value is in his faceoff ability.  

 

If you picked up Chimera, Fiddler, and Beagle, you would need to jetison Stajan, Bouma and Bollig.  

[MAC331]

There is nothing wrong with difference of opinion. Bennett is our 3C for now, because we really don't have the parts to settle into his style.

I expect most aren't on my wavelength on Fiddler and Chimera. Not a big deal. But I have to ask, do you not think a young roster needs that? The 4 remaining teams right now rely on vet presence. We need at least some imho.

I believe you need some character guys that keep it loose but also professional. We are at the point where we have to give a number of players getting close to 25 the opportunity to play if you bring outsiders in they won't get that opportunity. Stajan was kept around for some of what you are talking about but its time for him to go. I think some of the current players can take their lead from Giordano and help in the leadership roles.

[DirtyDeeds]

at the time of his demotion , Ramo had a .904 in his 2 (and only 2).. starts.. even if you factor in the washington game where he played mop up after Hiller got yanked-- he still had the highest SV% of all 3 tenders

 

and why do you keep twisting BT's words and leaving out the Key words?

 

BT took ownership of the Bodies.. meaning that he was responsible for BH having only  Ortio, Ramo and Hiller to choose from -- the play on the ice, the play in front of them , meaning also who played and when - was not owned by BT, he handed that right back to BH.. but you could keep describing it like BT owned the Play of the goalies.. this just is not what Bt said.

Seriously, you have doubts still?

 

 

The only people who should take blame for the crappy play of the goaltenders are the goaltenders.

 

Where did I say BT owned the play of the goalies?

I have only said BT owned up to the situation where the Flames kept 3 goalies  coming out of preseason. Every dog and his buddy knows that 3 goalies does not make for a good situation. Is there any doubt this is why all 3 played poorly until BT started to waive a couple of them? They started to play better when injuries and Waiving them got the Team down to 2 goalies... Go figure..

 

Do I need to spell it out to you ? Put in simpler language so you can understand(yes this is a jab back after your comment previously)

 

 

I have been singing this from the rafters for a long time now. BH, BT did not strap on the pads and play, so in the end it is on the goalies only. It is the responsibility of the players and prospects to perform when given the opportunity or did this basic concept change last couple of years?. 

 

BT is the one who put the Team in that situation, and he owned up that it was wrong thing to do.

[phoenix66]

Seriously, you have doubts still?

 

 

The only people who should take blame for the crappy play of the goaltenders are the goaltenders.

 

Where did I say BT owned the play of the goalies?

I have only said BT owned up to the situation where the Flames kept 3 goalies  coming out of preseason. Every dog and his buddy knows that 3 goalies does not make for a good situation. Is there any doubt this is why all 3 played poorly until BT started to waive a couple of them? They started to play better when injuries and Waiving them got the Team down to 2 goalies... Go figure..

 

Do I need to spell it out to you ? Put in simpler language so you can understand(yes this is a jab back after your comment previously)

 

 

I have been singing this from the rafters for a long time now. BH, BT did not strap on the pads and play, so in the end it is on the goalies only. It is the responsibility of the players and prospects to perform when given the opportunity or did this basic concept change last couple of years?. 

 

BT is the one who put the Team in that situation, and he owned up that it was wrong thing to do.

 1. It's been documented, more than once , in many places BH controlled call ups and farm demotions,and all Roster decisions meaning it was BH who kept 3 goalies on the roster. the only thing BT could have done was take that control from him and demote somebody anyway(Hiller)

 

2. Hartley chose to keep the worst of the 3-- and demoted the best performing of the 3-- based on all stats- i can re-detail them if you like

 

3. Even when we were  down to 2 goalies, Hiller contiunued to Suck.. if I blame BT for any of this, its that he didn't take Hartley's Shiny Swiss Toy away  and send him to the farm when BH wasn't looking 

 

The logical, non conspiracy theory as to why he chose to run with Hiller was a belief that the veteran would bounce back, he was wrong

he either a) ran with him out of pure belief or relied on the word of his goalie coach and his "schedule"

 

Was Bt guilty of not going and getting another goalie?. sure...   but that doesn't change the fact BH did not get the best results from what he had..which is what I have been saying .  

A coach's job , is to maximize his players results. we had seen before what all 3 were capable of being .. so yes, its the coach's fault when their play is dropping below their usual standards.

Maybe they had tuned him out ?.. maybe he lost the room ? but these are common reasons coaches get fired

Maybe the "win and your In" approach is specifically what both Bb an BH taked about when they referenced being unhappy with how players were used? 

[DirtyDeeds]

1. It's been documented, more than once , in many places BH controlled call ups and farm demotions,and all Roster decisions meaning it was BH who kept 3 goalies on the roster. the only thing BT could have done was take that control from him and demote somebody anyway(Hiller)

 

Show me the documented info. BT said a few times now the 3 goalies up on the team was his decision and when first asked about it after the season he admitted it was his decision because he did not want to chance waiving and losing Ortio.

 

2. Hartley chose to keep the worst of the 3-- and demoted the best performing of the 3-- based on all stats- i can re-detail them if you like

 

Aren't you the one who dismisses  goalie stats? now you want to bring them out to support your argument?

Stats are misleading.. Show me stats on 2Nd and 3Rd shots? Odd man rushes? ......

Hartley was quite specific about why Ortio was odd man out at the beginning of the year and why he chose to run with the Hiller / Ramo combination. Among his specifics he said Ortio was playing as well or practising as well as the other two. Yopu c an look at all the stats you want but they don't show how well a goalie is practicing or if he came to campo ready to play. Ortio said later on he was not really ready for his first NHL season and did not come prepared.

3. Even when we were down to 2 goalies, Hiller contiunued to Suck.. if I blame BT for any of this, its that he didn't take Hartley's Shiny Swiss Toy away and send him to the farm when BH wasn't looking

Of course Hiller sucked so did all the goalies. The one stat Hiller had going for him is wins. When all else fails who cares what stats a goalie has as long as he gets the win. Hiller was .500 in wins when the others were not close. Which begs the question who do you as a coach pick when you have one goalies collecting wins and the other not yet they both have poor stats? You going to tell me you would play the guy with losses and poor stats?

The logical, non conspiracy theory as to why he chose to run with Hiller was a belief that the veteran would bounce back, he was wrong

he either a) ran with him out of pure belief or relied on the word of his goalie coach and his "schedule"

Was Bt guilty of not going and getting another goalie?. sure... but that doesn't change the fact BH did not get the best results from what he had..which is what I have been saying .

A coach's job , is to maximize his players results. we had seen before what all 3 were capable of being .. so yes, its the coach's fault when their play is dropping below their usual standards.

Yet over here you say it is indeed the goalies fault from being in the 3 goalies ..

 

......... Part of the reason we tend to "ruin" goalies in this organization is confidence. I dont think its coincidence that all 3 were awful in the 3 system, or that Ramo got hot when he knew he could make a mistake and he was still playing.

........

Maybe they had tuned him out ?.. maybe he lost the room ? but these are common reasons coaches get fired

Maybe the "win and your In" approach is specifically what both Bb an BH taked about when they referenced being unhappy with how players were used?

Sorry man, in one thread you say one thing and now for the sake of argument you say something else..

[phoenix66]

Sorry man, in one thread you say one thing and now for the sake of argument you say something else..

 

I use stats , because you were using Stats. You said we had nobody close to .900  at the start of the year , well, No , Ramo was .904 in his 2 starts when he was sent down .

You're right , i dont like Goalie stats, there are too many pieces that they dont tell you ..like the team play and defense in front in them .

I have always said, BH's system hangs goaltenders out to dry. Show me a team blocking a record number of shots, I'll show you a team that allows too many shots that need blocking. 

 

Our difference here is you believe Bob would still have his job and all would be rosy in Flames land, if we just had a better goalie- i say we had much more wrong than just our goaltending

 

For the sake of argument, lets say you're right ,that it's all on BT that we had a 3 goalie system. That means you are saying our season was lost in 6 Games to start the year , because that's how long the 3 goal system lasted.

(Altho according to Bob, it was lost in one game.)

When Ramo came back, he was good the rest of the year , ,meaning the rest of the year , we didn't have a goalie problem , we had a Hiller Problem.

 

Ive never denied our goaltending was an issue this year , I'm just not piling on the bandwagon that says it was our only problem , even if i concede this one point, that still makes the argument to hold BH accountable somewhere around 9-1 for whats on BT and whats on BH

[DirtyDeeds]

I use stats , because you were using Stats. You said we had nobody close to .900  at the start of the year , well, No , Ramo was .904 in his 2 starts when he was sent down .

 

How do you figure that?? Ramo had 2 starts just barely over .900 up until Dec 5th, 1 on Oct 16th and the other on Nov 20th. The rest (15 of them)were all sub .900

You're right , i dont like Goalie stats, there are too many pieces that they dont tell you ..like the team play and defense in front in them .

I will agree goalies stats don't tell the whole story.  They leave too much for interpretation by armchair GM's.

 

I have always said, BH's system hangs goaltenders out to dry. Show me a team blocking a record number of shots, I'll show you a team that allows too many shots that need blocking. 

Any shot that does not reach the Goalie or misses the net, is a shot that the goalie does not have to save. This is actually a good thing. It is the shots that the D miss and let through or the ones that miss the net but bounced out front of the net that Goalies have to worry about. 

 

Our difference here is you believe Bob would still have his job and all would be rosy in Flames land, if we just had a better goalie- i say we had much more wrong than just our goaltending

You are pretty much incorrect interpreting my feelings. I have been constant in saying Goaltenders were the biggest problem for the Flames this season. It was not BH or his rotation or his sticking with vets because none of the Goalies played well enough.(Ortio is exempt early on because he was not played and should have been put through waivers early That was BT's problem and he admitted this many times.)  

No team is perfect but the poor goaltending snowballed through the rest of the team. Any team that can't trust the Goalies to stop a beachball is going to struggle.. The D sucked too until Brodie returned from his injury.

Bottom line is a average goalies likely would have found the extra 5 games we needed to put us in playoff contention.

 

For the sake of argument, lets say you're right ,that it's all on BT that we had a 3 goalie system. That means you are saying our season was lost in 6 Games to start the year , because that's how long the 3 goal system lasted.

(Altho according to Bob, it was lost in one game.)

When Ramo came back, he was good the rest of the year , ,meaning the rest of the year , we didn't have a goalie problem , we had a Hiller Problem.

 Ramo was injured for the remainder of the season(28 games from Feb 12 injury) How do you figure that was not a problem? 

No doubt about it Hiller had crap stats but he had one thing the other 2 goalies didn't have:

In his stretch of bad games he had some wins:

 

Ive never denied our goaltending was an issue this year , I'm just not piling on the bandwagon that says it was our only problem , even if i concede this one point, that still makes the argument to hold BH accountable somewhere around 9-1 for whats on BT and whats on BH

And for the record Ortio did have 3 games early that he played okay. But he had a huge stretch where he did not play or just plain sucked too. It was not until late March when the games did not matter that he finally started to put some decent games together.

 

I have never said Goaltending was the only problem either. Don't paint me as saying this. I have criticized the D especially at the beginning of the year but..... They(D) were better when Brodie returned and Hamilton was given more sheltered minutes because of his return.

[phoenix66]

And for the record Ortio did have 3 games early that he played okay. But he had a huge stretch where he did not play or just plain sucked too. It was not until late March when the games did not matter that he finally started to put some decent games together.

 

I have never said Goaltending was the only problem either. Don't paint me as saying this. I have criticized the D especially at the beginning of the year but..... They(D) were better when Brodie returned and Hamilton was given more sheltered minutes because of his return.

 

 

 

something wrong with your stats there ..  WPG game was 27/29.. thats a .931. not a .904.  In the 2 starts he was 66/73  = .904

 

and the Hiller point is Moot.. Ramo also had wins in a sub .900 stretch

 

As a goaltender,I can tell from first hand experience,  here is the problem with a defense that relies on blocked shots :

1) it pulls the defenseman out of the play , leaving a player uncovered and ready to take an extra shot , how many times did our goaltender get scored on by a player who was not being covered ?

2) many times it screens the goalie and he loses sight of the puck.. a fast passing team will take advantage of that . just like how players will purposely miss the net on a deep shot to get a rebound opportunity off the boards, players will purposely take a shot that will be blocked to pull a dman out of the play 

 

shots do need to be blocked when necessary obviously , but unless you got an elite goalie back there  you're gonna hang them out to dry if that's your system

 

 

my biggest point in all of this , is its the coaches job to prepare his players. He was given a 3 goalie system? make it work . he could just as easily told his guys " A+B are the guys..C is here if needed"  sure it sucks to be C, but you ve instilled a sense of stability to your tandem by doing that . But no , he kept the competition going.. fear of losing had the opposite effect. Thats why i say the handling was mismanaged(among other reasons)

 

Why weren't they ready ? they all , to be honest , looked good in preseason.. that's what caused the monster in the first place. Why didnt he work with the D pairings more in preseason?

 

and my biggest issue , again , and I'm pretty sure it dropped the nail in BH's coffin when he said it , was saying we lost the season in the 1st game.. its his job to ensure they shake off a bad game. i shook my head when i heard that , cant believe BT's jaw didnt drop when he heard that too.

[conundrumed]

I have never said Goaltending was the only problem either. Don't paint me as saying this. I have criticized the D especially at the beginning of the year but..... They(D) were better when Brodie returned and Hamilton was given more sheltered minutes because of his return.

Man that's a bitter memory. Watched camp and all of the home preseason. The D looked horrendous the whole time.

BH says we lost in Game 1, I'd say before game 1.

What really bothered me was I thought Nakladal looked pretty darn good. But got hung with tons of minuses due to being paired with Gio and Hamilton. Wideman and Russell looked pathetic. Wideman slow as molasses and Russell forcing every pass into a crowd.

Hard to say but maybe the goaltending could have gotten off to a better footing if the D hadn't been a complete travesty.

Come see come saw. I believe Hartley should have completely collapsed his system into EVERYONE D first, forget the long bombs.

He must have saw it coming into the season but chose to ride it out. imo.

[DirtyDeeds]

something wrong with your stats there ..  WPG game was 27/29.. thats a .931. not a .904.  In the 2 starts he was 66/73  = .904

They are the Hockey News Database stats.. not mine quibble with them.. They are usually very accurate.

 

You are kidding right? We all agree Ortio never got a chance until later in the season and when he put up this block of elbowing games:

 

 

Besides you are quibbling over a couple early games scope out of 82... and they are like a month apart... .904 is nothing to hold up as good either...

 

and the Hiller point is Moot.. Ramo also had wins in a sub .900 stretch

 

As a goaltender,I can tell from first hand experience,  here is the problem with a defense that relies on blocked shots :

1) it pulls the defenseman out of the play , leaving a player uncovered and ready to take an extra shot , how many times did our goaltender get scored on by a player who was not being covered ?

2) many times it screens the goalie and he loses sight of the puck.. a fast passing team will take advantage of that . just like how players will purposely miss the net on a deep shot to get a rebound opportunity off the boards, players will purposely take a shot that will be blocked to pull a dman out of the play 

 

shots do need to be blocked when necessary obviously , but unless you got an elite goalie back there  you're gonna hang them out to dry if that's your system

 

 

my biggest point in all of this , is its the coaches job to prepare his players. He was given a 3 goalie system? make it work . he could just as easily told his guys " A+B are the guys..C is here if needed"  sure it sucks to be C, but you ve instilled a sense of stability to your tandem by doing that . But no , he kept the competition going.. fear of losing had the opposite effect. Thats why i say the handling was mismanaged(among other reasons)

 

Why weren't they ready ? they all , to be honest , looked good in preseason.. that's what caused the monster in the first place. Why didnt he work with the D pairings more in preseason?

See you keep saying he didn't prepare the D. The fact is Brodie was hurt. How do you prepare the D when half your top pairing is missing and the other half(Gio) is still labouring from his devastating injury the previous year? You act like the D should have been playing like Brodie was there and Gio was playing at a Norris level and Hamilton had a seemless integration to a brand new system? As a former goalie you should understand that you are there for when the D is struggling too, but it explains why you are trying so hard to make excuses for the goaltenders you like(Hiller excluded)

 

and my biggest issue , again , and I'm pretty sure it dropped the nail in BH's coffin when he said it , was saying we lost the season in the 1st game.. its his job to ensure they shake off a bad game. i shook my head when i heard that , cant believe BT's jaw didnt drop when he heard that too.

It is clear you have issues.. I won't debate that....

[phoenix66]

It is clear you have issues.. I won't debate that....

The point of the .904 was to point out that it was clear that Ramo was the wrong scapegoat to demote.. Hiller was the obvious choice if you're not sending Ortio

 

so, youre adamant that our defense had major issues, insurmountable due to injuries etc.. but yet you see no correlation to that and the bad play of the goaltenders? other than we didnt bail out a bad defense?

 

 

Hard to say but maybe the goaltending could have gotten off to a better footing if the D hadn't been a complete travesty.

Come see come saw. I believe Hartley should have completely collapsed his system into EVERYONE D first, forget the long bombs.

 

 

THIS

 

keep it simple, dont play like you usually do when you dont have the horses to do it

 

again..coaching

[conundrumed]

THIS

 

keep it simple, dont play like you usually do when you dont have the horses to do it

 

again..coaching

Hey keep me out of your quarrel!

 

But I was posting my anti-D rants at the start of the year. It was BBBBBad.

If I saw it, everyone saw it, particularly Hartley and Cloutier.

But one thing to remember, we aren't Anaheim, we can't afford to be sluggish out of the gate and win 26 of the next 30.

That is roster, and roster is on the GM.

If you don't have the horses, that is a GM thing, coaches don't make trades or signings, the coach has what the GM gives him.

[phoenix66]

Hey keep me out of your quarrel!

 

But I was posting my anti-D rants at the start of the year. It was BBBBBad.

If I saw it, everyone saw it, particularly Hartley and Cloutier.

But one thing to remember, we aren't Anaheim, we can't afford to be sluggish out of the gate and win 26 of the next 30.

That is roster, and roster is on the GM.

If you don't have the horses, that is a GM thing, coaches don't make trades or signings, the coach has what the GM gives him.

 

 

haha.. you just worded it better than i did..  meaning if you're hurting on defense everybody needs to pitch in , in this case we were missing TJ and GIO was still MIA  for a few games. in his play anyway 

[DirtyDeeds]

The point of the .904 was to point out that it was clear that Ramo was the wrong scapegoat to demote.. Hiller was the obvious choice if you're not sending Ortio

 

so, youre adamant that our defense had major issues, insurmountable due to injuries etc.. but yet you see no correlation to that and the bad play of the goaltenders? other than we didnt bail out a bad defense?

 

 

THIS

 

keep it simple, dont play like you usually do when you dont have the horses to do it

 

again..coaching

Sure demote the goalie getting you wins despite all 3 having elbowingty stats. Sounds like a good strategy to me... NOT(BTW Ramos 1x  .904 game does not rate him as playing okay)

 

Demoting or keeping goalies was BT's decision not BH's. If you are going to point fingers point them at BT not BH on goalie demotions or being put through waivers. BT admitted it was his decision to not test Ortio to waivers early on, so he sat. BT also admitted that was the wrong decision.

 

The D however turned things around. It started as soon as Brodie returned(End of Oct).

 

The Goalies(Ramo) did not turn things around until December. If the D was as much a problem as you want to make them out to be then the goalies should have turned it around about the same time as his return, but they didn't. It was a good month and a bit before Ramo started to play better on December 8th. I suppose you could draw that line at Dec 1st when he got his 3 wins in a row.

[phoenix66]

Sure demote the goalie getting you wins despite all 3 having elbowingty stats. Sounds like a good strategy to me... NOT(BTW Ramos 1x  .904 game does not rate him as playing okay)

 

Demoting or keeping goalies was BT's decision not BH's. If you are going to point fingers point them at BT not BH on goalie demotions or being put through waivers. BT admitted it was his decision to not test Ortio to waivers early on, so he sat. BT also admitted that was the wrong decision.

 

The D however turned things around. It started as soon as Brodie returned(End of Oct).

 

The Goalies(Ramo) did not turn things around until December. If the D was as much a problem as you want to make them out to be then the goalies should have turned it around about the same time as his return, but they didn't. It was a good month and a bit before Ramo started to play better on December 8th. I suppose you could draw that line at Dec 1st when he got his 3 wins in a row.

 

 

it wasn't a .904 game, it was .904 over 2 games in the only 2 starts he got.. like i said before , your stats are a typo..  2 goals on 29 shots= 27/29= a .931 game

 

NO. PLAYER EV PP SH SAVES - SHOTS SV% PIM TOI 31 K. Ramo (L) 0-2-0 24 - 26 3 - 3 0 - 0 27 - 29 .931 0 59:13

 

and ya, if i had to choose i'd take the one losing with good stats over the one who got a couple wins with bad stats after just  6 games, just because the law of averages says that one will win more over 82 games .. oh look, did that happen ?

[kehatch]

I am really having trouble assigning too much blame to Treliving on last seasons goal tending.  

 

Going into camp with 3 goalies was a smart move.  Competition isn't a bad thing, especially when your dealing with a young and unproven player.  The issue was when they were a quarter of the way in and Hartley still hadn't made a decision between Ramo and Hiller.  In fact he went out of his way to not play Ortio.  Even after Ramo was waived Ortio didn't get a regular start.  It was one of the many signs that GM and coach were not on the same page.  Unless you expected Treliving to risk Ortio on waivers early then the three goalie monster is on the coach.  It wasn't like Ramo and Hiller were doing so well the coach couldn't justify sending either down.  

 

You can blame the GM for not bringing on a better starter last off season.  But we were coming off of a season where the goalies got us to the second round.  With Hiller having another year under contract, Ortio knocking at the door, and Gilles starting his first season of pro it made sense to sign Ramo to a 1-year deal rather then making a commitment of contract term and/or trade assets for a better goalie.  

 

This off season will be different.  We have no NHL ready goalies under contract, Ortio was not good last season, Gilles had season ending surgery after 7 games, and goal tending was a big part of our failed season.